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FrankScoblete
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:30:14 AM permalink
The Truth: Pro-Choice versus Pro-Life

I am sick of euphemisms. When you go to the doctor or dentist and he says, “You will feel a little uncomfortable” and then you hit the ceiling because of the pain, you have just experienced a euphemism. Why doesn’t he just say, “This is gonna hurt like hell”?

Okay, let me lay this out for you in clear terms.

***Pro-Choice? What the hell is that? What people who are Pro-Choice mean is that a woman has the right to kill her fetus. Why don’t they just say that? “Women have a right to kill their fetuses.” You can make a law that a woman can kill fetuses in the following circumstances (which is what has been done) but the woman calls the shots (so to speak). Why the silly euphemism of “Pro-Choice”? Call it “Pro-Fetal-Kill.”

Yes, of course, Pro-Choice sounds better than “Pro-Fetal-Kill” but it means the same thing. Certainly Pro-Choice sounds nice for polite or political or dinner-time discussion. It’s not as bloody and gooey sounding as you twirl your spaghetti.

Seriously, it doesn’t upset me to hear a woman say, “I am going to kill the fetus inside me.” Hey, she can do that if she wants according to the law. I just like the honesty as opposed to the euphemism. I also love when Pro-Choicers think that the term encompasses other things as well as fetus killing. That’s just camouflage, the other stuff. Fetal killing is at the heart of the matter.

BUT…

*** Pro-Life? What’s with this “Pro-Life” stuff? The churches and temples that push pro-life have very violent histories of killing (witches, adulteresses and the like). Some of these religions and sects within religions still crush women. What the Pro-Lifers are really against is killing fetuses. So why don’t they call themselves “Anti-Fetal-Kill”?

Because Anti-Fetal-Kill sounds a little too negative; while Pro-Life sounds so very nice, clean and encompassing. Sadly many of the very people who are pro-life send their kids off to war where a hell of a lot of anti-life takes place. Adult humans get killed; kid humans get killed and fetal humans get killed. Not very clean or sanitary is it? So really these people aren’t Pro-Life in the truest sense at all. They just don’t want dead fetuses.

Sometimes Pro-Lifers will throw in the idea of “End of Life Care.” No, don’t do that; it’s the same as the Pro-Choice folks loading up all other ideas so killing fetuses can be hidden in a heap of other events. Make “End of Life Care” a separate idea. I want the “Anti-Fetal-Kill” and the “Pro-Fetal-Kill” to be pure concepts, like pain.

Let’s just call a spade a spade and not a heart or diamond. Drop the euphemisms and say what we are really talking about. Language has power and if uncomfortable means pain then tell me, “Scobe you are about to feel pain.” Please, no more bull-do-do to coin a euphemism.

Frank Scoblete author of “Confessions of a Wayward Catholic”
AZDuffman
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:44:46 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete


Let’s just call a spade a spade and not a heart or diamond. Drop the euphemisms and say what we are really talking about. Language has power and if uncomfortable means pain then tell me, “Scobe you are about to feel pain.” Please, no more bull-do-do to coin a euphemism.



I started calling politicians like Obama and Warren "pro-abortion" a few years back. This is what they are. When you brag that abortion should be available "on-demand" and often at taxpayer expense you are not "pro-choice" you are pro-abortion. When you have rallies yearly to celebrate Roe 40 years later, sorry but you are pro-abortion.

Abortion is really not a major issue for me, excepting two things. First is what I said above. Second is concern for society because a society that celebrates abortion is a society in decline. The USA shows decline in so many areas since about 1965 it is alarming.
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gpac1377
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:09:16 AM permalink
Here's the most recent Libertarian Party position (quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_abortion ):

"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."

That would be my preference. If you want to label me "pro-abortion," ok, whatever.
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Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:14:50 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

***Pro-Choice? What the hell is that? What people who are Pro-Choice mean is that a woman has the right to kill her fetus. Why don’t they just say that?



Because that's not the point.

A woman has a right to determine the use of her own body. This includes the right to end a pregnancy withing certain limits (reasonable limits on rights do not negate rights). It's true that abortion means killing a fetus, but that's not the objective. The objective is to end the pregnancy.

Let's try an analogy. Suppose Joe has bone cancer in his right arm. The treatment, unfortunately, involves amputating the arm. If he sought treatement, would you insisit on making it a point to say "Joe wants to have his arm chopped off"? Or would you say he's seeking treatment to save his life?
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FrankScoblete
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:09:47 AM permalink
I am not sure the arm thing works, Nareed. After all, the fetus is another human being. Yes, the mother can decide to terminate the fetus' life but that fetus (short of being ill) could go on to a full life. A sick arm can't go on to good-arm-dom. In addition, the question with the arm is this: Are you a pro-surgery or anti-surgery person or doctor? The issue is surgery.

Ending the pregnancy is a euphemism for killing the fetus. You can end a pregnancy by delivering the baby and giving it up for adoption.

Women do not have full rights to their bodies in our society; nor do men have full rights to their bodies. As a living person you can't offer to give your healthy heart to a sick patient in dire need of a heart; nor can any man do this because killing yourself this way is against the law. Of course, being killed in a war is perfectly okay.

You can't prostitute yourself in almost all areas of the country. It's your body; you should be able to sell it. (Prostitution is truly awful. I'm just using this as an example. I say legalize it and shun it.)

Now if you want to proclaim "a woman has a right to use her body as she wishes" you can create a name such as Body Control or something that says what it means. (I know "Body Control" stinks as a saying but I couldn't come up with a good one.)

Oh, well, I've had enough of a break. I gotta get back to writing my new book.

My latest published book is "Confessions of a Wayward Catholic."
gpac1377
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:25:28 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

killing yourself ... is against the law.


It shouldn't be.

Quote:

I say legalize it and shun it.


(referring to prostitution)

Yes, exactly. You can support individual liberty without endorsing destructive behavior.

Frank, you should write a book. Have you published anything?
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Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:32:46 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

I am not sure the arm thing works, Nareed. After all, the fetus is another human being.



No, a fetus is not a human being. It's a potential human being. That's why there are reasonable limits for abortion. The pregnant woman, on the other hand, is not a potential woman but an actual one.

Quote:

Women do not have full rights to their bodies in our society; nor do men have full rights to their bodies.



Throughout human history there ahve been unjust laws that limit people's rights. That does not make them any less unjust or any more immoral. Morally men and women have full and absolute rights to the use of their own bodies.

Quote:

As a living person you can't offer to give your healthy heart to a sick patient in dire need of a heart; nor can any man do this because killing yourself this way is against the law. Of course, being killed in a war is perfectly okay.

You can't prostitute yourself in almost all areas of the country. It's your body; you should be able to sell it. (Prostitution is truly awful. I'm just using this as an example. I say legalize it and shun it.)



You should have a legal right to give up your heart if you wish. I can even see cases where it would be rational to do so (very rare and very unlikely cases, though; must be the influence of Dr. Hsieh's book on Moral Luck). Of coruse, just because you have that moral right, does not men a surgical team has an obligation to provide you with the means.

And we're agreed prostitution shouold be legal and nobody's business but that of the people involved in it. How do you feel about legalizing all drugs? That will happen within my lifetime, I'm sure of it.
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:33:14 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

Women do not have full rights to their bodies in our society; nor do men have full rights to their bodies. As a living person you can't offer to give your healthy heart to a sick patient in dire need of a heart; nor can any man do this because killing yourself this way is against the law. Of course, being killed in a war is perfectly okay.

You can't prostitute yourself in almost all areas of the country. It's your body; you should be able to sell it. (Prostitution is truly awful. I'm just using this as an example. I say legalize it and shun it.)



Aren't these perfect examples in favor of legalization?

Sure, we "can't" do these things, but free-will and all that jazz. As a result, people still do them, just usually in much more awful ways than they could otherwise. Would not a clean, regulated brothel be better than some dirty street walker? Wouldn't needle induced euthanasia be better than jumping off the Golden Gate? Wouldn't an observed and controlled medical procedure be better than stabbing around with a coat hanger?
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FrankScoblete
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:03:51 AM permalink
Good points all around. I tend to say legalize all drugs but don't use them or, at least, make them illegal for my grandchildren to use. Legalize gambling in all states. There are a lot of things I think should be legal that I don't like and wouldn't do. Cigarettes should be legal but I don't think people should smoke. That type of thing.

Anyway back to my original piece. No euphemisms.

Nareed, do you really think that a fetus is not a human being? A fetus has more awareness than my mother did at the end of her life. I always considered my mother human even though she was in the lowest depths of Alzheimers. She wasn't growing like a fetus, she was rotting right in front of me. The last few weeks I don't think she had any consciousness. Now, if you ask me had my mother said I could kill her should she get to that point (and I wouldn't be arrested) I would have killed her to stop her suffering. But she was a human being right up to the time of her death. (A human being I loved all the way through.)

Do you think that using the idea that a fetus is somehow less of a human than, say, me, that makes it okay to kill it? Or is that a convenient excuse to get out of the moral issue that you have the right to kill a human being at this stage of his/her life? Defining away humanity allows us to kill more easily than if we concede the individual we can kill is a human being. When Margaret Sanger wanted to get rid of the mentally retarded she made them less than human as a way to argue her point.

So I am not afraid to grant to the fetus the humanity that it has.

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mickeycrimm
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:05:31 AM permalink
Well, Frankie, you sure know how to get a guy going. I support a women's right to choose, to a limit. First trimester, after that it's murder. And I damn sure don't support partial birth abortion, where they partially pull the baby out of the womb, then kill it. If they pull the baby all the way out of the womb and kill it they could be charged with murder, so they only pull it half way out. What? Do they think I'm an idiot?

Terms that movements use to push their agendas are laughable, like "Pro Choice" and "Pro Life." How about this all time classic "Patriot Act." If I give up my rights I'm a patriot. If I don't I'm a traitor. It looks like I'm a traitor because I don't care what the law says. I ain't giving up any of my rights. My rights are my heritage, guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States. If you step on my rights I will step on your head.

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DRich
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:15:22 AM permalink
I am one of the few people that admits to being Pro-Abortion. I think it should be the default option until the woman can show she is competent and capable of raising a child.
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wudged
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:19:58 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am one of the few people that admits to being Pro-Abortion. I think it should be the default option until the woman can show she is competent and capable of raising a child.



Quote: Maddox

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up.



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beachbumbabs
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:20:36 AM permalink
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, though the pro-abortion forces were the first to use this name to self-identify and get away from being called "pro-abortion". Pro-choice means that the option to abort needs to be available, in a safe environment, and that the decision rightfully belongs to a woman/her family/her doctor. This should never have been a political issue.

Pro-life is more of a misnomer than pro-choice, in my opinion. Pro-lifers are all about the fetus, no matter how damaged, no matter how conceived, no matter how much it risks the mother. Once the baby is born, though, "not my problem". Really?

It's certainly possible and worthy to be against abortion as a choice for you and your family; that presumes that you and your family will take some responsibility for raising the child you chose to have. Beyond that, why is it anyone else's business?

I find it ironic that there's a large overlap between those who would prohibit abortion in all cases and those who would deny any government assistance to those raising children, from EITC to education to WIC to welfare to Obamacare to a hundred other anti-quality of life stances. Talk about painting disadvantaged people into a corner, not to mention a fair amount of hypocrisy.

Sorry for the 30-second sound bites; this topic can't be covered in a few sentences. I'm sure I'll regret commenting on this thread, but, oh well.
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kewlj
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:22:47 AM permalink
It's funny, as a liberal on most social issues, this one of the biggest, does nothing for me. I just don't care either way. If the majority of people decide abortion should be legal, I am ok with that. It the majority decide it is not legal, I am ok with that. Maybe, I don't want to care. Maybe I don't want to think about it.

But what I do find strange is the pro-lifer are adamant that poor and young folks who are ill-prepared to bring a new life into the world and care for it, should carry their unwanted pregnancy to term. But then when that child is born, they want no part of supporting it via the expanding the welfare rolls. You can't have it BOTH ways pro-lifers. If you want to force unwanted pregnancies to term, be prepared to play a part in supporting that child.
Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:23:39 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

Good points all around. I tend to say legalize all drugs but don't use them or, at least, make them illegal for my grandchildren to use.



I would support amking it illegal for your under-age granchildren to use them, or have people sell it to them. Your adult grandchildren are on their own.

Quote:

Nareed, do you really think that a fetus is not a human being?



Yes, I think a fetus is not an actual human being, but a potential one. At least unquestionably so in the first trimester, possibly so in the second, but not during the third. I'd be fine restricting abortions to only approximately during the first trimester. I say approximately, because it's hard to determine the exact date of conception. Naturally with exceptions involving the lfe and health of the mother.

Quote:

A fetus has more awareness than my mother did at the end of her life.



That's a different situation entirely. A person never ceases to be one until they die, including brain death. Furhter, people can, and many do, leave isntructions for what to do in such cases.

A pregnancy poses risks. Not high risks for most women, but there are some risks for all women. It imposes obligations some women cannot fuflfill or that would interfere with their current lives, or that they don't want to fulfill. So the lives, wishes and circumstances of actual women trump a potential person every time.

Quote:

Or is that a convenient excuse to get out of the moral issue that you have the right to kill a human being at this stage of his/her life?



It's not an excuse, it's a fact. And I will thank you to take me at my word, too.

A 3-month fetus has not developed to the point where it can be considered a person. More important, it can't develop at all without making use of a woman's body. A woman has a right to the use of her body.

I am not pro-abortion. I think abortion should be rare and only a last resort. But the choice on whether or not to abort rests solely and entirely on the woman carrying the fetus.
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s2dbaker
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:32:22 AM permalink
I'm pro choice. I don't have a uterus so I don't think it's my place to tell a broad what she can or can't do with it. If she wants to barbeque her babies then I'm all for it, especially the ones that cry on airplanes! Abort those first please! The more abortions that we have, the better and I'll be more than happy to chip in a pile of tax bux to pay for them.
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:36:45 AM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

Good points all around. I tend to say legalize all drugs but don't use them or, at least, make them illegal for my grandchildren to use. Legalize gambling in all states. There are a lot of things I think should be legal that I don't like and wouldn't do. Cigarettes should be legal but I don't think people should smoke. That type of thing.



Preach!

Same here. I suppose, if a label were required, one would stamp a big, red, "Pro-choice" on my head. That does not mean, in any way, that I'm actually "pro", that I condone it, or anything else. There are many things I support the freedom of that I detest. Like certain religious sects, and being a Bills fan.

Quote: mickeycrimm

How about this all time classic "Patriot Act." If I give up my rights I'm a patriot. If I don't I'm a traitor. It looks like I'm a traitor because I don't care what the law says. I ain't giving up any of my rights. My rights are my heritage, guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States. If you step on my rights I will step on your head.



YEAH!

I'd rather have more freedom of stuff I don't like, than less of what I do. They're both a negative to my overall happiness, but one is opinion. The other is Authoritarianism. Opinions are easier to sway, ignore, or escape. Authoritarianism is just offensive to everything a man is.
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onenickelmiracle
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:38:44 AM permalink
This should just be summed up as a discussion not of politics, but of public relations. It puzzles me actually how it's a recent phenomena, but I don't know for sure why.

I'm betting it has to with honor and professionalism or somewhere along those lines and in the past, there would be some level of ostracism. Blatantly misleading people would have been looked upon as a short-term method which will fail you eventually. At some point these paid liars just discovered they could just change clients and no longer have to deal with the consequences.


The genie is out now and can anything be done about it realistically? Someone would either explain how it is impossible or tell you someday just to blow you off. You can be sure it doesn't benefit the country as a whole the way games are played. These wedge issues I repeat are just distractions changing conversations.
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beachbumbabs
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:43:03 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

This should just be summed up as a discussion not of politics, but of public relations. It puzzles me actually how it's a recent phenomena, but I don't know for sure why.

I'm betting it has to with honor and professionalism or somewhere along those lines and in the past, there would be some level of ostracism. Blatantly misleading people would have been looked upon as a short-term method which will fail you eventually. At some point these paid liars just discovered they could just change clients and no longer have to deal with the consequences.


The genie is out now and can anything be done about it realistically? Someone would either explain how it is impossible or tell you someday just to blow you off. You can be sure it doesn't benefit the country as a whole the way games are played. These wedge issues I repeat are just distractions changing conversations.



nickle,

Not shooting at you in saying this, but it's not a recent phenomenon. It's been fighting words for over 50 years, from the activism to change the law in the 60's when thousands of women were dying needlessly, to those fighting to oppose the decision since the day Roe v Wade was announced. It waxes and wanes with political agendae, but it's always there.
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FrGamble
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:45:50 AM permalink
My understanding of Pro-Life is what is referred to as "the seamless garment of life". This means that from conception till natural death every human life, whether potential (which seems to me an incorrect and silly concept) or not, is of inestimable value. Obviously this means human life should not only be protected but blessed. That is why social justice issues and living wages and immigration reform and affordable health care for all are also part of my understanding of pro-life. It is why I am against the death penalty, abortificants, and polluting our environment. Basically I am pro-life because I am pro-human.
Buzzard
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:47:46 AM permalink
Homes for unwed mothers were a national trend from the beginning of the 20th century until the 1970s, when they fell from use.

At least I have no seen billboards for any lately. Damn, showing my age again. Should have said no pop-up ads on my computer.
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:57:22 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

It is why I am against the death penalty, abortificants, and polluting our environment. Basically I am pro-life because I am pro-human.



What about warfare? Whether as large scale as WWII or as small as defending your home, I suspect there are moments where even you must, not promote or condone, but at least accept that someone has to die.

Your stance on what I will refer to as "abortion by choice" is obvious. But in serious medical cases, is not the mother also blessed?
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onenickelmiracle
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January 31st, 2014 at 10:20:33 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

nickle,

Not shooting at you in saying this, but it's not a recent phenomenon. It's been fighting words for over 50 years, from the activism to change the law in the 60's when thousands of women were dying needlessly, to those fighting to oppose the decision since the day Roe v Wade was announced. It waxes and wanes with political agendae, but it's always there.

By mentioning a recent phenomena, I was referring to public relations in the form we know sound bites and all.

I don't personally believe choice of any kind should be preemptively be blocked. A religious stance mocking God by wrongfully representing him without obviously his/her approval would be my opinion to violate the first commandment by trying in vain to deny the free will he has given, along the lines of those trains of thought for those considering themselves believers.
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Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 10:28:05 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

This means that from conception till natural death every human life, whether potential (which seems to me an incorrect and silly concept) or not, is of inestimable value.



Human beings are part of nature and live under the inescapable yoke of natural laws. All life above the bacterial stage starts as potential. A seed is not a tree, an egg is not a chicken, and an embryo is not a human being. In nature seeds and eggs often die, one way or another, before they can complete the potential stage. Embryos can die, too, but this is far more unusual. A woman, for example, can go through multiple pregnancies without ever having a misscarriage.

Seeds and eggs vary, but many won't keep developing if left to themselves. Seeds often need to be consumed by animals and then deposited on the grund with manure. Eggs often require a heat source to power their metabolism. An embryo left to itself simply dies. Curiously it seems human embryos very often fail to attach to the uterus. That is, they are left to themselves.

If all this strikes you as silly or incorrect, take it up with reality, or with your deity. I just live here.
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January 31st, 2014 at 10:48:47 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Human beings are part of nature and live under the inescapable yoke of natural laws. All life above the bacterial stage starts as potential. A seed is not a tree, an egg is not a chicken, and an embryo is not a human being. In nature seeds and eggs often die, one way or another, before they can complete the potential stage. Embryos can die, too, but this is far more unusual. A woman, for example, can go through multiple pregnancies without ever having a misscarriage.

Seeds and eggs vary, but many won't keep developing if left to themselves. Seeds often need to be consumed by animals and then deposited on the grund with manure. Eggs often require a heat source to power their metabolism. An embryo left to itself simply dies. Curiously it seems human embryos very often fail to attach to the uterus. That is, they are left to themselves.

If all this strikes you as silly or incorrect, take it up with reality, or with your deity. I just live here.



My son almost died during childbirth. Twice, actually. I remember my then-wife pleading to just "take him out" and if she died, so be it.

While that's mostly a memory now, I can still recollect the feelings that were present that day. To call it a cataclysmic apocalypse of emotion would be like calling Katrina a "rainy day".

I remember thinking in hindsight about the fact that we had been in a Catholic hospital, and as a result, certain procedures were verboten. Not that the loss of those affected us, they didn't apply, but it made me think. "What if?"

Like Nareed, the thought of a mass of cells being removed, a "human being being terminated", if that does you better, bothers me little. The thought of "partial birth", on the other hand, I find beyond abhorent. But while my belief that abortion should be available means that something I find repugnant must exist, that is much easier than me thinking of the alternative. That someone, who may be in the same emotional state that I had been, would be denied a choice by something as emotionless and soulless as a governmental body.

I just can't dig that.
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Mosca
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January 31st, 2014 at 11:05:36 AM permalink
Frank, while I appreciate your balanced approach, to think that there could possibly be any middle ground on an internet forum is naive at best.
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Beethoven9th
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January 31st, 2014 at 12:03:31 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

Frank, you should write a book. Have you published anything?

Google his name...lol


Quote: AZDuffman

I started calling politicians like Obama and Warren "pro-abortion" a few years back. This is what they are. When you brag that abortion should be available "on-demand" and often at taxpayer expense you are not "pro-choice" you are pro-abortion. When you have rallies yearly to celebrate Roe 40 years later, sorry but you are pro-abortion.

Abortion is really not a major issue for me, excepting two things. First is what I said above. Second is concern for society because a society that celebrates abortion is a society in decline. The USA shows decline in so many areas since about 1965 it is alarming.

+1

Another homerun for AZ.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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January 31st, 2014 at 1:28:47 PM permalink
I am not looking for either side to compromise on a web site. I just want straight talk about the issue and how we name it. I do think we have a case of "euphemasia" when we deal with death.
rxwine
rxwine
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January 31st, 2014 at 3:37:41 PM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

I just want straight talk about the issue and how we name it.



Don't you think some PETA members could demand straight talk on "murder" of animals? Would you just assume you have to take their default terms and start from there? I don't.

Murder usually assumes wrong is being done. Someone who doesn't believe a pig farm is murder camp for pigs doesn't have to take that default position.. Killing, execution, murder, all can be seen as different terms in different contexts.

The pigs aren't going to be offended either way (AFAIK), so that's not a consideration, at least in this case.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 31st, 2014 at 5:23:15 PM permalink
Legalized abortion is a sign of a society out
of control. It's all about me me me. I want
so many choices, so many chances of a
do over, that it involves killing a human
fetus.

For centuries Japan had pro choice also. If
you committed any crime, petty theft to
murder, you were executed very shortly
after you were caught. As a result, they had
an extremely low crime rate. They didn't
throw you in a jail and pay for your meals,
they got rid of you.

People understood that kind of choice. In
countries where abortion is legal, choice
has been carried to the absurd extreme.
You aren't punished for your selfish act,
the product of your selfish act is punished.

(yes, I know there are rapes and incest
abortions, but they are a teeny tiny part of
the whole.)
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
98Clubs
98Clubs
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January 31st, 2014 at 5:34:07 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Because that's not the point.

A woman has a right to determine the use of her own body. This includes the right to end a pregnancy withing certain limits (reasonable limits on rights do not negate rights). It's true that abortion means killing a fetus, but that's not the objective. The objective is to end the pregnancy.

Let's try an analogy. Suppose Joe has bone cancer in his right arm. The treatment, unfortunately, involves amputating the arm. If he sought treatement, would you insisit on making it a point to say "Joe wants to have his arm chopped off"? Or would you say he's seeking treatment to save his life?



If Joe's cancerous arm is cut off, Joe might live a healthy life. Joe's arm, however is doomed.
If Joe's normally healthy arm is cut off, Doctors would try to reattatch it.

nareed: you can't possibly equate this to abortion. Pregnancy involves a cancerous growth in the womb ????
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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January 31st, 2014 at 5:40:22 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

that it involves killing a human
fetus.
(yes, I know there are rapes and incest
abortions, but they are a teeny tiny part of
the whole.)



I am pro-choice, or pro abortion, or pro legalized fetal killing, or whatever you want to call it.....

I find it incongruous to be 'pro-life' yet make an 'exception' for a fetus conceived via rape... It is not the fetus' fault how it was conceived.
98Clubs
98Clubs
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January 31st, 2014 at 5:44:52 PM permalink
One also has the choice of tubal ligation, a modest proceedure.
One also has the choice of simply handing over the born child to a Hospital, no questions asked.
Or do like they do in South America, put the kid on the streets at age three. Child-slums anyone?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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January 31st, 2014 at 5:49:27 PM permalink
Quote: Face

What about warfare? Whether as large scale as WWII or as small as defending your home, I suspect there are moments where even you must, not promote or condone, but at least accept that someone has to die.

Your stance on what I will refer to as "abortion by choice" is obvious. But in serious medical cases, is not the mother also blessed?



As part of my pro-life stance I would be against war, as a failure of humanity, but there can be conceivable times when it is just. Likewise when in protecting life there is a real, unavoidable, but unintended consequence that a violent attacker dies then it can be accepted. Similarly, there can be times where an unavoidable action must take place that saves the life of one person but has the unintended consequence of the death of another, i.e. a life saving procedure on a mother that leads to the tragic end of a pregnancy. In Catholic Moral teaching this is called the principle of double effect.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:00:42 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Human beings are part of nature and live under the inescapable yoke of natural laws. All life above the bacterial stage starts as potential. A seed is not a tree, an egg is not a chicken, and an embryo is not a human being.



A seed is the beginning of a tree it can be nothing else. Every tree began as a seed, there is nothing potential about it, if its a healthy seed given enough moisture and nutrients it will become a tree - it is meant to become a tree! An embryo is a unique and unrepeatable human being. At the moment of conception we have all the DNA, genes, and stuff to make us who we are, our body type, hair color, etc. Every human being begins at conception. A human embryo will not become a chicken or a tree, but a unique and wonderful human being. It is when we are born that we recognize our potential to be the kind, loving, and good person God has made us to be.
Beardgoat
Beardgoat
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:03:18 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I am pro-choice, or pro abortion, or pro legalized fetal killing, or whatever you want to call it.....

I find it incongruous to be 'pro-life' yet make an 'exception' for a fetus conceived via rape... It is not the fetus' fault how it was conceived.



Bingo. That's why i am pro choice.
Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:07:22 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

(yes, I know there are rapes and incest
abortions, but they are a teeny tiny part of
the whole.)

+1

I'll never understand why libs use 1% of abortions to justify the other 95%+.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:17:06 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Legalized abortion is a sign of a society out
of control. It's all about me me me. I want
so many choices, so many chances of a
do over, that it involves killing a human
fetus.

For centuries Japan had pro choice also. If
you committed any crime, petty theft to
murder, you were executed very shortly
after you were caught. As a result, they had
an extremely low crime rate. They didn't
throw you in a jail and pay for your meals,
they got rid of you.

People understood that kind of choice. In
countries where abortion is legal, choice
has been carried to the absurd extreme.
You aren't punished for your selfish act,
the product of your selfish act is punished.

(yes, I know there are rapes and incest
abortions, but they are a teeny tiny part of
the whole.)



I am always fascinated by those who think that everyone else but themselves shoud abstain from sex.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:38:21 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

A seed is the beginning of a tree it can be nothing else. Every tree began as a seed, there is nothing potential about it, if its a healthy seed given enough moisture and nutrients it will become a tree - it is meant to become a tree! An embryo is a unique and unrepeatable human being. At the moment of conception we have all the DNA, genes, and stuff to make us who we are, our body type, hair color, etc. Every human being begins at conception. A human embryo will not become a chicken or a tree, but a unique and wonderful human being. It is when we are born that we recognize our potential to be the kind, loving, and good person God has made us to be.



Sing with me!


There are Jews in the world. There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then There are those that follow Mohammed, but I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is: They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer. You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're A Catholic the moment Dad came, Because:

Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted. Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,... ...God get quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed... ...In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful. Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's. Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite iraaaaaate!

-Monte Python, the Meaning of Life

(Sorry I couldn't resist).
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Buzzard
Buzzard
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January 31st, 2014 at 6:47:15 PM permalink
(yes, I know there are rapes and incest
abortions, but they are a teeny tiny part of
the whole.)


What if that teeny tiny part is your daughter ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Nareed
Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:11:53 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

A seed is the beginning of a tree it can be nothing else. Every tree began as a seed, there is nothing potential about it, if its a healthy seed given enough moisture and nutrients it will become a tree - it is meant to become a tree! An embryo is a unique and unrepeatable human being. At the moment of conception we have all the DNA, genes, and stuff to make us who we are, our body type, hair color, etc. Every human being begins at conception. A human embryo will not become a chicken or a tree, but a unique and wonderful human being. It is when we are born that we recognize our potential to be the kind, loving, and good person God has made us to be.



I award you the prize for the longest non-sequitur I've seen this year.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:12:32 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

nareed: you can't possibly equate this to abortion. Pregnancy involves a cancerous growth in the womb ????



Do you know what an analogy is?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:15:01 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

One also has the choice of tubal ligation, a modest proceedure.



I wouldn't call major surgery "modest."

Quote:

One also has the choice of simply handing over the born child to a Hospital, no questions asked.



Does one have the choice of not facing any risk at all during an unwanted pregnancy? Of not having any additional responsibilities? Of not suffering any discomfort? Of not putting one's life on hold for months? Of not spending any additional money?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Twirdman
Twirdman
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:28:29 PM permalink
It still amazes me that anti-abortion people also seem to be anti-contraceptive and anti-comprehensive sex education. Can't let them get an abortion but also can't give them the tools to avoid pregnancy. It really is based on simply wanting to punish people for having sex and there is no reason for it. If you want to reduce the number of pregnancies make sure contraceptives like condoms and the pill are readily available and people know how to use them. The fact of the matter is abstinence only education is a fairly for a large section of the population. Telling most people to just not have sex doesn't work so instead properly equip them to have sex and watch unwanted pregnancy rates plummet.
Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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January 31st, 2014 at 7:34:22 PM permalink
Oh brother, now we're gonna hear some more nonsense about the Pope changing Catholic doctrine on abortion...
Fighting BS one post at a time!
Calder
Calder
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:07:21 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

If you want to reduce the number of pregnancies


Not sure that's exactly what's being debated.

Quote: Twirdman

It really is based on simply wanting to punish people for having sex and there is no reason for it.


And I'm confident you'd have hard time finding a pro-lifer thinking of a baby "punishment."
Twirdman
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January 31st, 2014 at 8:22:55 PM permalink
Quote: Calder

Not sure that's exactly what's being debated.


And I'm confident you'd have hard time finding a pro-lifer thinking of a baby "punishment."



Sorry that should have said abortions not pregnancies and while some pro life people may not feel a baby is punishment the fact is it does make things more difficult especially if you are a high school student or even a university student. Also the pregnancy itself is a major difficulty during those times that has to be overcome and again this could be mitigated by simply providing better sex education.
Beardgoat
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:43:45 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

+1

I'll never understand why libs use 1% of abortions to justify the other 95%+.



I'm not a lib, and i never justified 95% of abortions.

I think it's absurd and terrible that a woman would have an abortion just because she can't afford a kid or doesn't want the inconvenience. But I absolutely cannot comprehend how you would force a rape victim to have a child
Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:48:03 PM permalink
Quote: Beardgoat

I'm not a lib, and i never justified 95% of abortions.

I think it's absurd and terrible that a woman would have an abortion just because she can't afford a kid or doesn't want the inconvenience. But I absolutely cannot comprehend how you would force a rape victim to have a child


I was just commenting on a post. I apologize if you thought it was aimed at you.

As for abortion, my 3 exceptions are: Rape, Incest, Life of the mother. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of abortions fall into the "Convenience" category.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
FrGamble
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January 31st, 2014 at 9:54:32 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

It still amazes me that anti-abortion people also seem to be anti-contraceptive and anti-comprehensive sex education. Can't let them get an abortion but also can't give them the tools to avoid pregnancy. It really is based on simply wanting to punish people for having sex and there is no reason for it. If you want to reduce the number of pregnancies make sure contraceptives like condoms and the pill are readily available and people know how to use them. The fact of the matter is abstinence only education is a fairly for a large section of the population. Telling most people to just not have sex doesn't work so instead properly equip them to have sex and watch unwanted pregnancy rates plummet.



Or better yet get rid of pornography and stop treating women as objects to be used for pleasure and watch the unwanted pregnancies and STDs plummet.

Again it comes down to a pro-life issue of recognizing the inherent dignity of every human person be they unborn or a beautiful woman, we cannot use or discard someone when they aren't pleasing to us or convenient for us anymore.

Let me try to also clear up my rambling earlier for Nareed. Your bad analogies don't work whether it is comparing pregnancy to cancer or somehow trying to say that because a human being is still developing it makes them any less of human being. When that seed of a tree is planted and sprouts you are killing a tree when you dig it up. When a human egg is fertilized by the sacred sperm it has all it needs to become a unique and unrepeatable human person, it you kill it at any time you are ending a human life. I don't understand how potentiality means anything in this conversation other than yet another reason to not kill someone before they reach their potential.
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