Worst day in USA, ever?
Poll
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16 members have voted
Quote: fremont4ever* The day Reagan fired those air traffic controllers. It's been open season on unions ever since, and they haven't done very well. Coincidentally, or not, the rich have gotten richer and everyone else has suffered (relatively speaking).
Other bad days I couldn't put into a single day include the start of the Civil War (if it hadn't been Ft. Sumter, it would have been something else), the Dust Bowl, and the real estate crash.
That was a pretty good day. A union tried to hold up the country and POTUS said "NO!" After he fired them the USSR thought he was both nuts (how would we fly planes?) and someone to be taken seriously. I could care less about "unions doing well." Most industries with heavy unionization have fared poorly and unions turned socialist long ago.
Quote: thecesspitStill, two country reunified into one...
Here's another one for you : North and South Vietnam.
I'd also not be surprised to see an eventual reunification of Moldova and Rumania.
China has also been split and recombined several times in it's history. It's the sort of thing that does happen, and the hard part will depend on the reason for the split in the first place (cultural/ethnic or political).
You are making my point for me. My statement was two countries rarely unify into one unless there is a war or some other disaster."
GDR was a failure
S Vietnam was defeated in a war.
China may again split, even in our lifetime.
On the OP, today will make the top-10. USA debt downgraded for the first time ever because a POTUS and one party refuse to accept real spending cuts. But that is another thread.
Quote: AZDuffmanYou are making my point for me. My statement was two countries rarely unify into one unless there is a war or some other disaster."
GDR was a failure
S Vietnam was defeated in a war.
China may again split, even in our lifetime.
On the OP, today will make the top-10. USA debt downgraded for the first time ever because a POTUS and one party refuse to accept real spending cuts. But that is another thread.
You really need to review both the debt discussions and S&P's decision. The cuts in the compromise were LESS than Obama wanted, because the GOP wanted the debt ceiling increase to last for a shorter time for political reasons. Also, much of S&P's decision hinged on the lack of inclusion of increased tax revenues. Which party stone-walled on that?
Quote: rdw4potusYou really need to review both the debt discussions and S&P's decision. The cuts in the compromise were LESS than Obama wanted, because the GOP wanted the debt ceiling increase to last for a shorter time for political reasons. Also, much of S&P's decision hinged on the lack of inclusion of increased tax revenues. Which party stone-walled on that?
Obama put no plan for cuts out there. Democrats have not proposed and passed a budget in 800 days.
Debt ceiling is not the issue. We could make the authorized debt $100 Trillion and it wouldn't matter, if we can't pay we can't pay. Liabilities are still the same.
We have a spending problem, not a tax problem. Well, the tax problem we have is the bottom 40% paying zero in income taxes. Spending since WWII has been around 20% of GDP, since Obama it is 25%. I get amazed how many people say they *want* higher taxes. Of course, they mean they want higher taxes on *someone else.*
We have run out of OPM.
Quote: AZDuffmanObama put no plan for cuts out there. Democrats have not proposed and passed a budget in 800 days.
The deal that Cantor effectively walked away from was $3-4T in reductions (depending on the exact subsequent specific recommendations), expiration of the Bush tax cuts for the rich, extension of the payroll tax holiday, and a debt ceiling increase to last through 2013. Of course Obama didnt put a plan for cuts out there. No one did. There wasn't time. They all proposed pretty much what happened - a number and a mechanism for identifying the cuts later.
Quote: rdw4potusThe deal that Cantor effectively walked away from was $3-4T in reductions (depending on the exact subsequent specific recommendations), expiration of the Bush tax cuts for the rich, extension of the payroll tax holiday, and a debt ceiling increase to last through 2013. Of course Obama didnt put a plan for cuts out there. No one did. There wasn't time. They all proposed pretty much what happened - a number and a mechanism for identifying the cuts later.
The "tax cuts for the rich" attitude is the problem. I have never in my life seen so many so high up in politics so worked up over one policy. One that worked, as well. It is Obama's "white whale." For some reason it drives the left crazy that people are paying a lower rate than before. Their greed to raise taxes has turned some of them absolutely crazy.
We are going to have to get serious and soon. Too bad as soon as a serious plan is put out there Democrats show ads of old women in wheelchairs being pushed off cliffs. Then they have the gall to claim to be the "adults in the room."
Today isn't the "worst day." The worst day will be when the Treasury puts $500 Billion of notes on auction and only $300 Billion is subscribed. THEN there will be cuts.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe "tax cuts for the rich" attitude is the problem. I have never in my life seen so many so high up in politics so worked up over one policy. One that worked, as well. It is Obama's "white whale." For some reason it drives the left crazy that people are paying a lower rate than before. Their greed to raise taxes has turned some of them absolutely crazy.
We are going to have to get serious and soon. Too bad as soon as a serious plan is put out there Democrats show ads of old women in wheelchairs being pushed off cliffs. Then they have the gall to claim to be the "adults in the room."
Today isn't the "worst day." The worst day will be when the Treasury puts $500 Billion of notes on auction and only $300 Billion is subscribed. THEN there will be cuts.
I don't disagree with you. But, let me make my specific point more succintly: Eric Cantor of the GOP torpedoed a deal containing the EXACT set of terms that would have kept S&P from downgrading the sovereign debt of the United States of America.
Quote: rdw4potusI don't disagree with you. But, let me make my specific point more succintly: Eric Cantor of the GOP torpedoed a deal containing the EXACT set of terms that would have kept S&P from downgrading the sovereign debt of the United States of America.
Lets hope it is a wakeup call. I doubt it will be, but will be glad I am wrong if it is.
BTW: my guess is they knew they would do this monday but waited for the currency markets close for the weekend. I've been practice trading FOREX and can't wait to see the reaction. The USD fell fast when Obama gave his address like 2 weeks ago, as soon as he started talking dropped 30-40 pips in 30 seconds. What will this bring?
Quote: AZDuffmanYou are making my point for me. My statement was two countries rarely unify into one unless there is a war or some other disaster."
GDR was a failure
S Vietnam was defeated in a war.
China may again split, even in our lifetime.
Fair do's. I misread your first statement. However, the reason is war/collapse, but the longer term ability to stay together is probably due to a shared culture/history rather than some lines drawn on a map (see: Sudan, Czech and Slovakia, Former Yugoslavia etc...)
Quote:On the OP, today will make the top-10. USA debt downgraded for the first time ever because a POTUS and one party refuse to accept real spending cuts. But that is another thread.
The down step in rating is more a embarassment for the US than a worst ever day. Except if it leads to the next downgrade. And the next.
Quote: thecesspitFair do's. I misread your first statement. However, the reason is war/collapse, but the longer term ability to stay together is probably due to a shared culture/history rather than some lines drawn on a map (see: Sudan, Czech and Slovakia, Former Yugoslavia etc...)
No problem, I figured as much. BTW: The case of Checoslovakia is interesting. Perhaps the friendliest "divorce" of parts of a country in history. And I hear these days they sort of regret the split, thiniking they got along pretty well before.
OTOH, look at the disaster of the unification of Yemen.
Quote: rxwineI mean long term., that is. Even if not shot down, it just seems like a floating weight ready to fall if there's a serious problem.
I tell people all the time that I swear all the issues you get operating planes and boats are God's way of telling us we are not supposed to be in the air or on the water.
Quote: AZDuffmanThat was a pretty good day. A union tried to hold up the country and POTUS said "NO!" After he fired them the USSR thought he was both nuts (how would we fly planes?) and someone to be taken seriously. I could care less about "unions doing well." Most industries with heavy unionization have fared poorly and unions turned socialist long ago.
As bad as things have gone for unions and their members over the past 30 years, non-union workers (at least those outside the owner/executive class) have arguably done worse. Much of it was/is unavoidable, but until China, India, etc. catch up with us, it's going to be a rough ride.
Quote: rxwineNot fully confirmed -- it could be one of worse days for U.S. special forces. Damn, I swear I never could understand anyone who'd want to fly helicopters -- I mean long term., that is. Even if not shot down, it just seems like a floating weight ready to fall if there's a serious problem.
It looks like August 6, 2011 is the worst day of the Afghan war. That is 66 years after the August 6 bombing of Hiroshima. It's also my birthday. Anyone else have a horrible anniversary on their birthday?
Quote: pacomartinAnyone else have a horrible anniversary on their birthday?
My dad died on my birthday.
Jewish custom is for the death to be marked by the Jewish lunar calendar. This means the dates won't coincide often. Also fortunately for me I'm not fond of celebrating my birthday.
Quote: fremont4everAs bad as things have gone for unions and their members over the past 30 years, non-union workers (at least those outside the owner/executive class) have arguably done worse. Much of it was/is unavoidable, but until China, India, etc. catch up with us, it's going to be a rough ride.
I don't know that I would say that at all. Unskilled work does not pay as high as it used to, but that would have happened anyways. My job has loads of flexibility and even the less flexible ones I have had are better than was there 30 years ago. 30 years ago, did you have jobs with tuition reinbursement? 30 years ago if you left a job mid-career you were very tainted, not anymore at least not nearly as much. Your retirement savings travel with you via 401(k).
Yes, the guy cleaninbg the bathrooms in the mill is no longer making $30K/yr. But that was not sustainable no matter what. Pay is based on productivity. IOW, if you labor produces $15/hr in value you can't be paid more than $15/hr over the long haul. You will have to be paid even less than that to allow for profit and other costs.
Labor unions can't grasp this concept.
Quote: pacomartinAnyone else have a horrible anniversary on their birthday?Quote: rxwineNot fully confirmed -- it could be one of worse days for U.S. special forces. Damn, I swear I never could understand anyone who'd want to fly helicopters -- I mean long term., that is. Even if not shot down, it just seems like a floating weight ready to fall if there's a serious problem.
I woke up on my birthday to news of a skyscraper getting hit by an airliner.
The problems with unions isn't ours. The problem with unions is that in much of the world companies and governments have no problem bulldozing striking workers. We have to be competitive with people who work without organization out of fear.
Quote: AZDuffmanI don't know that I would say that at all. Unskilled work does not pay as high as it used to, but that would have happened anyways. My job has loads of flexibility and even the less flexible ones I have had are better than was there 30 years ago. 30 years ago, did you have jobs with tuition reinbursement? 30 years ago if you left a job mid-career you were very tainted, not anymore at least not nearly as much. Your retirement savings travel with you via 401(k).
Yes, the guy cleaninbg the bathrooms in the mill is no longer making $30K/yr. But that was not sustainable no matter what. Pay is based on productivity. IOW, if you labor produces $15/hr in value you can't be paid more than $15/hr over the long haul. You will have to be paid even less than that to allow for profit and other costs.
Labor unions can't grasp this concept.
Your economic statements are close to the so called "labor theory of value" while ancient Greek in concept, was popularized in the mid 19th century by David Ricardo building on some ideas of Adam Smith. Ricardo's theory was taken up by the "Ricardo Socialists" and became a central idea in the theories developed by Karl Marx.
Guess what gang, Duffman is a Marxist. Who could have predicted this turn of events?
Back on the subject at hand, two very bad days that I had forgotten to mention were the signing of UIGEA and Black Friday. No one died, but hundreds of millions of dollars (billions?) were put into limbo at the whimsy of the U.S. government and its Justice Department.
Actually, I would add the day that congress authorized war in Iraq thus resulting in the end of life for approximately 100,000 civilians of that country at the hands of the coalition-led Americans and ending any empathy that anyone had for the United States as a result of 9/11. From the false intelligence briefing by Colin Powell at the United Nations to the outright lies told to the American people to garnish support for the war to over four thousand military deaths and over 30,000 injuries lost as a direct result of military action to the 800 billion spent on the wartime activity itself, that action for me represents the most embarassing and worst day in American history. The war was completely unnecessary and morally incomprehensible.
It's nothing compared to any stupid stock market loss. It's only money, folks, and the market will return to its usual self.
Quote: AZDuffmanBut that was not sustainable no matter what. Pay is based on productivity. IOW, if you labor produces $15/hr in value you can't be paid more than $15/hr over the long haul. You will have to be paid even less than that to allow for profit and other costs.
Labor unions can't grasp this concept.
If we can bring a Chinese worker over right now to do your job for half of what you make, why should anyone pay you anything?
I'm pretty sure we could do that. Probably a thousand times over.
Why protect workers from anything? We can run right over them if we just get rid of some more restrictions.
