UBER STRIKE
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/technology/uber-drivers-strike-ipo.html
from the article:
"The idea of holding a strike quickly gathered momentum, drivers said. Rideshare Drivers United, based in Los Angeles, initiated the protest, asking its more than 4,000 members to turn off their ride-hailing apps for 24 hours. Other drivers began to organize similar actions around the world, staying in touch over Facebook groups and group chats.“It just got bigger and bigger,” said Karim Bayumi, 40, who has driven full-time for Uber and Lyft for four years and who plans to participate in a picket at Los Angeles International Airport on Wednesday. He added, “Drivers have had enough. It’s now or never.”
Quote: RSIf they want to make more $$$ then they should find another job.
Yes if Americans find Uber pays too little let them get better paying jobs.
Let the immigrants do the driving
Quote: MaxPenJust another reason to not own a business today. Everyone always looking to take a dump on you. Oh well, ought to make the cab drivers happy for a few hours.
Its system selling mathematics.
Low prices
High salaries
Only Americans no immigrants
Thats what people want
Now figure out the math to make all that work
Quote: darkozIts system selling mathematics.
Low prices
High salaries
Only Americans no immigrants
Thats what people want
Now figure out the math to make all that work
I'm not much of a people pleaser and self driving cars are already a reality, just need a few more tweaks.
Quote: darkozIts system selling mathematics.
Low prices
High salaries
Only Americans no immigrants
Thats what people want
Now figure out the math to make all that work
NY State spends close to $20,000 a year on so called education per student. Most kids go to school for 12 years so that's $240,00 per.
Parents probably spend a grand or two a year so by the time a kid turns 18, society has well over a quarter million dollars invested in them.
The system sucks and is broken. Start there.
As I posted elsewhere: you need to have an inaccurate mind in order to think that Uber is a money maker: the cost of driving a car, any car, is over fifty cents a mile when all is factored in, the type of people who think driving an Uber is a good deal are the ones who think that gasoline is the only expense to be calculated in per mile cost of driving. When you drive an Uber all you're doing at best is taking out the depreciating value of your car in Uber payments. Factor in gas insurance maintenance wear and tear and depreciation and some cars cost over a dollar a mile to drive, with the average being fifty cents per mile.
You figure the Uber driver has to drive to wherever you are to pick you up, and then if it's a long haul, go back towards where he started...he doesn't even get paid for those pick up and return miles. Even at fifty cents a mile which a lot of the cars these Uber drivers drive cost more than that per mile to drive, I don't see how they're making anything.
Quote: MDawgThe whole premise of driving an Uber is a losing proposition.
As I posted elsewhere: you need to have an inaccurate mind in order to think that Uber is a money maker: the cost of driving a car, any car, is over fifty cents a mile when all is factored in,
Driving for Uber is like smoking cigarettes.
You don't see the actual cost to you on
your car or body till way down the road.
And then it's too late. The penalty is so
gradual you don't even notice it until
it dawns on you what an idiot you were.
The problem will solve itself. They strike, and either uber pays up or tells them to F off.
Quote: MDawgthe cost of driving a car, any car, is over fifty cents a mile when all is factored in,
The government says it is a little over 50-cents per mile. Couldn't someone could simply drive the speed limit with a smaller hybrid and take better care of it that most people and pay less than that? That's what I'm doing and I'm under 10-cents per mile in gas and maintenance. Insurance and depreciation is even less than that.
One way driving for Uber could make sense is if you use those miles driving around for other things. Anywhere a passenger takes me in the city, I'm going to be near a casino I can into and look around for additional ways to make money. Over 90% of the people from the airport are heading north, so if someone is near the airport everyday and heading north from there, they can earn an extra $20 - $50 or so per day without too much extra work by picking some people up. Overall right now I don't think driving for Uber is a great deal for most people. But some are figuring out ways to make it worthwhile. And those ways are probably going to keep growing. Amazon is moving into having people use their personal vehicles pick up packages at a warehouse and deliver to an address. Stacking that with Uber/Lyft would seem to be a good way to make money driving around.
I think a strike would be great. Based on the nature of the service, there is a good chance the outcome would be decided entirely by market forces. Wouldn't that be awesome
Quote: MDawgThe whole premise of driving an Uber is a losing proposition.
As I posted elsewhere: you need to have an inaccurate mind in order to think that Uber is a money maker: the cost of driving a car, any car, is over fifty cents a mile when all is factored in, the type of people who think driving an Uber is a good deal are the ones who think that gasoline is the only expense to be calculated in per mile cost of driving. When you drive an Uber all you're doing at best is taking out the depreciating value of your car in Uber payments. Factor in gas insurance maintenance wear and tear and depreciation and some cars cost over a dollar a mile to drive, with the average being fifty cents per mile.
You figure the Uber driver has to drive to wherever you are to pick you up, and then if it's a long haul, go back towards where he started...he doesn't even get paid for those pick up and return miles. Even at fifty cents a mile which a lot of the cars these Uber drivers drive cost more than that per mile to drive, I don't see how they're making anything.
My brother in law drives for both Uber and Lyft.
In 2018, after taxes , gas, and car maintenance costs , he cleared around $36,000. He has another non driving related job also.
For that year, his car depreciated in value by about $4500
Can you explain to me how he “lost money” driving for Uber during that 12 months?
Quote: michael99000My brother in law drives for both Uber and Lyft.
In 2018, after taxes , gas, and car maintenance costs , he cleared around $36,000. He has another non driving related job also.
For that year, his car depreciated in value by about $4500
Can you explain to me how he “lost money” driving for Uber during that 12 months?
If available, approximately how many miles did he put on the vehicle for the year?
----------
Big gas price swing in the last 6 months according to Gas Buddy:
https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts
I guess driving in winter months (in good weather states?) could be more profitable...
Quote: KeeneoneIf available, approximately how many miles did he put on the vehicle for the year?
----------
Big gas price swing in the last 6 months according to Gas Buddy:
https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts
I guess driving in winter months (in good weather states?) could be more profitable...
I’m not sure, I’ll find out.
I do know that once he passed a certain number of lifetime rides given (maybe 2000), he qualified for discounts on gas and car repairs.
Quote: RomesUnless you work for uber or drive for them, I don't think any of us have really relevant opinions. If the work is tougher than it looks and they're getting paid .1% of ubers income, then yeah, they should have higher wages for making the parent company billions
What income though? Uber has claimed losses of 2.1 and 1.8 billion the last two years, not sure how but the drivers aren’t making the parent company billions in anything but gross income, and there’s no net income for the company now. I’m not sure how you have over 50 billion in annual expenses when your product is an app, but that’s what they’re reporting. Some drivers hand out cards and undercut the company soliciting rides as a side hustle outside the app, If they think they’re getting screwed finding an entrepreneurial spirit like a couple things TomG mentioned or a better job makes more sense than begging for scraps.
Quote: mcallister3200What income though?
They have revenue of over $11 billion and IPO estimates give a valuation of around $80 to $100 billion. The people taking in those billions are either wasting that money and about to screw over a bunch more investors, or they've been reinvesting the money into the company, making the company they own worth an awful lot. (I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little of both). Amazon went over a decade losing money. Which helped their owner become one of the richest people in the world.
Quote: mcallister3200I’m not sure how you have over 50 billion in annual expenses when your product is an app, but that’s what they’re reporting.
That includes payments given to their drivers. Pretty easy for expenses to get extremely high (I'm seeing $15 billion) when anyone with a cell phone can get on their payroll.
Quote: mcallister3200Some drivers hand out cards and undercut the company soliciting rides as a side hustle outside the app,
That's awesome. I'm sure Uber doesn't hates, but so long as it is just a card that says 'driver' with their name and number on it, it's about the same as a handshake and saying "hi I'm tomg." I would tape it to some candy or a bottle of kool-aid.
Quote: mcallister3200What income though? Uber has claimed losses of 2.1 and 1.8 billion the last two years, not sure how but the drivers aren’t making the parent company billions in anything but gross income, and there’s no net income for the company now. I’m not sure how you have over 50 billion in annual expenses when your product is an app, but that’s what they’re reporting. Some drivers hand out cards and undercut the company soliciting rides as a side hustle outside the app, If they think they’re getting screwed finding an entrepreneurial spirit like a couple things TomG mentioned or a better job makes more sense than begging for scraps.
Uber is really impressively good at lighting money on fire. That's why the driver strikes and complaints really make me uneasy about Uber's future business prospects.
Sure Amazon lost money for a lot of years, but as they were losing money they were building warehouses and learning about ecommerce and logistics and fulfillment, all things that become cheaper as you scale up (economies of scale). The opportunities for economies of scale in Uber's realm seem much more limited. If a ride loses them a few bucks today, it doesn't matter if they have 2 rides tomorrow...they still lose X.
So if the drivers aren't being fairly compensated (a big if, I'm not saying this is true), raising their wages just makes it worse for Uber. I don't know how much they advertise. I know they pay a lot of really smart software folks a ton of money.
Anyway, I wouldn't touch the stock with 10 foot pole. But I don't pick stocks anyway.
Quote: billryanNY State spends close to $20,000 a year on so called education per student. Most kids go to school for 12 years so that's $240,00 per.
Parents probably spend a grand or two a year so by the time a kid turns 18, society has well over a quarter million dollars invested in them.
The system sucks and is broken. Start there.
I don’t know that I like the premise of reducing socio-economic mobility to zero as a place to start. Even in overall societal terms, I’m not sure providing basic education only to those who can afford it is going to result in the best and brightest having a chance to benefit society on the whole.
Besides, does anyone really look at the money that they pay into the tax system and compare it to the benefits to them of what Government provides? Most people can drive virtually anywhere in the country, but for most people, the money that they’ve paid into the tax system allocated only to roads would get them what, a few miles of drivable road to a few limited destinations?
The notion that parents only spend a grand or two by the time the kid is 18 is laughable. Spend over $500 just on school lunch, per kid, per year. School supplies, there goes a couple hundred per kid. Kid wants to do band? Have to buy or rent an instrument, there’s a grand.
Besides that, who knows whether or not that quarter of a million dollar figure is based on a model of maximum efficiency? I definitely believe there are potential money saving areas in the school system, but I don’t think it means you trim the actual educational component down to nothing or privatize everything,
it may seem like there is not much skill involved but that is false - the GPS is not going to do everything for you
if you're driving in a very heavy traffic area such as L.A. or NYC some drivers are going to know how to get around quickly and efficiently and some aren't going to have much of a clue
some are going to be lazy and some aren't
there's going to be lots of tricks to the trade
I have no doubt that there is a huge disparity in the dollars per hour available earned by different drivers
Quote: TomGThe government says it is a little over 50-cents per mile. Couldn't someone could simply drive the speed limit with a smaller hybrid and take better care of it that most people and pay less than that? That's what I'm doing and I'm under 10-cents per mile in gas and maintenance. Insurance and depreciation is even less than that.
One way driving for Uber could make sense is if you use those miles driving around for other things. Anywhere a passenger takes me in the city, I'm going to be near a casino I can into and look around for additional ways to make money. Over 90% of the people from the airport are heading north, so if someone is near the airport everyday and heading north from there, they can earn an extra $20 - $50 or so per day without too much extra work by picking some people up. Overall right now I don't think driving for Uber is a great deal for most people. But some are figuring out ways to make it worthwhile. And those ways are probably going to keep growing. Amazon is moving into having people use their personal vehicles pick up packages at a warehouse and deliver to an address. Stacking that with Uber/Lyft would seem to be a good way to make money driving around.
I think a strike would be great. Based on the nature of the service, there is a good chance the outcome would be decided entirely by market forces. Wouldn't that be awesome
UBER and the rest seem to have two keys to them.
One is if you need a set amount of money short term. Maybe you are short for rent. Maybe you owe your shylock $100 in vig in two days. Anything. The wear and tear are there, but they are so short-term that it is meaningless.
Other is when you are going somewhere anyways. If you work in a downtown and live near the airport you can probably make a few rides a week.
All this money being lost means it will all implode sooner or later.
Quote: AZDuffmanAll this money being lost means it will all implode sooner or later.
Might be a lot of money to be made short selling them in a couple of days
Quote: TomGMight be a lot of money to be made short selling them in a couple of days
Could take some time. But:
1. Go short
2. Buy protective calls
3. Sell puts
4. Put the net credit into a utility fund or something else stable that throws off income
Quote: AZDuffmanCould take some time. But:
1. Go short
2. Buy protective calls
3. Sell puts
4. Put the net credit into a utility fund or something else stable that throws off income
sure. that's the ticket
and at the craps table you should bet pass and don't pass at the same time
and lay the 6 and 8 and place the 5 and 9................ 😃
Quote: lilredroostersure. that's the ticket
and at the craps table you should bet pass and don't pass at the same time
and lay the 6 and 8 and place the 5 and 9................ 😃
It is called a "hedge." It is what you do in trading.
Quote: AZDuffmanIt is called a "hedge." It is what you do in trading.
it's now what I do in my trading
there are a few hedge funds that have done very well
and there are quite a few that have gotten creamed and gone out of business
the individual trader can't get the same deal as the hedge fund manager funneling millions in and out every week
he's going to get beat on the bid and ask - badly - compared to the big money managers
Quote: AZDuffmanIt is called a "hedge." It is what you do in trading.
Hedge against Uber going down? So making bets that do well if Uber goes up and are hurt when Uber goes down? Why not just skip those bets and win big when it implodes?
Quote: darkozYes if Americans find Uber pays too little let them get better paying jobs.
Let the immigrants do the driving
Only you, the former subway dwelling, unable to get out of the homeless cycle for 7 years would say this. Regardless of what you did for 50 years, or less, it’s hard to respect you.
You failed to take advantage of everything America has to offer.
And you show it everyday in your politics. Still pushing the handout for idiot policies.
I’ll accept whatever decision is made on this position, but obviously you failed in taking advantage of the American Dream.
Which is why I think everything you push as being the “most feared.....whatever “ is pure bull####.
Quote: djatcI'm with the strikers. Gonna be using Lyft now. Well I always used Lyft, but will do so from now on as well.
I can almost taste the heroin in this post =)
Quote: FaceI can almost taste the heroin in this post =)
Assuming you have never been an H junkie, this is an insult to H junkies everywhere.
Smile or no smile, H is a plague upon this proud nation. Probably better comparisons.
Quote: BozAssuming you have never been an H junkie, this is an insult to H junkies everywhere.
Smile or no smile, H is a plague upon this proud nation. Probably better comparisons.
The heroin was a reference to Mitch Hedberg, from whom dj's phrasing was inspired.
Quote: MDawgThe whole premise of driving an Uber is a losing proposition.
Maybe
but
Consider this scenario which is common
You have a regular job with say a 40 mile commute
You are looking for some extra income, Uber is perfect
Start an hour or 2 before you normally commute, only accept uber rides to a destination close to work or at least in the right direction. Can pick up another ride to get closer to work.
On the way home, turn on uber and only accept rides going close to home or in the direction home. May take a ride or 2 or 3
One of my uber drivers was doing exactly that
Its not a taxi, its a ride share, Hey, you going in my direction, let me share my ride :-)
Quote: FaceThe heroin was a reference to Mitch Hedberg, from whom dj's phrasing was inspired.
Was thinking of Mitch Snyder, the F##### idiot who wasting his life fighting for the homeless.
Either way, suicide is for losers and idiots. They only hurt those they leave behind.
Assuming of course, anyone cares they are gone.
Quote: BozWas thinking of Mitch Snyder, the F##### idiot who wasting his life fighting for the homeless.
Either way, suicide is for losers and idiots. They only hurt those they leave behind.
Assuming of course, anyone cares they are gone.
Wow
Pretty cold heartless post
I deeply care that my Father is gone. His suicide devastated my family. He was no idiot. PHD from Yale. Depression can be a deadly mental illness. :-(
I suffer from depression. Does that make me an idiot and loser?
Quote: BozWas thinking of Mitch Snyder, the F##### idiot who wasting his life fighting for the homeless.
Either way, suicide is for losers and idiots. They only hurt those they leave behind.
Assuming of course, anyone cares they are gone.
Didn't you...
Weren't you just...
What?
Quote: terapinedMaybe
but
Consider this scenario which is common
You have a regular job with say a 40 mile commute
You are looking for some extra income, Uber is perfect
Start an hour or 2 before you normally commute, only accept uber rides to a destination close to work or at least in the right direction. Can pick up another ride to get closer to work.
On the way home, turn on uber and only accept rides going close to home or in the direction home. May take a ride or 2 or 3
One of my uber drivers was doing exactly that
Its not a taxi, its a ride share, Hey, you going in my direction, let me share my ride :-)
That's exactly what my neighbor does. He tries to pick up a fare to the airport, then one headed north from the airport. After his shift he takes someone to the airport, then a fare to Henderson. Wife does a couple of weekend shifts and they are paying down their debt.
Quote: BozOnly you, the former subway dwelling, unable to get out of the homeless cycle for 7 years would say this. Regardless of what you did for 50 years, or less, it’s hard to respect you.
You failed to take advantage of everything America has to offer.
And you show it everyday in your politics. Still pushing the handout for idiot policies.
I’ll accept whatever decision is made on this position, but obviously you failed in taking advantage of the American Dream.
Which is why I think everything you push as being the “most feared.....whatever “ is pure bull####.
Firstly, you are taking my sarcastic response to RS post as some position espoused. If you read the 2 post together it should be obvious I am being sarcastic.
Secondly what are you referring to by saying I am not enjoying the American dream? Probably only in America can a homeless person rise so far up in station. Its the AMERICAN DREAM to rise above ones station while everywhere else your lot in life when born is pretty much where you remain.
I find it hilarious that:
A) you actually dont even know what the American Dream is and
B) that you seem to think you know how well I am doing in life at this time period
Maybe we can move on? I’m sure we can’t.
Quote: FinsRuleThe homeless shaming of DarkOz is uncalled for and overplayed.
Maybe we can move on? I’m sure we can’t.
The proper move in this case is to split off the homeless shaming of darkoz to its own thread.
Quote: MaxPenI'm trying to figure out what leverage these drivers think they have and how they think this strike can benefit them.
The biggest leverage they have is in unity. The very nature of the job could give them more unity and leverage than usual. A major reason people drive for Uber is to set their own hours and take time off whenever they want. If I was a driver I would absolutely join the strike, because the benefits would far outweigh any negatives: I get a day to do something anything else I could want and there is a chance it could help raise wages. The only downside would be a loss of a few days pay, which I could easily make up some other way or simply go without.
Quote: MaxPenUber should prioritize the apps of those who stayed on during the shutdown in the coming months.
That could be crushing to them. Lawyers would be lined up ready to argue that prioritizing drivers who work the hours Uber wants them to work pushes them too close to employee instead of private contractor. The bigger problem is that it would destroy one of the biggest benefits for being a driver: working for someone who encourages you to work whenever you want. Take that away and they may as well drive a cab or do anything else that also offers health insurance and all the other stuff than comes from punching the clock on someone else's schedule. The only drivers left would be the people who couldn't get hired for any other job
Quote: lilredroosterit's now what I do in my trading
there are a few hedge funds that have done very well
and there are quite a few that have gotten creamed and gone out of business
the individual trader can't get the same deal as the hedge fund manager funneling millions in and out every week
he's going to get beat on the bid and ask - badly - compared to the big money managers
Not a hedge fund, a hedge. Risk management.
Quote: TomGThe biggest leverage they have is in unity. The very nature of the job could give them more unity and leverage than usual. A major reason people drive for Uber is to set their own hours and take time off whenever they want. If I was a driver I would absolutely join the strike, because the benefits would far outweigh any negatives: I get a day to do something anything else I could want and there is a chance it could help raise wages. The only downside would be a loss of a few days pay, which I could easily make up some other way or simply go without.
That could be crushing to them. Lawyers would be lined up ready to argue that prioritizing drivers who work the hours Uber wants them to work pushes them too close to employee instead of private contractor. The bigger problem is that it would destroy one of the biggest benefits for being a driver: working for someone who encourages you to work whenever you want. Take that away and they may as well drive a cab or do anything else that also offers health insurance and all the other stuff than comes from punching the clock on someone else's schedule. The only drivers left would be the people who couldn't get hired for any other job
Alternatively, I'd think Uber could reward those who did not go on strike in one way or another, like top priority / queue skip.
Quote: TomGHedge against Uber going down? So making bets that do well if Uber goes up and are hurt when Uber goes down? Why not just skip those bets and win big when it implodes?
The problem is you can lose big waiting for the implosion. So much cheap money sloshing around silicon valley, funding bad ideas. Look at TSLA. Going to issue more stock and bonds to meet cash needs. Their burn rate has finally caught up with them. Closed most of their stores, layoffs, now chasing new funding. TSLA is not only crazy overvalued, it is what, 10 years in the red, a quarter or two not withstanding? No sane person would buy an auto dealership for the kind of multiple they sell for. Yet they are still around. And yes, I know it is the most shorted stock and many shorts have won big. But you need a big wallet to pay to borrow that stock.
UBER will be similar. Simple idea, leading name. It could take years. So you:
Short the stock
Sell puts below, because you WANT the below puts to be exercised.
Buy more calls than puts with the put premium. So if idiots drive the price high you make out
Put the money to work for you. A utility fund will make 7-10% per year most years with dividends.
And I know I am breaking the "thou shall not hedge" commandment. I do not accept that one.
Is there some reason the business model for the Uber worker would get better over the years? I can't think of any. Too easy for too many people to get into. Why would it not get overplayed? If you're lean and mean, you can probably continually make money at it. How much though?
Quote: rxwineNothing wrong with a strike. Doesn't mean it's always a good idea.
Is there some reason the business model for the Uber worker would get better over the years? I can't think of any. Too easy for too many people to get into. Why would it not get overplayed? If you're lean and mean, you can probably continually make money at it. How much though?
The business model probably is not all that bad. Prices will have to rise over time and it will all level out. The popularity is there for both driver and passenger. Maybe we eventually see manufacturers make cars more suited to UBER. Four-door models with a more taxicab-basic interior, etc. Same as they once had "business coupes" for traveling salesmen.
UBER is IMHO doing a bad thing with this self-driving experiment. Why take on all the capital and labor expenses of having your own fleet of vehicles?
The advantage of UBER is that it is everywhere. That is a high barrier to competitor entry. If I go on vacation I can use my UBER app and have assurance that the driver has been vetted by UBER. While this is not perfect, think of it like McDonald's. McDonald's was never the best burger, but on the road, tired, not in the mood to experiment, stop at the golden arches. In a strange city, do you chance it? Do you want to take the time to find the local ride-share operator after a long flight? I don't.
At the moment it is a pricing problem. Similar to McDonald's early days, the cut is not enough to cover the costs. Maybe UBER needs to rent the UBER Black cars to the drivers, and you only get that rating if you lease it from UBER. A $100 "sandwich" profit could be the difference? Maybe, maybe not. As it is it will not make it.
Quote: RSAlternatively, I'd think Uber could reward those who did not go on strike in one way or another, like top priority / queue skip.
They could do that and there is a chance they might. The benefits for rewarding them out of loyalty are pretty small. Doing that would necessitate de-prioritizing the ones who took those few days off. The drawbacks to punishing them out of pettiness are much greater.
Uber would be fine to prioritize their best drivers. That should be determined by profits over a long time period. Not loyalty over one weekend. In business, it is always a problem to loyalty in close proximity to profits. This isn't dating.
I am always in favor of striking. The reason it is so rare is both sides are so scared by it. Labor because they are far too dependent on their jobs. Management because they make their workers far too irreplaceable.
Arrived at airport for spring fling trip. The 13 yr old granddaughter couldnt come today due to a sudden commitment (tickets to a concert but to a 13 yr old that a commitment)
So we booked her a flight alone tomorrow
Mom always carries her daughter's passport so guess where it is when we arrive this morning at airport. In her moms purse.
No way we were gonna make it back home and to the airport for our flight.
Great idea. We had an Uber come, pu the passport and deliver it to my granddaughter.
Yippee!
