A Tale of the Hustling Wars
Prior to the opening of Resorts World, Empire had very little hustling within its walls. There simply were few opportunities. All the Video Poker machines are class II and work more like slot machines. There are no card counters in NYC! The reason for this is simple, there is no blackjack in NYC. Blackjack here is illegal!
In fact, not only is blackjack illegal, but so are casinos(a resolution to finally build casinos was passed and three are in the initial stages but they will be the first casinos in NYS). You see, Resorts World and Empire City casinos are NOT casinos!
HUH?
This is despite the fact the word CASINO boldly and brightly adorns the façade of every entry point into these facilities. Aside from complete false advertising or at least the world's most ridiculous method of admitting something you are when you are not, the fact is these gambling dens are under NYS law not casinos.
It is important to understand just what NYS law dictated until the recent referendum was passed regarding gambling. Laws were passed to prohibit gambling in NYS decades ago. Overturning these laws took several years but in the meantime, purveyors of gambling couldn't wait to tap the market. So Empire and then Resorts World were opened. But wait, what about the law?
Well, NYS has had their lottery system for decades so gambling laws were fashioned to keep those while preventing traditional casinos. Under NYS law, no game can be operated where human hands come into contact with the game itself. A dealer cannot spin the ball at roulette, a player cannot throw the dice at Craps, neither player nor dealer can touch the cards at Blackjack or at Baccarat. This seemed to eliminate any chance of live gambling in NYS when these laws were formulated. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee the emergence of automation. Resorts World and Empire City simply installed completely electronic games of roulette and Craps and Baccarat. No human hands touch the game! The letter of the law is upheld even if the spirit is not!
There are other law issues as well. NYS lawmakers wanted to define gambling that was legal versus illegal. So, a legal form of gambling was their lottery system already in place. Lottery was defined as any game which utilizes a ticket or voucher and where the outcome is determined for multiple parties or players simultaneously.
Since Roulette and Craps and other casino games utilized chips when these were written, that seemed to spell the death knell for them. Once again, they failed to foresee how human ingenuity and greed can circumvent anything. NYS state has no gaming chips in their casinos since that is illegal. Instead, the casinos all use vouchers which are legally issued by the State Lottery Commission. Their logo is on all of them. Vouchers for cashing in and out, vouchers for distribution of free-play, etc. After all, vouchers are an established form of lottery. And what about Roulette and Craps and Baccarat? Well, those games are all where the outcome is determined simultaneously for multiple people. Unfortunately, Blackjack is not. Blackjack, each person has a different outcome determined for each individual player. Once again, Blackjack is illegal.
But so are casinos. Hence, Resorts World and Yonkers are officially, not Casinos. They are Video Lottery Facilities. It says so on every voucher that is printed, it is said so on the NYS lottery website and it is even stated by employees. Apparently, the signs on the front of the building that say casino are simply lying.
All this is important to understand why there was not much hustling going on in Empire Casino. Their promotions were limited to prizes for a car or monthly free-play offers based on your ratings. But then, Resorts World opened and not only became their primary NYC competition, they actually offered great incentives.
Several times a month, Resorts World offered the chance to have same day free-play simply for earning points on your players card. Generally, it was earn ten points and you would earn ten dollars in free-play. Neither of these two casinos that are not casinos had a hotel or shopping center attached so in lieu of any real comps to hand out, free-play was the only item of substance to offer.
Empire resisted handing out same-day earned free-play but they finally realized they were losing the battle to Resorts World by being so stubborn. People were flocking to Resorts for the opportunity there. And so, Empire started having their earned free-play days as well. And business started building up again.
And all of this preamble and history brings us to the hustlers. Because, finally, there was a golden opportunity for hustlers to emerge.
To be continued
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_kj-QbxILc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRRL6Y-jds
Quote: FroggerCan you elaborate?
LOL, you know I was so immersed in getting something prepped for a film festival, I completely forgot about this thread. Yeah, I will get the second part up in the next few days.
Quote: coilmanHow could you mention EMPIRE and Yonkers and not mention THE MANAGER? Free entertainment at the races
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_kj-QbxILc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRRL6Y-jds
Never saw this guy and thank god I didn't. Ewww, I certainly would not have included him in a tale of the hustling wars. I refer to hustling at casino gambling not hustling for change in front of the casino, lol.
Resorts World casino introduced one day of earning free play for points in February of 2012 - Valentines Day was earn 14 points and receive 14 dollars in free-play. Once you had earned those points, all you had to do was walk to the kiosk and print out the free-play voucher which would show up in your account.
Nothing was offered in March but the success of that one day ushered in weekly offers in April. And almost every month from then on offered anywhere from four to fourteen days of free-play for points earning.
Empire Casino was feeling the heat. They had no such offers at the time and business was clearly dropping. At the least, they saw they had to compete so they began adding free-play for points on a weekly basis at their casino as well.
It didn't take a rocket scientist to predict that husbands would bring their wives cards as well. After all, if you are earning free-play and already have your offer, why not get a second offer? Just flip your card out and flip in your wives card. Hell, Half the population at the casino was using a spouse or parent or siblings card.
Enter the card flippers!
Teams of hustlers, many from the Asian population but others as well began using multiple players cards to obtain their additional free-play offers. And if you've been wondering what was so important about the information in the first part of this tale of the hustling wars, it was to show just how much over a barrel the casinos were being held by the hustlers.
Remember, there are no live dealers or live games in any NYC casinos. Just electronic Baccarat and Craps, Sic Bo and Roullette. All perfectly suited oppositional games for earning points with no live supervision.
Swarms of hustlers hit the Craps and Baccarat tables, players gambling on opposite sides. These machines gave points for every dollar wagered. So Craps was the biggest target. Bet $30 on pass vs. $30 on Don't pass. Take $1 protection on the 12. Make the point, take max odds and you've earned the points you need for free-play. Combined, that's $20 in free-play for the cost of a buck.
Entire hustling teams would swarm into the casino at 8Am or 10Am opening to hit the tables. Legit players couldn't even get a seat. These hustlers were using ten, twenty, fifty, even a hundred cards. They became known as the card flippers because they couldn't risk losing their seat. Even though there are several tables and probably over a hundred seats, when you are competing for space against the other hustlers plus the legit players and with so many cards to turn around, you had to stay glued to the seat. So, they would brazenly stay seated and flip one card out for the other. Many times in full view of the cameras which apparently were not watching or couldn't tell the husbands using one of their wives cards from the card flipping teams.
Worst case which I heard was at Empire was a card flipper caught with 700 players cards.
Another woman had over fifty legit cards all in her own name! She had one of those difficult Asian names and she purposefully spelled it phonetically fifty different ways. Ex. Caio, Show, Xaio, Sho, Cho, Schow, Shaw, etc. and that was just her first name!
They led her out in handcuffs - not for multiple players cards but for ID fraud!
But most of the card flippers were legitimately using cards from their family and friends.
Yonkers needed to put a stop to it. First thing they did was to disallow printing of the free-play from the kiosks! Now you had to show ID at the desk to a live representative.
That didn't last too long. With an average of ten thousand players at any given time on a crowded day, having ten thousand people waiting on line for ID to be checked was ridiculous. After two weeks of players bitching that they were waiting up to two hours to get their ten bucks in free-play, Empire re-instated the Kiosks.
Next they started chasing the actual players down. And they caught and banned quite a few. This caused a new set of problems.
First, the banned patrons didn't always hand over all their cards. The very next day, they would have some confederate back in using whatever cards had not been confiscated. With one hundred cards, we're talking a thousand dollars in free-play for approximately one hundred dollars.
Secondly, it wasn't long before the casino got hit with a lawsuit by at least one client for imprisonment. After all, the police were never called and Empire (and Resorts World, as well,) are still in growing pains. They have not been sued yet by the likes of someone comparable to Bob Nersessian. If you have not broken any laws (and using another persons players card with their permission breaks no laws) then you can't imprison someone even if its to eventually bar that person.
Empire was slowly being sliced to death by a thousand razor cuts!
So, they finally did the unthinkable. With hundreds of electronic table games, they announced that none of those games were going to earn points anymore. Screw the thousands of legit players.
Sure there are other casinos that disallow credit for gambling at their electronic offerings however those casinos give their players the option of gambling for ratings at their live offerings of the same game. At this time in Yonkers at Empire Casino, there is no rating system for points at any Roulette, Craps, Baccarat or Sic Bo table games anywhere on the facility.
And of course, this measure has worked. The card flipping teams are gone. But has the casino also turned away their legit players who are discovering you get no comps for any table games? Only time will tell.
And that is the current status of this tale of the Hustling Wars.
Quote: darkozAbout fifteen minutes from NYC lies a casino called Empire City but which many residents simply refer to as Yonkers! It is connected to the Yonkers Raceway complete with viewing stand for the horses. It opened a few years prior to Aqueduct's Resorts World Casino but that one gets touted as NYC's first casino because that one is actually inside city limits.
Prior to the opening of Resorts World, Empire had very little hustling within its walls. There simply were few opportunities. All the Video Poker machines are class II and work more like slot machines. There are no card counters in NYC! The reason for this is simple, there is no blackjack in NYC. Blackjack here is illegal!
In fact, not only is blackjack illegal, but so are casinos(a resolution to finally build casinos was passed and three are in the initial stages but they will be the first casinos in NYS). You see, Resorts World and Empire City casinos are NOT casinos!
HUH? ............................................
To be continued
Anything about Resort/Genting would trigger a response from me.
I would not pay too much attention whether it is a casino or not. Is it not commonly referred to as Racino.
It is a class 2 license and no human hand can be used.
Credit must go to Resort because at the bidding time for the Aqueduct racino nobody like a major casino operator would touch it.
The only other bidder offered $100M with conditions to the state that is laughable. Resort offered $300M up front without any conditions.
Resort did wonders and became the highest revenue gaming outlet in the US.
That brings me to question whether the class 3 traditional casino is an outdated model in the US. Most casinos in the US are basically slot parlours. Get about 75% of the revenue from slots. BJ on other games don't make much money, cost a lot to operate and caters to the recreational player or CC. The only think positive I can say about these table games is that they create a buss and critical mass for the casinos.
The US needs to catch up with the rest of the world and in particular Asia. These e-table games for baccarat and roulette have been in use in Asia for many years now. These are for the hard core gamblers and where the real money is made. Like Adelson said about these machines " they are an unbelievable cash cow. You get 60 rounds per hour on these roulette e-table and 8 rounds on the old roulette table with limited player capacity".
Like to hear part 2 of your posting.
We are both posting at the same tme. But you beat me to it by 20 mins.
But sorry I don't understand what you are saying about "Hustling Wars".
Every time a gambler bet on $100 on Bac. the casino earn or win $1.40 and $2.78 on single zero Roulette. The casino cannot get enough players or players to bet $Zillions.
I know Resort here has your photo on your players card. And their surveillance is very good. Playing with somebody else card is a no-no in any casino. I believe it has something to do with Comps.
It happen to me the one time I did this. I told my wife to play the terminal for me as I want to go for a walk/ toilet. I told her just hit the repeat button every round. When I came back 10 mins. later there were 3 or 4 men in suites standing around her and asking her where is Mr. ....
The other thing I find puzzling about your posting is getting free play. You cash out what you have on your card. I don't think anybody here or in the US would play just for free play credits that you are talking about.
Quote: Deck007darkoz
We are both posting at the same tme. But you beat me to it by 20 mins.
But sorry I don't understand what you are saying about "Hustling Wars".
Every time a gambler bet on $100 on Bac. the casino earn or win $1.40 and $2.78 on single zero Roulette. The casino cannot get enough players or players to bet $Zillions.
I know Resort here has your photo on your players card. And their surveillance is very good. Playing with somebody else card is a no-no in any casino. I believe it has something to do with Comps.
It happen to me the one time I did this. I told my wife to play the terminal for me as I want to go for a walk/ toilet. I told her just hit the repeat button every round. When I came back 10 mins. later there were 3 or 4 men in suites standing around her and asking her where is Mr. ....
The other thing I find puzzling about your posting is getting free play. You cash out what you have on your card. I don't think anybody here or in the US would play just for free play credits that you are talking about.
Resorts World only has photos on higher level cards. The new member cards which are red have no photos.
Thinking that the casino "earns" $1.40 or $2.78 on every spin is based on theoretical return. IF two players each make one bet and lose only one dollar, then receive ten dollars in free-play, trust me that is an advantage. Especially if you repeat it ad infinitum with dozens of cards.
The suits at Resorts World and Empire clamped down on you and your wife BECAUSE of the hustling war. Trust me, there were hundreds of thousands of dollars lost to the hustlers from the point special.
I do differ with your analysis that the surveillance is very good at Resorts. They were sloppy and not on the ball for almost a year and a half. I, myself, was a card flipper at one time with 14 player's cards and they didn't catch me for almost two years.
And the link: http://www.empirecitycasino.com/Promotions/#Great8s
Great 8s
February 16, 23
March 2, 9, 16
Empire Club Members earn 8 Empire Points playing any slot machine to receive $8 Free Play. Plus receive 8x points on Baccarat games and enjoy specially priced food and beverages!
$8 drink specials in the Entertainment Lounge
$8 frozen cocktails at Dan Rooney's
$8 food specials in the Food Court
One Free Play offer per Empire Club Member per promotional day. Must be 21 years of age or older to purchase or consume alcoholic beverages.
Click here for official rules
5 for 5 Tuesdays 5 For 5 Tuesdays
February 17, 24
March 3, 10
11:00 AM - 7:00 PM
Empire Club Members earn 5 Empire Points on Tuesdays to receive $5 free play.
Quote: darkozResorts World only has photos on higher level cards. The new member cards which are red have no photos.
Thinking that the casino "earns" $1.40 or $2.78 on every spin is based on theoretical return. IF two players each make one bet and lose only one dollar, then receive ten dollars in free-play, trust me that is an advantage. Especially if you repeat it ad infinitum with dozens of cards.
The suits at Resorts World and Empire clamped down on you and your wife BECAUSE of the hustling war. Trust me, there were hundreds of thousands of dollars lost to the hustlers from the point special.
I do differ with your analysis that the surveillance is very good at Resorts. They were sloppy and not on the ball for almost a year and a half. I, myself, was a card flipper at one time with 14 player's cards and they didn't catch me for almost two years.
Thinking that the casino "earns" $1.40 or $2.78 on every spin is based on theoretical return. IF two players each make one bet and lose only one dollar, then receive ten dollars in free-play, trust me that is an advantage......... IPPOSIBLE
Resort is never that generous and they would actually lose money like this.
Quote: Deck007Thinking that the casino "earns" $1.40 or $2.78 on every spin is based on theoretical return. IF two players each make one bet and lose only one dollar, then receive ten dollars in free-play, trust me that is an advantage......... IPPOSIBLE
Resort is never that generous and they would actually lose money like this.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.
Here is the link to their current offer. 50 points for $25 dollars in freeplay.
Betting opposite someone at the Craps table, I could earn $50 free-play for five bucks. For just five bucks, minus any single outcome wagers (so perhaps ten bucks at most) I would do a thousand dollars in wagers including the max odds.
Trust me, earning 50 points is easy.
http://www.rwnewyork.com/images/Early_Bird_February_2015_Rule.pdf
If you can't see it, I can't break it down any more than I have. BUT MOST DEFINITELY NOT IMPOSSIBLE. The card flippers were laughing their way to the bank.
Quote: darkozHere are the current Empire specials.
And the link: http://www.empirecitycasino.com/Promotions/#Great8s
Great 8s
February 16, 23
March 2, 9, 16
Empire Club Members earn 8 Empire Points playing any slot machine to receive $8 Free Play. Plus receive 8x points on Baccarat games and enjoy specially priced food and beverages!
$8 drink specials in the Entertainment Lounge
$8 frozen cocktails at Dan Rooney's
$8 food specials in the Food Court
One Free Play offer per Empire Club Member per promotional day. Must be 21 years of age or older to purchase or consume alcoholic beverages.
Click here for official rules
5 for 5 Tuesdays 5 For 5 Tuesdays
February 17, 24
March 3, 10
11:00 AM - 7:00 PM
Empire Club Members earn 5 Empire Points on Tuesdays to receive $5 free play.
Free play for slot is very common in the US or elsewhere.
Quote: darkozARE YOU KIDDING ME.
Here is the link to their current offer. 50 points for $25 dollars in freeplay.
Betting opposite someone at the Craps table, I could earn $50 free-play for five bucks. For just five bucks, minus any single outcome wagers (so perhaps ten bucks at most) I would do a thousand dollars in wagers including the max odds.
Trust me, earning 50 points is easy.
http://www.rwnewyork.com/images/Early_Bird_February_2015_Rule.pdf
If you can't see it, I can't break it down any more than I have. BUT MOST DEFINITELY NOT IMPOSSIBLE. The card flippers were laughing their way to the bank.
Ah! 50 points for $25 dollars in freeplay. Good Luck. It is not for me.
Quote: darkoz
I do differ with your analysis that the surveillance is very good at Resorts. They were sloppy and not on the ball for almost a year and a half. I, myself, was a card flipper at one time with 14 player's cards and they didn't catch me for almost two years.
So what happened? Did you get arrested and spend time in jail?
Quote: Deck007Ah! 50 points for $25 dollars in freeplay. Good Luck. It is not for me.
Interesting why you would not be interested in an easy AP maneuver. Even just you and your wife could get fifty in free play for a few dollars and they couldn't say anything.
Those players doing multiple cards were really taking them.
When I was doing it, I was making about $200 bucks a day (only staying there for about 90 minutes each day). Like I said, I had about 14 cards. It depended on the specials.
Quote: darkozInteresting why you would not be interested in an easy AP maneuver. Even just you and your wife could get fifty in free play for a few dollars and they couldn't say anything.
Those players doing multiple cards were really taking them.
When I was doing it, I was making about $200 bucks a day (only staying there for about 90 minutes each day). Like I said, I had about 14 cards. It depended on the specials.
Look this subject should be discuss as a Comp matter. If Resort let you get away with it, it is because they decide to let you get away with it.
There are casinos all over the US where you sign up and play some slots and you get invited for free stay and free slot play. It is known in the business as loss-leader. Then there is the match play coupon and $0.99 steak dinner. This subject is and has been discussed everywhere in the US
Resort did not become a $20B enterprise just by luck. And their Aqueduct Racino did not become number 1 by spending money foolishly.
Quote: FroggerSo what happened? Did you get arrested and spend time in jail?
LOL, no. I did nothing illegal.
They surrounded me and refused to let me leave. Insisted I go with them to the back room. Held me there for an hour. No police called although they supposedly ran a warrant check on me. That's what they said.
I have no warrants so they let me go.
Actually they broke the law by imprisoning me.
I now have a lawsuit for imprisonment. Bob Nersessian is my attorney. The case is being handled by a NY attorney who has partnered with him to handle the cases he does not have the luxury of travelling too here in NYS.
Quote: darkozLOL, no. I did nothing illegal.
They surrounded me and refused to let me leave. Insisted I go with them to the back room. Held me there for an hour. No police called although they supposedly ran a warrant check on me. That's what they said.
I have no warrants so they let me go.
Actually they broke the law by imprisoning me.
I now have a lawsuit for imprisonment. Bob Nersessian is my attorney. The case is being handled by a NY attorney who has partnered with him to handle the cases he does not have the luxury of travelling too here in NYS.
See they did catch up with you. Game over for you I would say. So Resort is on top of this game. And not rip off by players.
Now you are going to spend big $$$$ on lawyers.
Cannot even complain to the gaming commission. This will be treated as a civil court complain.
Quote: Deck007See they did catch up with you. Game over for you I would say. So Resort is on top of this game. And not rip off by players.
Now you are going to spend big $$$$ on lawyers. Cannot even complain to the gaming commission. This will be treated as a civil complain.
U think? When I was finished my team made enough money to purchase a car, pay my rent for almost a year, took my family to Disney World for two weeks and a whole lot of other stuff.
And my attorney is working pro bono so I would hardly state that Resorts got the best of it.
And If I wanted to I can go back into Resorts in disguise although at this time, I choose not to do that. I am concentrating on other casinos where I have similar hustles that btw still pay for my vacations, rent, etc. I live my life successfully thanks to the casinos.
Quote: darkozU think? When I was finished my team made enough money to purchase a car, pay my rent for almost a year, took my family to Disney World for two weeks and a whole lot of other stuff.
And my attorney is working pro bono so I would hardly state that Resorts got the best of it.
And If I wanted to I can go back into Resorts in disguise although at this time, I choose not to do that. I am concentrating on other casinos where I have similar hustles that btw still pay for my vacations, rent, etc. I live my life successfully thanks to the casinos.
Your attorney working pro bono. He is a relative or friend or just took pity on you.
Quote: Deck007Your attorney working pro bono. He is a relative or friend or just took pity on you.
Yes, Bob Nersessian took pity on me, lol.
Quote: darkozU think? When I was finished my team made enough money to purchase a car, pay my rent for almost a year, took my family to Disney World for two weeks and a whole lot of other stuff.
And my attorney is working pro bono so I would hardly state that Resorts got the best of it.
And If I wanted to I can go back into Resorts in disguise although at this time, I choose not to do that. I am concentrating on other casinos where I have similar hustles that btw still pay for my vacations, rent, etc. I live my life successfully thanks to the casinos.
You mean your attorney is working on contingency.
There's no way he's doing this and not taking a cut of what you get from resorts world if you win.
Quote: sc15You mean your attorney is working on contingency.
There's no way he's doing this and not taking a cut of what you get from resorts world if you win.
Yes, you are correct. Just looked it up. I've always use the other term. My bad.
He is definitely working on contingency, not pro bono.
Quote: darkozYes, you are correct. Just looked it up. I've always use the other term. My bad.
He is definitely working on contingency, not pro bono.
Yeah Bob working "pro bono" would be one of the bigger AP moves of all time...haha
Quote: tringlomaneYeah Bob working "pro bono" would be one of the bigger AP moves of all time...haha
Who knows maybe I will figure it out as an AP.
Just joking. Bob's a good guy.
I've been using the pro bono term for ages and no one corrected me on it till sc15. Either no one picked up on it, everyone else is as ignorant as I or they just didn't feel like correcting me.
Thanks, Sc15.
Quote: darkozWho knows maybe I will figure it out as an AP.
Just joking. Bob's a good guy.
I've been using the pro bono term for ages and no one corrected me on it till sc15. Either no one picked up on it, everyone else is as ignorant as I or they just didn't feel like correcting me.
Thanks, Sc15.
I can see how the mistake could possibly be made. Heck, it's pretty much a dead language and only used in very specific places. Add to the fact that English isn't a Latin based language, most English speaking people would never make the connection. Now add on top of that a person who has very little legal experience, on either side, and I could see that slipping by a person for quite some time.
Have you used the term many times in the past and no one has corrected you, or only sparingly?
I've heard the term a gazillion times by people who couldn't afford attorney fees and I guess I connected that with this situation - that anytime the attorney took on a case and he wasn't getting paid by the client, he was working pro bono.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who makes that mistake because when I looked it up last night, the article heading was "What is the Difference between Pro Bono and Contingency?"
Bob is defending me in my imprisonment suit after I got caught with multiple cards on the gaming floor. He is working on contingency.
I was not caught card flipping. I was doing something different but in a strange case of crap happens the casino was under the impression I was a card flipper.
I had not card flipped in almost a year at that point.
Even when they brought me down to the back room I understood they had no clue what I had been actually doing. Unfortunately, what I was doing did involve multiple cards so they had me dead to rights on that aspect and I was banned.
This Tale of the Hustling Wars is just part of what I've witnessed in the last three years at the casinos by AP's.
Quote: Deck007That brings me to question whether the class 3 traditional casino is an outdated model in the US. Most casinos in the US are basically slot parlours.
If it's not a tribal casino, it's not Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3. Those are definitions from the IGRA.
In the context of a slot parlour, no matter what size, there is still a difference between "Class 2" and "Class 3" - it's how the outcome is determined. In Class 3 (traditional slots), it's you vs the machine (and whatever random determination it makes). In Class 2 (bingo slots), it's you and a pool of other players against a central machine (and whatever random determination it makes).
VLTs aren't quite the same as bingo slots, but some operate similarly, and some operate differently. It depends on the jurisdiction.
TL;DR: Class 3 doesn't imply table games.
In civil court, there's a plaintiff and a defendant, and either or both might have money. Civil attorneys can work on contingency from either side, and are hoping for money either by settlement or by judgment. While either plaintiff or defendant might be a public entity with staff attorneys, usually court costs (including the prevailing party's attorney fees) are part of the lawsuit. There are lots of lawsuits that are very pursuable, but if the plaintiff (you in this case) can't find an attorney who will take the risk of working for you for free and take a percentage from a win (a contingency deal - in civil court, a win usually means a financial judgment against the loser), and you don't have the money up front to retain someone, you may just drop the idea of the lawsuit.
These lawyers will also find more than one defendant, both to group a bunch of small amount awards into 1 big one for a single work effort in a particular district and/or against a single defendant, and to strengthen their case by showing a habitual plaintiff or multiple offenses. If the group appears big enough, the attorneys will file a Class Action lawsuit, where one attorney or firm represents hundreds or thousands of defendants who all suffered a common complaint or injustice, and get an amount multiplied by the number of plaintiffs, with the lawyers getting a percentage of that gross. Once the court accepts the validity of the Class Action, the lawyers will go out and look for more defendants (you see these ads all the time...ie "Have you ever been diagnosed with mesothelioma or had a loved one suffering or deceased from it? Call this 800 number to see if you qualify...") so the judgment is as big an amount as possible.
A lot of times, a failed criminal prosecution will be followed by civil suits, trying to recover something from the defendant, or the defendant suing for damages due to the process of proving their innocence. OJ Simpson's situation, and Casey Anthony, are two of the more famous double trials. Sometimes those civil suits include fees incurred during the criminal process.
Quote: beachbumbabsIn my understanding, pro bono is usually attached to a criminal suit against a defendant who doesn't have the money to pay an attorney.
Pro bono is done w/o charge or pay. The implications are limitless.
Quote: beachbumbabsA lot of times, a failed criminal prosecution will be followed by civil suits.
Do the civil first when it's complicated or drawn out, as in racqueteering.
Quote: beachbumbabsSometimes those civil suits include fees incurred during the criminal process.
Who initiates the criminal process?
Quote: KerkebetPro bono is done w/o charge or pay. The implications are limitless.
I agree: any court proceeding or legal action can be pro bono. But in a practical sense, it's for penniless defendants in criminal court, or legal aid societies trying to help poor people.
Quote: KerkebetWho initiates the criminal process?
Usually a public entity, like city/county/state/federal jurisdictions, against a person who has committed a crime for which there is a law on the books. If the family is suing someone for murdering their family member, for example, they would have to address it in civil court unless the prosecuting office that has jurisdiction over any laws broken is willing to prosecute the case. But the family can pursue a civil case even if the defendant is found innocent on the criminal charges. They just have to find a lawyer who's willing to take the case, or in rare cases (exception; small claims court, which is what Judge Judy and the others preside over, it's usually people representing themselves, but you can hire an attorney to represent you there) represent themselves. It's also common to represent yourself at traffic court, which is a criminal proceeding (you've allegedly broken some law), but you're foolish if you do it for more serious traffic offenses (like DUI), let alone any other criminal trial.
It's not just lawyers who do this I know all sorts -- dentists, doctors, and yes, lawyers, who work for free because it's the right thing to do.
Quote: Deck007Ah! 50 points for $25 dollars in freeplay. Good Luck. It is not for me.
At about $20 profit for every non-gambling relative, friend or bustout/homeless you can bribe to get a card it is for a whole lot of people.
Definitely won't last though. This reminds of the Westin's "play $300, get $300 in free play" that I made 6 figures on.
Quote: KerkebetWho initiates the criminal process?
I asked to clarify that it's not you. In which case, people like OJ can dream on if they want to sue the state/feds for malicious prosecution to recover their dream teams' costs.
I slept on a lot of what you wrote, but I can't seriously make heads or tails of it. I've had a lot of personal involvement in the civil side, and enough of the other sides thereby, to realize that whatever you're trying for here isn't so simple.
I'm surprised that none of the lawyers here had anything to add in general.
Quote: Kerkebet
I'm surprised that none of the lawyers here had anything to add in general.
Yeah, me too.
Quote: darkozLOL, no. I did nothing illegal.
They surrounded me and refused to let me leave. Insisted I go with them to the back room. Held me there for an hour. No police called although they supposedly ran a warrant check on me. That's what they said.
I have no warrants so they let me go.
Actually they broke the law by imprisoning me.
I now have a lawsuit for imprisonment. Bob Nersessian is my attorney. The case is being handled by a NY attorney who has partnered with him to handle the cases he does not have the luxury of travelling too here in NYS.
This is good stuff, be sure to keep us updated on the situation.
