qwertydgaf
qwertydgaf
Joined: Apr 16, 2015
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April 16th, 2015 at 8:10:33 PM permalink
I am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
beachbumbabs
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April 16th, 2015 at 8:32:04 PM permalink
Quote: qwertydgaf

I am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?



I would ask at the rewards center/player's club. They should tell you (they tell me when I ask in a new state/jurisdiction). It's usually not up to the casino; it's up to the state or other regulatory authority's compact with the state. This is a good article on how it works in general; it's a federal law that governs the terms of what the NA casinos are allowed to offer and what the states have to let them do, but it's still negotiated state by state. The rule of thumb is, if a class of gaming is allowed anywhere in the state for any purpose, the NA casinos can offer the same class of games. Class II are player-banked, with the casino taking some kind of rake. Class III allows casinos to offer house-banked games. That's just a very simple explanation, but the Class is considered public information, so they should tell you if you ask.

Edit: This is a gov't-issued blank compact application that defines and includes Class I, II, and III gaming for the state of AZ, so I guess it depends on what level the tribe wants to offer/qualify for there.

teddys did a pretty good review on Phoenix-area casinos, and specifically mentioned that they can offer Class II and Class III gaming (though no true craps or roulette). Doesn't mean the Talking Stick doesn't have a mix of II and III slots, but it's a start to know that much.

It's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 16th, 2015 at 9:00:33 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

It's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).



I agree. A class II slot should have a little bingo card in the corner of the screen. Often there is a button that says "daub" instead of "spin." If you have any doubt, it is probably class III.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Dieter
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April 16th, 2015 at 9:08:10 PM permalink
Quote: qwertydgaf

What do i look for?



Does the "play" button say "play", or "play/daub"?

If you scroll through all (and I do mean ALL) the help and paytable displays, does it list a bingo paytable?

Does the front of the place mention that it's a "Class II gaming facility"?

Does the machine have a display of a bingo card on it? (Sometimes - particularly on the "keno" machines, it's mostly hidden - I've seen it on the topmost video screen, up by the slot-topper blinking light sign)

Is there a sticker on the machine that says (something like) "Prizes awarded based on bingo play"?

... so then, it might be Class III.

... And ask at the player's club booth if they have any Class II machines, and how you'd tell the difference.


I've played both Class III and Class II machines; they're both vaguely similar in that you stick money in, whack the button, and maybe get some money back. My subjective observations say that Class II behaves quite differently as the number of other players changes; sometimes better, sometimes not.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Mission146
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April 16th, 2015 at 9:49:45 PM permalink
https://gaming.az.gov/law-compacts/tribal-state-compacts

Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian
Community
Casino Arizona & Talking Stick Resort

https://gaming.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/2014%20Annual%20Report%20FINAL.pdf

Page 24 indicates that the casinos have operated Class III gaming since 1993, when the first compact went into effect. All casinos wishing to offer Class III Gaming must have a compact with the State of Arizona, and the Casino Nevada and Talking Stick Resort is run by the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community, who have such a compact.

There are sixteen tribes with casinos and six tribes that do not have casinos, but have slot machine rights that can be leased to other tribes, only the Hopi tribe does not have a compact.

In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.

Moreover, State of Arizona law, pursuant to the compacts, dictates minimum theoretical payouts for slot machines at 80%, video poker at 83% and keno at 75%. (See Link 1)

Although BBB's link does allow for both Class II and Class III machines, I've called the casino and they've not called back, yet. I'll try again tomorrow.
Vultures can't be choosers.
petroglyph
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April 16th, 2015 at 10:30:43 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.

Maybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?

Could be Zcore knows something about this?

Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.
odiousgambit
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April 17th, 2015 at 2:58:24 AM permalink
Quote: qwertydgaf

l i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random!



that exclamation point suggests the article would have you believe class 2 is better. That is the opposite of the usual opinion, so I would take what it says with a grain of salt.

I suppose it is possible there are times, depending on number of players, when class II treats you as well or even better. The one thing you can say for sure is that it is idiotic to think you are playing a game of skill like video poker only to realize you are playing on a class II. Players dislike that for sure.

I wouldn't mind seeing that article if it is a link you can post.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
travisl
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April 17th, 2015 at 9:03:59 AM permalink
In Washington State, all slot-like machines are Class II, but may be based on bingo (where the button says "daub" and a bingo board appears in the corner of the screen) or on pull tabs (which are deceptively indistinguishable from real slot machines).
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 17th, 2015 at 10:07:31 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Maybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?

Could be Zcore knows something about this?

Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.



As far as I know every slot in Casino Arizona is Class III. Same as at my Casino. The Compact does allow for some minimal use of Class II slots, but I don't know of any Tribe that is using them.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
bigfoot66
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April 17th, 2015 at 10:13:42 AM permalink
Quote: qwertydgaf

I am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?



If you are looking for a better gamble and would like to get comps I would highly recommend you keep driving east of Talking Stick to Fort Mcdowell, the games are much looser and they are far more generous with comps.
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