Jeb Bush: Third time's the Harm?
Quote: AZDuffmanAnd I would take Sarah Palin over Obama!
Seriously, you do NOT want to keep going there.
You are honestly arguing that gaffes of this variety or Dan Quayle's potatoe or the Bushisms even rise to the same level as the abject ignorance displayed by Palin. Someone running as the VP of a potential president supporting the Bush doctrine when she could not even articulate what it was. Or one who could not name a single Supreme Court case she disagreed with other then Roe V Wade. This is your idea of someone who should be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: petroglyph
I have held for sometime the belief that had more workers [not gov.] formed unions and bargained together in smaller groups than nationally, compromises that served everyone better would now be in play.
I still do not get how unions bargaining for someone else to pay their insurance premiums is supposed to lower the costs of health care. If anything it would cost more as people would have no incentive to use less health care. The health insurance costs of the UAW for example helped kill the auto industry by 2008.
I look at it from the perspective of the worker. In order to get the best package on anything it is better to bargain from a position of strength versus individually.
I don't think it would cause people to seek medical care they don't need [especially with co-pays], but allow them to get care they need. Some preemptive care is proven to be cheaper in the beginning rather than in later stages.
I don't know what the package was of the uaw but from a distance it seemed exorbitant for tightening widgets. There also has to be some reality in bargaining. Absolute power and all that.
The workers did make some pretty crappy cars and the unions need to accept they're part in it. I do want to be on record as saying though. Those workers were building what they were told to. They didn't design some sub standard auto during break time and come back on the floor and build crap. Somebody designed that stuff, and some manager ok'd it and decided it was the best thing to do. Some manager also agreed to the pay package including medical and post employment perks.
Ford so far has made it without a bailout, he [Henry] was the first to realize the benefit of employees being able to afford to buy the product they were building.
Me being in a union, I have seen guys fired before noon on their first day. The unions got to big, with too much power and everyone suffered, including taxpayers. Workers aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, often they need someone to bargain in their best interest while they are putting in workshifts and otherwise going about their lives. A lot of the workers profited unfairly. They didn't know they were getting screwed by the union leadership. They did mostly though play by the rules. The pensions were looted by the ones that had the keys to the vault.
The country is less than 10% union now. We can't continue to blame so much on so few. They do not have that power but are a convenient whipping post.
Unregulated power [wall street or government] doesn't work well either. Gordon Gekko, "greed is good". Without some competition on the medical end, there is no incentive to lower prices.
Quote: thecesspitYou use, though it's a lie. The fact you continue to use when people point out who you are including, and demeaning, means you don't care. It means every time you use it, people decide the rest of what you are saying is meaningless, as you've discounted hundred of thousands of people's lives, people who are natural Republican voters, people who are the very same hard working Americans you seem to think the tea party is about. The people on assistance, from 100's of reasons, the vets, the pensioners, the temproary unemployed, the sick and disabled.
You don't hit the work shy, the grubbers and the greedy, the one's who want the handouts and easy life. They don't care about your high minded values anyways. You don't get the -far- smaller minority of people who are indeed voting for handouts. It's not 47% of the American public. But every time you say it is, you fail.
You fail hard in convincing anyone you have a position worth listening to.
You fail in making you arguments for small government with a simple dismissal of half the electorate.
You fail in making arguments for self improvement, as you merely say 'meh, you lot are just living off handouts and just not worthy of MY consideration'.
You use it, because you want a easy crutch for the failures of Romney to win an election that was all his to win.
You use it, in the face of the facts, because winding up liberals is far more important to you than a cogent argument on welfare and social assistance programs.
So keep using it. Go right ahead. Every time you do, I know I can stop reading, as it'll be parrotted from your 'high information' news sources, said with a false sense of superiority in your viewpoint which is highly misplaced, and obviously so by the VERY fact you use it like a flyswatter, waving it around uselessy to chase away those irritating ideas that might just challenge your world view.
'47%' lost Romney an election. Just keep repeating the mistake he made, and blame other people instead. Keep failing. The US is your country, not mine. The right of American politics never winning another election doesn't matter to me. Keep using the punchline without a joke....
Love it. Worth a quote on a long post. lol...
Quote: Twirdman
You are honestly arguing that gaffes of this variety or Dan Quayle's potatoe or the Bushisms even rise to the same level as the abject ignorance displayed by Palin. Someone running as the VP of a potential president supporting the Bush doctrine when she could not even articulate what it was. Or one who could not name a single Supreme Court case she disagreed with other then Roe V Wade. This is your idea of someone who should be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Sorry, I do not see Palin as unintelligent. I see her as more intelligent than Obama truth be told. It has been shown repeatedly that off the teleprompter he makes a fool of himself. Palin in 2008 was new on the mic while Obama had been doing interviews for several years what with all the push he was getting.
I would rather her be a heartbeat away than Obama in the office.
Quote: terapinedIts not about more or less.
Its about cheap early detection instead of expensive surgery later on.
Its about a cheap early DR visit instead of waiting for the late expensive emergency room visit.
People already have no incentive to use less health care. And all the mandates on insurers make it worse. Unions negotiate for lower co-pays and better coverage. I saw a picket line once over them paying $1 a day more for their end, so please do not try to make it look like they care about the cost to the employer.
Quote: AZDuffmanSorry, I do not see Palin as unintelligent. I see her as more intelligent than Obama truth be told. It has been shown repeatedly that off the teleprompter he makes a fool of himself. Palin in 2008 was new on the mic while Obama had been doing interviews for several years what with all the push he was getting.
I would rather her be a heartbeat away than Obama in the office.
Here is her in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ogJjmgpLM she is utterly incoherent in that video a video that she willingly put on the internet there was no "gotcha" and she had as long as she wanted to formulate a thought and as many takes as was needed to get it right and yet she still couldn't even string together a cogent sentence. This was after having been in the spotlight for over half a decade and you think she is a model of intelligence and eloquence?
Also we've seen Obama speak fine off the cuff before and the teleprompter insult is stupid since literally every president in the past half century has used teleprompters regularly.
Maybe you are correct, but I don't understand how that can be? Most people I talk to absolutely dread going to Dr's. I sometimes go to a clinic. The price is going up but it has been 64 bucks for the visit plus a shot or a scrip. I just got a letter that a scrip I have taken for years is going up over 400%. I am thinking about going down to Mexico and bringing back all I can carry legally. That is a generic.Quote: AZDuffmanQuote:People already have no incentive to use less health care.
That may have been the way it was but what I was told now 10 years ago, [from a union rep] was to expect premiums to go up around 10% per year in perpetuity. I haven't talked to them in a while but that sounds close? Doubling every 7 years. That was before the ACA was a glimmer in the ptb's eye though.Quote:Unions negotiate for lower co-pays and better coverage.
Hard sometimes to understand which issues they take as the most serious, not unlike the SPLC or the ACLU? Sounds like the membership is being bamboozled with false promises. Ask for the moon and settle for less. The negotiators I've spoken with over the last few decades were just trying to lose less.Quote:I saw a picket line once over them paying $1 a day more for their end,
Unfortunately for some who may have joined thinking they wanted a career with high ideals and moral standards. It turns out most just want a paycheck. Even knowing that it is up to the members to ride herd over their "leaders" and make them representatives, not dictators.Quote:so please do not try to make it look like they care about the cost to the employer.
It is similar [to me] of our thoughts about the local police. Local accountability, everybody needs to be held accountable. I can't effect what happens on an opposite coast but locally I can be heard.
Quote: TwirdmanHere is her in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ogJjmgpLM she is utterly incoherent in that video a video that she willingly put on the internet there was no "gotcha" and she had as long as she wanted to formulate a thought and as many takes as was needed to get it right and yet she still couldn't even string together a cogent sentence. This was after having been in the spotlight for over half a decade and you think she is a model of intelligence and eloquence?
I think she is clearly the more intelligent of the two here as Warren thinks fast food is a career that you support a family from and Palin knows it is an entry level gig. And I have heard her talk just great many, many times, I am not going to compute her intelligence off of how she talks on her entertainment channel.
Quote:Also we've seen Obama speak fine off the cuff before and the teleprompter insult is stupid since literally every president in the past half century has used teleprompters regularly.
The difference is Obama supporters say how "intelligent" he is or how he is such a "great speaker" but it is based on his reading a teleprompter. When he goes off the thing he talks about his muslim faith or how he visited all 52 states but still had 2 to go.
Quote: petroglyphMaybe you are correct, but I don't understand how that can be? Most people I talk to absolutely dread going to Dr's. I sometimes go to a clinic. The price is going up but it has been 64 bucks for the visit plus a shot or a scrip. I just got a letter that a scrip I have taken for years is going up over 400%. I am thinking about going down to Mexico and bringing back all I can carry legally. That is a generic.
How it can be is that it is no different than any other economic choice, the lower the cost the more people will consume. My doctor just wanted to test me for a few things, regular tests. Not all of it is covered. So I said limit the tests because I feel fine an they came up fine last time. If they were all covered I would say "sure, whatever."
Quote: AZDuffmanAnd I would take Sarah Palin over Obama!
Seriously, you do NOT want to keep going there.
Ha! Ha! Ha! That was pretty funny. What we need is great orators like your hero here, AZ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM
Quote: mickeycrimm
Ha! Ha! Ha! That was pretty funny. What we need is great orators like your hero here, AZ.
Not sure where you get the idea that a great leader has to be a great speaker and being a great speaker makes one a great leader. Maybe if one lives a life of pop-culture they think this is so I guess. Obama is proof one can be considered a great speaker (though I find him boring to listen to) but have very poor leadership skills.
Quote: AZDuffmanNot sure where you get the idea that a great leader has to be a great speaker and being a great speaker makes one a great leader. Maybe if one lives a life of pop-culture they think this is so I guess. Obama is proof one can be considered a great speaker (though I find him boring to listen to) but have very poor leadership skills.
I find it hilarious that a person on the right would totally forget all the famous George Bush gafs and then put up a video of Obama mispeaking as some sort of proof of incompetence.
Quote: mickeycrimmI find it hilarious that a person on the right would totally forget all the famous George Bush gafs and then put up a video of Obama mispeaking as some sort of proof of incompetence.
Not when you look at it logically. Liberals claim Obama is somehow "smart" because of how he speaks. Serious, that is what so many of them liked best about him, logical when you consider he had no experience at anything when he started running for POTUS. So to show how he can't put a few sentences together unless he is reading a teleprompter just blows the argument that "he is smart" out of the water.
Nobody ever said Bush was a great speaker, though he was great at getting his point across in a reasonable amount of time. His SOTU addresses were made to last about 45 minutes while Obama takes over an hour and Clinton never could shut up. Bush was qualified for what he did and accomplished, not what he said he wanted to do.
Quote: AZDuffmanNot when you look at it logically. Liberals claim Obama is somehow "smart" because of how he speaks. Serious, that is what so many of them liked best about him, logical when you consider he had no experience at anything when he started running for POTUS. So to show how he can't put a few sentences together unless he is reading a teleprompter just blows the argument that "he is smart" out of the water.
Nobody ever said Bush was a great speaker, though he was great at getting his point across in a reasonable amount of time. His SOTU addresses were made to last about 45 minutes while Obama takes over an hour and Clinton never could shut up. Bush was qualified for what he did and accomplished, not what he said he wanted to do.
He was qualified enough to get us into a needless war in Iraq.. But he did have some executive experience. Not much as a Texas governor doesn't really have that much authority. Obama is all "on the job training" as he had no executive experience. I hope Americans have learned their lesson about electing presidents with no executive experience. That's why I like Bush, Christie, Jindal and Kasich. I like Rand Paul too but he has no executive experience.
Quote: mickeycrimmHe was qualified enough to get us into a needless war in Iraq.. But he did have some executive experience. Not much as a Texas governor doesn't really have that much authority. Obama is all "on the job training" as he had no executive experience. I hope Americans have learned their lesson about electing presidents with no executive experience. That's why I like Bush, Christie, Jindal and Kasich. I like Rand Paul too but he has no executive experience.
All wars are needless in hindsight. You have to go with the info you have when you make the decision. TX governor, like any governor, gives plenty of executive and administration experience. Governors have to deal with running things all the time no matter how "ceremonial" the position is made out to be, and that is what counts.
I agree on Rand and said "if only he was a governor" just yesterday. Though as a MD he should know how to make a decision and get things done. Not as good, but better than voting "present" to avoid issues.
http://youtu.be/RaNVAwLRTMg
Romney was/is legally able to put all income into Bain capitol and just borrow money to live on, thereby is able to not pay taxes on income.
Is this what we really want running the country, those that can escape paying income taxes and live uber wealthy?
Quote: petroglyphMight just as well elect bankers and cut out the middle man.
http://youtu.be/RaNVAwLRTMg
Romney was/is legally able to put all income into Bain capitol and just borrow money to live on, thereby is able to not pay taxes on income.
Is this what we really want running the country, those that can escape paying income taxes and live uber wealthy?
Romney released all of his tax records to the public (something Obama never did, heck his teeth had to get pulled before he would even present his birth certificate to the public, and he still never released his college transcripts).
Quote: AZDuffmanNobody ever said Bush was a great speaker, though he was great at getting his point across in a reasonable amount of time. His SOTU addresses were made to last about 45 minutes while Obama takes over an hour and Clinton never could shut up.
From here.
| President | Ave SOTUA |
|---|---|
| Lyndon B. Johnson | 0:53:57 |
| Richard Nixon | 0:35:26 |
| Gerald R. Ford | 0:45:31 |
| Jimmy Carter | 0:36:53 |
| Ronald Reagan | 0:40:00 |
| George Bush | 0:45:00 |
| William J. Clinton | 1:14:51 |
| George W. Bush | 0:52:35 |
| Barack Obama | 1:04:07 |
Quote: mickeycrimmHe was qualified enough to get us into a needless war in Iraq.. But he did have some executive experience. Not much as a Texas governor doesn't really have that much authority. Obama is all "on the job training" as he had no executive experience. I hope Americans have learned their lesson about electing presidents with no executive experience. That's why I like Bush, Christie, Jindal and Kasich. I like Rand Paul too but he has no executive experience.
Bush only gave one stay of execution while governor.
http://youtu.be/m3uomRx4Q14
Quote: mickeycrimmI hope Americans have learned their lesson about electing presidents with no executive experience.
Experience would just give him more ability to do things that about half the country is going to disagree with anyway, and make him even better at it.
1 year in the oval office is probably worth 2 in any governorship. (probably 3 in Alaska)
People will claim they want someone who is successful, but they'd probably rage at the policies of Buffet, and Bloomberg.
They will just make a new excuse, when that base is covered.
Quote: petroglyphBush only gave one stay of execution while governor.
http://youtu.be/m3uomRx4Q14
His conviction for the Orange Sox murder was unsound. It was the only murder he was found guilty of and sentenced to death for.
http://youtu.be/utYcFf93Srs
[among others]
Full versions;http://youtu.be/zdMbmdFOvTs
Quote: GandlerRomney released all of his tax records to the public (something Obama never did, heck his teeth had to get pulled before he would even present his birth certificate to the public, and he still never released his college transcripts).
Really? http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html Obama 2000-2006 tax returns. Also what other president was called to release his birth certificate it was stupid there was no reason to doubt his eligibility to be president as his mother was a US citizen granting him citizenship and there was plenty of proof he was born in Hawaii, including news announcements, before he released the birth certificate. As for college transcripts they are not commonly released http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/08/02/limbaugh-uses-dishonest-college-transcripts-arg/189096 . So you are literally wrong with every facet of that statement way to go.
Oh also interesting little factoid do you know who championed the release of multiple years of tax records Romneys father who released 12 years saying 1 year was meaningless http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/on-tax-returns-mitt-wont-follow-the-leader--his-dad/2012/07/11/gJQAMLy3cW_blog.html .
Quote: thecesspitHis conviction for the Orange Sox murder was unsound. It was the only murder he was found guilty of and sentenced to death for.
Thanks, you made me look it up.
I came across that short clip while I was looking for something else, [stuff about JFK].
It struck me odd because Texas is well known for executions and this was the only sentence commuted by W. Bush. A one off often catches my eye.
This guy, strangely enough escapes the death penalty in Texas.
In a state where people are put in prison for 6 years for an empty pipe. And under certain exceptions it was[?] legal to kill your wife for infidelity, [if you catch and kill them both]. I personally stay as far as I can from the lone star state.Quote:Lucas confessed 4 times
Her body was dumped near Georgetown, about 35 miles north of Austin in Williamson County, on Halloween 1979.
No witnesses or physical evidence linked Lucas to the crime, but he confessed four times. A jury in San Angelo convicted him and sentenced him to die. Although he had eight other murder convictions in Texas and one in West Virginia, only the Orange Socks case produced a death sentence.
In a state where people are put in prison for 6 years for an empty pipe. And under certain exceptions it was[?] legal to kill your wife for infidelity, [if you catch and kill them both]. I personally stay as far as I can from the lone star state.Quote: petroglyphThanks, you made me look it up.
I came across that short clip while I was looking for something else, [stuff about JFK].
It struck me odd because Texas is well known for executions and this was the only sentence commuted by W. Bush. A one off often catches my eye.
This guy, strangely enough escapes the death penalty in Texas.
It's very odd that he got a stay of execution over every other one, but it does appear Henry was not guilty of this particular murder.
Quote: TwirdmanReally? http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html Obama 2000-2006 tax returns. Also what other president was called to release his birth certificate it was stupid there was no reason to doubt his eligibility to be president as his mother was a US citizen granting him citizenship and there was plenty of proof he was born in Hawaii, including news announcements, before he released the birth certificate. As for college transcripts they are not commonly released http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/08/02/limbaugh-uses-dishonest-college-transcripts-arg/189096 . So you are literally wrong with every facet of that statement way to go.
Oh also interesting little factoid do you know who championed the release of multiple years of tax records Romneys father who released 12 years saying 1 year was meaningless http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/on-tax-returns-mitt-wont-follow-the-leader--his-dad/2012/07/11/gJQAMLy3cW_blog.html .
Bush released his transcripts and Obama's party made fun of him for his C average. So why would Obama be hesitant to release his? Donald Trump even honorably offered 5mil. For any charaties or poptical party if Obama released them for the record, and he still ignored...
As for tax records fair enough, though Obama apparatus y did not do 12 either. And yes I knew that about Romneys father as the news never stopped talking about before he committed to release his records.
But The Birth Certificate is most important of all, there is no law against a Tax evaders or a poor student running for President. But, there is a law against a non native born citizen running.
I know this: I have had to give my employer my original birth Certificate along with photo ID for every job since the age of 14. If I had to present my Birth Cert. To be a summer janitor while in high school, or to work at a store on the weekends, I don't think demanding the Most Powerful Man in the country proves his native status is too much to ask...
Quote: Gandler
I know this: I have had to give my employer my original birth Certificate along with photo ID for every job since the age of 14. If I had to present my Birth Cert. To be a summer janitor while in high school, or to work at a store on the weekends, I don't think demanding the Most Powerful Man in the country proves his native status is too much to ask...
I know this, I wasn't born in this country and am an American citizen and have worked a variety of jobs in this country never having to prove my citizenship.
I worked in a liquor store that also sold lottery tickets during college. Fill out an application, put my SSA number on the application, get interviewed, get job. No Id asked for. I asked for a lot of ID on the job though :-) Police watched us closely, only liquor store in the county open till 2am.
Quote: terapinedI know this, I wasn't born in this country and am an American citizen and have worked a variety of jobs in this country never having to prove my citizenship.
I worked in a liquor store that also sold lottery tickets during college. Fill out an application, put my SSA number on the application, get interviewed, get job. No Id asked for. I asked for a lot of ID on the job though :-) Police watched us closely, only liquor store in the county open till 2am.
Well I don't know what state you currently live in. But I have had to present my BC, and at least 1 photo ID for every job ever (original copies, and they scan and photocopy it). It's part of the state Citizenship verification law or something.
And since the birth place actually matters for the President (and is one of the few requirements) so expecting a President to verify it, is not too much to ask.
Quote: GandlerWell I don't know what state you currently live in. But I have had to present my BC, and at least 1 photo ID for every job ever (original copies, and they scan and photocopy it). It's part of the state Citizenship verification law or something.
And since the birth place actually matters for the President (and is one of the few requirements) so expecting a President to verify it, is not too much to ask.
Maryland back in the day.
As for the birth cert, he did release it.
I had no doubt he was an American citizen born in the USA.
This is absurd, there was a birth notice in the local paper.
Its much ado about nothing.
Whats wrong letting the voters decide period.
Say the people want the dalai lama, why not.
Power to the people. Let the people decide.
Let the people decide? It was decided 200+ years ago.
LPB
Quote: LowPingBoyLet's see, you were not born in the US, but are a US citizen. So, I guess you had to pass the test. What part of the constitutional requirements regarding birth place do you not understand? "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; ..."
Let the people decide? It was decided 200+ years ago.
LPB
I did not have to pass any test.
My father was in the service.
Maybe we should change the law.
Plenty of patriotic Americans serving overseas and have their family with them.
Its not unusual with all the embassies, consulates and military bases all over the planet for a patriotic American family to have a birth overseas.
Lots of patriotic Americans have their families with them working overseas for major American corporations in just about every major country on the planet.
These people help support our economy.
Cmon, lets change the law and support all American families.
The times have changed.
Its a small planet.
Quote: LowPingBoyLet's see, you were not born in the US, but are a US citizen. So, I guess you had to pass the test. What part of the constitutional requirements regarding birth place do you not understand? "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; ..."
Let the people decide? It was decided 200+ years ago.
LPB
Well stated.
Quote: terapinedMaryland back in the day.
As for the birth cert, he did release it.
I had no doubt he was an American citizen born in the USA.
This is absurd, there was a birth notice in the local paper.
Its much ado about nothing.
Whats wrong letting the voters decide period.
Say the people want the dalai lama, why not.
Power to the people. Let the people decide.
Yea he did release it. But it should be a thing that is. Verified for every canidate on the ballot, it also is a way to ensure they meet the age requirements.
The voters can decide on anyone who is eligible to run. Most people are. I think the age requirements are fair as are the citizenship/birth requirements.
And it's great that you had no doubts, but some people like to see evidence, especially if it is somebody who has a long history of living in other countries and travels a lot, it makes it an even fairer question. But luckily some honorable private watchdogs like Donald Trump and sheriff Joe Arpaio were there to ensure a fair evaluation occured.
And before somebody brings up race, it has nothing to do race, I think this should happen to everyone, after all people need to check the birth validation of the leader if anyone. But, yes if you have a history of travelling around and being out of the country a lot, and have foreign parents, that does make it slightly more necessary to double check.
Quote:My father was in the service.
Maybe we should change the law.
Plenty of patriotic Americans serving overseas and have their family with them.
Its not unusual with all the embassies, consulates and military bases all over the planet for a patriotic American family to have a birth overseas.
If you were born oversees for military reasons you are counted as a natural born citizen since the military's presence counts as America land while they are there (politcally, for birth purposes). So you can run for president.
I'm not. positive about embassies, but I would hope it is the same (I imagine it must be).
Quote: Gandler
If you were born oversees for military reasons you are counted as a natural born citizen since the military's presence counts as America land while they are there (politcally, for birth purposes). So you can run for president.
I'm not. positive about embassies, but I would hope it is the same (I imagine it must be).
Its more complicated, my mother was not an American citizen at time of my birth but she was married to an American citizen.
kind of like our President except it was his Mother that was the citizen and I definitly was born overseas :-)
My mother did become a citizen.
But anyway I work in corporate international travel.
Tons of US families overseas for say 2 to 5 years working for US corporations.
I arange relocation trips and home leave trips.
Those families with children born overseas should qualify.
Its now a small planet.
Quote: terapinedIts more complicated, my mother was not an American citizen at time of my birth but she was married to an American citizen.
kind of like our President except it was his Mother that was the citizen and I definitly was born overseas :-)
My mother did become a citizen.
But anyway I work in corporate international travel.
Tons of US families overseas for say 2 to 5 years working for US corporations.
I arange relocation trips and home leave trips.
Those families with children born overseas should qualify.
Its now a small planet.
Here is the precise criteria for being labeled "natural born" legally. I'm not a lawyer but it sounds like you should qualify since one of your parents was and lived in U.S. Prior to travel.
Anyone born inside the United States. The person must be “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. (This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.)
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person’s status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
Quote: GandlerBush released his transcripts and Obama's party made fun of him for his C average. So why would Obama be hesitant to release his? Donald Trump even honorably offered 5mil. For any charaties or poptical party if Obama released them for the record, and he still ignored...
As for tax records fair enough, though Obama apparatus y did not do 12 either. And yes I knew that about Romneys father as the news never stopped talking about before he committed to release his records.
But The Birth Certificate is most important of all, there is no law against a Tax evaders or a poor student running for President. But, there is a law against a non native born citizen running.
I know this: I have had to give my employer my original birth Certificate along with photo ID for every job since the age of 14. If I had to present my Birth Cert. To be a summer janitor while in high school, or to work at a store on the weekends, I don't think demanding the Most Powerful Man in the country proves his native status is too much to ask...
Clearly you didn't read the links since it clearly spelled out Bush did not release his transcripts and they were leaked. You don't get to take any sort of moral high ground for the actions of another person. It was unscrupulous for news to publish a leaked transcript for Bush but it is patently false to then claim that he released them as though he was a champion of transparency.
Also Obama never should have needed to release his birth certificate since it was obvious to all non racist/paranoid conspiracy theorist that he was eligible. He was clearly a native born citizen even without the birth certificate unless you want to claim that his mother wasn't his real mother since maternal citizenship passes through in the US.
Also again your wrong about the birth certificate anyways since he released the short form in June of 2008 this was the official birth certificate as was mentioned when it was released by every major news outlet as well as the Hawaiian government. Also what makes Obama so different from every other president that demands he release his birth certificate, McCain was born in Panama and spent time abroad didn't have to provide birth certificate to the general public, there have been other questions about past presidents that were even stronger and none of them released their birth certificate to the public but Obama just has to even though only lunatics called into question his legitimacy.
Have fun being wrong about basically everything some more though.
Quote: LowPingBoyLet's see, you were not born in the US, but are a US citizen. So, I guess you had to pass the test. What part of the constitutional requirements regarding birth place do you not understand? "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; ..."
Let the people decide? It was decided 200+ years ago.
LPB
Wow you are impressively wrong here. As was pointed out you do not have to be born in the US to be born a citizen. Now you could theoretically argue that being born a citizen doesn't make one a "natural born" citizen but that is stupid and again doesn't change the fact that you are patently wrong here "Let's see, you were not born in the US, but are a US citizen. So, I guess you had to pass the test." Oh and a reason you're wrong about having to be born in the US to be president is because of the way the law is currently interpreted
"Considering the history of the constitutional qualifications provision, the common use and meaning of the phrase "natural-born subject" in England and in the Colonies in the 1700s, the clause's apparent intent, the subsequent action of the first Congress in enacting the Naturalization Act of 1790 (expressly defining the term "natural born citizen" to include a person born abroad to parents who are United States citizens), as well as subsequent Supreme Court dicta, it appears that the most logical inferences would indicate that the phrase "natural born Citizen" would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "at birth" or "by birth""
Do try to be less wrong in the future.
Quote: GandlerHere is the precise criteria for being labeled "natural born" legally. I'm not a lawyer but it sounds like you should qualify since one of your parents was and lived in U.S. Prior to travel.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
So I would qualify and it doesn't matter where Obama was born according to the above.
So why all the controversy about the birth cert? If I qualify being born in a foreign hospital in a foreign land then Obama definitely qualifies.
Quote: terapinedSo I would qualify and it doesn't matter where Obama was born according to the above.
So why all the controversy about the birth cert? If I qualify being born in a foreign hospital in a foreign land then Obama definitely qualifies.
Almost 20% of congress has dual citizenship so why not the POTUS?
Schwarzenegger in 2016, fun times. You know he will have at least one sequel.
He could run as a republican on the democratic ticket if he hooks back up with Maria. Plus he smokes cigars, could get some big tobacco donations.
Quote: TwirdmanClearly you didn't read the links since it clearly spelled out Bush did not release his transcripts and they were leaked. You don't get to take any sort of moral high ground for the actions of another person. It was unscrupulous for news to publish a leaked transcript for Bush but it is patently false to then claim that he released them as though he was a champion of transparency.
Also Obama never should have needed to release his birth certificate since it was obvious to all non racist/paranoid conspiracy theorist that he was eligible. He was clearly a native born citizen even without the birth certificate unless you want to claim that his mother wasn't his real mother since maternal citizenship passes through in the US.
Also again your wrong about the birth certificate anyways since he released the short form in June of 2008 this was the official birth certificate as was mentioned when it was released by every major news outlet as well as the Hawaiian government. Also what makes Obama so different from every other president that demands he release his birth certificate, McCain was born in Panama and spent time abroad didn't have to provide birth certificate to the general public, there have been other questions about past presidents that were even stronger and none of them released their birth certificate to the public but Obama just has to even though only lunatics called into question his legitimacy.
Have fun being wrong about basically everything some more though.
So I was wrong about the genesis of the transcript release? Either way they were released, I never claimed moral high ground.
And nice way to throw around rasism accusations, I guess asking for evidence is Racism...
And yes as I said McCain should have released his, as should everyone to prove they are eligible to run (BC can validate both age and status eligibility in one).
And a large group of people wanted him to release it (including many Dems), so it was by no means a fringe movement, many reputable republicans, even Donald Trump thought that he should release it.
-Also, how is it morally comparable for somebody to request with consent to review their documents versus somebody unconseually leaking their documents?
Quote: GandlerWell I don't know what state you currently live in. But I have had to present my BC, and at least 1 photo ID for every job ever (original copies, and they scan and photocopy it). It's part of the state Citizenship verification law or something.
And since the birth place actually matters for the President (and is one of the few requirements) so expecting a President to verify it, is not too much to ask.
For a legit job you must fill out form I-9, you need not prove citizenship but you must prove your legality to work in the USA. 99% of people show a drivers license and SS card. I usually show a passport which is as good as both. One guy I hired showed a Ukrainian passport and his green card.
Quote: Twirdman
Also Obama never should have needed to release his birth certificate since it was obvious to all non racist/paranoid conspiracy theorist that he was eligible. He was clearly a native born citizen even without the birth certificate unless you want to claim that his mother wasn't his real mother since maternal citizenship passes through in the US.
It doesn't matter how "obvious" you think it is, being a natural born citizen is a Constitutional requirement and Obama is not exempt from having to prove something so simple. In fact the statement by the governor of Hawaii that "he knew the parents" makes it even more suspect since what are the odds of that.
I do believe, however, some racists on the left tried to disqualify McCain because he was born in the Canal Zone, I do not remember much uproar about that.
Quote: AZDuffmanFor a legit job you must fill out form I-9, you need not prove citizenship but you must prove your legality to work in the USA. 99% of people show a drivers license and SS card. I usually show a passport which is as good as both. One guy I hired showed a Ukrainian passport and his green card.
It doesn't matter how "obvious" you think it is, being a natural born citizen is a Constitutional requirement and Obama is not exempt from having to prove something so simple. In fact the statement by the governor of Hawaii that "he knew the parents" makes it even more suspect since what are the odds of that.
I do believe, however, some racists on the left tried to disqualify McCain because he was born in the Canal Zone, I do not remember much uproar about that.
The disqualifying McCain due to being born in the Canal Zone never really had any clout behind it. There is a major difference between that where you had some racist idiots who don't understand what natural born means compared to the continual number of lawsuits and major people calling out Obama even after his eligibility were proved.
Also his eligibility was proved long before he released the long form birth certificate everyone clamored for. He released his normal birth birth certificate in June of 2008. He was born to a mother who was a citizen. His birth announcement appears in a Hawaiian newspaper at the time of his birth. He proved his eligibility far more then any other politician was forced to before Obama yet this issue was somehow still a question in 2012 after he had been president for 4 years. This was still an issue after he released his long form birth certificate showing that this had nothing to do with a genuine worry about eligibility and was an insane inane conspiracy theory just like every other insane inane conspiracy theory that has been presented about presidents throughout history and didn't warrant a response.
Quote: Twirdman
Also his eligibility was proved long before he released the long form birth certificate everyone clamored for. He released his normal birth birth certificate in June of 2008. He was born to a mother who was a citizen. His birth announcement appears in a Hawaiian newspaper at the time of his birth. He proved his eligibility far more then any other politician was forced to before Obama yet this issue was somehow still a question in 2012 after he had been president for 4 years. This was still an issue after he released his long form birth certificate showing that this had nothing to do with a genuine worry about eligibility and was an insane inane conspiracy theory just like every other insane inane conspiracy theory that has been presented about presidents throughout history and didn't warrant a response.
I will just repeat that I say boo hoo hoo for Obama. How many times and how many people said Bush was "appointed, not elected?"
FWIW I feel every person who runs should have to prove via birth certificate to whatever federal bureau oversees people running for POTUS. Also FWIW a newspaper announcement is not proof of citizenship or anything else, it is an ad somebody bought. It does not connect you to the person in the ad, either.
I am sorry, but Obama is not exempt from people asking him to prove something. Sarah Palin was dogged for all kinds of information about her administration, for example. And a person as divisive as Obama is going to get asked more than average.
Quote: AZDuffmanI will just repeat that I say boo hoo hoo for Obama. How many times and how many people said Bush was "appointed, not elected?"
FWIW I feel every person who runs should have to prove via birth certificate to whatever federal bureau oversees people running for POTUS. Also FWIW a newspaper announcement is not proof of citizenship or anything else, it is an ad somebody bought. It does not connect you to the person in the ad, either.
I am sorry, but Obama is not exempt from people asking him to prove something. Sarah Palin was dogged for all kinds of information about her administration, for example. And a person as divisive as Obama is going to get asked more than average.
Sarah Palin was dogged about legitimate ongoing ethics investigations into her. And again Obama provided a birth certificate in 2008 before he was ever elected and even without that unless you are arguing he has been lying about his mother his entire life there was no question about his eligibility. So what legitimate reason was there for him to provide a long form birth certificate after all of that. No reasonable individual questioned his eligibility and no Donald Trump and Arpaio are not reasonable.
Quote: KeyserUnlike the Clintons or Kennedys, the Bush family is the closest thing to American royalty. That being said Romney is the best.
On the subject of American Dynastic Families, consider the Frelinghuysen family of New Jersey.
They have had family members active in state and/or national politics regularly since this country was founded.
see: Link
They never placed anyone higher than Senator, but have had seven generations of family members reach elected office.
Quote: TwirdmanSarah Palin was dogged about legitimate ongoing ethics investigations into her. And again Obama provided a birth certificate in 2008 before he was ever elected and even without that unless you are arguing he has been lying about his mother his entire life there was no question about his eligibility. So what legitimate reason was there for him to provide a long form birth certificate after all of that. No reasonable individual questioned his eligibility and no Donald Trump and Arpaio are not reasonable.
As she should be. Nobody here has said that anyone should be exempt from scrutiny by the media or the public. Any public figure, especially somebody vying for the most powerful public office in the country deservers scrutiny, and harsh criticism for any moral misgiving.
But her alleged misgivings, even if true, did not disqualify her to be President (or VP), though it may say something about her as a person, she would still have every legal right to be on the ballot... So its not a fair equivalency.
Donald Trump is as reasonable as anyone, he has a right to ask questions he wants, he just happens to be wealthy and have a large platform so he has the resources to self-publicize more than most people do.
And Sherriff Arpaio was (maybe still is I don't know his current status) an elected Law Enforcement Officer concerned about the security of his state, so he has every right to publically ask questions.
Everyone, from what I can tell, supports scrutiny of Candidates, it just seems one side gets more offended and plays certain cards when their candidates get asked questions...
Quote: GandlerAs she should be. Nobody here has said that anyone should be exempt from scrutiny by the media or the public. Any public figure, especially somebody vying for the most powerful public office in the country deservers scrutiny, and harsh criticism for any moral misgiving.
But her alleged misgivings, even if true, did not disqualify her to be President (or VP), though it may say something about her as a person, she would still have every legal right to be on the ballot... So its not a fair equivalency.
Donald Trump is as reasonable as anyone, he has a right to ask questions he wants, he just happens to be wealthy and have a large platform so he has the resources to self-publicize more than most people do.
And Sherriff Arpaio was (maybe still is I don't know his current status) an elected Law Enforcement Officer concerned about the security of his state, so he has every right to publically ask questions.
Everyone, from what I can tell, supports scrutiny of Candidates, it just seems one side gets more offended and plays certain cards when their candidates get asked questions...
But again these were not legitimate reasons for scrutiny they are only slightly more reasonable then claims that Bush was a reptilian and he didn't take a DNA test to disprove that. Again to believe that he wasn't eligible we have to believe he has lied about his biological mother his entire life and somehow no one knew, he forged a traditional birth certificate, and people had the forethought to place a fake birth announcement in the newspaper on the day he was born to make him appear born in the US. Since the only advantage of being born in the US amounts to arguable satisfying the most strict of definitions of natural born citizen which is not traditionally used so you are basically arguing that someone placed his name in a newspaper announcement to make it appear he was born in the US so he could become president decades later that is insanity.
Again what legitimate reason is there to question his eligibility. I mean you may argue oh well we should make everyone release a long form birth certificate, which seems just silly when there is no question of eligibility, but the fact is it has not been that way ever in this country so why the sudden clamoring for it now?
Quote: TwirdmanBut again these were not legitimate reasons for scrutiny they are only slightly more reasonable then claims that Bush was a reptilian and he didn't take a DNA test to disprove that.
Well technically speaking, unless I don't understand the Reptilian crowd enough (which I likely don't), as long as he was born in America, even if Reptilian, he is still a humanoid, so legally speaking, he can be on the ballot :)
Heck, I wish we had a President that was part of some elite master alien-human race mix, maybe they would finally have the guts to get something significant done....
There are very few requirements to be President. Age, and Birth Right, are two of them, and both can be solved by mandatory Birth Certificate verification...
Quote:Again to believe that he wasn't eligible we have to believe he has lied about his biological mother his entire life and somehow no one knew, he forged a traditional birth certificate, and people had the forethought to place a fake birth announcement in the newspaper on the day he was born to make him appear born in the US. Since the only advantage of being born in the US amounts to arguable satisfying the most strict of definitions of natural born citizen which is not traditionally used so you are basically arguing that someone placed his name in a newspaper announcement to make it appear he was born in the US so he could become president decades later that is insanity.
I had a birth announcement too , and I have a huge family that can attest to my birth. I still have to present my birth cert (And, actually I actually had to get my long form print out from my birth state, since I only had a short form when I was of age to get IDs and apply for jobs when I turned 14).
Quote:Again what legitimate reason is there to question his eligibility. I mean you may argue oh well we should make everyone release a long form birth certificate, which seems just silly when there is no question of eligibility, but the fact is it has not been that way ever in this country so why the sudden clamoring for it now?
Same as above. Everyone should be checked. And yes, I did say John McCain should show his, you probably don't believe me, but everyone should be checked that has always been my view. I just turned 18 in time to register to vote in Obama's first run, and I actually vigorously defended him against specific attacks, by rebutting that McCain should show his as well.
You can't enlist in any branch of the military (I'm using a federal example to avoid an argument on state employment laws), as any job, without showing your Birth Certificate (along with many other forms and documents). If a 17 Year old who enlists as a cook in the Navy Reserves, has to show his birth certificate before singing and swearing in, I don't think asking the Commander and Chief of the whole military to present his before swearing in is too much to ask...
(you also, have to release your full high school diploma and transcripts, but I'm not going to go there...)
Quote: TwirdmanSarah Palin was dogged about legitimate ongoing ethics investigations into her.
Not really "legitimate." More a bunch of lefties or should I just say "sexist leftists" or "misogynistic lefties" because after all, Palin is so awesome that the only reason lefties can possibly hate her is that they fear strong women? (for those of Rio Linda, that is using an absurd statement about sexism to show how liberals sound when they claim racism in the reason Obama was asked for his birth certificate.)
Quote:And again Obama provided a birth certificate in 2008 before he was ever elected and even without that unless you are arguing he has been lying about his mother his entire life there was no question about his eligibility. So what legitimate reason was there for him to provide a long form birth certificate after all of that.
Because it is about providing simple proof about his eligibility that everyone should be asked to provide. He simply owes it to the American People that he asked to serve. He works for us, not the other way around. (Well, it is supposed to work that way.)
