Thoughts on Mt. 22:15-21
October 11th, 2011 at 5:34:03 PM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleHe wants us to freely choose Him over all the other stuff of this world.
But doesn't that just turn everything into a giant
game? The god game. I don't see the point. It
seems more likely that god is everything, including us,
and is everywhere. This is the conclusion native
cultures come to on their own, like the Native
Americans.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 5:37:43 PM
permalink
Quote: buzzpaffExcept the needle was a small entrance into a walled city. Camel had to be unloaded first, then down on his knees to enter. A little time consuming, that's all.
Really?
Well, that makes it a very good allegory as well for the rich into heaven....
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 11th, 2011 at 6:39:18 PM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleHe wants us to freely choose Him over all the other stuff of this world. Just a thought for now that needs some developing.
Isn't that asking a lot? If we're to believe that god made us in our own image then he should expect us to be skeptical. Be honest, how many Christians really put god above all other things in the world? Just where in their list of priorities is feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, as Jesus commanded his followers to do? I don't put the blame on the believers, as I think they are putting into their faith what they are getting out of it.
Sorry if this seems like ragging on religion in general, but I think the Father's comment leads me to this point.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 11th, 2011 at 7:05:41 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardBe honest, how many Christians really put god above all other things in the world?
My wife's whole family are rabid Christians, theres a
ton of them. They use god to 'get things'. They pray
for good weather, to win in the casino, that they'll
get a raise, or win the lottery. There's no end to it.
They think its perfectly normal, that because they
believe in god, he owes them things. Its rather
spooky to me, I stay out of it. Everything good that
happens, they thank god for. When something bad
happens, it baffles them. Wasn't god responsible
for that too?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 7:10:16 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobThey use god to 'get things'. They pray
for good weather, to win in the casino, that they'll
get a raise, or win the lottery.
How much do they give back to god?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 11th, 2011 at 7:13:45 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardHow much do they give back to god?
They all tithe, I guess thats their giving back. My wife
tithes, I don't ask because it would make me mad if
I knew how much.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 11th, 2011 at 7:20:35 PM
permalink
Wizard, I think that is a good point you raise. It is not ragging on religion to think of something I think of everyday, "How can I make the faith more important and intergral to the lives of believer?" How can I make God the center of people's lives? The biggest obstacle in this endevor is the thought that if I do put God above everything else He will take from me everything and I will go around chanting and hitting my head with hymnals like in Monty Python movies. I think Jesus wants us to live in this world and enjoy it. He does not want us to repudiate everything as evil or worthless. At the same time He obviously does not want us to get lost in this world and forget what is really important. He understands and knows we need to and should pay taxes. He also knows as humans we need to and should recreate, laugh, exercise, and eat well. He also knows that we will have doubts and have to go through difficult times. IMHO when we give everything to God he gives us back everything we had plus a royal flush! Faith in God makes the things this world offers us to enjoy even better, partly because we don't get consumed by them and partly because we see them more clearly as gifts.
On a side point it is amazing the paradox that often we recieve so much more fulfillment and deep seeded joy from feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc. then doing things that are more centered on ourselves. I think that often once someone experiences mission work or charitable service it becomes an important part of their lives that they need along with everything else to be happy. I know that my life's priorities were reshuffled when I started to seriously serve others.
On a side point it is amazing the paradox that often we recieve so much more fulfillment and deep seeded joy from feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc. then doing things that are more centered on ourselves. I think that often once someone experiences mission work or charitable service it becomes an important part of their lives that they need along with everything else to be happy. I know that my life's priorities were reshuffled when I started to seriously serve others.
October 12th, 2011 at 8:41:15 AM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearBeliever or not, that's quite disrespectful.
I was raised Jewish, but have come to a personal belief that God is an invention of man, not the other way around.
So, you agree with Nareed. Can you block yourself? I agree with her so block me.
October 12th, 2011 at 9:47:12 AM
permalink
I'm not sure what DM is trying to say. He did a bad job editing the quote tags....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 12th, 2011 at 9:55:41 AM
permalink
Whatever you think about the most is your god
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
October 13th, 2011 at 9:45:16 AM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm not sure what DM is trying to say. He did a bad job editing the quote tags....
I was trying to be specific to your point. Nareed said god was a fictional character and you jumped all over her, and then said people
invent their god. How flattering to the religious! So I jumped on you. Seems fair doesn't it?
October 13th, 2011 at 10:11:00 AM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleHow can I make God the center of people's lives? The biggest obstacle in this endevor is the thought that if I do put God above everything else He will take from me everything and I will go around chanting and hitting my head with hymnals like in Monty Python movies.
Why should anybody go "all in" for god, as you say? Does god even want us fawning all over him, or would he rather we live our lives normally like decent people? It doesn't seem like there is any payback for going the extra mile. It would be nice if it were like in Jesus' day where if you had faith you could heal the stick, walk on water, move mountains, etc.. You never see that today? Is it that nobody has enough faith or god has pulled back?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 13th, 2011 at 11:47:04 AM
permalink
Are you implying that I said that people invent their god? Re-read my posts.Quote: dmI was trying to be specific to your point. Nareed said god was a fictional character and you jumped all over her, and then said people
invent their god. How flattering to the religious! So I jumped on you. Seems fair doesn't it?
I said that I believe that god was invented by man. I make no claims that my belief is the correct scenario. I also make no assertation that other people should beleive the same as I do.
In fact, I was giving Nareed a hard time, not because of her beliefs, but because she makes claims about other people and their differing beliefs.
For the record, as I stated in other threads, I have a lot of respect for FrGamble and people like him, who dedicate their lives to their beliefs. I simply happen to have differing beliefs. You can read more about me and my beliefs on the FAQ page of my website: www.ReverendDaveMiller.com That's right: I'm a Reverend.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 13th, 2011 at 12:29:43 PM
permalink
We should push all in for God for the same reason he pushed all in for us - love. I know everybody is going, "ahh, isn't that cute", but this is powerful stuff. We don't truly love because of what is in it for us, we love because ...we love (very profound, I know). Let me try this again. God doesn't need us, nor does it make God more awesome or wonderful if we give Him ourselves in faith, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't WANT us to love Him. God desires us to love Him first of all because God is head over heels in love with us and hopes we respond to that love, kinda of like hoping that person we have a crazy crush on loves us back. Ultimately we hopefully love our spouse not just because of what it does for us but rather in the purest sense it is about what I can do for her/him. God knows that we are better off with him than without him. Maybe this is another reason why he compares faith in God to paying taxes. We get something out of paying taxes, we also get something from believing in God.
Okay, what do we get? There are plenty of miracles happening all over the place today. We wouldn't have any new saints if that wasn't the case and did you know John Paul II canonized as many saints as all his predecessors combined?!? Every saint needs a few confirmed miracles as proof of their place with Jesus in Heaven. Anyway I too wish we would see even more walking on water, moving mountains, etc. but God has drawn closer to us than ever in these times and He knows that we need hope, perseverance, and experiences of true selfless love more than dancing suns or the sick doing cartwheels. Let me say that I see these miracles every day - God is at work doing some awesome stuff in the lives and souls of people - that is truly miraculous!
Okay, what do we get? There are plenty of miracles happening all over the place today. We wouldn't have any new saints if that wasn't the case and did you know John Paul II canonized as many saints as all his predecessors combined?!? Every saint needs a few confirmed miracles as proof of their place with Jesus in Heaven. Anyway I too wish we would see even more walking on water, moving mountains, etc. but God has drawn closer to us than ever in these times and He knows that we need hope, perseverance, and experiences of true selfless love more than dancing suns or the sick doing cartwheels. Let me say that I see these miracles every day - God is at work doing some awesome stuff in the lives and souls of people - that is truly miraculous!
October 13th, 2011 at 1:06:34 PM
permalink
It will be interesting to see what you do with all this, Padre. I think your project to get some scripture feedback has been treated pretty roughly. But here you are fair game, alas!
I'll be impressed if you can turn the lemons into lemonade.
I'll be impressed if you can turn the lemons into lemonade.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 13th, 2011 at 1:19:34 PM
permalink
Quote: odiousgambit
I'll be impressed if you can turn the lemons into lemonade.
Don't want to start a works vs. grace thing but only God can save someone no matter how good of a priest he is. To God be the glory. I'm already impressed that he had the balls to come in these forums.
October 13th, 2011 at 1:45:56 PM
permalink
Quote: ikilledjerryloganDon't want to start a works vs. grace thing but only God can save someone no matter how good of a priest he is. To God be the glory. I'm already impressed that he had the balls to come in these forums.
That's Lutheran of you :)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 14th, 2011 at 3:13:20 AM
permalink
Quote: ikilledjerryloganI'm already impressed that he had the balls to come in these forums.
Agree. Of course we know what the precedent is for this. You can't have a better example to follow, yet I bet the reaction 'back home' would be the same criticism Jesus got.
I'd say he is doing an outstanding job except that he sometimes lays it on very thick with the kind of language you would use with avid Christian believers. That's his prerogative [and quite acceptable in a Homily] but I doubt that it accomplishes what he wants at all in the forum, and alienates some of his audience.
[Sorry, Padre, ikilledjerrylogan made his comment 3rd person style and I just stuck with that. I hope you are reading, I intend that as good advice, hope it is helpful]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 15th, 2011 at 9:40:55 PM
permalink
Okay, I don't know if it is long awaited or not but here is my homily for this weekend. Thanks again for everybody's help. I do think this thread and one about what is wrong with religion were helpful for me, I'd like to try this again next week if its okay.
I think the Wizard wanted me to post these here in the forum now instead of my blog so here it goes:
Questions about taxes are always difficult to answer? Lately we have been hearing a lot about taxes and plans that different presidential candidates propose. I’ve heard some talk about eliminating taxes altogether, some want to cut taxes, some want to raise taxes, I’ve even heard about something called the 9-9-9 plan? It is all so confusing and I think everybody knows it is a no win situation. Whatever your take on taxes it seems like somebody is going to be furious. In Jesus’ day it was similar and the Gospel recounts a tricky question posed to Jesus about should we pay the tax to Caesar or not? If Jesus says yes he is siding with an occupying and unwelcome government, imposing its will on his people; if Jesus says no he is fomenting sedition and an enemy to the state.
Somehow Christ recognizes this is a test and finds a third answer and transforms this trap into a teachable moment. It is kind of like a story I heard recently about a new pastor who arrives in town and wants to take a little tour of his parish. He hops on the bus to ride it around and notices that when he sits down the driver had given him an extra dollar in change. He thinks about just pocketing the money – it is a surprise gift from God for my ministry and the city would never miss just one dollar. Well at the end of the route he is getting off the bus and he hands the dollar back to the driver and says “you gave me too much change.” The driver responds, “Thanks Father, I was testing my new pastor, congratulations you passed, guess I‘ll see you on Sunday.”
There are a lot of things we could talk about in regards to Christ’s statement to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s.” We could say that Jesus is reminding us that Caesar doesn’t know what is going on and that the temporary things he values are nothing compared to the eternal and priceless things that last forever.
Jesus could also be reminding us of the separation of Church and State, and that our obligations as citizens do not disappear because we are Christian. This of course would also mean that we are obligated to speak out passionately for morality in government, for the protection of all human life, and the protections of our conscience which are under attack.
However, what if the main point of this Gospel is not about the analogy Jesus makes to taxes, but rather to be ready to tackle the complex questions about faith and life that come our way. The simple answers are not always the best ones, and most often complex and difficult questions require complex and difficult answers. Some classic examples of these types of big questions are: why do we suffer? Or what is the purpose of life? One easy answer is to say there is no meaning or purpose to suffering or life at all, we are all cosmic accidents caused by random acts of nature that has somehow always existed; so empty your mind and fill your belly and accept the cold stark reality that nothing really matters in the long run. I know that is a pretty awful thought and something inside us just recoils from this attempt at an answer. However another easy answer is to say our suffering or purpose is wrapped up in the mystery of God, just accept it, don’t question God and dare not doubt. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good and you are not so just grin and bear it. I’m not saying any of us here believe that this is the right answer either because something inside us must also say it is not correct. Like in the Gospel today is there a third answer that can transform this trap into a teachable moment for us?
Jesus who is the way, the truth, and the life leads us closer to a sufficient answer. Here is God who comes down from Heaven to share our lives with us. The suffering, the sorrow, the joys, and the happiness are all embraced by God. Emmanuel, God-with-us, shows us that part of the answer is a love that transcends the easy answers our minds are searching for with something that goes deeper inside us – and hits us in our hearts. The question of suffering and/or purpose in our lives seems closest to an answer when a loved one is holding our hand in the hospital, not in some debate in a chat room somewhere or in a theological tract. God is love! While this answer doesn’t seem to fill our logical heads completely it fills our bellies and our souls with a feeling that we are on the right track.
Another way this Gospel may bring us closer to an answer is to think of life as a test. God has given us something special, some extra change if you will on the bus, and He wants to see what we will do with it. Ultimately we are going to have to give everything back to God when our route is over, but what will we do during this ride we call life? Again this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism and the smugness of fideism. I don’t know the perfect answers to these complex questions but that won’t stop me from following the example of Jesus in trying to love others the best I can and using the God given gifts I have received in service of God and neighbor so that when I get off the bus the driver will say, “I was testing my pastor, congratulations you passed, I’ll see ya in Heaven.”
I think the Wizard wanted me to post these here in the forum now instead of my blog so here it goes:
Questions about taxes are always difficult to answer? Lately we have been hearing a lot about taxes and plans that different presidential candidates propose. I’ve heard some talk about eliminating taxes altogether, some want to cut taxes, some want to raise taxes, I’ve even heard about something called the 9-9-9 plan? It is all so confusing and I think everybody knows it is a no win situation. Whatever your take on taxes it seems like somebody is going to be furious. In Jesus’ day it was similar and the Gospel recounts a tricky question posed to Jesus about should we pay the tax to Caesar or not? If Jesus says yes he is siding with an occupying and unwelcome government, imposing its will on his people; if Jesus says no he is fomenting sedition and an enemy to the state.
Somehow Christ recognizes this is a test and finds a third answer and transforms this trap into a teachable moment. It is kind of like a story I heard recently about a new pastor who arrives in town and wants to take a little tour of his parish. He hops on the bus to ride it around and notices that when he sits down the driver had given him an extra dollar in change. He thinks about just pocketing the money – it is a surprise gift from God for my ministry and the city would never miss just one dollar. Well at the end of the route he is getting off the bus and he hands the dollar back to the driver and says “you gave me too much change.” The driver responds, “Thanks Father, I was testing my new pastor, congratulations you passed, guess I‘ll see you on Sunday.”
There are a lot of things we could talk about in regards to Christ’s statement to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s.” We could say that Jesus is reminding us that Caesar doesn’t know what is going on and that the temporary things he values are nothing compared to the eternal and priceless things that last forever.
Jesus could also be reminding us of the separation of Church and State, and that our obligations as citizens do not disappear because we are Christian. This of course would also mean that we are obligated to speak out passionately for morality in government, for the protection of all human life, and the protections of our conscience which are under attack.
However, what if the main point of this Gospel is not about the analogy Jesus makes to taxes, but rather to be ready to tackle the complex questions about faith and life that come our way. The simple answers are not always the best ones, and most often complex and difficult questions require complex and difficult answers. Some classic examples of these types of big questions are: why do we suffer? Or what is the purpose of life? One easy answer is to say there is no meaning or purpose to suffering or life at all, we are all cosmic accidents caused by random acts of nature that has somehow always existed; so empty your mind and fill your belly and accept the cold stark reality that nothing really matters in the long run. I know that is a pretty awful thought and something inside us just recoils from this attempt at an answer. However another easy answer is to say our suffering or purpose is wrapped up in the mystery of God, just accept it, don’t question God and dare not doubt. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good and you are not so just grin and bear it. I’m not saying any of us here believe that this is the right answer either because something inside us must also say it is not correct. Like in the Gospel today is there a third answer that can transform this trap into a teachable moment for us?
Jesus who is the way, the truth, and the life leads us closer to a sufficient answer. Here is God who comes down from Heaven to share our lives with us. The suffering, the sorrow, the joys, and the happiness are all embraced by God. Emmanuel, God-with-us, shows us that part of the answer is a love that transcends the easy answers our minds are searching for with something that goes deeper inside us – and hits us in our hearts. The question of suffering and/or purpose in our lives seems closest to an answer when a loved one is holding our hand in the hospital, not in some debate in a chat room somewhere or in a theological tract. God is love! While this answer doesn’t seem to fill our logical heads completely it fills our bellies and our souls with a feeling that we are on the right track.
Another way this Gospel may bring us closer to an answer is to think of life as a test. God has given us something special, some extra change if you will on the bus, and He wants to see what we will do with it. Ultimately we are going to have to give everything back to God when our route is over, but what will we do during this ride we call life? Again this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism and the smugness of fideism. I don’t know the perfect answers to these complex questions but that won’t stop me from following the example of Jesus in trying to love others the best I can and using the God given gifts I have received in service of God and neighbor so that when I get off the bus the driver will say, “I was testing my pastor, congratulations you passed, I’ll see ya in Heaven.”
October 15th, 2011 at 9:59:09 PM
permalink
Quote: FrGamble
Another way this Gospel may bring us closer to an answer is to think of life as a test.
I always have trouble with the 'life is a game' argument.
Its all a big test, a game to see if we pass muster. It just
doesn't feel right, its too pat, too simplistic. If it were true,
I'd be extremely disappointed. Its like the song "Is that all
there is?"
"I know what you must be saying to yourselves.
If that's the way she feels about it why doesn't she just end it all?
Oh, no. Not me. I'm in no hurry for that final disappointment.
For I know just as well as I'm standing here talking to you,
when that final moment comes and I'm breathing my last breath, I'll be saying to myself,"
"Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is"
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 15th, 2011 at 10:12:34 PM
permalink
Well said Father. No cross talk from me. Except that I had to look up fideism. For the benefit of others, it is a philosophy that faith and reason are incompatible and constantly in conflict, and that one must abandon reason to have pure faith. I hope I put that right.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 15th, 2011 at 10:19:26 PM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleAgain this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism
What despair of atheism?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 12:43:15 AM
permalink
I was going to ask the same question. I guess religious people think somehow that atheists live with despair. As an atheist, I don't have to kowtow to a bronze age invisible friend who lives on a cloud.Quote: NareedWhat despair of atheism?
And that makes me happy.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
October 16th, 2011 at 12:59:53 AM
permalink
Quote: NareedWhat despair of atheism?
Why do religious people always think atheists are in
despair? Its the opposite, as far I can tell. The atheists
I know are mostly happy, outgoing people. They
aren't thrashing around in despair, looking for the
correct path to follow. Most Mensa members are
atheists, despair would be the last word I would
use to describe them. Why can't religious people
be satisfied with the people they've recruited, just
hunker down with them and let the rest of us be
happy in our ignorance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 16th, 2011 at 3:13:04 AM
permalink
Thanks, very good. You set yourself up for some tough slogging and came out with a gem.
I vote for having the homilies as a blog. A blog says "here I am, read and comment if you wish, but it's also an acknowledgement that by its nature not everyone has to read it. Be aware of that as you comment." Often a blog post is made and the poster does not even expect anyone to reply. A post in the forum says "here's a statement up for grabs, all comments fair game"
Also, at some point you may lose the whereabouts of a post in a forum. You have a better record with a blog post. Your homilies deserve that. Of course you could do both.
I vote for having the homilies as a blog. A blog says "here I am, read and comment if you wish, but it's also an acknowledgement that by its nature not everyone has to read it. Be aware of that as you comment." Often a blog post is made and the poster does not even expect anyone to reply. A post in the forum says "here's a statement up for grabs, all comments fair game"
Also, at some point you may lose the whereabouts of a post in a forum. You have a better record with a blog post. Your homilies deserve that. Of course you could do both.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 16th, 2011 at 6:21:12 AM
permalink
Here is the context:
Again this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism and the smugness of fideism. I don’t know the perfect answers to these complex questions but that won’t stop me from following the example of Jesus in trying to love others the best I can and using the God given gifts I have received in service of God and neighbor so that when I get off the bus the driver will say, “I was testing my pastor, congratulations you passed, I’ll see ya in Heaven.”
I was not trying to say that all atheists are in despair, that is obviously not the case. I was using that as one extreme compared to the opposite extreme of the false confidence of fideism. I imagine lots of atheists are very happy living their lives. It is only when their philosophy is taken to extremes and they may begin to think that nothing I do makes any difference, that there is no inherent purpose to my existence and in the grand scheme of things we are all worm food and nothing else, that can depress some people.
Again this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism and the smugness of fideism. I don’t know the perfect answers to these complex questions but that won’t stop me from following the example of Jesus in trying to love others the best I can and using the God given gifts I have received in service of God and neighbor so that when I get off the bus the driver will say, “I was testing my pastor, congratulations you passed, I’ll see ya in Heaven.”
I was not trying to say that all atheists are in despair, that is obviously not the case. I was using that as one extreme compared to the opposite extreme of the false confidence of fideism. I imagine lots of atheists are very happy living their lives. It is only when their philosophy is taken to extremes and they may begin to think that nothing I do makes any difference, that there is no inherent purpose to my existence and in the grand scheme of things we are all worm food and nothing else, that can depress some people.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:38:37 AM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleHere is the context:
Again this idea is not a complete answer to these complex questions but it gives us an image that avoids the despair of atheism and the smugness of fideism. I don’t know the perfect answers to these complex questions but that won’t stop me from following the example of Jesus in trying to love others the best I can and using the God given gifts I have received in service of God and neighbor so that when I get off the bus the driver will say, “I was testing my pastor, congratulations you passed, I’ll see ya in Heaven.”
I was not trying to say that all atheists are in despair, that is obviously not the case. I was using that as one extreme compared to the opposite extreme of the false confidence of fideism. I imagine lots of atheists are very happy living their lives. It is only when their philosophy is taken to extremes and they may begin to think that nothing I do makes any difference, that there is no inherent purpose to my existence and in the grand scheme of things we are all worm food and nothing else, that can depress some people.
Look at it this way: If that thought despairs you, you become religious. If it doesn't, and you're ok with it, you shrug, and become (or remain) an atheist.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:15:18 AM
permalink
Quote: FrGambleI was not trying to say that all atheists are in despair, that is obviously not the case.
Then why the slur implicating otherwise?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 8:06:05 AM
permalink
Quote: MoscaLook at it this way: If that thought despairs you, you become religious. If it doesn't, and you're ok with it, you shrug, and become (or remain) an atheist.
Perfectly put. As FrG put it, I do believe that "there is no inherent purpose to my existence and in the grand scheme of things we are all worm food and nothing else." It doesn't depress me. For those it does, there are plenty of religions that provide a sense of purpose.
About the forum or blog, I encouraged FrG to put his homilies in the forum because they are sure to engender lots of comments. However, the choice is his, it was just a suggestion.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 16th, 2011 at 9:15:15 AM
permalink
Comments about the topic of the homily is one thing. Frankly, I enjoy the thought-provoking ideas and discussions presented.Quote: WizardAbout the forum or blog, I encouraged FrG to put his homilies in the forum because they are sure to engender lots of comments. However, the choice is his, it was just a suggestion.
However, hostility towards religion, or towards the lack of religion, is entirely different. Whether you believe or not is a personal issue. Do we really need to argue about it?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 16th, 2011 at 9:16:00 AM
permalink
Quote: MoscaLook at it this way: If that thought despairs you, you become religious. If it doesn't, and you're ok with it, you shrug, and become (or remain) an atheist.
That's not the point. The point is the bigotry inherent in negatively labeling a whole lot of people who share one thing in common.
And BTW, the idea that nothing matters and nothing makes a difference is called nihilism, not atheism. FrGamble should amend his remarks.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 9:51:30 AM
permalink
Quote: NareedAnd BTW, the idea that nothing matters and nothing makes a difference is called nihilism, not atheism. FrGamble should amend his remarks.
Reminds me of the movie The Big Lebowski. There are some very funny scenes about the distinction between atheists and nihilists.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 16th, 2011 at 10:03:33 AM
permalink
Quote: NareedThat's not the point. The point is the bigotry inherent in negatively labeling a whole lot of people who share one thing in common.
And this hasn't stopped you in the past now has it... (see football, baseball, night clubs, etc)? Hmm?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 16th, 2011 at 10:13:16 AM
permalink
Quote: thecesspitAnd this hasn't stopped you in the past now has it... (see football, baseball, night clubs, etc)? Hmm?
Football?
I've criticized activities or things, not the people who engage in them.
Now, if I were to say "..or to avoid the irrationality of faith. Not that all the faithful are irrational. I suppose some of them aren't. but I'm talking about taking religious belief to the extreme where one must wipe out those who don't share our belief." If I were to say that, you'd have a point.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 10:14:53 AM
permalink
Okay... It's called soccer, apparently... :)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 16th, 2011 at 10:29:19 AM
permalink
Quote: thecesspitOkay... It's called soccer, apparently... :)
Well, that's different.
BTW should someone ever discover 1) what the objective is in soccer and 2) why so many people enjoy it, the revelation will be so astounding they will have to institute a Nobel prize in anthropology :)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 11:25:17 AM
permalink
Quote: FrGamblethat there is no inherent purpose to my existence and in the grand scheme of things we are all worm food.
Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. Whats wrong with that?
Why does everything have to have a purpose? Whats the
purpose of a cat or a tree. Its just human arrogance, we
have to feel important. We're not...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 16th, 2011 at 11:29:02 AM
permalink
Quote: NareedThat's not the point. The point is the bigotry inherent in negatively labeling a whole lot of people who share one thing in common.
And BTW, the idea that nothing matters and nothing makes a difference is called nihilism, not atheism. FrGamble should amend his remarks.
I wasn't addressing your point, I was addressing the good FrGamble's. I felt yours stood on its own. And, it wasn't nihilism, but "the despair of atheism". His words. We both know that atheism does not necessarily lead to nihilism.
I think that he doesn't understand not despairing. From his perspective, I think this is understandable. Priests tend to preach to those who show up for mass, and thus have little practice among those who don't.
Perhaps FrGamble could use this as a topic for another sermon? Preaching that those who don't believe in a higher power aren't necessarily despairing, or evil? Because if you start with that as a premise, then your reasons for believing have to start with something other than avoiding despair.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 16th, 2011 at 11:39:33 AM
permalink
Quote: MoscaPerhaps FrGamble could use this as a topic for another sermon?
I would like to hear his thoughts on the modern purpose
of the Church. It was originally started because life was so
incredibly miserable that people had no hope. It never
got better, it was scrabbling for your very existence on
a daily basis. So heaven was invented so people could
believe this horrible life is just a test, the 'good' life
comes later, after you die. That reason has gone away,
life is no longer so horrible. The only reason I see for
the Church now is as social meeting place, and thats
just what it feels like when you go.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 16th, 2011 at 12:50:34 PM
permalink
Quote: MoscaI wasn't addressing your point, I was addressing the good FrGamble's. I felt yours stood on its own. And, it wasn't nihilism, but "the despair of atheism". His words. We both know that atheism does not necessarily lead to nihilism.
Sorry about the confusion.
I don't see how anyone would think atheism leads to despair. On the contrary, belief in a god seems more likely to induce despair. After all, there's this superior or supreme being with extraordinary powers, who is presumed to have a plan for his creation, and yet he permits atrocities to happen every day. He even commits atrocities of his own, such as destroying almost all life on land by fairly horrible means, or delivering horrid punishments for relatively minor infractions such as sneaking a peak when ordered not to.
That I see driving people to despair.
Nihilism, too. If you embrace the thought that nothing matters, despair or apathy would follow.
Quote:Perhaps FrGamble could use this as a topic for another sermon? Preaching that those who don't believe in a higher power aren't necessarily despairing, or evil? Because if you start with that as a premise, then your reasons for believing have to start with something other than avoiding despair.
Perhaps that would run counter to official Church doctrine.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 1:26:30 PM
permalink
Quote: NareedWell, that's different.
BTW should someone ever discover 1) what the objective is in soccer and 2) why so many people enjoy it, the revelation will be so astounding they will have to institute a Nobel prize in anthropology :)
Sigh. You just made my point EXACTLY. Thanks for that.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 16th, 2011 at 2:02:19 PM
permalink
Quote: thecesspitSigh. You just made my point EXACTLY. Thanks for that.
I object. I fail to see what's wrong with that post.
First I claimed soccer is different from Football, which is a thoroughly factual statement. You might as well object to a claim that oranges are different from onions.
Second, I implied the reason for soccer's popularity is so obscure that finding it would be a major scientific breakthrough, deserving of a Nobel prize. Alas, Nobel prizes are handed only for economics, chemistry, medicine and physics (the prize for left-wing activism isn't related to science).
Perhaps you think the breakthrough will be in psychology? It could be, I suppose, but I lean towards a cultural explanation. In any case, no slight was meant on psychologists. If the discovery is made in that area, the people involved can, and should, receive a Nobel in medicine.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
October 16th, 2011 at 2:29:56 PM
permalink
I didn't say there was anything wrong with the post.
So carry on objecting if you must. I don't really care that much to debate it here.
So carry on objecting if you must. I don't really care that much to debate it here.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
