Nareed
Nareed
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October 25th, 2010 at 7:31:42 AM permalink
This is bound to be raised somewhere, so I might as well get it started.

The facts are as follows:

Roethlisberger tried a QB draw for a TD and got the ball knocked loose before it could break the plane of the end zone.
Players scrambled onto the loose ball, including Big Ben himself. A pile ensued.
The officials called a TD, but Miami challenged the ruling.
After review, the referee said the ball came loose before it broke the plane, therefore it's a fumble and not a TD. He added that there is no evidence on the tape as to who recovered the ball, therefore the Steelers keep the ball where it came loose.

The last is the controversial call, of course, which the Dolphins claim took the game from them (I don't believe it: Nareed's Laws of Football: a gmae lost in one play was lost by much more than one play).

Anyway, the NFL Total Access show on NFL Network invites the League's VP in charge of the officials to review and explain controversial calls, I think either on Mondays or Tuesdays. Last year the then current VP explaied that possesion of the ball is not up for revies, for the simple reason that it's rare for such a question to be settled by the replay. Whenever there's a pile after a fumble, you'll notice officals un-pile the lpayers before they rule.

The pile is one of the things the NFL rarely talks about. It ranks up there with the fact that most offensive playes begin with the QB touching the center's posterior. anyway, within a pile over a ball players will do things to make their opponents let go of the ball, including reaching for their opponent's eyes and, er, let's say family jewels (why do you think experienced pros wear a cup?)

So if such things are not subject to review, and if the call on the field was a touch down, then there was never any determination of who got the ball. Therfore it is Pittsburgh's ball because Ben had possesion the last time the officials kept track of it.

Of course I expect Miami fans to disagree. Bills' fans still gripe about an illegal forward pass in the Music City Miracle play, even though the tape clearly shows the ball going backwards from where it was thrown.

In any case the Dolphins dind't lose the game because the Steelers scored a field goal then. They lost because they coulnd't get more than 6 points off two Steeler fumbles near the red zone int he 1st quarter, and because they coulnd't drive the ball anywhere close to the red zone in the 4th after the Pittsburgh field goal.

They were only one point behind, after all. All they needed was a field goal. Or had Pittsburgh not scored a field goal when they did, who knows what would ahve happened? There was a lot of time on the clock, the Steelers might have intercepted the ball and scored, or stopped the Dolphins and scored on their next drive. The game was not lost because of that call, much as Miami fans wished otherwise.

BTW, Roethlisberger should avoid QB draws into the end zone. he always winds up mired in controversy when he tries. And Miami has lost all home games but won all road games. Tomorrow they should announce they're moving the team to Olrando. They'd still play at Miami, of course, but then those would be road games :P
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JerryLogan
JerryLogan
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October 25th, 2010 at 8:07:07 AM permalink
This game was lost on that one play and Miami was cheated out of a win. Pittsburgh always seems to squeak by the right breaks and with the right refs, and the key ref in this one (big surprise) LIVES in Pittsburgh. They played a lousy Super Bowl against a lousy Seattle team when Ben scored the worst QB rating ever for a winning SB team, then they won vs. the Cardinals on a fluke just before halftime and a lucky break at the end of the game when they were clearly outplayed the entire 48 minutes.

You're in Miami, a skilled player on the Dolphins clearly made Ben fumble, and when a Dolphin comes out of the pile with the ball then no way do you claim you can't determine who recovered. Obviously, no one would EVER give the ball up coming out of a fumble in the end zone, esp. when those guys had no idea it was already stupidly called a TD and it means the game to either team. I saw where Ben claimed he was in control of the ball on the ground, but we already know he's a pathological liar so that tells the whole story right there.

Miami was robbed.
Doc
Doc
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October 25th, 2010 at 8:27:03 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

This game was lost on that one play and Miami was cheated out of a win. ...

Perhaps it was divine intervention.
Quote: JerryLogan (from another thread)

Sure you can ridicule it but you can't disprove it.

JerryLogan
JerryLogan
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October 25th, 2010 at 8:36:32 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

Perhaps it was divine intervention.



Anything can happen for any reason....except for mkl654321's nonsense, of course.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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October 25th, 2010 at 9:31:22 AM permalink
Fumbles are handled very oddly in football. Very rarely does it happen that one player is seen to have possession and that's it. The assumption seems to be that no one can possibly have maintained confirmed control in a big pile without the officials peeling everyone off and seeing who has it on the bottom at that time.

This was not done in this situation. Note that the players are severely criticized when they make the assumption that a loose ball is a dead ball. They are coached to assume a loose ball is live [the failure to do this killed San Diego this weekend too, an assumed "incomplete pass" turned out to *not* be a "forward pass", the latter the only kind that can be ruled simply incomplete. I'm sure all fans saw that one too.] So, I say, the referees should come under criticism for not doing there job here, too. No assumptions that a loose ball is a dead ball by them either, please!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
thecesspit
thecesspit
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October 25th, 2010 at 9:57:44 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

This game was lost on that one play and Miami was cheated out of a win. Pittsburgh always seems to squeak by the right breaks and with the right refs, and the key ref in this one (big surprise) LIVES in Pittsburgh. They played a lousy Super Bowl against a lousy Seattle team when Ben scored the worst QB rating ever for a winning SB team, then they won vs. the Cardinals on a fluke just before halftime and a lucky break at the end of the game when they were clearly outplayed the entire 48 minutes.


That's football. You can playing lousy and not screw the pooch for 45 minutes and do enough to win. It doesn't matter if the QB play shitty, if you score more points, you win. I'm not a Steelers fan, and can't stand 'em really. If you out play a team... score more points. Simple really.

Quote:


You're in Miami, a skilled player on the Dolphins clearly made Ben fumble, and when a Dolphin comes out of the pile with the ball then no way do you claim you can't determine who recovered. Obviously, no one would EVER give the ball up coming out of a fumble in the end zone, esp. when those guys had no idea it was already stupidly called a TD and it means the game to either team. I saw where Ben claimed he was in control of the ball on the ground, but we already know he's a pathological liar so that tells the whole story right there.

Miami was robbed.



Crappy call, but Miami can't claim to lose the game on one single play, not can the Steelers claim to win it. Much the same as the Lions can't claim to have lost to da Bears in Game 1 due to a crappy call (both these calls are crappy, but both are by the letter of the football law).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
avargov
avargov
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October 25th, 2010 at 10:21:14 AM permalink
I don't know. I watch an awful lot of football, and have never seen a crew not be able to tell who possessed a fumble.

Seems rather odd to me.

And I disagree, one play can and does determine the outcome of games. An inch here a drop there and the game changes.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
mkl654321
mkl654321
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October 25th, 2010 at 10:39:13 AM permalink
Quote: avargov

I don't know. I watch an awful lot of football, and have never seen a crew not be able to tell who possessed a fumble.

Seems rather odd to me.

And I disagree, one play can and does determine the outcome of games. An inch here a drop there and the game changes.



But 500,000 years from now, when the earth is a lifeless cinder orbiting a white-hot, intensely radioactive sun, who's gonna care?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Nareed
Nareed
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October 25th, 2010 at 10:53:06 AM permalink
Quote: avargov

And I disagree, one play can and does determine the outcome of games. An inch here a drop there and the game changes.



In a very close game where both teams are near-evenly matched, that might be the case.

But in most games, including most close ones, that simply isn't the case. Take the Miami game yesterday as an aexmaple. The Dolphins failed to score a TD until the 4th quarter, despite repeated trips to or near the red zone. They decided no tto try a two-point conversion when they did score a TD, which would have tied the game at the time. And lastly after the Steelers field goal, they were stopped on downs. That's why they lost, not because of a bad call.
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avargov
avargov
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October 25th, 2010 at 11:33:17 AM permalink
Well yeah, of.course the coin flip helps determine the outcome of the game as well. The effects of all the plays are cumulative. But, especially in close games, you can generally look to one play that 'caused' that outcome. Just ask San Diego, a few inches to the left, and tie game.

That being said, every offensive play is drawn up to be a touchdown. So the inability to have a 'sucessful' play every down affects the outcome of every game.

Perhaps we just have a philosophical disagreement.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson

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