The Greenbrier -- White Sulphur Springs, WV
April 14th, 2010 at 11:29:44 PM
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In another thread, I offered to provide info on my recent visit to the Greenbrier resort in White Sulphur Springs, WV, which has recently opened a resort-guests-only casino. I am neither a historian nor a recording secretary, so the comments below are just what I think I saw and heard while not taking notes.
The site has been a destination since the late 18th century, with significant changes in ownership and amenities occurring, coincidentally, approximately at hundred year intervals. The original draw was the mineral spring itself. The “taking of the waters”, both internally and externally, had reputed benefits for a wide range of ailments. Cottages were constructed for visitors in the 1830s, some still in use, and a sizable “Old White Hotel” was constructed in 1857. The White Sulphur Springs resort became a very fashionable destination but was only operated in the summer.
In 1910, after the site had been operating as a resort for roughly 100 years, the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway, later known as CSX, acquired the property and made major improvements, including a new hotel known as the Greenbrier, with a swimming pool and golf course. By 1914 the facility was operating year round and was a destination of choice for presidents and the well to do; e.g., Joseph and Rose Kennedy stayed there for their honeymoon. Business boomed and outgrew the facilities. In 1929-31, major additions were made to the hotel, and the old (1857) hotel was demolished to make way for a parking garage, foreshadowing many more recent developments around our country. Over the years, two more golf courses were added, along with a spa, a number of indoor and outdoor tennis courts, bowling alleys, a theater, numerous conference facilities, and amenities/activities too numerous to remember. Many interior walls of the hotel are covered with photographs of famous visitors over the decades.
During World War II, the government purchased the property. It was used first as an internment facility for German and Japanese diplomats and later as an army hospital, where neuro- and cardiovascular surgeries were performed on 25,000 soldiers. Following the war, the railway company re-purchased the property, invested in a major refurbishment, and reopened the resort in 1948, with a week-long celebration of Duponts, Kennedys, Vanderbilts, and the like. The resort reacquired its top-tier reputation. There are now 600 guest rooms in the main hotel and an additional 100 guest rooms in the cottages and estate houses.
During the Eisenhower administration, with pressures of the Cold War, secret plans were developed and implemented for a new wing to be constructed with an underground bunker. This was the planned site for a relocated U.S. Congress should war prevent continued operation in Washington. The facility was constructed in 1959-61, with its special-purpose operations discontinued in 1995.
By the 21st century, however, the economics of the resort were fading and much of the luster had been lost. The property was sold to a family investment group in 2009, almost 100 years after it had first been acquired by the railroad. The new owners have committed to restoring the Five Star rating to the resort, and much is already underway. The grounds are beautiful, with a gazillion and a half tulips in bloom this week.
One major addition is an entertainment complex being constructed on the site of the hotel’s front lawn. This complex is to include a casino (which required changes to state law) on the lower level and a shopping mall and restaurants on an upper level. Both of those levels will be below ground. When construction is complete, the entire complex will be buried and the front lawn re-established. Access to the entertainment complex will be through the lower lobby of the hotel. Originally scheduled to open in April 2010, the facility completion was delayed by severe winter weather. The projected opening is now June 2010, and the construction site is quite active.
In the interim, a new steakhouse has been opened in the hotel, and (almost hidden) below it is a bar area that is now the Tavern Casino. This facility has one double-zero roulette table, one three-card poker table, and eight blackjack tables. It appears that this small casino is intended to give them some operating experience and an avenue for publicity as the main casino is constructed.
Perhaps the most unique feature of the Tavern Casino and the casino being constructed is that, by law, gaming is restricted to registered overnight guests of the Greenbrier resort, members of the Greenbrier Sporting Club, and members of the Greenbrier Golf and Tennis Club. Perhaps just a little less unusual is that there is an expected/required dress code, with the business casual code for the casino in the evening being less demanding than the jacket and tie for the main dining room.
As for the games themselves, as they were operating on a Tuesday evening, the 00-roulette (a small table) had a $5 minimum and $100 maximum on the inside, with $2,000 and $3,000 maximums for various outside bets. Three-card poker had limits of $5 to $1,000 with a 1-3-6-30-40 pay schedule (unless I misremembered – I didn’t play the game.) Blackjack was offered for $10 to $1,000, with the dealer standing on all 17s. I did not see other rules listed and did not see any occasions where anyone seemed to want to re-split, surrender, or double on anything other than 10 or 11. I do not remember anyone betting more than $25 on a regular basis while I was there.
While I was playing, the table was cold enough to store vodka on. I had acquired fifteen match play coupons -- two won while thirteen lost. Not being a math major, I struggled to calculate how unreasonable that was, and I think my experience was something like 3.3 standard deviations worse than the norm. That was fairly representative of my entire time at the table. The dealers were quite pleasant, but (clearly unrelated to my own misfortunes) they were still working to develop their skills. I don’t know what one should expect in terms of smooth operations when the main casino initially opens.
I was told that current plans are for the Tavern Casino to continue to operate when the new casino opens, but I am not certain that is true. The new casino will have baccarat, craps, and other common games, but I do not have the details.
The following comments are just my impressions and do not reflect any official information. Based on the maximum wager limits, the casino is not interested in attracting whales. There is no indication that there is or will be any sort of players’ club. I heard no comments at all about any sort of possible comps. Soft drinks are free to players, but alcoholic beverages are charged at top-tier resort prices. I truly believe that they are not attempting to make this a gambling destination at all. Rather, visiting the casino for some gaming should be just one more part of your Greenbrier experience, just like the horseback riding, the spa, the golf and tennis, visits to the museum and artist colony, or reading comfortably in one of the many lounges and parlors. It is a completely different environment than anything I have ever seen in a casino. I am not even sure that they are trying to generate substantial revenue directly from the casino but rather perhaps generate the revenue by drawing more guests to the resort.
For May to October, the rate for a standard room in the main hotel runs $249-$349 per night. There are several higher-tier room classes in the hotel plus the cottages, with published rates up to $650/night. I have the impression that there are other accommodations on the grounds with rates in the range of “if you have to ask, don’t bother.” (I grabbed an ending-in-April promotional rate of $149 for an “intermediate” room. I think this rate was offered partly to promote the new casino and partly to acknowledge that the front lawn is currently a major construction project.)
Of course, the dining options are grand and priced accordingly. My wife and I had dinner for a tab of just over $100 because we weren’t eating very much. With a salad, a couple of sides, and a dessert, the tab could easily be that much per person. Lunch in the café ran just under $60 for two, to a significant extent because my wife only wanted a quesadilla from the starters menu. Certainly not out of line for fine restaurants at a Vegas hotel, but if you wanted a cheap snack, you would likely need to leave the grounds of the resort. I mention these pricing things just as a way of presenting the concept: using the casino to help generate revenue from lodging and meals as opposed to comping lodging and meals to help generate revenue in a casino. Certainly it is not what we are accustomed to seeing in casinos, and I understand that the new owner had some interesting conversations when trying to recruit experienced casino managers for his new facility.
I took a few photos and may try to post a few images, if I can figure out how to do that on this forum.
The site has been a destination since the late 18th century, with significant changes in ownership and amenities occurring, coincidentally, approximately at hundred year intervals. The original draw was the mineral spring itself. The “taking of the waters”, both internally and externally, had reputed benefits for a wide range of ailments. Cottages were constructed for visitors in the 1830s, some still in use, and a sizable “Old White Hotel” was constructed in 1857. The White Sulphur Springs resort became a very fashionable destination but was only operated in the summer.
In 1910, after the site had been operating as a resort for roughly 100 years, the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway, later known as CSX, acquired the property and made major improvements, including a new hotel known as the Greenbrier, with a swimming pool and golf course. By 1914 the facility was operating year round and was a destination of choice for presidents and the well to do; e.g., Joseph and Rose Kennedy stayed there for their honeymoon. Business boomed and outgrew the facilities. In 1929-31, major additions were made to the hotel, and the old (1857) hotel was demolished to make way for a parking garage, foreshadowing many more recent developments around our country. Over the years, two more golf courses were added, along with a spa, a number of indoor and outdoor tennis courts, bowling alleys, a theater, numerous conference facilities, and amenities/activities too numerous to remember. Many interior walls of the hotel are covered with photographs of famous visitors over the decades.
During World War II, the government purchased the property. It was used first as an internment facility for German and Japanese diplomats and later as an army hospital, where neuro- and cardiovascular surgeries were performed on 25,000 soldiers. Following the war, the railway company re-purchased the property, invested in a major refurbishment, and reopened the resort in 1948, with a week-long celebration of Duponts, Kennedys, Vanderbilts, and the like. The resort reacquired its top-tier reputation. There are now 600 guest rooms in the main hotel and an additional 100 guest rooms in the cottages and estate houses.
During the Eisenhower administration, with pressures of the Cold War, secret plans were developed and implemented for a new wing to be constructed with an underground bunker. This was the planned site for a relocated U.S. Congress should war prevent continued operation in Washington. The facility was constructed in 1959-61, with its special-purpose operations discontinued in 1995.
By the 21st century, however, the economics of the resort were fading and much of the luster had been lost. The property was sold to a family investment group in 2009, almost 100 years after it had first been acquired by the railroad. The new owners have committed to restoring the Five Star rating to the resort, and much is already underway. The grounds are beautiful, with a gazillion and a half tulips in bloom this week.
One major addition is an entertainment complex being constructed on the site of the hotel’s front lawn. This complex is to include a casino (which required changes to state law) on the lower level and a shopping mall and restaurants on an upper level. Both of those levels will be below ground. When construction is complete, the entire complex will be buried and the front lawn re-established. Access to the entertainment complex will be through the lower lobby of the hotel. Originally scheduled to open in April 2010, the facility completion was delayed by severe winter weather. The projected opening is now June 2010, and the construction site is quite active.
In the interim, a new steakhouse has been opened in the hotel, and (almost hidden) below it is a bar area that is now the Tavern Casino. This facility has one double-zero roulette table, one three-card poker table, and eight blackjack tables. It appears that this small casino is intended to give them some operating experience and an avenue for publicity as the main casino is constructed.
Perhaps the most unique feature of the Tavern Casino and the casino being constructed is that, by law, gaming is restricted to registered overnight guests of the Greenbrier resort, members of the Greenbrier Sporting Club, and members of the Greenbrier Golf and Tennis Club. Perhaps just a little less unusual is that there is an expected/required dress code, with the business casual code for the casino in the evening being less demanding than the jacket and tie for the main dining room.
As for the games themselves, as they were operating on a Tuesday evening, the 00-roulette (a small table) had a $5 minimum and $100 maximum on the inside, with $2,000 and $3,000 maximums for various outside bets. Three-card poker had limits of $5 to $1,000 with a 1-3-6-30-40 pay schedule (unless I misremembered – I didn’t play the game.) Blackjack was offered for $10 to $1,000, with the dealer standing on all 17s. I did not see other rules listed and did not see any occasions where anyone seemed to want to re-split, surrender, or double on anything other than 10 or 11. I do not remember anyone betting more than $25 on a regular basis while I was there.
While I was playing, the table was cold enough to store vodka on. I had acquired fifteen match play coupons -- two won while thirteen lost. Not being a math major, I struggled to calculate how unreasonable that was, and I think my experience was something like 3.3 standard deviations worse than the norm. That was fairly representative of my entire time at the table. The dealers were quite pleasant, but (clearly unrelated to my own misfortunes) they were still working to develop their skills. I don’t know what one should expect in terms of smooth operations when the main casino initially opens.
I was told that current plans are for the Tavern Casino to continue to operate when the new casino opens, but I am not certain that is true. The new casino will have baccarat, craps, and other common games, but I do not have the details.
The following comments are just my impressions and do not reflect any official information. Based on the maximum wager limits, the casino is not interested in attracting whales. There is no indication that there is or will be any sort of players’ club. I heard no comments at all about any sort of possible comps. Soft drinks are free to players, but alcoholic beverages are charged at top-tier resort prices. I truly believe that they are not attempting to make this a gambling destination at all. Rather, visiting the casino for some gaming should be just one more part of your Greenbrier experience, just like the horseback riding, the spa, the golf and tennis, visits to the museum and artist colony, or reading comfortably in one of the many lounges and parlors. It is a completely different environment than anything I have ever seen in a casino. I am not even sure that they are trying to generate substantial revenue directly from the casino but rather perhaps generate the revenue by drawing more guests to the resort.
For May to October, the rate for a standard room in the main hotel runs $249-$349 per night. There are several higher-tier room classes in the hotel plus the cottages, with published rates up to $650/night. I have the impression that there are other accommodations on the grounds with rates in the range of “if you have to ask, don’t bother.” (I grabbed an ending-in-April promotional rate of $149 for an “intermediate” room. I think this rate was offered partly to promote the new casino and partly to acknowledge that the front lawn is currently a major construction project.)
Of course, the dining options are grand and priced accordingly. My wife and I had dinner for a tab of just over $100 because we weren’t eating very much. With a salad, a couple of sides, and a dessert, the tab could easily be that much per person. Lunch in the café ran just under $60 for two, to a significant extent because my wife only wanted a quesadilla from the starters menu. Certainly not out of line for fine restaurants at a Vegas hotel, but if you wanted a cheap snack, you would likely need to leave the grounds of the resort. I mention these pricing things just as a way of presenting the concept: using the casino to help generate revenue from lodging and meals as opposed to comping lodging and meals to help generate revenue in a casino. Certainly it is not what we are accustomed to seeing in casinos, and I understand that the new owner had some interesting conversations when trying to recruit experienced casino managers for his new facility.
I took a few photos and may try to post a few images, if I can figure out how to do that on this forum.
April 15th, 2010 at 1:22:40 AM
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There are a few examples of the casino being a promotion for the resort here in Las Vegas. Not many, but a few. Casino Montelago at Lake Las Vegas does not make big money, but just gives guests at the Ritz Carlton and the other high end hotels something to do with their time. With the Ritz Carlton closing, the casino also folded. The casino makes much less than money than your typical low end locals casino.
The Hard Rock Casino only made about $50m on the casino, with $100m on the rest of the resort. The rooms, and dining options are all top end and can be very expensive. But the new owners are hoping to change that with a casino remodel and some expensive suites that they can use as comps.
The Greenbrier model is more like a European casino, where the casino is just a side attraction. Coat and Tie is often required, and when I was in Austria the casino could not be entered by locals. You had to show a passport.
The care and feeding of whales is a tricky business. If you have a thousand customers spending and average of a $1000 on games then the casino is not taking any risk. There are fluctuations in earnings, but basically the law of large numbers applies. If you have ten customers betting an average of $100K apiece with the same house edge, the casino is subject to huge risk. Benny Binion used to keep $5m in his safe to cover normal betters, but $25m to cover the high rollers.
Even an expensive place like Greenbriar probably doesn't ever have a million dollars for contingencies. Everything is throughput on the money.
The Hard Rock Casino only made about $50m on the casino, with $100m on the rest of the resort. The rooms, and dining options are all top end and can be very expensive. But the new owners are hoping to change that with a casino remodel and some expensive suites that they can use as comps.
The Greenbrier model is more like a European casino, where the casino is just a side attraction. Coat and Tie is often required, and when I was in Austria the casino could not be entered by locals. You had to show a passport.
The care and feeding of whales is a tricky business. If you have a thousand customers spending and average of a $1000 on games then the casino is not taking any risk. There are fluctuations in earnings, but basically the law of large numbers applies. If you have ten customers betting an average of $100K apiece with the same house edge, the casino is subject to huge risk. Benny Binion used to keep $5m in his safe to cover normal betters, but $25m to cover the high rollers.
Even an expensive place like Greenbriar probably doesn't ever have a million dollars for contingencies. Everything is throughput on the money.
April 15th, 2010 at 5:03:31 AM
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Thanks Doc and paco! This is some interesting insight into other aspects of casinos. I have always thought of a casino as the main cash cow, and the surrounding facility to be there in support of the cash cow. Quite interesting to think of the casino as just a supporting attraction to the resort itself.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
April 15th, 2010 at 5:29:30 AM
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I know cruise ships often have casinos, I don't know whether the shipping company considers it a floating casino or a floating hotel and restaurant that also offers a casino.
For various political reasons many gambling places were off in the countryside outside of city limits, such roadhouses often had a mix of customers. Greenbrier will always be a resort first and a casino second.
In Vegas, I understand grocery stores have slot machines. Clearly the money still comes from the groceries.
For various political reasons many gambling places were off in the countryside outside of city limits, such roadhouses often had a mix of customers. Greenbrier will always be a resort first and a casino second.
In Vegas, I understand grocery stores have slot machines. Clearly the money still comes from the groceries.
April 15th, 2010 at 5:35:44 AM
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I always imagined the Casuarina as offering their casino as an amenity to their guests, and not designed to generate much profit.
April 15th, 2010 at 6:55:39 AM
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FleaStiff: My wife and I have been on a dozen or so cruises. Years ago, the casinos weren’t even owned by the cruise line; they were owned and operated by outside concessionaires who leased the space on board. I think that many on-board retail shops still operate in that manner, but every ship I have been on in the past decade, the cruise line has operated the casino. While the on-board casino may be very active, many passengers never participate and only enter the casino because getting from one place to another takes you right through the center of it. I have always had the impression that even the highest rollers on board are spending more money on other aspects of the cruise. Top cruise ships are the closest my wife and I have ever previously been to something like the Greenbrier.
dlevinelaw: I agree about the Casuarina. I have never stayed there, but the casino seems more like a restful lounge. On our first visit, my wife enjoyed the environment so much she said she wanted me to bring her back there occasionally. I firmly believe that I have done so, but she assures me that I never have. Senility can be a bitch.
dlevinelaw: I agree about the Casuarina. I have never stayed there, but the casino seems more like a restful lounge. On our first visit, my wife enjoyed the environment so much she said she wanted me to bring her back there occasionally. I firmly believe that I have done so, but she assures me that I never have. Senility can be a bitch.
April 15th, 2010 at 8:29:59 AM
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I love the environment: for a decent, laid back blackjack game, it is great. Very relaxing casino, which makes it unique. Also, its minimum was $5 3-2 BJ on a day when even all of Casino Royale, Bill's, and IP's tables were $10+
April 15th, 2010 at 8:46:07 AM
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Doc;
Excellent article, couple of questions. In case of nuclear war, is that still where the president would head to? Can we expect craps, baccarat as part of the mix when the new casino opens? Will you be back to find out? If you do on the last question, give George, who transfered up from Treasure Bay, Biloxi, my regards (Alex from Florida)!
Excellent article, couple of questions. In case of nuclear war, is that still where the president would head to? Can we expect craps, baccarat as part of the mix when the new casino opens? Will you be back to find out? If you do on the last question, give George, who transfered up from Treasure Bay, Biloxi, my regards (Alex from Florida)!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 15th, 2010 at 9:13:16 AM
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I think the Greenbrier was specifically the destination for the Legislative Branch. I think the Executive Branch had another destination, but I am not sure. Yes, craps and baccarat in the full casino; thought I had mentioned that. I would love to visit again, but I don't know that there will be future opportunities that would fit into my budget -- I just exploited a "construction zone" special. Right now, I am trying to set up those photos that I promised.Quote: DeMangoDoc;
Excellent article, couple of questions. In case of nuclear war, is that still where the president would head to? Can we expect craps, baccarat as part of the mix when the new casino opens? Will you be back to find out? If you do on the last question, give George, who transfered up from Treasure Bay, Biloxi, my regards (Alex from Florida)!
April 15th, 2010 at 10:04:13 AM
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So here is my attempt to post some photos of the Greenbrier:
First we have the North Entrance to the main hotel. This is actually just a side door that is temporarily being used as the main entrance while construction is underway on the front lawn. I think it should give some idea of the grandeur of the place, when the "back door" looks like this.
Next, to show the ambiance of the grounds, we have some random equestrians returning from a ride. Other than SouthPoint, I don't know where you would find such a thing around a Vegas casino.
I took a number of photos that show the decor of the inside the hotel, but I will limit this exhibit to just the colonnade room of the main dining area. Here, you can enjoy fine dining to the sounds of the grand piano rather than to Muzak.
Of course, I could not take a photo of the undisturbed front lawn, but this is the artist's rendition used for construction of the additions in 1929-31. Consider this drawing in conjunction with the earlier photo of the North Entrance and try to visualize both the "before" and "after" views of the current construction site.
And here are my three views of the Entertainment Complex under construction.
All the underground concrete and rebar bring to mind Terry Benedict's vault in the Ocean's 11 remake.
In conclusion, if such a resort experience would fit within your budget, I heartily recommend a stay, with a duration to match how long you would want to enjoy yourself.
First we have the North Entrance to the main hotel. This is actually just a side door that is temporarily being used as the main entrance while construction is underway on the front lawn. I think it should give some idea of the grandeur of the place, when the "back door" looks like this.
Next, to show the ambiance of the grounds, we have some random equestrians returning from a ride. Other than SouthPoint, I don't know where you would find such a thing around a Vegas casino.
I took a number of photos that show the decor of the inside the hotel, but I will limit this exhibit to just the colonnade room of the main dining area. Here, you can enjoy fine dining to the sounds of the grand piano rather than to Muzak.
Of course, I could not take a photo of the undisturbed front lawn, but this is the artist's rendition used for construction of the additions in 1929-31. Consider this drawing in conjunction with the earlier photo of the North Entrance and try to visualize both the "before" and "after" views of the current construction site.
And here are my three views of the Entertainment Complex under construction.
All the underground concrete and rebar bring to mind Terry Benedict's vault in the Ocean's 11 remake.
In conclusion, if such a resort experience would fit within your budget, I heartily recommend a stay, with a duration to match how long you would want to enjoy yourself.
April 15th, 2010 at 10:37:34 AM
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Quote: DeMangoDoc;
Excellent article, couple of questions. In case of nuclear war, is that still where the president would head to? Can we expect craps, baccarat as part of the mix when the new casino opens? Will you be back to find out? If you do on the last question, give George, who transfered up from Treasure Bay, Biloxi, my regards (Alex from Florida)!
It was only the destination for the legislative branch, but the Washington Post published a story revealing the complex to the public in 1992, after which the bunker was decommissioned. The complex was never used in the 30 years of it's existence.
The state passed a special piece of legislation simply to allow gaming for this one property. The resort is only 721 rooms so it is relatively small by Vegas standards.
Quote: The Washington Post
The Ultimate Congressional Hideaway
By Ted Gup
Sunday, May 31, 1992
The year was 1960 and Randy Wickline was building something so immense and unnerving that he dared not ask what it was. All the Superior Supply Co. plant manager was told was that he was to haul concrete -- an endless river of concrete -- to be poured into the cavernous hole that had been excavated beside the posh Greenbrier hotel in White Sulphur Springs, W. Va. He remembers an urgency about the job, his supervisor hollering "hurry up," even instructing him to push the legal weight limit on his truckloads, and paying the fines that resulted. To keep up with the job, Superior Supply had to purchase two more concrete mixers, and still it was stretched thin. Over the next 2 1/2 years, Wickline estimates, the company hauled some 4,000 loads to the site and poured 50,000 tons of concrete into the abyss that scrapers, rippers and air hammers had carved out of the shale. Cost was never an issue.
June 8th, 2010 at 8:46:14 AM
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My initial post on this thread was a report of my April 2010 visit to the Greenbrier resort and their small, perhaps temporary, casino.
Their main casino will open on July 2, and they have a gala opening planned. Here is the link for their announcement.
Sounds like a grand event, but the tariff is too steep for me. Perhaps some of you are up for such a shindig.
Their main casino will open on July 2, and they have a gala opening planned. Here is the link for their announcement.
Sounds like a grand event, but the tariff is too steep for me. Perhaps some of you are up for such a shindig.
July 4th, 2010 at 6:58:52 PM
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Anyone have any pictures of the new casino? Sounds like it's swank beyond most of the Vegas resorts.
