Justified to not pay back?
also cheat in chess, monopoly, etc.
Anyway, a couple of years ago I got into sports betting. It's stupid, but this was pre-counting BJ etc. I had my winning weeks and losing weeks. More losing weeks as expected. I come to find that other people got kickbacks on losses. I never received them. Other people have received kickbacks, but I was alerted that I would not get one(a red flag, but I found out about those deep into my betting run) He also kept a percentage of my losses. I kind of understand that, yet he lied and said he did in general. At one point, I was deep in the hole and told him to close the account. I was DONE. At this point, I knew what I owed and did pay that part back. He told his cousin(who secretly hates him and tells me all the things he says about me) to "keep him betting" so he can keep profiting off of me. I was pretty addicted so he attempted to profit off that. He even attempted to bribe my friend to convince him to keep me going. So, with all that said, does it make sense to pay him back? Keep in mind he had to pay the bookie himself which makes me happy.
Edit: I added a few things to the original post because I reminded of more details. This happened well over a year ago. On a side note, if the Spurs and Lakers in Game 4 of the playoffs in 2013 could score 4 points over the last 3 minutes of the game this situation doesn't happen.
Are you better with a knife or a gun?
Ask yourself this: what will he do if you refuse to pay him?
Quote: Lemieux66There's a guy who thinks I owe him $4400 for sports betting losses. He's not a bookie, but he's the cousin of my good friend. He basically collects losses and pays the wins every week. A real prick. The kind of guy whom(and he's done this) tried to teach people new card games and attempted to make bets on the exact same game. Not even a practice game for free. He will
also cheat in chess, monopoly, etc.
Anyway, a couple of years ago I got into sports betting. It's stupid, but this was pre-counting BJ etc. I had my winning weeks and losing weeks. More losing weeks as expected. I come to find that other people got kickbacks on losses. I never received them. His cousin suspects that he kept my kickback. He also kept a percentage of my losses. I kind of understand that, yet he lied and said he did in general. At one point, I was deep in the hole and told him to close the account. I was DONE. He told his cousin(who secretly hates him and tells me all the things he says about me) to "keep him betting" so he can keep profiting off of me. I was pretty addicted so he attempted to profit off that. He even attempted to bribe my friend to convince him to keep me going. So, with all that said, does it make sense to pay him back? Keep in mind he had to pay the bookie himself which makes me happy.
So, you bet, you lost, and now you are using this as an excuse not to pay?
Disgraceful.
Quote: Lemieux66There's a guy who thinks I owe him $4400 for sports betting losses. He's not a bookie, but he's the cousin of my good friend. He basically collects losses and pays the wins every week. A real prick. The kind of guy whom(and he's done this) tried to teach people new card games and attempted to make bets on the exact same game. Not even a practice game for free. He will
also cheat in chess, monopoly, etc.
Anyway, a couple of years ago I got into sports betting. It's stupid, but this was pre-counting BJ etc. I had my winning weeks and losing weeks. More losing weeks as expected. I come to find that other people got kickbacks on losses. I never received them. His cousin suspects that he kept my kickback. He also kept a percentage of my losses. I kind of understand that, yet he lied and said he did in general. At one point, I was deep in the hole and told him to close the account. I was DONE. He told his cousin(who secretly hates him and tells me all the things he says about me) to "keep him betting" so he can keep profiting off of me. I was pretty addicted so he attempted to profit off that. He even attempted to bribe my friend to convince him to keep me going. So, with all that said, does it make sense to pay him back? Keep in mind he had to pay the bookie himself which makes me happy.
Sounds to me like you owe the guy $4400. None of the other info you posted changes that, at least IMO.
A true gentleman honors his debts, especially gambling debts. When making a bet with another person you are putting your honor on the line. If you lose, you pay. No excuses!
I told him to close the account down. He refused. I did pay back all losses from before I told him this and more after. I felt it was the right thing to do and I was planning to pay back the entire thing. But before I did I was advised by my friends and his family to not give him a dime. I mean his character is awful. Technically I'm glad this happened. I wish it was a 44000 dollar debt just so he can
be further in the hole.
go to hell.
If a year ago, you won a $50 bet, wasn't paid and forgot about it. A month ago, you made a bet and lost $100 to same person. You find out he never pays his losses. Do you pay him $50, or $100 when he says you never made a bet a year ago and won't admit it, or $0, or does he owe you $50 with the second bet being void?Quote: gts4ever2. Thou shalt honor thy gambling debts
A true gentleman honors his debts, especially gambling debts. When making a bet with another person you are putting your honor on the line. If you lose, you pay. No excuses!
Quote: Lemieux66He lied about kickbacks. I was supposed to get a portion of my losses back(other people he collected from have gotten this) and he never gave them to me. I wasnt aware that others received this until much later on.
What does that have to do with anything? You made a bet and you lost. So you pay.
When you made the bet was there any agreement that you would get a kickback? The answer is no. The fact that other people managed to negotiate a better deal than you did means that after you pay your debts you should work on your negotiation skills.
You were not lied to. You were not cheated in any way. You made a bet and you lost, and now you are trying to weasel your way out of it.
When I go to a casino, they may give me a 5% discount on my losses. Suppose, later, I find out that someone else is getting a 10% discount. Does that mean that I don't have to pay off my markers? Of course not. I made the deal that I made. If others makes a better deal, good for them -- that has nothing to do with me.
You made a bet and you lost. So you pay. End of story. It doesn't matter if the guy is a horrible person, and it doesn't matter if other people got better deals than you did. None of that is relevant to the fact that you made a bet and you lost.
Quote: Lemieux66He lied about kickbacks. I was supposed to get a portion of my losses back(other people he collected from have gotten this) and he never gave them to me. I wasnt aware that others received this until much later on.
I told him to close the account down. He refused. I did pay back all losses from before I told him this and more after. I felt it was the right thing to do and I was planning to pay back the entire thing. But before I did I was advised by my friends and his family to not give him a dime. I mean his character is awful. Technically I'm glad this happened. I wish it was a 44000 dollar debt just so he can
be further in the hole.
When you made the bets you didn't know about kickbacks so it couldn't have been a condition of the bet. You lost a bet that you agreed to and he honored the bet you made with him so pay him.
Quote: gts4ever2. Thou shalt honor thy gambling debts
A true gentleman honors his debts, especially gambling debts. When making a bet with another person you are putting your honor on the line. If you lose, you pay. No excuses!
Unless you are too big to fail. Then its ok
Quote: MrVI suppose it depends: can you beat him in a fight?
Are you better with a knife or a gun?
Ask yourself this: what will he do if you refuse to pay him?
no, i will ask:
have you got insurance?
This I disagree if they were rightfully supposed to go to Lemmy. Big if though. I understand nothing about this whole account thing since I would never get involved with betting on credit strictly borrowed to gamble.Quote: TwirdmanWhen you made the bets you didn't know about kickbacks so it couldn't have been a condition of the bet. You lost a bet that you agreed to and he honored the bet you made with him so pay him.
You are not justified then.Quote: Lemieux66Oh and it was 4400 exactly.
If the bookie is supposed to pay him.... that is between the bookie and his assistant, you don't get involved there.
In short, don't pay.
Did He agreed upfront you would get part of the kickbacks? (this is the key part)
I'm going to assume you did have an agreement on the losses and what you are saying is: He got the loss rebate after you ended the deal and came up with a figure on how much you owed. He never included the rebates into the final figure and just kept that money.
If this is the case you need to find out how much he was supposed to owe you and take that off the 4400 you owe him.
What is he claiming: He never got the rebate money? He dose not owe you part of the rebate money , if so why?
I think you need to re explain in detail what exactly happened and what was discussed as far as the deal goes.
If you only found out about his side deal after the fact. I'm not sure what to say. I think you feel he conned you into thinking he could win at sports and he knew all along he was free rolling a win or he would get huge kickbacks on your losses. If he didn't discuss the kickbacks he was getting, you got conned but you should have known better. Its like using a sports betting service that's charging a big fee on wins.
Quote: AxelWolfIf i understand you right. You had a sports betting deal going on where you put up money for an online account and let him take over all the betting.
Did He agreed upfront you would get part of the kickbacks? (this is the key part)
I'm going to assume you did have an agreement on the losses and what you are saying is: He got the loss rebate after you ended the deal and came up with a figure on how much you owed. He never included the rebates into the final figure and just kept that money.
If this is the case you need to find out how much he was supposed to owe you and take that off the 4400 you owe him.
What is he claiming: He never got the rebate money? He dose not owe you part of the rebate money , if so why?
I think you need to re explain in detail what exactly happened and what was discussed as far as the deal goes.
If you only found out about his side deal after the fact. I'm not sure what to say. I think you feel he counned you into thinking he could win at sports and he knew all along he was free rolling a win or he would get huge kickbacks on your losses. If he didn't discuss the kickbacks he was getting, you got conned but you should have known better. Its like using a sports betting service that's charging a big fee on wins.
No no, I made all the picks. He gave his cousin access to his online account(which he then let me use).
He did NOT agree to give kickbacks. As I said before, he technically didn't give his cousin kickbacks. Usually those are the people you would give favors to, but he's weird.
I don't know exactly what the kickback percentage is. I assume between 5-10% but that's a logical but total guess.
Towards the very end of things, I was told about kickbacks. I wanted a kickback. I was refused. This should have got me to stop, but I was in the hole pretty deep and needed a method to get out of it.
WTF is your gripe then? You made the bets you lost.Quote: Lemieux66No no, I made all the picks. He gave his cousin access to his online account(which he then let me use).
He did NOT agree to give kickbacks. As I said before, he technically didn't give his cousin kickbacks. Usually those are the people you would give favors to, but he's weird.
I don't know exactly what the kickback percentage is. I assume between 5-10% but that's a logical but total guess.
Towards the very end of things, I was told about kickbacks. I wanted a kickback. I was refused. This should have got me to stop, but I was in the hole pretty deep and needed a method to get out of it.
This type of sports referral program is common, lots of people do it, some even extend credit. its legitimate. It is no different then referring poker players to poker sites and getting a % of their rake or a casino referral program.
PS. as far as him encouraging you to bet,. What did you expect, you knew he was a snake when you dealt with him.
Even worst, some of them places offer %50 back on losses if you roll it over enough, this is probably why he wanted you to keep betting.
Quote: AxelWolfWTF is your gripe then? You made the bets you lost.
This type of sports referral program is common, lots of people do it, some even extend credit. its legitimate. It is no different then referring poker players to poker sites and getting a % of their rake or a casino referral program.
PS. as far as him encouraging you to bet,. What did you expect, you knew he was a snake when you dealt with him.
Even worst, some of them places offer %50 back on losses if you roll it over enough, this is probably why he wanted you to keep betting.
As for a previous question, his job was to collect the money. If he couldn't , it's his obligation to pay. The bookie is paid right now by him.
One extra bit of information. He knew that I had a low paying job and made huge bets. He was fully aware that I couldn't pay all of it at once if I fell deep into the hole. Keep that in mind when I speak of telling him to close the account, he refusing, and trying to bribe his cousin to get me to keep betting.
Now I know on the surface a debt is a debt. A debt should be paid back. But hey, he made a bad investment and should have closed the account before it got out of hand when I asked him to.
Quote: Lemieux66I owe him $4400 for sports betting losses.
Quote: Lemieux66a debt is a debt. A debt should be paid back.
That's the core of it, right there.
The rest is just you trying to justify doing otherwise, and trying to get everyone else to endorse your choice.
It's to convoluted for us to completely understand.Quote: Lemieux66As for a previous question, his job was to collect the money. If he couldn't , it's his obligation to pay. The bookie is paid right now by him.
One extra bit of information. He knew that I had a low paying job and made huge bets. He was fully aware that I couldn't pay all of it at once if I fell deep into the hole. Keep that in mind when I speak of telling him to close the account, he refusing, and trying to bribe his cousin to get me to keep betting.
Now I know on the surface a debt is a debt. A debt should be paid back. But hey, he made a bad investment and should have closed the account before it got out of hand when I asked him to.
As far as him not closing the account. You're a big boy, stop betting. Just because you have a credit card does not mean you have to over charge what you cant afford.
If your cousin encouraged you to keep betting perhaps you need to take that up with him. As I said before you knew this guy was a snake but you still wanted to play with him.
Pay or don't pay. you have to live with yourself. Obviously you have some reservations and doubts about the situation or you wouldn't be asking the question.
If you were looking for justification and or support for your actions here on this forum, not going to happen. This is a tough crowd with lots of gamblers. A gamblers biggest sin against its peers is welshing(clearly what you are doing). Late payments and mistakes can be forgiven but blatantly not paying just because someone is an ass, is a gambling sin.
Quote: DieterThat's the core of it, right there.
The rest is just you trying to justify doing otherwise, and trying to get everyone else to endorse your choice.
Nah, I'm just asking for opinions. It makes me feel good that he tried to use me and got screwed in the end.
I see it as a win for everyone. Bookie got paid, I didn't pay, and the guy learned a lesson about how to treat people and bad investments.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's to convoluted for us to completely understand.
As far as him not closing the account. You're a big boy, stop betting. Just because you have a credit card does not mean you have to over charge what you cant afford.
If your cousin encouraged you to keep betting perhaps you need to take that up with him. As I said before you knew this guy was a snake but you still wanted to play with him.
Pay or don't pay. you have to live with yourself. Obviously you have some reservations and doubts about the situation or you wouldn't be asking the question.
If you were looking for justification and or support for your actions here on this forum, not going to happen. This is a tough crowd with lots of gamblers. A gamblers biggest sin against its peers is welshing(clearly what you are doing). Late payments and mistakes can be forgiven but blatantly not paying just because someone is an ass, is a gambling sin.
His cousin was on my side. He refused to try to get me to bet again(sadly the bribe would have been part of future losses. If it was up front I told him that we could lie and just split the money).
I would think not.
So, what can, what will, the collector do to collect on your welched bets?
Is violence an option?
I understand your position, but there are consequences to all of our actions.
Quote: MrVIs the debt legally enforceable?
I would think not.
So, what can, what will, the collector do to collect on your welched bets?
Is violence an option?
I understand your position, but there are consequences to all of our actions.
Completely illegal. Particularly in the state of NY. I have a friend whom is a cop and he told me so.
He's not gonna do a thing. The bookie is paid already and he has no muscle to back it up.
What does it matter if it legally enforceable? We all know its not.Quote: MrVIs the debt legally enforceable?
I would think not.
So, what can, what will, the collector do to collect on your welched bets?
Is violence an option?
I understand your position, but there are consequences to all of our actions.
The point is he made bets and didn't pay.
All this is sounding very bad on your part.Quote: Lemieux66His cousin was on my side. He refused to try to get me to bet again(sadly the bribe would have been part of future losses. If it was up front I told him that we could lie and just split the money).
Quote: Lemieux66As for a previous question, his job was to collect the money. If he couldn't , it's his obligation to pay. The bookie is paid right now by him.
One extra bit of information. He knew that I had a low paying job and made huge bets. He was fully aware that I couldn't pay all of it at once if I fell deep into the hole. Keep that in mind when I speak of telling him to close the account, he refusing, and trying to bribe his cousin to get me to keep betting.
Now I know on the surface a debt is a debt. A debt should be paid back. But hey, he made a bad investment and should have closed the account before it got out of hand when I asked him to.
Dude someone collecting bets isn't your mommy its not his job to get you to stop its his job to get you to bet as much as possible to make as much money as possible. Once you get passed all the oh wow is me I was taken advantage of you get down to the core which is you are an adult who entered into an agreement to make a bet with another adult you lost those bets so its up to you to pay. Now ultimately it's your choice what you end up doing but you are very unlikely to get any sympathy here or anyone saying yeah its totally fine to not pay the debt.
What will the collector do, what can he do, to coerce you to pay if you refuse to do so?
Is violence a viable option?
If so, it "makes sense" to pay, to avoid harm to yourself or your family.
Otherwise it is a strictly moral call on your part.
Quote: MrVThe OP asks whether it "makes sense" to pay the debt back to the collector.
What will the collector do, what can he do, to coerce you to pay if you refuse to do so?
Is violence a viable option?
If so, it "makes sense" to pay, to avoid harm to yourself or your family.
Otherwise it is a strictly moral call on your part.
He's not going to do anything. He certainly won't try anything himself and his friends wouldn't want to get involved.
I'm happy to screw over a bad person. Not even involving this situation, he's lied and tried to cheat people at various times.
The question about the legality shouldn't even be asked. When you make an informal friendly bet you are putting your honor on the line to pay if you lose. "Street justice" is also not legal for those who don't pay illegal bookies, but still exists.
Quote: Lemieux66To be honest with you guys, I couldn't go to bed at night if I gave him another dime. I actually LIKE screwing people over like this.
Like this was not obvious to anyone who had done collecting for bookies.
If you win , you are a genius. If you lose, f*** him.
Sure made my job easier !
Quote: WizardI say you owe $4400. I didn't understand the part about kickbacks and loss rebates, but since none of that was promised to you, there is not a valid claim. Sounds to me like you're looking for excuses to not honor a gambling debt.
The question about the legality shouldn't even be asked. When you make an informal friendly bet you are putting your honor on the line to pay if you lose. "Street justice" is also not legal for those who don't pay illegal bookies, but still exists.
The bookie has already been paid. He called me twice after this happened and never since. Obviously this means he was paid.
If it was a transaction solely between the bookie and I, I would pay up.
Taking a little longer to pay back, or paying in installments can be understood, but just flat out refusing payment because you don't like someone in the betting chain is unacceptable. Would you have refused to take the money if you had won? I think we all know the answer to that one.
Quote: MidwestAPJust read this thread, and I can't believe the OP is trying to justify welshing on a bet. Let me get this straight, you acknowledge you made the bets and lost, and you acknowledge that there wasn't any discount deal in place up front? If that is correct, you got to pay. And if you don't, you can be assured you will receive pretty harsh treatment from most on this site.
Taking a little longer to pay back, or paying in installments can be understood, but just flat out refusing payment because you don't like someone in the betting chain is unacceptable. Would you have refused to take the money if you had won? I think we all know the answer to that one.
I would have made sure I got the money. I have friends who I can go with who will assure me of that(one won 4k on a longshot 2012 Giants Super Bowl win when they were struggling). The guy wanted a piece of that win but he was refused.
Here's a question: Why pay someone back if his pain makes you happy, you have a good reputation with everyone else, his own family says to not pay him back, and he doesn't have the muscle to force me to pay? It doesn't make any sense to me.
I can believe it. Heard this shit too many times from guys who could not pay, they wanted to, just did not have the money, wife would leave them if she knew, etc. And all the while they were betting with a new bookie.
Of course once I put the word out and no bookie would take their action, they would start making payments. NO VIG INVOLVED.
Quote: Buzzard" Just read this thread, and I can't believe the OP is trying to justify welshing on a bet. "
I can believe it. Heard this shit too many times from guys who could not pay, they wanted to, just did not have the money, wife would leave them if she knew, etc. And all the while they were betting with a new bookie.
Of course once I put the word out and no bookie would take their action, they would start making payments. NO VIG INVOLVED.
I'm done with sports betting. The fun part is he told me not to alert his girlfriend that he has the job. So I have sweet blackmail leverage.
Quote: Buzzard" Just read this thread, and I can't believe the OP is trying to justify welshing on a bet. "
I can believe it. Heard this shit too many times from guys who could not pay, they wanted to, just did not have the money, wife would leave them if she knew, etc. And all the while they were betting with a new bookie.
Of course once I put the word out and no bookie would take their action, they would start making payments. NO VIG INVOLVED.
But in this case he DOESN'T WANT to pay even if he has the ability, pretty low!
Quote: Lemieux66The bookie has already been paid. He called me twice after this happened and never since. Obviously this means he was paid.
If it was a transaction solely between the bookie and I, I would pay up.
Again, the whole story was confusing, but if a third party paid for you, then you would owe him the money.
Quote: Lemieux66Here's a question: Why pay someone back if his pain makes you happy, you have a good reputation with everyone else, his own family says to not pay him back, and he doesn't have the muscle to force me to pay? It doesn't make any sense to me.
If you don't understand the principle that a gentleman honors his debts, no matter how much he dislikes the person he has to pay, then there is no hope explaining it you. A person either has good character or he doesn't. I hope anybody who ever considers doing business with you has the chance to read what you just wrote.
Quote: WizardAgain, the whole story was confusing, but if a third party paid for you, then you would owe him the money.
If you don't understand the principle that a gentleman honors his debts, no matter how much he dislikes the person he has to pay, then there is no hope explaining it you. A person either has good character or he doesn't. I hope anybody who ever considers doing business with you has the chance to read what you just wrote.
No way. I'm teaching him a lesson. He took a bad risk and he kept the account open when I asked him to close it. The young lad is now wiser for it(at least I hope so!).
Quote: Lemieux66No way. I'm teaching him a lesson. He took a bad risk and he kept the account open when I asked him to close it. The young lad is now wiser for it(at least I hope so!).
No way Lemieux, just because the account wasn't closed, doesn't excuse you from paying your debts. Don't try to cloud a pretty clear responsibility. Just because the account wasn't closed means you got to freeroll additional bets.
If I call my credit card company and close my account, and for whatever reason, it's not done, it doesn't give me carte blanche to spend on the card and not pay the bill!
Quote: MidwestAPNo way Lemieux, just because the account wasn't closed, doesn't excuse you from paying your debts. Don't try to cloud a pretty clear responsibility. Just because the account wasn't closed means you got to freeroll additional bets.
If I call my credit card company and close my account, and for whatever reason, it's not done, it doesn't give me carte blanche to spend on the card and not pay the bill!
There's a big difference. You can ruin your credit!
Quote: Lemieux66There's a big difference. You can ruin your credit!
I'm not sure how to handle this since you outed yourself, but in line with the Wizard, and the general responses here, I can let you know that in light of your statements above, I can't do business with you on credit; and I suspect others would also be reluctant to trust your commitment to pay.
Quote: AyecarumbaI'm not sure how to handle this since you outed yourself, but in line with the Wizard, and the general responses here, I can let you know that in light of your statements above, I can't do business with you on credit; and I suspect others would also be reluctant to trust your commitment to pay.
Oh I never borrow. If I were to go broke, I go home and save up a bankroll to play again.
