"Authentic" Ethnic Foods

I didn't want to derail the Wizard's Spanish Word of the Day thread. Over there, there was some brief comments about Mexican food, and the Wizard asked if there was any way to determine if a Mexican restaurant had "authentic" Mexican food.

Personally, I have no way of knowing about that. I know what I like. Gonzales y Gonzales in the New York New York casino has pork carnitas that I really like, and every time I go to Vegas, I definitely have at least one meal there. I don't think that GyG is necessarily "authentic", but I do like the taste of those pork carnitas.

However, my true question is, what defines ethnic food as being "authentic"?

My mom is Korean, and I grew up eating "Korean" food. Well, that is until the first time I went to a Korean restaurant, ordered the same thing my mom makes, and found out it was different. In fact, it's hard for me to eat at a Korean restaurant, because I have this mental framework of what the food should taste like, based upon how my mom made it. I can eat at other ethnic restaurants, because I have no basis, and no way of knowing that some particular, say, German restaurant, isn't quite authentic.

I've asked other people if they've noticed the same phenomenon. Well, ok, here in Phoenix that means mostly other Mexican people. But they've all mentioned that, yes, what they've eaten in Mexican restaurants isn't quite the same as the way their parents or grandparents made it at home.

And that's not to say that the food at the restaurant isn't good, it usually is. I've found Korean restaurants with delicious dishes. They're just not the same.

Anyway, I guess I also wonder if other "ethnic" people have this issue with food at their corresponding "ethnic" restaurants.

I'm not Chinese, but I can speak to the topic of Chinese food pretty well. As I mentioned in the Spanish word of the Day thread, a good litmus test to tell if a Chinese restaurant is somewhat authentic is whether they have duck feek and chicken feet on the menu. It is not hard to find such restaurants in any major US city. I've found that Chinese people don't put down the angofied Chinese food, and eat it sometimes. In my five visits to China there is a much wider range of what counts as Chinese food that what you see here.

Quote: konceptum

However, my true question is, what defines ethnic food as being "authentic"?

Very good question. Like all good questions, though, the answer isn't so good.

Quote:

My mom is Korean, and I grew up eating "Korean" food. Well, that is until the first time I went to a Korean restaurant, ordered the same thing my mom makes, and found out it was different.

About that, keep in mind that home made food is always different from restaurant food.

You remind me of a similar occurence. We had a cook growing up, in fact she's still employed by my mother, who's really, really good. One thing she makes is goulash. hers are bite-sized pieces of beef in a very thick tomato-based sauce, with cooked onions; served with white rice on the side. I once ordered goulash at a Hungarian place. it was bite-sized pieces fo beef, in a thin tomato-based sauce, no onions and white rice on the side. It wasn't bad, but it was not what I was used to.

Which one's authentic? I've no idea. On the one hand the restaurant was owned by a real Hungarian immigrant. On the other, our cook is Mexican and learned the goulash recipe from an elderly Polish woman (and I'm sure added her own modifications, she's nothing if not talented). I'm leaning towards the restaurant version, but I know which one I preffer.

As I've mentioned before, I've never tried a Mexican restaurant outside Mexico. But I've tried Chinese restaurants in Mexico, America and England. I've found them strikingly similar in taste and quality. One dish I've tried in NYC, Houston and Mexico is orange beef. It's cooked with long, thin red peppers. The hottest, by far, were those in New York.

I think that "authentic" is one of the most overused and poorly defined words in restaurant advertising and reviewing.

"Fresh" is another one. Maybe there are a few circumstances where its warranted, like a seafood restaurant that's right at the docks. But most of the time, those who rave about the "fresh" food at a restaurant have no idea whether the ingredients were frozen or canned.

And don't even get me started on "homemade"!

My grandfather grew up in Spain, and he always made Spanish food. But he left as a teenager and being a guy in a small village in Extramdura he never really learned how to cook. I never felt like I really ate Spanish food until I went to the country and discovered that it was a cuisine that is every bit as good as Italian or French (just radically different).

Since then, I am usually very unhappy at most so called Spanish restaurants in America. Spanish food is not spicy at all, but the dishes in most Spanish American restaurants are awful and bland in comparison. The ingredients are part of it. The ham and cheese is totally different. A lot of it has to do with the quality of the olive oil.

In Vegas the most popular Spanish Restaurants are mostly California food. One of the treats of going to Mexico is that you can find good Spanish and Basque restaurants.

Quote: PapaChubby

And don't even get me started on "homemade"!

There seemed to be a time when restaurants were careful to use the term "homestyle" instead of "homemade", but now somehow that went out the window.

Quote: PapaChubby

And don't even get me started on "homemade"!

One of my clients owns a cafe. He is also a chef in his own right, although all he does now is come up with the recipe and have his cooks make the food. Anyway, he's constantly telling me of various places around the city that he eats and discovers their "homemade" sauce is the same sauce you can buy at the restaurant supply stores.

As far as 'authentic' Mexican food vs Tex Mex I think it has more to do with what you order than where you are, although places do tend to lean one way or the other. Just think to yourself, is the average Mexican more likely to be eating steak fajitas or chicharrones? My guess would be the latter. Being a Texan, I can appreciate both sides of the spectrum. Lately I've been ordering a lot of(and even trying to make at home a few times) Mexican pork and beef stews, guiso de puerco o de res. I think those are pretty authentic to what Mexicans may eat (Nareed can of course correct me here). I can also enjoy crispy tacos, which are not very authentic in my opinion.

I believe the nacho was technically invented in Mexico, but it was on a border town at a restaurant that had a lot of gringo customers. Who knows how much of what the Food Channel tells me is true, however.

I think I'm pretty well versed in Thai food in Thailand vs home as well, having spent 6 weeks there in 2007. For starters, there are no carts of bugs and dried squid in Thai restaurants back home!

From Texan Concepts of Ethnic Food: Breaking It Down, Venn Diagram-Style

You want to have fun, pick up a cookbook from the '30s. You'll find recipes for the same stuff you eat now, except something like fried chicken will start with "melt 1 lb of lard..." and might include "defeather the bird."

Food changes. "Authentic" is a moving target. To give one obvious example, are chili peppers South & Central American, or Thai? They went from Mexico to the Philippines, then to Asia. Of course NOW they are part of Thai cuisine, but they weren't always.

I don't like how that Venn diagram has Tequila on the left. Perhaps the Ultimate Margarita that you order from Chili's belongs there but Tequila should at least be in the middle.

Quote: Mosca

From Texan Concepts of Ethnic Food: Breaking It Down, Venn Diagram-Style

I would dispute the claim that authentic Mexican is better for you. Mexican food, the really authentic kind you get in the markets and taco stands of Mex City and other places, is very high in fat.

Take tacos. Typically they're made of beef or pork, which are high-fat meats, and are then cooked with oil on a hot griddle. Popular varieties include alambre (beef, chicken, porck chop or al pastor pork, bell peppers, onions and bacon) either with or without cheese, gringa (flour toritlla, al pastor pork and cheese), taco loco (pork chop with bacon and chorizo; the latter is a kind of sausage made with pork meat and pork fat and spices). Other popular choices are "sesos" and "buche" respectively they're meat taken from the brain and cheeks of either a cow or a pig. Taste issues aside, they're high in fat and cholesterol.

But, one might argue, tacos and tortas are the junk food of Mexican food. And so they are, even if lots of people have them often. So let's look at some of the dishes listed in the graph:

Chilaquiles: fried tortilla chips drowned in red or green salsa, sprinkled with grated cheese and a big dollop of sour cream on top. They may be served plain, or with shredded chicken or beef.

Enchiladas: shreded chicken rolled into a tortilla, then fried and covered in salsa, plus cheese and cream.

Mole: a mix of spices, cocoa beans, lard, peppers and chicken broth. It's delicious, but fattening. Typically it's served on top of a mound of shredded chicken, with a side of mexican-style rice (fried rice with tomato, it's red when it's done), also covered with mole. It's eaten with tortillas. Mole can also be used instead of salsa for chilaquiles and enchiladas.

Cajeta: acutally not so bad. It's goat milk slowly burned (yes, burned) with loads of sugar and sometimes added flavoring like vanilla. It's high in sugar, but the fat content is low for a dairy-based product. lately there are reduced sugar versions. there are no sugar-free versions, because something about how the sugar crystallizes is essential for the sweet, tasty goo. As a side note, I liked it better when I was a child. I used to put it on toast and on pancakes. these days I'll sometimes get a cajeta wafer (obleas de cajeta) for a snack.

Quote: Mosca

From Texan Concepts of Ethnic Food: Breaking It Down, Venn Diagram-Style

While the Venn diagram is fundamentally correct there are quibbles.
"Queso" - the quality of the cheeze available in Mexico is amazing. You don't always need the cheap stuff
"Tequila" - can be made with the same care and quality as Scotch whiskey = You will note that I recommend taking an inexpensive flight from Vegas to Guadalajara and then going to the nearby town of Tequila
"Mole" - while Mole Poblano has spread from it's native Puebla throughout Mexica and southwestern USA, the number of different kinds of mole is vast.
"Elote, cajeta, adobo, and michelada" - would require gringos to be a little adventuresome. Unfortunately, while some of these items are available in America, they are often sold in Mexican "haute cuisine" places for astronomical prices. But they give you some ideas for things you can search for in American Mexican restaurants. Sometimes that means venturing into the Mexican side of town where people make their regional cuisine.
Michelada is a drink made with beer, chili, and lime.

The humble margarita is usually an ultra cheap concoction made with mix or often frozen. Try making one at home with a better brand of Tequila, Cointreau, and real limes. The very best brands of Tequila are usually Anejo (or aged) and are too good to put in a drink. Repasado means "rested" and has a lot of brands that are worth the money.



Lapis is one of the better aged tequilas. It's particularly impressive for being ultra smooth, although I have come to like something with more bite (roughly $50-$60 bottle). Cazadores is a good mid-level tequila for making better quality margaritas. I like it better than 1800 Reposado which is similarly priced (around $25/bottle).

Always remember that it is Mezcal, and not Tequila that can be made "con gusano" (with a worm). And you do have to eat the worm (which is actually a larval form of the moth) , but it's so pickled that it doesn't taste like much anymore. It does give the mezcal a distinctive taste. It is not actually a traditional way to make mezcal, but is a little bit of a gimmick. The larva would traditionally end up in mezcal by accident since they were in the plants.

Some nightclub comic said something about we give foreign aid so people won't have to eat like that, they get richer there and come here and then we eat in their restaurants. Obviously I don't recall it quite correctly and it wasn't all that funny to begin with but the principle is the same... when someone migrates, cuisines always change to some degree. In NYC, Asia d' Cuba was owned by a Chinese chef who fled one political upheaval and then fled another one. He specialized in the blends of the two cultures. Is that ethnic?

Is there anyone here who really wants a Vietnamese restaurant that uses the peanut oil available there which often contains a contaminant. All the Vietnamese restaurants here and Thai restaurants will use peanut oil legally imported.

Of if you go to a foreign fish market you often see blue tinged fish. Its cyanide a great way to catch fish if you are a poor fisherman with twelve mouths to feed, not a good source for an ethnic meal though.

Most of those Chinese take out restaurants in any one region in the USA have suppliers that are in common and often ownership too. That is one reason why they use the same take out menus with simply different names and phone numbers. They all use the same fortune cookie company. I doubt its authentic at all. And much of the Asian stuff in NYC is made in a Brooklyn factory that is owned and run by Westerners. So what is authentic anyway?

Some missionaries who went to the Chinese countryside had that rule about Chinese restaurants: If you know, don't tell. If you don't know, don't ask. And whatever you do, don't ever go into the kitchen.

How authentic is the American hamburger? it was served in ancient Rome.
Is the frankfurter known in Germany?
Is Greek Yougurht from Greece? In the USA clabbered milk was sold in ten gallon buckets real cheap in rural areas. It sold as youghurt at high prices in the cities.
There is a blighted corn sold in Mexico City as a delicacy and also in New Mexico. Its also sold from time to time in NYC for an outrageous sum.
Chitterlings take ten hours of boiling of pigs intestines or something. You would have to have been poor and desperate to discover they were edible. Now they are sold as ethnic food. What ethnic is that? The desperately poor and starving?

You want a Chinese restaurant look for a place without English menus and with other Chinese eating there. It probably is as close as you will get, but the young Chinese who eat there probably don't think its really authentic, just close enough.

The Venn diagram is a survey result, of peoples' perceptions. It has nothing to do with what is authentic; it is what Texans think is authentic. And that is something very different, obviously. Here's another:

Where do Tamale's fit into the Venn diagram of Mexican food? There's a guy in town who sells them from a cart, and they are delicious. As is the Guatemalan chef who makes all the standard I expect from a Mexican place (taco's, burritos, enchiladas), but with local produce, very mild spicing and his own (he says) twist based on his country's style that he learnt growing up rather than "Mexican".

Mmmm.... I should hit up Hernandez tomorrow.

Quote: pacomartin

Cazadores is a good mid-level tequila for making better quality margaritas. I like it better than 1800 Reposado which is similarly priced (around $25/bottle).

Really? Last year at the office christmas party the boss sent someone to get a fifth of tequila. He came back with Cazadores and was warned, under penalty of being fired, never to get that brand again.

I don't drink tequila often, and only in the form of margaritas. Curiously a fancy Chinese place, owned and operated by a recent Chinese immigrant, a few miles from the office makes a hell of a good margarita. Anyway, the boss does drink it, so I assume he knows what he's talking about. When I buy it for some reason, I always get Don Julio unless some other brand is specified.

Quote:

Always remember that it is Mezcal, and not Tequila that can be made "con gusano" (with a worm). And you do have to eat the worm

To quote Robert Heinlein "There's nothing you got to do but pay taxes and die." :P

Quote: Nareed

Really? Last year at the office christmas party the boss sent someone to get a fifth of tequila. He came back with Cazadores and was warned, under penalty of being fired, never to get that brand again.

Meaning what exactly? Too expensive or not expensive enough?

Quote: zippyboy

Meaning what exactly? Too expensive or not expensive enough?

Too undrinkable :)

Funny, I thought the implication was clear.

Quote: Nareed

Too undrinkable :)

Funny, I thought the implication was clear.

It wasn't. Paco had stated he thought it was a good tequila for $25/bottle. You say your boss threatens to fire an employee who fetched that tequila, so evidently that employee also thought it was a good brand.

Maybe your boss thought the employee spent too much and $25/bottle was wasting company cash. :)

$25/bottle tequila is undrinkable? lol

Sometimes products are different for the export and home markets. And when it comes to cut rate pharmaceuticals, I doubt the products are pure at all.

A brand name might be just a counterfeit label.

Quote: zippyboy

It wasn't. Paco had stated he thought it was a good tequila for $25/bottle. You say your boss threatens to fire an employee who fetched that tequila, so evidently that employee also thought it was a good brand.

The threat was surely made half in jest...

FWIW I just checked a supermarket website, which rounded give the liter bottle of Cazadores reposado a price of $20, meaning $25 would be a decent prize for an export. In contrast a 3/4 liter bottle of Don Julio reposado sells for $30.

I don't drink tequila, though, so I can't judge. I'm assuming the boss can. Threatening to fire someone, even in jest, speaks poorly of the quality of the booze.

Quote:

Maybe your boss thought the employee spent too much and $25/bottle was wasting company cash. :)

We're not allowed to buy liquor with company cash, unless we justify it as a courtesy to a customer. The boss used his own money. maybe he just didn't like the brand? I don't really know. The impression I was left with of Cazadores is that it's lousy.

Quote: Nareed

In contrast a 3/4 liter bottle of Don Julio reposado sells for $30.

Wow, if it was that price here I'd drink it every day (or at least every week). I always see it for 55-65 bucks a fifth.

Quote: Nareed

The boss used his own money. maybe he just didn't like the brand? I don't really know. The impression I was left with of Cazadores is that it's lousy.

Keep in mind that I was making a recommendation for a tequila for margaritas, not for straight up. Personally I could get Cazadores at the duty free going into Tijuana for $18 for a full liter bottle. They would give you 2 hours of free parking instead of the normal $8. You walk it across the border, get some authentic tacos or birria in Tijuana, and walk it back across the border. That way you get a good Mexican meal and a cheap bottle of Tequila. It probably wouldn't be worth the trouble without the meal. I like Cazadores in a margarita better than Jose Cuervo (and a little more than Jose Cuervo 1800).Jose Cuervo 1800 is usually $32 for a 750ml bottle.


Patron Silver is often $40 for a 750 ml bottle (which makes no sense to me at all). Somehow they have managed to convince gringos that silver is somehow desirable in a tequila.

Patron Anejo goes for well over $100 for a bottle, which I think is mostly marketing. The Lapis Anejo at around $60 is a better bargain.


Herradura Selection Suprema is what I would drink all the time if I had $300 per bottle