Florida: Table Game Update

With "racinos" and similar non-Tribal gaming establishments all over the state offering "player-banked" table games like 3-card poker and pai-gow poker, the Florida Division of Pari-Mutual Wagering (DPMW) has seen fit to render an administrative order against Jacksonville's Best Bet poker-racing venue for offering those games. Here's a very comprehensive link to the story:

Florida Politics news report

DPMW directed Best Bet to cease offering player-banked games and levied a $4,500 fine on the racino. Other Florida racinos and poker rooms were put on notice that DPMW intends to enforce this order statewide, notwithstanding unresolved court litigation that continues to this day.

It's hard to tell the immediate effect the DPMW order is having "on the ground" in the affected properties. But, the Internet site for Best Bet indicates it continues to offer player-banked card games, as does the poker room nearest me in Gretna, Florida. Maybe the $4,500 fine doesn't scare properties that each earn about $1 million a month from the affected games.

Anyhow, the gantlet has been thrown down by DPMW, and fireworks are sure to follow as the effect of this administrative order ripples through Florida's non-Tribal gaming facilities.

Quote: LuckyPhow

games like 3-card poker and pai-gow poker

Not these games, but poker games with a "designated player"

Quote:

Designated-player games are a hybrid, where the bank is supposed to revolve among the players.

But in Jacksonville, each designated player is “required to bring a minimum of $30,000 to each table, and takes no active role in the game

apparently especially irking:

Quote:

card rooms were flouting state law by allowing third-party companies to buy their way into the games, using a worker to act as a virtual bank

I believe all those Great Grand Father'd poker clubs in Washington State were player banked in that the dealer had to put a stack of chips in front of each player's bet: so in 21 that dealer would stack enough to pay off a blackjack in front of each player's bet. The House did not bet, but the "dealer" was often an employee of a banking syndicate.

Same as in California where actors would get a gig as a dealer in the Bicycle Club: the club took its rake, the real money was in Banking the games.

I've been the the Jax Best Bet a few times since they started spreading their "table games." These games are very popular. I have taken a look at them while waiting for a poker seat to open up. However, there never seemed to be any open seats at those games, either.

There is a "player" at the third base spot with a rack full of chips. They pay/collect like a dealer would. Like Lucky said, I'm not sure a $4,500 fine is much of a deterrent.

On a related front, there is a Duval County referendum on the ballot next week to allow slots at Best Bet Jax. The referendum doesn't say specifically that it's for Best Bet Jax, of course, but it is to allow slots "only in parimutuels." (There is only one such establishment in Duval County -- Best Bet.)

There's a PAC called "Families for Happy Kids" or some such nonsense (no doubt a front for Best Bet) running ads in favor of the referendum. Their ads claim that the addition of a couple hundred slot machines will result in 2,000 more jobs for the area. Seriously? I don't really care one way or another about adding slot machines, but please don't insult my intelligence. Even if you include all the new payday loan, debt collection, pawn shop, divorce attorney, and law enforcement jobs this will add, I still can't fathom how they get to 2,000.

I have not heard any opposition to the referendum, so it will probably pass.

Curiosity got the best of me. So, I drove the hour it takes to visit the Gretna poker room so I could check whether or not it was playing its "player-banked" versions of 3-Card poker and Pai-Gow poker. Yup, it was business as usual.

Florida Division of Pari-Mutual Wagering administrative cease-play order? What cease-play order?

If you actually read the judges order, the issues he had was with the games not being operated as described to the state. With that fixed and those specific issues addressed, there would be no reason to shut anything down. It's like a health inspector telling you to clean up under the fridge.

Quote: Keeperofcards

If you actually read the judges order, the issues he had was with the games not being operated as described to the state. With that fixed and those specific issues addressed, there would be no reason to shut anything down. It's like a health inspector telling you to clean up under the fridge.

Ummm... maybe I'm missing something here. I think the "issues addressed" are far more fundamental than "clean up under the fridge." IMHO, the judge stabbed a dagger deep into the very bowels of the "designated player" games and how they are played when she (the judge was a woman) concluded the following:

Quote: Recommended Order: Case 16-1009

“Jacksonville’s operation of designated-player games is no more than a systematic banking of games in the cardroom. The corporate application requirements, combined with the dual-rake structure, are disincentives to the rotation of the button and participation in the game by truly interested designated players. The result is game play in which employees from an outside corporate designated player sit either idly at racks of chips, or, alternately, organize the chips for the convenience of the dealer in taking the rake and place chips into the racks according to denomination.” [Paragraph 105]

Note on "dual-rake": With more than one "designated player" at the table, the house rake is 500 percent the rake amount assessed if there is only one designated player at the table.

It also seems to me your comment about the "games not being operated as described" also glosses over some important issues. The Recommended Order summarizes how the various games are "supposed" to be played, according to game rules provided by the card room to the State.

For example, in Pai-Gow Poker must the Designated Player arrange his/her hand according to some "House Way"? Nope. But, as played, there is a "House Way" and the Dealer does, in fact, set the cards in the Designated Player hand as the "House Way" requires. The Designated Player cannot intervene, for example, by saying, "No, split the pairs," when the "House Way" requires they not be split.

The Recommended Order goes through all the "player-banked" games Best-Bet offered, none (apparently) played as promised by the card room.

So, I remain amazed that the card rooms continue to offer player-banked games. But, perhaps they agree with you that a few minor adjustments fix these problems. Stay tuned. Film at eleven, don'cher know?

Well, the original post in this thread commented about the legality of player-banked games in Florida poker rooms. Currently, the Florida Supreme Court is trying to sort this out. (Film at eleven...)

Elsewhere, the State of Florida lost a big one to the Seminole Tribe when a state circuit court judge ruled that the state had violated provisions of its compact with the tribe by allowing others to offer banked card games. Clearly, Florida poker rooms now offer player-banked card games, with the result that the Seminole Tribe can now offer its own banked card games for the remainder of its 20-year compact with the state.

But, in trying to sort this out, there was much ado about differences between "player-banked" and "house-banked" card games. The judge decided it made no difference for purposes of the compact. But, he carried it a step further, stating (Final Opinion, p.20):

Quote:

I assume without deciding that, as suggested by these authorities, the Department's rule authorizing player-banked games ... is invalid.

Now Gretna (and the other poker rooms) want the judge to delete that (and any similar) reference. They don't want some knee-jerk legal precedent that might affect their ongoing case. As the story (below) notes, if they had known the judge was going (to assume) to rule on the legality of the administrative rule authorizing card rooms to offer player-banked games, they would have wanted to participate. As it is, they contend, they had no opportunity to have their day in (this) court, because the issue before the court was not the legality of banked games, but whether allowing them affected the compact.

Attorneys for the Seminole Tribe want no part of this. Here's a very good write up of the latest legal wrangling:

Seminole Tribe Not Happy In Gambling Dispute

Leave it to Florida to wrestle with such important issues as these, right?

Update on Pai Gow poker at the Derby Lane poker room in St Pete FL
This is one of the best Pai Gow games in the country
No commission, minimum bet just 5 bucks all day. Even weekends, they never raise the minimum
No BS EZ Pai Gow rules
The house just has a very slight edge due to winning ties
This game was just Pai Gow Poker, no fortune bet
Well I heard they now allow the fortune bet.
I went and checked it out
minimum 5 bucks on the fortune bet

weird
allow a low 5 bucks for pai gow
but require a high 5 bucks for fortune :-(

Quote: terapined

weird
allow a low 5 bucks for pai gow
but require a high 5 bucks for fortune :-(

Makes up for that small base game edge doesn't it ;-)

Quote: mrsuit31

Makes up for that small base game edge doesn't it ;-)

It does make up for the tiny edge on the base game
I love pai gow poker.
Its interesting due to setting my own hands so a little thinking involved.
I also like the fortune bet. Its terrible odds but just a buck, why not for the added fun.
At 5 bucks, no way. Its not unusual to go say 10 hands without hitting a fortune. That's down 50, too much for a cheap low roller like me on a game I am supposed to lose slowly, not down a lot quickly.

Quote: terapined

It does make up for the tiny edge on the base game
I love pai gow poker.
Its interesting due to setting my own hands so a little thinking involved.
I also like the fortune bet. Its terrible odds but just a buck, why not for the added fun.
At 5 bucks, no way. Its not unusual to go say 10 hands without hitting a fortune. That's down 50, too much for a cheap low roller like me on a game I am supposed to lose slowly, not down a lot quickly.

I like it also. I’m a sucker tho, always have at least $5 on the dragon. I like all seven card bonus bets, Dragon and UTH Trips bet included...

Quote: terapined

Update on Pai Gow poker at the Derby Lane poker room in St Pete FL
This is one of the best Pai Gow games in the country
No commission, minimum bet just 5 bucks all day. Even weekends, they never raise the minimum
No BS EZ Pai Gow rules
The house just has a very slight edge due to winning ties
This game was just Pai Gow Poker, no fortune bet
Well I heard they now allow the fortune bet.
I went and checked it out
minimum 5 bucks on the fortune bet

weird
allow a low 5 bucks for pai gow
but require a high 5 bucks for fortune :-(

The Jacksonville rooms are advertising the same $5 Fortune side bet. I have not been there since they added it. Actually I haven't sat down at the Pai Gow Poker table there at all, but I did inquire, and the dealers said it is no-commission, and there is no "EZ-" qualifier.

I found this hard to believe, since it would hardly be profitable for the "syndicate." Assuming 20 HPH, 6 spots @ $5, and the 1.3% edge on no-commission, the "syndicate" ends up making $7.80 an hour. That wouldn't even cover minimum wage for the "designated player," let alone whatever vig they pay to the house.

I'm guessing the Fortune bet will put it into the black.

I'm with you, Terapined, when/if I do play, I will probably forgo the $5 Fortune bet.

I find Florida designated-player games, rules, and drama with the local card rooms fascinating. Moved to Tampa about a year ago and was surprised to find UTH, 3CP, Pai Gow, etc in card rooms outside of the Seminole casino monopoly.

I played UTH at Derby Lane recently and took note of their Trips and Blind paytables. On Blind, the paytable is standard except they pay 30:1 for straight flush and 2:1 for flush. By my math and the Wizard's analysis tables, the increase in flush payout more than makes up for the decrease in straight flush payout. It brings the house edge of the base game down to 1.43% of ante (0.34% EoR), which is great.

Trips is another story. As has been mentioned by others, Trips pays out like the Blind (only pays when you beat the dealer) due to state law. They do have increased Trips payouts to account for this, but I'm not sure exactly what the house edge is. I only know that if Trips payout rules were like casinos, the house edge would be -6.84%. Their paytable is 100-50-40-10-8-4-3.

So like Pai Gow there, the base game is a great deal and the side bets are not. Not that they're a great deal in casinos anyway.

Quote: Caiman

I find Florida designated-player games, rules, and drama with the local card rooms fascinating. Moved to Tampa about a year ago and was surprised to find UTH, 3CP, Pai Gow, etc in card rooms outside of the Seminole casino monopoly.

So like Pai Gow there, the base game is a great deal and the side bets are not. Not that they're a great deal in casinos anyway.

Yup
The base game Pai Gow poker is one of the best gambling deals in the country regarding a low house edge
Standard rules but no commission so only house edge is ties :-) Just a 5 buck min
They make up for it with the fortune bet which is a terrible bet and is also 5 buck min. (most casinos this is a 1 buck min bet)

Whats kind of weird is Tampa Bay Downs does not offer Pai Gow Poker
They have a poker room of course but also UTH and 3CP but no Pai Gow

TB Downs is closer to me, but yeah the table games area is much smaller to match the smaller room. Their UTH Blind and Trips paytables are also worse; especially Trips. I imagine Trips there has to have a 20%+ edge.

Been using PokerAtlas to see what's at each card room and which tables are open. Here's what each of the area rooms offers as of today:

Derby Lane:
-High Card Flush
-1 Card Poker
-3 Card Poker
-Ultimate Texas Hold'em
-Fortune Pai Gow
-Crazy 4 Poker

The Silks (Tampa Bay Downs):
-3 Card Poker
-Ultimate Texas Hold'em

TGT:
-Ultimate Texas Hold'em
-Fortune Pai Gow
-Crazy 4 Poker

One Eyed Jacks:
-3 Card Poker
-Ultimate Texas Hold'em
-Chase the Flush

Naples Fort Myers:
-3 Card Poker
-Ultimate Texas Hold'em
-Chase the Flush
-Pai Gow Poker

Do these no-commission Pai Gow Poker games NOT allow the player to bank?

Dog Hand