gun show loophole rant
If you have laws that keep the guns out of criminal's hands, then why do have them? Perhaps the laws aren't adequate. The attitude that there are no laws that will keep guns out of criminals' hands is defeatist. At this point in time in American culture, that might be a good position to have.
However, if you just assume that criminals will have guns, then really one's only choice is to arm oneselves to the teeth and accept the gun deaths and suicides that you see today. I don't know if I accept that.
Quote: boymimboOkay, so according to the PBS article, the best way to cut down on guns sold to criminals is monitor the sellers for compliance. Fine. Create a law that will do that, then.
We already have plenty. But it is easier for anti-gun politicians to call for and pass a new law than to take the effort to enforce the ones we have. And when the cops do enforce the laws they get called "racist" and we hear how there are 2MM Americans in prison.
Quote:If you have laws that keep the guns out of criminal's hands, then why do have them? Perhaps the laws aren't adequate. The attitude that there are no laws that will keep guns out of criminals' hands is defeatist. At this point in time in American culture, that might be a good position to have.
Maybe this is because criminals do not care about the law? We have laws against shoplifting, selling dope, and auto theft. Yet all of these things still happen daily. Do we need more laws against these acts?
Quote:However, if you just assume that criminals will have guns, then really one's only choice is to arm oneselves to the teeth and accept the gun deaths and suicides that you see today. I don't know if I accept that.
There will ways be armed criminals preying on people. This has happened since the start if time and no matter how much we hope for rainbows and unicorns it will not change. I'd rather have the chance to be armed than accept living where the crooks are in charge of the streets. As to suicides they will happen no matter what. If you get rid of guns the person will just find another way.
Quote: s2dbakerA freedom loving projectile of liberty was set free from an unspecified weapon in Arizona. Unfortunately, a little girl was in the way. Not much else is known at the moment like for instance if a large angry mob was attacking or if a rapist was involved. More to come on this developing story.
This is the same as saying I once won standing on 16, so I always stand on 16.
Everytime you stand on 16, God shoots another one of your children?Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerA freedom loving projectile of liberty was set free from an unspecified weapon in Arizona. Unfortunately, a little girl was in the way. Not much else is known at the moment like for instance if a large angry mob was attacking or if a rapist was involved. More to come on this developing story.
This is the same as saying I once won standing on 16, so I always stand on 16.
Quote: s2dbakerEverytime you stand on 16, God shoots another one of your children?Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerA freedom loving projectile of liberty was set free from an unspecified weapon in Arizona. Unfortunately, a little girl was in the way. Not much else is known at the moment like for instance if a large angry mob was attacking or if a rapist was involved. More to come on this developing story.
This is the same as saying I once won standing on 16, so I always stand on 16.
I am referring to your using of anecdotes pretending to be statistically significant.
I don't know about that but I do know that I've posted a lot of stories which result in responsible gun owning parents burying an anecdote in the name of freedom, liberty and security.Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerEverytime you stand on 16, God shoots another one of your children?Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerA freedom loving projectile of liberty was set free from an unspecified weapon in Arizona. Unfortunately, a little girl was in the way. Not much else is known at the moment like for instance if a large angry mob was attacking or if a rapist was involved. More to come on this developing story.
This is the same as saying I once won standing on 16, so I always stand on 16.
I am referring to your using of anecdotes pretending to be statistically significant.
Quote: s2dbakerI don't know about that but I do know that I've posted a lot of stories which result in responsible gun owning parents burying an anecdote in the name of freedom, liberty and security.
...and you ignore the stories about responsible gun owners who protect themselves from criminals
Perhaps I do. Maybe you could post one or two that happened this year. We'll keep a tally. I'll post stories about responsible gun owners killing or injuring themselves or their loved ones and you post stories about angry mobs being shoo'd away because of a responsible gun owner exercising his second amendment right and we'll see who is kept busier. To make it fair, you only have to post one for my 10 and we'll make it for the month of April. How's that? You only have to post three stories about three different incidents that take place next month and I would have to post 31 to beat you. Fair?Quote: Beethoven9th...yet you ignore the stories about responsible gun owners who protect themselves from criminals.
Quote: s2dbakerPerhaps I do. Maybe you could post one or two that happened this year. We'll keep a tally. I'll post stories about responsible gun owners killing or injuring themselves or their loved ones and you post stories about angry mobs being shoo'd away because of a responsible gun owner exercising his second amendment right and we'll see who is kept busier. To make it fair, you only have to post one for my 10 and we'll make it for the month of April. How's that? You only have to post three stories about three different incidents that take place next month and I would have to post 31 to beat you. Fair?
Nah, I'm not much into pissing contests. (BTW, I did post a bunch of links earlier in this thread, yet you ignored them)
anything from this year?Quote: Beethoven9thNah, I'm not much into pissing contests. (BTW, I did post a bunch of links earlier in this thread, yet you ignored them)
Quote: s2dbakerI don't know about that but I do know that I've posted a lot of stories which result in responsible gun owning parents burying an anecdote in the name of freedom, liberty and security.Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerEverytime you stand on 16, God shoots another one of your children?Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: s2dbakerA freedom loving projectile of liberty was set free from an unspecified weapon in Arizona. Unfortunately, a little girl was in the way. Not much else is known at the moment like for instance if a large angry mob was attacking or if a rapist was involved. More to come on this developing story.
This is the same as saying I once won standing on 16, so I always stand on 16.
I am referring to your using of anecdotes pretending to be statistically significant.
Stop or my grandma will shoot.
http://www.vindy.com/news/2013/mar/28/72-year-old-woman-thrwarts-home-robbery-attempt/?nw
The guy had tattoos all over his face. Maybe we should ban tattoos on the face since they directly cause addiction to crack and criminal activity. Post more stories of criminals addicted to crack causing crime if you believe the first amendment is too dangerous. Our forefathers never even imagined people would tattoo their face and we need to seize the moment and ban them.
............sarcasm loading, please wait.
Quote: s2dbakeranything from this year?
Off the top of my head, I believe a couple of them were.
Quote: Beethoven9th...and you ignore the stories about responsible gun owners who protect themselves from criminals
Because that doesn't fit with his vision of the average gun owner being some kind of unintelligent, irresponsible redneck who doesn't know the civil war is over and lives in some kind of shack.
Point out the fact that just .02% of guns in the USA will cause a death in any given year and he will just post another link. Tell him he is free not to own a gun and he will post another link. He it a gunphobe. Tolerance for your rights is not his concern.
Two this year, awesome. Were they like this guy?Quote: Beethoven9thOff the top of my head, I believe a couple of them were.
This is why I give you the 10 to 1 handicap. I figured that would be acceptable.Quote: Beethoven9thQuote: s2dbakerTwo this year, awesome. Were they like this guy?
The MSM doesn't report every single instance of guns being used for protection or to deter criminal activity. It just doesn't suit their agenda.
Quote: s2dbakerThis is why I give you the 10 to 1 handicap. I figured that would be acceptable.
Like I said, pissing contests really aren't my kind of thing. But perhaps another gun rights supporter will take you up on your offer? (It actually sounds somewhat reasonable)
Quote: s2dbakerI'll even allow this one for your side even though it's clearly an execution rather than self-defense.
And what new gun law do you want to prevent this?
Quote: Beethoven9thLike I said, pissing contests really aren't my kind of thing. But perhaps another gun rights supporter will take you up on your offer? (It actually sounds somewhat reasonable)
Good call! Don't feed the trolls.
Quote: AZDuffmanPoint out the fact that just .02% of guns in the USA will cause a death in any given year and he will just post another link. Tell him he is free not to own a gun and he will post another link. He is a gunphobe. Tolerance for your rights is not his concern.
'Gunphobe'.....I like that one! (Thanks AZ, I have to remember that) Another good one I heard is 'firearms equality'.
Liberals who oppose gun rights are gunphobes who want to deny equal rights for gun owners...
Quote: Beethoven9th'Gunphobe'.....I like that one! (Thanks AZ, I have to remember that) Another good one I heard is 'firearms equality'.
Liberals who oppose gun rights are gunphobes who want to deny equal rights for gun owners...
I have my moments.
All we want is to keep the firearm of our choice.
.02% is one in every 5000 each year. I wish my odds were that good hitting a minor jackpot on a slot machine. It's no wonder that I have no difficulty finding stories about dead responsible gun owners.Quote: AZDuffmanPoint out the fact that just .02% of guns in the USA will cause a death in any given year and he will just post another link.
Quote: AZDuffmanI have my moments.
All we want is to keep the firearm of our choice.
Ah, even better! Let me modify my statement: "Liberals who oppose gun rights are anti-choice gunphobes who want to deny equal rights for gun owners." You gotta love it!
Quote: Beethoven9thQuote: AZDuffmanI have my moments.
All we want is to keep the firearm of our choice.
Ah, even better! Let me modify my statement: "Liberals who oppose gun rights are anti-choice gunphobes who want to deny equal rights for gun owners." You gotta love it!
Perhaps we should add in about it being a health choice. And a liberal war on gun owners?
Really, as the stories above illustrate, you are totally doing a good enough job on your own without our help. (haha)Quote: AZDuffmanAnd a liberal war on gun owners?
Quote: AZDuffmanPerhaps we should add in about it being a health choice. And a liberal war on gun owners?
Even better! (haha)
Quote: Beethoven9thBut perhaps another gun rights supporter will take you up on your offer?
Not me. 45-55 million American gun owners keep 310 million guns.
s2dbaker listed 20 issues. I’ll save him future leg work; is about 35,000 a year.
~35,000 are an issue. 44,965,000 are not. No links are necessary.
So your chances of an incident per year is slightly better than 1 in 1600.Quote: FaceNot me. 45-55 million American gun owners keep 310 million guns.
s2dbaker listed 20 issues. I’ll save him future leg work; is about 35,000 a year.
~35,000 are an issue. 44,965,000 are not. No links are necessary.
Quote: s2dbakerSo your chances of an incident per year is slightly better than 1 in 1600.
20,000 are suicide.
Yeah, 99.98% of guns don't cause deaths. Is that good enough?
Quote: boymimbo
Yeah, 99.98% of guns don't cause deaths. Is that good enough?
It is. As was previously posted, over half of gun deaths are suicides. If you stay out of a gang you drop your chances of a gun death far further. There is risk in life, deal with it.
Quote: s2dbakerA self-defense story from the recent past. Turns out a guy with a gun was approached by a mugger and scared him off by valiantly shooting himself in the groin.
Ok I love big brother now, so give it up already. The only point you're making is shit happens.
Quote: FaceNot me. 45-55 million American gun owners keep 310 million guns.
s2dbaker listed 20 issues. I’ll save him future leg work; is about 35,000 a year.
~35,000 are an issue. 44,965,000 are not. No links are necessary.
Touché...excellent point.
Quote: boymimbo99.98% of guns don't cause deaths.
The defense rests.
Lol, j/k =) But really, look at that number. For a "machine that has no purpose other than to kill people" (not a boymimbo quote), that is nothing short of astounding. These supposed "death machines" that have "little to no" control mechanisms exist in greater numbers yet cause less deaths than the oft suggested and highly regulated car ownership game. Regulate guns like cars? Seems we should regulate cars as we do guns.
That's not serious, in case you couldn't tell. Just pointing out the broken logic. And, boymimbo, it was more a broad stroke rant than directed at you.
If you want to NICS every purchase, go ahead. I doubt you'll have a protest war over that. It'll probably be a waste of taxpayer money, as I've proved, but hey, when aren't our dollars wasted? And, it might make a difference, so let's give it a shot. Make a gun safe law? Unenforcable, but again, no one's going to wage a war over it, it's just too silly. Perhaps simply bringing it to attention might cause more people to give it a second thought and get a quick release safe like mine for when the kiddos are around. Try it and see. I don't care, and I doubt many gunners are gonna lose sleep over it.
But tell me I can't have more than 7 rounds in my gun because you don't see the point, or that I can't have an AR for SD because you don't think I need one (not "boymimbo" you, "generic" you), then we have a problem. Not because "we ain't losin' our dadgum firearms!", or because "ehrmegerd, 2nd Amerndmernt!", but because it has no basis in fact. Of that mere .02% of guns that became a problem, only 1% of that .02% are the types of guns targeted by this bullshit. All of this, every Christing bit of all this arguing, is over .0002% of America's guns i.e. the scary assault rifle that fell into the hands of a crazy person.
3,750,000 ARs in America. 375 is the number of deaths caused by ALL rifles; old school bolt actions like my Mosin, newer pumps like the Remington 760 "Amish Rifle", and the big, bad AR. Even if all 375 were a bleeding Bushmaster, is all of this worth it? Is any little bit of this worth it?
I don't think so, and can't understand how anyone could. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to find another wall to put my head through.
Quote:The so-called straw purchase of guns is "the most significant factor in gun trafficking, without any question," said Jack Killorin, director of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' Atlanta field division.
Sometimes, the real buyers walk into the gun store to help with the purchase. Other times, they may wait outside the door. A friend or accomplice with no criminal record easily can pass the federal Brady Act's required background check, then turn over the gun.
"That, in many ways, is the reality of ... getting a gun in Chicago," said David Hoffman, a local federal prosecutor.
Guns obtained through such straw purchases account for nearly a third of the firearms involved in federal gun trafficking investigations, according to an ATF analysis covering cases handled from 1996 through 1998.
Let me guess without looking it up, gun rights activists have opposed strengthening straw purchase laws in the past.
Okay, I looked it up:
Quote:Today a state can impose a death sentence or life in prison on someone who commits murder with a firearm. But the “What, me worry?” gun dealer, who supplies multiple murderers with guns he claims were “stolen” from his inventory, guns he never recorded on his books, or guns he sold to straw buyers with a wink and a nod, can operate with virtual impunity, thanks to laws written by the NRA.
One of these, passed in 1986, drastically reduced penalties for dealers who violate record-keeping laws, making violations misdemeanors rather than felonies. Another established an absurdly high standard of proof to convict dealers who sell to criminals. In 2003, Congress, at the NRA’s urging, barred the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the much-maligned agency responsible for enforcing federal gun laws, from forcing dealers to conduct inventory inspections that would detect lost and stolen guns. Car dealers like to know when inventory goes missing. Gun dealers? Not so curious.
here
here
Quote: rxwineLet me guess without looking it up, gun rights activists have opposed strengthening straw purchase laws in the past.
Let me guess, you didn't realize there were already laws against the aforementioned practice so you went looking for a bad guy where none existed. What law would you like enacted? Are you looking to make illegal straw purchases... illegaler?
And thanks for linking to Salon.com that bastion of unbiased reporting.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyLet me guess, you didn't realize there were already laws against the aforementioned practice so you went looking for a bad guy where none existed. What law would you like enacted? Are you looking to make illegal straw purchases... illegaler?
And thanks for linking to Salon.com that bastion of unbiased reporting.
I think he forgot to mention one of the biggest enablers of "straw purchases"-- Eric Holder and the Obama Admninistration in Operation Fast and Furious. Intentionally sold guns they knew would make it to Mexican gangs, getting one of our border agents killed.
Funny, S2 didn't post a link to that.
Quote: AZDuffmanI think he forgot to mention one of the biggest enablers of "straw purchases"-- Erik Holder and the Obama Admninistration in Operation Fast and Furious. Intentionally sold guns they knew would make it to Mexican gangs, getting one of our border agents killed.
Funny, S2 didn't post a link to that.
Ah, but that wasn't accidental, that was on purpose, so it doesn't count.
Create harsher penalities for straw purchases of guns and perhaps some of these guns will no longer be in the hands of criminals.
Quote: boymimboThe purpose of Fast and Furious (which was the same but larger than Bush's Operation Wide Receiver, which was a gun walking program where only 64 of 474 guns were recovered) is to catch entire arms trafficking networks by intentionally selling arms to go to Mexican cartels via straw purchases. It failed not because of Obama but because of lower level DoJ officials and ATF officials. However, we can blame Obama for exercising his executive privilege over documents.
We can blame Obama for being the boss, that's how it works in business (though I know we're all painfully aware of his lack of anything approaching practical business experience). We can blame Obama for letting Holder, etc keep their jobs in the face of this failure. But I digress, there are other threads for that.
Quote: boymimbo
Create harsher penalities for straw purchases of guns and perhaps some of these guns will no longer be in the hands of criminals.
So then, that puts you squarely in the "make straw purchases illegaler" camp. That's right up there with "Hey stop that, or I'll tell you to stop again." The federal penalty is up to 10 years in prison (which is pretty illegal from where I'm standing), in actual practice I believe the article stated that the average sentence is 1 1/2 years. Do you have any theories on why that might be?
Quote: boymimboThe purpose of Fast and Furious (which was the same but larger than Bush's Operation Wide Receiver, which was a gun walking program where only 64 of 474 guns were recovered) is to catch entire arms trafficking networks by intentionally selling arms to go to Mexican cartels via straw purchases. It failed not because of Obama but because of lower level DoJ officials and ATF officials. However, we can blame Obama for exercising his executive privilege over documents.
Create harsher penalities for straw purchases of guns and perhaps some of these guns will no longer be in the hands of criminals.
No it was NOT the same. The Bush program had RFID tracking devices in the guns to follow them. When they found the bad guys were finding and removing the chips the Bush program was stopped cold. The Obama plan never was to track the guns but to hopefully find them later. Also Obama had the advantage of a Justice Department that could say, "we tried this before, it didn't work."
You are correct about Obama and Holder not releasing documents, however.
Theories? Enforce current laws. Just like cars, license the firearm so that every year, the firearm must be accountable. If the owner of the gun can't account for the firearm, chuck him in prison. That means that if the firearm is sold, fill out the paperwork and submit to the government for approval (background check). If the firearm is stolen get a police report within 7 days, else prosecute.
Quote: boymimboMy point was that Obama's program was not the first. The Bush program was. AZ was attempting to bring in politics, and it needed to be pointed out. We could also extend that to the massive amount of arms that Carter then Reagin gave UBL and the mujajideen to combat the Soviets in the 80s which penuntimately ended up in 9/11.
I'm going to resist going down this road, but before I do, I have to say I doubt any arms sold and/or given to the Mujahideen were used in 9/11, if that's your point I think you're stretching. If you're trying to say the Mujahideen were the precursors to the current Islamic fundamentalist in that region, I'm at a loss as to why this needs explaining, I thought we all pretty much knew this.
Quote: boymimbo
Theories? Enforce current laws. Just like cars, license the firearm so that every year, the firearm must be accountable. If the owner of the gun can't account for the firearm, chuck him in prison. That means that if the firearm is sold, fill out the paperwork and submit to the government for approval (background check). If the firearm is stolen get a police report within 7 days, else prosecute.
Are you going out of your way to not answer the question? The current laws ARE enforced, it's the penalties that are weak. Do you have any theories as to why THAT might be?
link to examiner.com
Quote:“It's amazing how much traction that RFID story gets,” Detty replied. “While there were a couple times during Wide Receiver that tracking devices were placed on cars there was not a single weapon that was outfitted with any kind of tracking instrument.”
“They had a unit that they tried to place in the hollowed out butt of a Yugo AK,” he explained. “While they were trying to get it to work I called a buddy who works with one of the most elite military units in the world. He told me, ‘there will be two limiting factors. One is battery life and the other is that if they have to wrap the antenna around the unit to get it to fit it will never work correctly. I know because we've tried it too.’ He was exactly right! The unit never worked correctly and was never fielded.”
I will admit something however in that the Phoenix ATF field agent's plan (not Obama himself) which was approved by some people in ATF and DoJ was a terrible plan that resulted in the death of an innocent American.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI'm going to resist going down this road, but before I do, I have to say I doubt any arms sold and/or given to the Mujahideen were used in 9/11, if that's your point I think you're stretching. If you're trying to say the Mujahideen were the precursors to the current Islamic fundamentalist in that region, I'm at a loss as to why this needs explaining, I thought we all pretty much knew this.
Then I guess we also need to know that the reason why there is so much murder and violence in Mexico is because of North America's insatiable desire for illegal drugs and the ability for Mexicans to easily smuggle arms back to Mexico through illegal purchases.
