Thoughts on Mt. 22:15-21
October 10th, 2011 at 3:41:13 PM
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Hey everybody I was wondering if we could have a weekly discussion on a short passage from the Bible. The purpose is two-fold: 1) To allow the many good, wonderful, and intelligent members of this forum to express their interpretations and varied viewpoints, comments, and questions about a certain text of Scripture.
2) To help me in my weekly homily preparation by hearing what people think about a certain text I will be preaching on come Sunday. Hearing your genuine comments about what strikes you, frustrates you, confuses you, or makes you happy will be helpful. Also helpful will the questions the text brings to your mind and your own interpretations on what the text is saying.
May I also suggest a few rules for this to work:
a) I will not try to defend or push any certain interpretation of the text from my own tradition, I think we all want to hear what we are all thinking and not the dogmatic definitions or traditional interpretations, if I can do this maybe we can all do the same and just let people's thoughts stand and not attack them. If questions are posed we can all try to do our best to answer them. At the end of the week I will post my homily which will hopefully be influenced and made better by your honest comments.
b) Stay very focused on just the text presented. Do not go into comments or posts from all over the Bible unless you think it directly connects to this presented text.
c) Likewise, no matter what your beliefs may be concerning God, let's not attack religion, faith, or the lack of either in our posts. Stay focused again on the passage and try to suspend your disbelief if you need to in order to comment on what you think the words mean to you.
Here we go:
Matthew 22:15-21
The Pharisees went off
and plotted how they might entrap Jesus in speech.
They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying,
"Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man
and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.
And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion,
for you do not regard a person's status.
Tell us, then, what is your opinion:
Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?"
Knowing their malice, Jesus said,
"Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?
Show me the coin that pays the census tax."
Then they handed him the Roman coin.
He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?"
They replied, "Caesar's."
At that he said to them,
"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
and to God what belongs to God."
2) To help me in my weekly homily preparation by hearing what people think about a certain text I will be preaching on come Sunday. Hearing your genuine comments about what strikes you, frustrates you, confuses you, or makes you happy will be helpful. Also helpful will the questions the text brings to your mind and your own interpretations on what the text is saying.
May I also suggest a few rules for this to work:
a) I will not try to defend or push any certain interpretation of the text from my own tradition, I think we all want to hear what we are all thinking and not the dogmatic definitions or traditional interpretations, if I can do this maybe we can all do the same and just let people's thoughts stand and not attack them. If questions are posed we can all try to do our best to answer them. At the end of the week I will post my homily which will hopefully be influenced and made better by your honest comments.
b) Stay very focused on just the text presented. Do not go into comments or posts from all over the Bible unless you think it directly connects to this presented text.
c) Likewise, no matter what your beliefs may be concerning God, let's not attack religion, faith, or the lack of either in our posts. Stay focused again on the passage and try to suspend your disbelief if you need to in order to comment on what you think the words mean to you.
Here we go:
Matthew 22:15-21
The Pharisees went off
and plotted how they might entrap Jesus in speech.
They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying,
"Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man
and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.
And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion,
for you do not regard a person's status.
Tell us, then, what is your opinion:
Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?"
Knowing their malice, Jesus said,
"Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?
Show me the coin that pays the census tax."
Then they handed him the Roman coin.
He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?"
They replied, "Caesar's."
At that he said to them,
"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
and to God what belongs to God."
October 10th, 2011 at 4:27:56 PM
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Quote: FrGamble"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God."
Although the parable is very profound, I have no idea how you actually put it into practice. The "7 Year's War" or "The French and Indian War" from 1754 to 1763 resulted in widespread taxation of the colonies. It was the widespread anger about these taxes which was the galvanizing force that brought the colonies (which totaled less than 2 million people) to the point where they were willing to challenge the greatest military power in the world at that time, for independence.
Had they just paid their taxes, we would not have a nation.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:04:34 PM
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I think the passage needs to be taken in context. The Romans were oppressive in their taxation of the Jews. The Pharisees were a caste of Orthodox Jewish scholars who were angling to trap Jesus in a moral corner: Support the hated Romans, and alienate the Jewish multitude; or cross the Romans by endorsing a boycott of the tax, thereby giving them a reason to have him put to death for sedition.
Jesus wisely cuts to the heart of the matter, reminding all of us to keep the temporary things of this Earth in their place, and not confuse them with the eternal, priceless things of God.
I am reminded in this passage that God doesn't need.... period.
Does He need people to give 10% in order to carry out His will in this world? No. He will succeed just fine without me, and in fact uses non-believers to accomplish His will, just as much as believers.
I am reminded to be like minded, focused on the eternal, and not on the temporary.
Jesus wisely cuts to the heart of the matter, reminding all of us to keep the temporary things of this Earth in their place, and not confuse them with the eternal, priceless things of God.
I am reminded in this passage that God doesn't need.... period.
Does He need people to give 10% in order to carry out His will in this world? No. He will succeed just fine without me, and in fact uses non-believers to accomplish His will, just as much as believers.
I am reminded to be like minded, focused on the eternal, and not on the temporary.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 10th, 2011 at 5:17:34 PM
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Quote: pacomartinHad they just paid their taxes, we would not have a nation.
I don't think so. The oppresive taxation, and "yearning for freedom," (religious as well as financial) would have eventually led to a push for independence. I think the taxes were more than just an inconvenient, "cost of doing business", but a heavy yoke and chain that were used to keep the colonists in constant debt. They could not have put up with it forever.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 10th, 2011 at 5:18:01 PM
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I think the text is saying the church doesn't compete with Caesar. He might be a king on earth but is just another face in G_D's kingdom.
Society has a way of honoring the most materially successful/powerful etc...I got a funny note today from my mom:
"A quotation from an old book by Jose Otega in the '30's: "...history, like agriculture, draws its nourishment from the valleys and not from the heights, from the average social level and not from men of eminence." Interesting, don't you think. He was making observation about the development of the "mass" mentality and analyzing "mass" action, in his standard read for all Western Civ classes in the 60's and 70's: The Revolt of the Masses. Though Otega's observations/analyses were of late 19th and early 20th c. European culture, it has timeless lessons and I think this may have been the source, too, for your dad's oft repeated comment "the masses are asses". "
Society has a way of honoring the most materially successful/powerful etc...I got a funny note today from my mom:
"A quotation from an old book by Jose Otega in the '30's: "...history, like agriculture, draws its nourishment from the valleys and not from the heights, from the average social level and not from men of eminence." Interesting, don't you think. He was making observation about the development of the "mass" mentality and analyzing "mass" action, in his standard read for all Western Civ classes in the 60's and 70's: The Revolt of the Masses. Though Otega's observations/analyses were of late 19th and early 20th c. European culture, it has timeless lessons and I think this may have been the source, too, for your dad's oft repeated comment "the masses are asses". "
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because."
E.E. Cummings
October 10th, 2011 at 5:27:58 PM
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Quote: FrGamble
"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
and to God what belongs to God."
I've never understood this. What does god get
repaid, exactly.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 10th, 2011 at 5:31:01 PM
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...depends on what you think you owe G_D. Freewill is a pain in the ass heh?
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because."
E.E. Cummings
October 10th, 2011 at 5:33:08 PM
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"...to whom much is given, much is required."
October 10th, 2011 at 5:35:04 PM
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Quote: ikilledjerrylogan"...to whom much is given, much is required."
Isn't that class warfare ?
October 10th, 2011 at 5:38:16 PM
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maybe... but "it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" - mark 10:25.... is definitely class warfare.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:38:19 PM
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Quote: Scotty71...depends on what you think you owe G_D. Freewill is a pain in the ass heh?
I owe God as much as I owe any other badly conceived fictional character. Which is to say, thanks to the authors for stepping in flaws and plot holes and contradictions before me.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 10th, 2011 at 5:41:16 PM
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Quote: ikilledjerryloganmaybe... but "it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" - mark 10:25.... is definitely class warfare.
Except the needle was a small entrance into a walled city. Camel had to be unloaded first, then down on his knees to enter. A little time consuming, that's all.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:42:03 PM
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Quote: NareedI owe God as much as I owe any other badly conceived fictional character. Which is to say, thanks to the authors for stepping in flaws and plot holes and contradictions before me.
Is this why so many people ignore this guy? So predictable...as if we don't already know your position on God.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:44:35 PM
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Quote: ikilledjerryloganIs this why so many people ignore this guy? So predictab
le...as if we don't already know your position on God.
Should not the sermon be directed to people like Nareed? I mean the expression preaching to the choir has meaning !
October 10th, 2011 at 5:45:28 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffExcept the needle was a small entrance into a walled city. Camel had to be unloaded first, then down on his knees to enter. A little time consuming, that's all.
You're wrong. People who take your position obviously dont read the rest of the chapter, the disciples say "who then can be saved?" Jesus answers "With man it is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible".
October 10th, 2011 at 5:47:18 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffShould not the sermon be directed to people like Nareed? I mean the expression preaching to the choir has meaning !
The OP clearly states the reason for his post and the guidelines for the discussion.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:49:18 PM
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Quote: ikilledjerryloganThe OP clearly states the reason for his post and the guidelines for the discussion.
To allow the many good, wonderful, and intelligent members of this forum to express their interpretations and varied viewpoints, comments, and questions about a certain text of Scripture.
Where does Nareed not qualify to comment ?
Be careful with your answer.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:51:59 PM
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Really? everything is allowed yet I should be careful with my response? Such an obvious contradiction at your age is comical :D You should also probably read the OP again, more so near the bottom.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:54:43 PM
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I think that in the quoted passage Jesus is simply stating what has been forgotten by many religions followers over the years. The separation of church and state is required in a free society.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:56:09 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffShould not the sermon be directed to people like Nareed?
Hell, no! :)
Seriously, I had friend with whom I got along very well, despite the fact he was quite religious and I wasn't. Then he made it his mission in life to preach at me. That's why I had a friend, you understand.
Quote:I mean the expression preaching to the choir has meaning !
I think it's something political...
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 10th, 2011 at 5:56:19 PM
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Seriously though isn't rendering to Ceasar what is Ceasars the same as love thy neighbor as thyself? I mean you are contributing to survival of the species.
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
October 10th, 2011 at 5:59:25 PM
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You mean render unto Caesar so he can import more lions to eat Christians ??
October 10th, 2011 at 6:01:31 PM
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Quote: ikilledjerryloganReally? everything is allowed yet I should be careful with my response? Such an obvious contradiction at your age is comical :D You should also probably read the OP again, more so near the bottom.
No this is not the free speech zone Everything is not allowed. My comment was not aimed at Nareed. Just thought you might want to reflect before posting if I had ruffle your feathers.
October 10th, 2011 at 6:03:50 PM
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I do not see anything at the bottom that disqualifies anyone expressing their opinion in a polite manner. The good padre came here, and not the Christian reading Room.
October 10th, 2011 at 6:15:48 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffNo this is not the free speech zone Everything is not allowed. My comment was not aimed at Nareed. Just thought you might want to reflect before posting if I had ruffle your feathers.
When exactly did I become an instant flame war?
Never mind. Buzz, I appreciate your posts, but there's no use. You'll never get a religious person to back down on such things.
Yes, the OP asked that certain rules be follwoed. I dind't follow them, or so it might be interpreted. I could argue that such requests are requests and not forum rules, but I won't. After all, common courtesy requires such reasonable requests shoudl be honored out of simple respect and reciprocity. Therefore I apologize for not doing so.
As to the passage in question, I've heard it used to justify the separation of church and state. About the only good thing I can say about religion, is that the better ones recognize such a separation most of the time.
Edited to add:
About the camel and the needle bit, I recall a joke about a rich guy reading the passage and then calling his secretary. "Miss Jones," he says, "please find out for me the maximum dimensions ever recorded for a camel. Then get me in touch with the biggest steel foundry in Germany."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 10th, 2011 at 6:22:03 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffYou mean render unto Caesar so he can import more lions to eat Christians ??
This gives me great hope for the evolution of the human race. In 2,000 years we've gone from Death matches in the coliseums to pseudo death matches in the coliseums - From death to concussions! Now that's evolution! We may be peaceful in another 25,000 years!
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
October 10th, 2011 at 6:26:04 PM
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Father, I really wanted to help since you were so kind to answer a personal question for me earlier. However, whether due to my current concussion or simple lack of knowledge, I'm kind of blank on forming an original idea. I do think Ayecarumba's post of...
...is well said. I would add (keeping in mind my athieism and ignorance of this passage, and looking at this as I would any other literary work) that's Jesus' apparant exasperation ("Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?") says that not only do material things not matter (as Aye pointed out) but trivial squabbles amongst people aren't fit for God's company. In other words, God won't or refuses to be used as ammo to perpitrate a foul act (support the hated Romans, and alienate the Jewish multitude; or cross the Romans by endorsing a boycott of the tax, thereby giving them a reason to have him put to death for sedition.)
Maybe someone can chime in on if that makes sense. My thoughts are a bit muddy these past few days.
And to lighten things up a bit and give a humorous challenge to MrV's post, I bet thecesspit, SOOPOO, and thousands of other Bills and Lions fans are absolutely certain that God is alive and well ;)
Quote: Ayecarumba... The Romans were oppressive in their taxation of the Jews. The Pharisees were a caste of Orthodox Jewish scholars who were angling to trap Jesus in a moral corner: Support the hated Romans, and alienate the Jewish multitude; or cross the Romans by endorsing a boycott of the tax, thereby giving them a reason to have him put to death for sedition.
Jesus wisely cuts to the heart of the matter, reminding all of us to keep the temporary things of this Earth in their place, and not confuse them with the eternal, priceless things of God.
...is well said. I would add (keeping in mind my athieism and ignorance of this passage, and looking at this as I would any other literary work) that's Jesus' apparant exasperation ("Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?") says that not only do material things not matter (as Aye pointed out) but trivial squabbles amongst people aren't fit for God's company. In other words, God won't or refuses to be used as ammo to perpitrate a foul act (support the hated Romans, and alienate the Jewish multitude; or cross the Romans by endorsing a boycott of the tax, thereby giving them a reason to have him put to death for sedition.)
Maybe someone can chime in on if that makes sense. My thoughts are a bit muddy these past few days.
And to lighten things up a bit and give a humorous challenge to MrV's post, I bet thecesspit, SOOPOO, and thousands of other Bills and Lions fans are absolutely certain that God is alive and well ;)
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
October 10th, 2011 at 6:38:17 PM
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I think its a description of something that somebody said a long time ago. Don't go reading too much into it.
October 10th, 2011 at 7:32:57 PM
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I just split off some posts to Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble's bible study. That doesn't mean the ones that remain I consider appropriate, just that I don't have time to make a call on every post.
Let's mind our manners in this thread and keep the discussion focused on the passage at hand, not attacking religion in general. This is supposed to be a bible study where we exchange thoughts and ideas about the passage. So let's try to be gentlemen, people, and keep this thread on topic.
Let's mind our manners in this thread and keep the discussion focused on the passage at hand, not attacking religion in general. This is supposed to be a bible study where we exchange thoughts and ideas about the passage. So let's try to be gentlemen, people, and keep this thread on topic.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 10th, 2011 at 7:49:49 PM
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I'm reading some good thoughts. So far there has been some discussion on making sure we keep the temporary things that are here today and gone tomorrow (like money or 3:2 BJ) in perspective when compared to the priceless and eternal things that last forever. This thought was taken a little further to include looking at trival arguements or tricks from people who really don't have an intrest in getting an answer as not something that should drag us down. This is helpful. I've seen a few comments about the importance of the separation of Church and State as well. I have been really intrigued by EvenBob's question concerning what we should owe to or render unto God?
Thanks everybody this is good stuff to keep developing and discussing. In trying to answer the question about what is owed to God I can't help but think about the image drawn on the coin. If the image on the coin is Ceasar's give it to him. Whose image can be seen in the amazing gifts we have as human beings and what does that mean we owe to God?
Any new thoughts and interpretations not heard yet? Thanks again everybody.
Thanks everybody this is good stuff to keep developing and discussing. In trying to answer the question about what is owed to God I can't help but think about the image drawn on the coin. If the image on the coin is Ceasar's give it to him. Whose image can be seen in the amazing gifts we have as human beings and what does that mean we owe to God?
Any new thoughts and interpretations not heard yet? Thanks again everybody.
October 10th, 2011 at 8:16:15 PM
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Jesus had a particular problem due to the expectation of the times that The Messiah was to lead a Jewish Revolution. Whatever else you want to believe about Him, it does seem to be the case that war and revolution in the classic sense was not a goal at all. Ultimately He was killed for it; I think out of a sense that such a "loose cannon" had to be dealt with, His careful attention to be blameless in the matter notwithstanding.
This particular story reveals the trickiness of Messianic ministry while simultaneously dealing with the occupying Romans and other paranoid enemies. Brilliantly, it also serves to instruct us in our own lives how to deal with the trickiness of trying to live a moral life while simultaneously juggling our personal inter-relations, business, and careers. Being told often that even atheists value a certain moral code, I know that means all of us daily juggle indeed, as the lessons of our industry often seem to instruct an abject selfishness in pursuit of personal progress. Matters pertaining to Caesar, so to speak, abound in life, if I may include all business, not just government. IMO Christ here lets us know how to handle the seeming contradictions. Just for the record, I have failed plenty to heed them, but I will say that for those who I see going through life trying to cheat and steal, all go to ruin. From the stories I hear about cheaters in Casinos, this especially seems to be true.
That's what I get out of it, anyway.
This particular story reveals the trickiness of Messianic ministry while simultaneously dealing with the occupying Romans and other paranoid enemies. Brilliantly, it also serves to instruct us in our own lives how to deal with the trickiness of trying to live a moral life while simultaneously juggling our personal inter-relations, business, and careers. Being told often that even atheists value a certain moral code, I know that means all of us daily juggle indeed, as the lessons of our industry often seem to instruct an abject selfishness in pursuit of personal progress. Matters pertaining to Caesar, so to speak, abound in life, if I may include all business, not just government. IMO Christ here lets us know how to handle the seeming contradictions. Just for the record, I have failed plenty to heed them, but I will say that for those who I see going through life trying to cheat and steal, all go to ruin. From the stories I hear about cheaters in Casinos, this especially seems to be true.
That's what I get out of it, anyway.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 10th, 2011 at 8:18:01 PM
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Quote: FrGamble"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
and to God what belongs to God."
The NIV says: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Its obvious what belongs to Caesar, not so
obvious what is god's. What was Jesus trying
to say here. Why is Jesus implying that we
owe anything to god. To me he's saying god
is the heavenly father, we owe him whatever
a deity in that position is owed. Respect him,
don't mock him, do what he suggests. Look
to him for guidance. Basically what any deity
in any religion requires.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 1:20:15 AM
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My take on the passage is that things on earth belong there, and things that are spiritual belong there as well.
Jesus to me is essentially saying that the gold coin is just an object and it belongs to Caesar. If he wanted to tax the income at 100% or 10% that's up to him - his money. If they taxed Jews oppressively, it was no point to Jesus.
Jesus made the opposite but powerful point too - give to God what you think you owe him and not of Caesar's coin.
Jesus to me is essentially saying that the gold coin is just an object and it belongs to Caesar. If he wanted to tax the income at 100% or 10% that's up to him - his money. If they taxed Jews oppressively, it was no point to Jesus.
Jesus made the opposite but powerful point too - give to God what you think you owe him and not of Caesar's coin.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
October 11th, 2011 at 6:35:38 AM
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Believer or not, that's quite disrespectful.Quote: NareedI owe God as much as I owe any other badly conceived fictional character.
In other posts, Nareed talks about the cross-dressing / trans-gender lifestyle she has. As might be expected, this tends to leave people outside of the GLBT community somewhat confused. Yet Nareed takes exception to being addressed as "him" (or is it being addressed as "her"?) which, on the grand scale of things, is a relatively minor and understandable error.
That being the case, you'd expect Nareed of all people to be more respectful of other's beliefs, and not fictionalize it.
In the past, I supported Nareed's position. Now I can no longer tolerate it. Nareed has been added to my "Ignore" list.
---
I was raised Jewish, but have come to a personal belief that God is an invention of man, not the other way around.
That said, I respect FrGamble's opinions and beliefs. And although I don't always get the New Testament stuff he discusses, I've enjoyed his thought provoking posts, and hope he continues.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 11th, 2011 at 7:50:55 AM
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Posts about tithing have been moved to tithing.
Please put posts ragging on religion in general in Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble's bible study.
Please put posts ragging on religion in general in Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble's bible study.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 11th, 2011 at 7:53:28 AM
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How about a section for religious discussions?
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 11th, 2011 at 8:15:42 AM
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Getting back on topic, the passage at hand raises more questions for me than it answers. If I were there at the time I would have asked Jesus to expand on his point. Taking his point literally, shouldn't we give all our money to the treasury, since it all has Caesar's face on it? There are other verses that seem to show that Jesus had a cavalier attitude about money, at best. We all know about the verse that says the love of money is the root of all evil. Not to mention the one about the rich man and the eye of the needle. He seems to say that money is downright corrupting and dangerous.
Yet Jesus' crew carried around spending money. This may be getting off topic, but, shall we say, I'm confused by Jesus' position on money in general. While Jesus is often portrayed as having taken a vow of poverty, going about nearly penniless, I question if that was true. Clearly Judas has enough incentive to skim the petty cash fund and think he wouldn't get noticed. Weighing the risk and reward, you would think he wouldn't take the chance if there wasn't significant money to be made. So, what do you say Christians, was Jesus poor or not?
Yet Jesus' crew carried around spending money. This may be getting off topic, but, shall we say, I'm confused by Jesus' position on money in general. While Jesus is often portrayed as having taken a vow of poverty, going about nearly penniless, I question if that was true. Clearly Judas has enough incentive to skim the petty cash fund and think he wouldn't get noticed. Weighing the risk and reward, you would think he wouldn't take the chance if there wasn't significant money to be made. So, what do you say Christians, was Jesus poor or not?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 11th, 2011 at 10:14:00 AM
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The bible is a text that's a few thousand years old. I am sure that Matthew probably left out the "small talk". I'm sure that the conversation went quite a bit differently but over the years, the unimportant pieces of the conversation got weeded out with the key lesson being left in.
I love it, the first paragraph, back on topic, the second paragraph, a bit off topic. Gotta love the Wiz!
I think that Jesus wanted people to love God and not the possessions on the planet, especially money. Money would have been a very important topic of the day, becuase of the unfair tax that Caesar put on the Jews. I think he is saying that money was corrupting and certainly dangerous as it takes away from the love of God.
I think Jesus was poor, by choice, but the ministry had money. Jesus just didn't spend it as his own, in my opinion.
I love it, the first paragraph, back on topic, the second paragraph, a bit off topic. Gotta love the Wiz!
I think that Jesus wanted people to love God and not the possessions on the planet, especially money. Money would have been a very important topic of the day, becuase of the unfair tax that Caesar put on the Jews. I think he is saying that money was corrupting and certainly dangerous as it takes away from the love of God.
I think Jesus was poor, by choice, but the ministry had money. Jesus just didn't spend it as his own, in my opinion.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
October 11th, 2011 at 10:18:13 AM
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Quote: WizardSo, what do you say Christians, was Jesus poor or not?
I don't think we can know for sure, but I would think he and his followers had sufficient funding much of the time. They fed multitudes on occasion, and that took some wherewithal, miraculous ability to stretch those funds or not. When the heat was on, they bought swords, which couldnt have been cheap. And you don't support 13 of yourselves on nothing. It has been postulated by some that he might have had wealthy supporters, that Nicodemus for example was a representative of a secret group of supporters. Growing popular support helped I'm sure, although it got him killed.
I think he was sincere in his statements about how it is bad to worship money, and to say he saw to sufficient funding does not make him a hypocrite per se.
[btw I decided not to capitalize 'He' for a change. Just doesnt seem necessary for a discussion like this]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 11th, 2011 at 10:50:14 AM
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Quote: Wizard...was Jesus poor or not?
Jesus was not destitute. He had skills as a carpenter. He was recognized as a teacher. However, he was not living in the lap of luxury, adorned with jewels and gold chains. Folks shared freely and generously with Him and his followers. He provided for his followers with the occasional miraculous meal. He could also pay with money if needed (a coin in a fish's mouth). I think the goal was to change the focus of the people from worrying about the temporary, physical comforts of today (what shall I wear? where shall I sleep?), to enjoying the bounty God provides by focusing on the eternal things (loving God, and loving your neighbors). It's not that He didn't use money, but I think Jesus kept money's influence on Him in its proper place. Remember that before he even started his public ministry, he was presented with the option of being "King" (in the Caesar sense) of the entire world, but turned it down. He knew that his every need would be met by his heavenly Father.
Judas, apparently, was not so focused on the eternal. Even today, we read about disputes over what we might consider petty things. Yet some of these conficts lead to murder. The same love of material things remains a powerful force with us today, and material things are still as temporary as ever.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 11th, 2011 at 12:36:02 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThat being the case, you'd expect Nareed of all people to be more respectful of other's beliefs, and not fictionalize it.
I often find that the people who scream intolerance
the loudest about themselves, are sometimes the most
intolerant of others. Respect my beliefs, but don't expect
the same out of me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 12:51:05 PM
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Back to the original verses, I actually interpret them to be more about idolatry than anything else. The coin is gold and it has Caesar's likeness on it. It seems that Jesus is preaching the dangers of putting more stock in money than in God.
Vonnegut (via the Books of Bokonon in his novel Cat's Cradle) had an interesting interpretation: "Pay no attention to Caesar. He has no idea what is really going on."
Vonnegut (via the Books of Bokonon in his novel Cat's Cradle) had an interesting interpretation: "Pay no attention to Caesar. He has no idea what is really going on."
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
October 11th, 2011 at 1:23:14 PM
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Quote: FrGamble
Matthew 22:15-21
The Pharisees went off
and plotted how they might entrap Jesus in speech.
They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying,
"Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man
and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.
And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion,
for you do not regard a person's status.
Tell us, then, what is your opinion:
Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?"
Knowing their malice, Jesus said,
"Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?
Show me the coin that pays the census tax."
Then they handed him the Roman coin.
He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?"
They replied, "Caesar's."
At that he said to them,
"Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
and to God what belongs to God."
I believe the purpose of this parable is at least partly to show that Jesus is as clever as the Pharisees, that he recognizes a trap and refuses to fall into it. The original question posed to him is fraught with danger; if he answers one way, he says that Caesar trumps god; if he answers the other, he is advocating treason, rebellion, whatever you want to call it. So his answer is a third way out.
However, the story serves several purposes. First, it shows Jesus as a "wise man", and superior in reasoning to wise men whom the listeners may already know. Second, it shows that there is a way to think outside the box when confronted with complex questions about faith and life. And third, it says to "keep your eyes on the prize", so to speak; don't be tricked into arguments and questions that mislead you from the true answer, which is to follow gods law and teachings; those principles transcend earthly concerns. The original question is irrelevant, it is invented to distract people from the underlying truth of god's message.
(edit) I had no idea Vonnegut took this on, I find it interesting that he has the same take on it that I do.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 11th, 2011 at 2:24:59 PM
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It's too bad you saw that but not the apology.
I see no reason why I should be more respectful of other people's beliefs than the average person ought to be.
So you're saying God is fictional?
I don't. There you have it in writing, more or less.
I respect his right to believe whatever he wants. I would oppose anyone who says differently. But the content of hie beliefs are fair game. for criticism.
As to what I have against religion, you can PM me if you care to find out. I'm not trying to start a flame war here.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThat being the case, you'd expect Nareed of all people to be more respectful of other's beliefs, and not fictionalize it.
I see no reason why I should be more respectful of other people's beliefs than the average person ought to be.
Quote:I was raised Jewish, but have come to a personal belief that God is an invention of man, not the other way around.
So you're saying God is fictional?
Quote:That said, I respect FrGamble's opinions and beliefs.
I don't. There you have it in writing, more or less.
I respect his right to believe whatever he wants. I would oppose anyone who says differently. But the content of hie beliefs are fair game. for criticism.
As to what I have against religion, you can PM me if you care to find out. I'm not trying to start a flame war here.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 11th, 2011 at 4:11:43 PM
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I saw it, but suspected that it was insincere.Quote: NareedIt's too bad you saw that but not the apology.
I now feel vindicated about my feelings towards your sincerity.Quote: NareedI see no reason why I should be more respectful of other people's beliefs than the average person ought to be.
Nope. I'm saying God is a complex entity.Quote: NareedSo you're saying God is fictional?
Criticism is one thing. You went way beyond mere critique, to the point where it is obvious that you do not respect FrGamble, or his beliefs.Quote: NareedI respect his right to believe whatever he wants. I would oppose anyone who says differently. But the content of hie beliefs are fair game. for criticism.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 11th, 2011 at 4:20:39 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearCriticism is one thing. You went way beyond mere critique, to the point where it is obvious that you do not respect FrGamble, or his beliefs.
I said I don't respect his beliefs.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 11th, 2011 at 4:51:48 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI now feel vindicated about my feelings towards your sincerity.
That's not an answer, and not much to hang your certainty on. I mean it: why should I in particular be more respectful of other people's beliefs than the average poster here. Particualrly, why should I respect the beliefs of people or institutions who wish me ill, and who work to limit my liberty and the quality of my life?
Quote:Nope. I'm saying God is a complex entity.
So are other man-made creations, including other deities. The Greek gods are fascinatingly complex, even, but make for better reading.
Ah, but we're rehashing old arguments where I never got a straight answer.
Look, I'm sorry you feel this way. I truly am. But I fail to see what made you snap. I woudl like to discuss this privately, but you're not accepting PMs.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 11th, 2011 at 4:57:24 PM
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Quote: NareedI mean it: why should I in particular be more respectful of other people's beliefs than the average poster here.
Because you DEMAND that everybody here accept that
you prance around Vegas dressed as a woman, thats why.
And if we don't, you come unglued. Are you really this
dense?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 5:12:31 PM
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I'm still ruminating on the question: what can we give to God? Ultimately, even if the coins have Cesear's image on it they do still belong to God don't they? What is the only thing that God created that He needs us to give him? Even our life is not something God needs to worry about getting back from us because one day we are going to have to do that. Right now I'm leaning towards free will and a related subject love. It is the one thing God has given us that he will not force us to give back to him. Cesear ultimately just wants our money and outward expressions of obedience, God wants something deeper. He wants us to freely choose Him over all the other stuff of this world. Just a thought for now that needs some developing.
Another cool question raised, was Jesus poor? I think Aye hit it on the head when he said Jesus did not worry about money, it did not preoccupy him and he encourages his disciples many times to not be worried about money, or food, or clothes, or other worldly things. This is very different than a disdain for wealth which some people like to think Jesus taught. Of course some saints like Francis took some of these passages literally and took a true vow of poverty - they still do today and literally do not own a thing. While this is beautiful in some regards I can't see myself preaching to the people to give away all their money to the government, the Church, the poor, a casino, or anywhere else. Most people in the pews are probably asking themselves how do I hold onto more of my money? How do I help them to see through this text that it is okay to have money; that you don't have to give everything to Cesear or even that you don't have to give all your money to God (with the possible exception of our new building fund, ha)?
Quick story - I went one time to Cesear's Palace in Atlantic City and at some point noticed many of my chips had Nero's image on them. Well, I started doing anything I could to get them out of my stack, upping my bets and the like. I think it put an early end to my only visit there. Nero is still causing at least one not so bright Christian problems.
Another cool question raised, was Jesus poor? I think Aye hit it on the head when he said Jesus did not worry about money, it did not preoccupy him and he encourages his disciples many times to not be worried about money, or food, or clothes, or other worldly things. This is very different than a disdain for wealth which some people like to think Jesus taught. Of course some saints like Francis took some of these passages literally and took a true vow of poverty - they still do today and literally do not own a thing. While this is beautiful in some regards I can't see myself preaching to the people to give away all their money to the government, the Church, the poor, a casino, or anywhere else. Most people in the pews are probably asking themselves how do I hold onto more of my money? How do I help them to see through this text that it is okay to have money; that you don't have to give everything to Cesear or even that you don't have to give all your money to God (with the possible exception of our new building fund, ha)?
Quick story - I went one time to Cesear's Palace in Atlantic City and at some point noticed many of my chips had Nero's image on them. Well, I started doing anything I could to get them out of my stack, upping my bets and the like. I think it put an early end to my only visit there. Nero is still causing at least one not so bright Christian problems.
October 11th, 2011 at 5:17:22 PM
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Quote: FrGambleWhat is the only thing that God created that He needs us to give him?
Since God is conceived as being perfect, omnipotent and complete, by definition he needs nothing.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
