2016 Election
Then someone who clearly has been brainwashed by their lies about PP selling baby parts goes out and kills a cop and two civilians and we get *crickets* from most of them.
Quote: terapinedNobody on the Left labels anti-gay people as killers or muderers
But on the right, they use that vile tactic for abortion providors which heats the rhetoric and therefore shootings occur because these nuts take the right wing anti-abortion propaganda literally.
Let's take this in two parts so that nothing is misunderstood...
First, I do not condone any of the violence members of the LBGT population has gone through over the years. They didn't deserve that and it should not have happened. My comparison has nothing to do with support of those repugnant acts.
However, the loose definition some are using for labeling people "terrorists" is the reason for my question, not anything else.
There is a group of gay marriage supporters who seek to create a culture that does not allow opposition to their position for any reason. The loose definition of "terrorism" being used here as a vehicle to attack Christians based on this attack by a nut case can be stretched just as I have stretched it.
No, I don't really consider people who support gay marriage as "terrorists"...I do find the ones who attack everyone who opposes gay marriage as "bigots" a bit over the top.
There is not yet even a tie to Christianity in the shooting case...
-NPR
"... Neighbors said they recognized Dear from television news coverage of Friday's shootings, in which police said he killed three people, including a police officer, and wounded nine others. They said he looked more beaten down than the last time they had seen him, and that his beard was new — but that he was the same aloof, angry man they remembered.
"'He complained about everything,' said another neighbor who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity, saying that he feared for his security. 'He said he worked with the government, and everybody was out to get him, and he knew the secrets of the U.S.A. He said, "Nobody touch me, because I've got enough information to put the whole U.S. of A in danger." It was very crazy.'"
-NPR
He was clearly a nutbag. If he did even make the "baby parts" comment (as allegedly stated by an anyomous cop who claimed to hear it and told the news....) then it was one of many things on a long nonsensical rant....
He was more likley motivated by being a total nutbag.
There is no comparison to Islamic violence. Also, nobody who was killed was a staff member, or a customer of PP, so if he was bent on killing all of the unarmed people in the building, he did a pretty bad job.
Quote: ams288Candidates on the right such as Ted Cruz and Chris Christie like to demonize Black Lives Matter as promoters of anti-police violence, which is just another ignorant lie.
Then someone who clearly has been brainwashed by their lies about PP selling baby parts goes out and kills a cop and two civilians and we get *crickets* from most of them.
"Donald Trump says Robert L. Dear, who killed three people at a Planned Parenthood center in Colorado on Friday, is a “maniac” who did a “terrible thing.”
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/29/trump-planned-parenthood-shooter-was-a-maniac-and-mentally-disturbed-video/#ixzz3su7037jJ
"What we really have to start asking ourselves is what can we do as a nation to rectify the situation,” Carson said today on ABC’s “This Week.” "I think we should talk about the actual facts. If we can get rid of the rhetoric from either side and actually talk about the facts, I think that’s when we begin to make progress.”
Carson condemned the shooting at the clinic, calling it a hate crime.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-carson-urges-peaceful-dialogue-planned-parenthood-wake/story?id=35461837
Praying for the loved ones of those killed, those injured & first responders who bravely got the situation under control in Colorado Springs
— Ted Cruz (@tedcruz) November 28, 2015
Senseless violence has brought tragedy to Colorado Springs. I pray for the families in mourning and have hope our nation can heal. -John
— John Kasich (@JohnKasich) November 28, 2015
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/261419-cruz-is-first-gop-candidate-to-tweet-about-planned
I know that the liberal press is having a field day and is failing to mention (in many instances) that O'Malley did not comment until later, either.
Quote: ams288Candidates on the right such as Ted Cruz and Chris Christie like to demonize Black Lives Matter as promoters of anti-police violence, which is just another ignorant lie.
I find this statement funny in a way. So all Christians and Republicans are somehow promoting violence like what happened in Colorado by opposing abortion and some of them for calling abortion providers "murderers" yet BLM can say whatever it wants about the police (which they should when the police shoot someone without justification) and we can have riots and other violence...but they did not promote any of it....
You really can't have it both ways...
Quote: RonCI find this statement funny in a way. So all Christians and Republicans are somehow promoting violence like what happened in Colorado by opposing abortion and some of them for calling abortion providers "murderers" yet BLM can say whatever it wants about the police (which they should when the police shoot someone without justification) and we can have riots and other violence...but they did not promote any of it....
You really can't have it both ways...
The difference is there is plenty of videos of BLM members actually verbally calling for death of police and "street justice" and all sorts of other things.
I bet no liberal on here can find a single video of an official pro life member group calling for the death of anyone.
BLM is just a hidious organization.
So are most pro-life groups, but to be fair they are a lot less violent than BLM. I never feel my community endangered by pro-life demonstrators, even if I hate their message. BLM on the other hand you have to fear for you life around them.
Down the street is a Saudi charitable front for al-Qaida once run by bin Laden’s nephew. The U.S. branch of the dangerous Muslim Brotherhood is in the same office park. Farther down in Alexandria is the Saudi madrassa that’s graduated several terrorists, including the al-Qaida operative who plotted to assassinate President Bush.
Agents on the ground working the inordinate number of terror cases in the area say it’s no less than the base of operations for the bad guys in America"
-Washington Post
"In Jersey City, within hours of two jetliners’ plowing into the World Trade Center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river."
-Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/09/18/northern-new-jersey-draws-probers-eyes/40f82ea4-e015-4d6e-a87e-93aa433fafdc/?postshare=7281448290025183&tid=ss_fb
CNN Muslims celebrating after 911 and other attacks
https://youtu.be/W5BtQgTGOI4
Quote: RonCI find this statement funny in a way. So all Christians and Republicans are somehow promoting violence like what happened in Colorado by opposing abortion and some of them for calling abortion providers "murderers"
Lots of problems with this post. I never mentioned Christians RE: Colorado terrorist attack, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to lump them in with the Republicans here.
Simply opposing abortion does not necessarily lead to violence like this. But yes, taking that next step and calling abortion providers "murderers," "baby killers," and saying that PP sells "baby parts" will eventually lead to incidents like Friday where a low information nutbug carries out a terrorist attack.
Quote:yet BLM can say whatever it wants about the police (which they should when the police shoot someone without justification)
Glad we agree that BLM should speak out when the police have one of their many unjustified shootings.
Quote:and we can have riots and other violence...but they did not promote any of it....
You really can't have it both ways...
I will never understand the right constantly getting so upset over riots and looting, and yet the criminal acts that led to said rioting and looting just don't seem to bother them at all....
Quote: RonCI find this statement funny in a way. So all Christians and Republicans are somehow promoting violence like what happened in Colorado by opposing abortion and some of them for calling abortion providers "murderers"?
Quote: ams288Lots of problems with this post. I never mentioned Christians RE: Colorado terrorist attack, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to lump them in with the Republicans here.
Simply opposing abortion does not necessarily lead to violence like this. But yes, taking that next step and calling abortion providers "murderers," "baby killers," and saying that PP sells "baby parts" will eventually lead to incidents like Friday where a low information nutbug carries out a terrorist attack.
The usual folks had those among them calling it "Christian Terrorism" even though the articles I have read have no mention of any religion in regards to the shooter. You called out Republicans, but it was similar to the way Christians were called out so I lumped it all together in one neat, nasty little ball as Liberals often do.
Calling abortion what it is--the killing of an unborn child (why else would there be the possibility of a murder charge for killing one in some jurisdictions if it was anything less...do we get to choose which ones are not murdered and which ones are???)--does not make anyone shoot anyone.
Heck, no motive has even been released for the shootings according to the articles I've read from both sides of the aisle....
Quote: ams288Glad we agree that BLM should speak out when the police have one of their many unjustified shootings.
It isn't the speaking out about police murders that is the issue with BLM. It is the fringes of the organization that want to take it further and talk about murdering officers.
Quote: ams288I will never understand the right constantly getting so upset over riots and looting, and yet the criminal acts that led to said rioting and looting just don't seem to bother them at all....
I am so glad you are the judge of the right. People on the right support the prosecution of police officers who are out of line and mistreat suspects in any way. They don't have to riot or loot to do it, they just want the justice system to work. BLM is still upset about Zimmerman getting off on the murder rap, but that is what happens in our justice system all the time--people of all colors walk when perhaps they shouldn't because their is a presumption of innocence and not an assumption of guilt.
I don't have time to riot or loot--I have a job and I'd either miss work if I took the time to act like an idiot or I would get fired (or sent, rightfully, to jail) if I did. Most of us in both parties support our positions and candidates and try to make sure the system works for everyone. That is one of the best things we can do--make sure it works for everyone.
Quote: RonCCalling abortion what it is--the killing of an unborn child (why else would there be the possibility of a murder charge for killing one in some jurisdictions if it was anything less...do we get to choose which ones are not murdered and which ones are???)--does not make anyone shoot anyone. .
This is just pure B.S.
A fetus is not a child. If something can't survive outside the mother, it's not a person.
Abortion isn't murder. Sure, there are plenty of people who believe it is. But they're obviously wrong. It remains legal. (As long as you can afford it and don't live in some ass-backwards state that makes it nearly impossible to get one.)
The hateful rhetoric from the right only encourages nutbags to shoot up PP offices.
Normally I roll my eyes when the rightie reaction to a terrorist attack like this is "more guns." But in this case, I think all PPs should be armed to the teeth. There is obviously a big threat against them due to all the misinformation and nonsense lies coming from the right. If some crazy pro-lifer comes in shooting, they should be able and ready to blast him to smithereens. And good riddance.
Quote: RonCThe guy who shot up the Planned Parenthood clinic is obviously a dirt bag nut case of the highest order. He mistreated animals (not convicted, but I'm doubting someone just made that up), let his dogs run lose AFTER being told not to, lived in decrepit cabin in the woods, moved to Colorado, and registered to vote as a woman.
The fact that his act of violence CAUSED terror doesn't make him what we call a "Terrorist"--he was not part of some vast (or even small) group dedicated to creating terror in the name of religion (assumed by many to be Christian, yet not confirmed in any way) as the Muslim terrorists want to do. There is a lot of "terror" out there--shootings, robberies, etc.--but those people are not generally labelled as "terrorists"...well, unless it fits some weird liberal agenda. They are just called criminals, gang members, nut cases, etc.
The sad part of this that liberals around here want to make some kind of odd false equivalence between a lone wolf nut case and Islamic terror groups. It isn't that we don't want to rid the world of BOTH, it is that drawing an equivalence that doesn't exist shows a certain sympathetic view towards those who want to kill all of us--liberals, conservatives, "R", "D", "I", gay, straight, black, white, etc.--and impose their chosen way of life on us.
Nice try.
Being a terrorist is not defined by having a group supporting you. It is, in the perspective of the terrorist, whether you're aligning yourself with a group's stated goals in making an attack. Many millions of Muslims are refuting all of ISIS's claims to practicing Islam or even following it with what they're doing, yet American politicians and factions insist on making the connection. Calling this man a Christian terrorist is turning the mirror on that deceptive bias. It is Christians leading the war against Planned Parenthood; this man sees himself as a soldier and a martyr to that cause. And many Christians agree with what he did; just check Twitter feeds about the shootings.
Can't have it both ways, gang.
Quote: beachbumbabsBeing a terrorist is not defined by having a group supporting you. It is, in the perspective of the terrorist, whether you're aligning yourself with a group's stated goals in making an attack. Many millions of Muslims are refuting all of ISIS's claims to practicing Islam or even following it with what they're doing, yet American politicians and factions insist on making the connection. Calling this man a Christian terrorist is turning the mirror on that deceptive bias. It is Christians leading the war against Planned Parenthood; this man sees himself as a soldier and a martyr to that cause. And many Christians agree with what he did; just check Twitter feeds about the shootings.
Can't have it both ways, gang.
So a lone-wolf nut case with no ties to either party or to a religion that has been shown is somehow a Christian Terrorist.
I guess if it somehow makes you feel better, that is fine. There is not a "war" on Parent Parenthood in the way their is a "war" on us by terrorist that are Muslim (but not all Muslims are terrorists). The "war" on Planned Parenthood, by all but the nut cases, is a war against the idea of abortion...not an actual attempt to kill the people who do it.
The "war" against us by the Muslim Terrorists is so much more...you know that, of course.
Quote: RonC
Calling abortion what it is--the killing of an unborn child (why else would there be the possibility of a murder charge for killing one in some jurisdictions if it was anything less...do we get to choose which ones are not murdered and which ones are???)--does not make anyone shoot anyone...
Quote: ams288This is just pure B.S.
A fetus is not a child. If something can't survive outside the mother, it's not a person.
Abortion isn't murder. Sure, there are plenty of people who believe it is. But they're obviously wrong. It remains legal. (As long as you can afford it and don't live in some ass-backwards state that makes it nearly impossible to get one.)
Abortion supporters truly seem to want it both ways. I don't see them fighting laws that allow prosecution of those who kill unborn children which is what they really should be doing if it really isn't a child. Perhaps you do not support these laws, but here is a list of states with laws protecting the unborn:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
States even want it both ways--mom can cause the end of life but a drunk driver can't...so the one the mom chooses to carry is a life but the one she chooses not to is not...
Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.
I'm sorry...it either IS a life or it isn't.
Quote: ams288The hateful rhetoric from the right only encourages nutbags to shoot up PP offices.
Normally I roll my eyes when the rightie reaction to a terrorist attack like this is "more guns." But in this case, I think all PPs should be armed to the teeth. There is obviously a big threat against them due to all the misinformation and nonsense lies coming from the right. If some crazy pro-lifer comes in shooting, they should be able and ready to blast him to smithereens. And good riddance.
If it will protect their lives from nut cases, please arm them. I am fine with that. Being against abortion does not give anyone the right to harm someone who provides abortions. It is a battle only the in the sense of differing ideas and not in the sense of wanting anyone to be killed for their views.
Quote: RonCSo a lone-wolf nut case with no ties to either party or to a religion that has been shown is somehow a Christian Terrorist.
I guess if it somehow makes you feel better, that is fine. There is not a "war" on Parent Parenthood in the way their is a "war" on us by terrorist that are Muslim (but not all Muslims are terrorists). The "war" on Planned Parenthood, by all but the nut cases, is a war against the idea of abortion...not an actual attempt to kill the people who do it.
The "war" against us by the Muslim Terrorists is so much more...you know that, of course.
There's that deniability I was talking about. Absolutely outrageous, violent statements by thousands of people over the last 3 months, including political and religious leaders (often both), and then when some nut job acts on it because his pastor or Faux News "tells" him to, "oh, that's not what we meant!" Yeah, right. It was all rhetorical (sarcasm). Again, I suggest you look at how much support this clown is getting on social media. And this is far from the first time; the incitement has been going on for 40 years, and it's definitely cumulative. Very much analogous to the teachings in madrassas and mosques; only the target is different, and they're willing to die along with their victims; our nutjobs aren't.
Quote: beachbumbabsThere's that deniability I was talking about. Absolutely outrageous, violent statements by thousands of people over the last 3 months, including political and religious leaders (often both), and then when some nut job acts on it because his pastor or Faux News "tells" him to, "oh, that's not what we meant!" Yeah, right. It was all rhetorical (sarcasm). Again, I suggest you look at how much support this clown is getting on social media. And this is far from the first time; the incitement has been going on for 40 years, and it's definitely cumulative. Very much analogous to the teachings in madrassas and mosques; only the target is different, and they're willing to die along with their victims; our nutjobs aren't.
So it is all Trump's fault?
Wow. That is quite a stretch. Opposing abortion and saying it is killing innocent children is the same Muslim terrorism.
Quote: beachbumbabs... they're willing to die along with their victims; our nutjobs aren't.
FIX IT!
Quote: ams288
I think all PPs should be armed to the teeth. There is obviously a big threat against them due to all the misinformation and nonsense lies coming from the right. If some crazy pro-lifer comes in shooting, they should be able and ready to blast him to smithereens. And good riddance.
Quote: beachbumbabsThere's that deniability I was talking about. Absolutely outrageous, violent statements by thousands of people over the last 3 months, including political and religious leaders (often both), and then when some nut job acts on it because his pastor or Faux News "tells" him to, "oh, that's not what we meant!" Yeah, right. It was all rhetorical (sarcasm). Again, I suggest you look at how much support this clown is getting on social media. And this is far from the first time; the incitement has been going on for 40 years, and it's definitely cumulative. Very much analogous to the teachings in madrassas and mosques; only the target is different, and they're willing to die along with their victims; our nutjobs aren't.
This guy lived in a cabin in the woods, he didn't have plumbing let along cable or Internet....
I doubt he could even name a single canidate. I also doubt he regularly followed any news....
What support is this guy getting?
It would be really interesting to see even just a couple of those"violent statements" that include shooting people to death.Quote: beachbumbabsAbsolutely outrageous, violent statements by thousands of people over the last 3 months, including political and religious leaders (often both), and then when some nut job acts on it because his pastor or Faux News "tells" him to, "oh, that's not what we meant!"
2016 US Presidential Election - Next President of the United States
Odds as of November 19 at Bovada
Hillary Clinton -125
Marco Rubio +400
Donald Trump +600
Bernie Sanders +1200
Ted Cruz +1400
Ben Carson +2000
Jeb Bush +2000
Chris Christie +3300
John Kasich +6600
Carly Fiorina +7500
are as such. Will I win or we all lose with Hillary?
Quote: Gandler"The area also includes two luxury apartment high-rises that erupted into cheers when the World Trade Center fell on 9/11. Law enforcement has dubbed them the “Taliban Towers.” Investigators routinely find posters and computer screen savers celebrating Osama bin Laden as a hero.
Down the street is a Saudi charitable front for al-Qaida once run by bin Laden’s nephew. The U.S. branch of the dangerous Muslim Brotherhood is in the same office park. Farther down in Alexandria is the Saudi madrassa that’s graduated several terrorists, including the al-Qaida operative who plotted to assassinate President Bush.
Agents on the ground working the inordinate number of terror cases in the area say it’s no less than the base of operations for the bad guys in America"
-Washington Post
"In Jersey City, within hours of two jetliners’ plowing into the World Trade Center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river."
-Washington Post
Maybe Trump was thinking about these guys? http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/mossad-agents-911.htm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/09/18/northern-new-jersey-draws-probers-eyes/40f82ea4-e015-4d6e-a87e-93aa433fafdc/?postshare=7281448290025183&tid=ss_fb
CNN Muslims celebrating after 911 and other attacks
https://youtu.be/W5BtQgTGOI4
Quote: petroglyphMaybe Trump was thinking about these guys? http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/mossad-agents-911.htm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/09/18/northern-new-jersey-draws-probers-eyes/40f82ea4-e015-4d6e-a87e-93aa433fafdc/?postshare=7281448290025183&tid=ss_fb
CNN Muslims celebrating after 911 and other attacks
https://youtu.be/W5BtQgTGOI4
I doubt it, he pretty clearly said Muslims.
Quote: RonCAbortion supporters truly seem to want it both ways. I don't see them fighting laws that allow prosecution of those who kill unborn children which is what they really should be doing if it really isn't a child. Perhaps you do not support these laws, but here is a list of states with laws protecting the unborn:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
States even want it both ways--mom can cause the end of life but a drunk driver can't...so the one the mom chooses to carry is a life but the one she chooses not to is not...
Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.
I'm sorry...it either IS a life or it isn't.
So me me try to get this straight.....
Your argument is that pro-choice people are hypocrites because they aren't fighting to let criminals get away with harming pregnant women?
Huh?
Quote: ams288So me me try to get this straight.....
Your argument is that pro-choice people are hypocrites because they aren't fighting to let criminals get away with harming pregnant women?
Huh?
Well if it's not a human, hitting a pregnant woman and killing the life inside her should not count as murder, right? (Because it currently does)....
Quote: GandlerWell if it's not a human, hitting a pregnant woman and killing the life inside her should not count as murder, right? (Because it currently does)....
In this hypothetical situation, is the hypothetical pregnant woman planning to carry it to term? If so, I can see how it would count as murder. The fetus would eventually become a baby. And the hypothetical criminal has taken that away from the hypothetical pregnant woman.
Quote: GandlerCNN Muslims celebrating after 911 and other attacks
https://youtu.be/W5BtQgTGOI4
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers" - True (Koran 47:4)
The two idiots in that video are now in prison for conspiring to commit terror.
The smaller one is serving 2 and a half years, and the bigger idiot with the loud mouth is serving 11.5.
The idiot not shown, who was supposed to commit the act, is serving 25 years.
But is that really fair?
The Federal government recognizes the murderous cult of Islam as a 'religion'.
And they enjoy all the tax advantages of that designation at the tax payer (our) expense.
For example, the valuable property on which that mosque is built could bring in more than $1 million in real estate and other taxes annually to NYC.
They pay nothing.
The moment these creatures tried to practice what their Federally recognized 'religion' instructs them to do, i.e. "Kill the non-believers" they were punished for it.
If the Koran instructed them instead to "Kill the politicians" there wouldn't be a single Muslim in this country.
Quote: ams288In this hypothetical situation, is the hypothetical pregnant woman planning to carry it to term? If so, I can see how it would count as murder. The fetus would eventually become a baby. And the hypothetical criminal has taken that away from the hypothetical pregnant woman.
It's not hypothetical at all. It's a law. On the books. And it's regularly used I'm cases where somebody attacks a pregnant woman and kills the baby or whatever you want to call it.
If I punch a pregnant woman I'm the abdomen and the baby dies I'm getting arrested for murder....
Even if she was on the way to the abortion clinic I would get charged with murder.
Quote: GandlerIt's not hypothetical at all. It's a law. On the books. And it's regularly used I'm cases where somebody attacks a pregnant woman and kills the baby or whatever you want to call it.
If I punch a pregnant woman I'm the abdomen and the baby dies I'm getting arrested for murder....
Even if she was on the way to the abortion clinic I would get charged with murder.
Then I'd suggest not punching pregnant women in the abdomen. Seems pretty common sense to me.
Quote: ams288So me me try to get this straight.....
Your argument is that pro-choice people are hypocrites because they aren't fighting to let criminals get away with harming pregnant women?
Huh?
Two women are pregnant. Both are a little less than three months along. One gets shot in the stomach and her baby dies. The criminal is charged with murder of the baby and aggravated assault of the mother. The other one has an abortion. He fetus is killed.
How can one be a baby and one be a fetus?
The laws are hypocritical--you can't assume a life to be a life only if the mother says so. If you support such laws that protect the baby in one instance and not the same fetus in another one, you are hypocritical.
If I think both are killing an unborn child and should be illegal, I am not hypocritical.
Quote: RonCThe laws are hypocritical--you can't assume a life to be a life only if the mother says so.
The issue is choice.
The woman who is choosing to get an abortion is choosing to not let the fetus become a baby, which she has every legal right to do.
The woman who gets shot in the stomach has had the choice of letting her fetus become a child taken away from her by a criminal. The criminal did not have the right to make that choice for the pregnant woman he shot, and he should be punished for it.
Quote: ams288Then I'd suggest not punching pregnant women in the abdomen. Seems pretty common sense to me.
How can I murder (violent killing of humans) something that is not a human? And how can she 10 minutes later get an abortion and it not be considered murder?
It makes no philosophical sense.
Quote: GandlerHow can I murder (violent killing of humans) something that is not a human? And how can she 10 minutes later get an abortion and it not be considered murder?
It makes no philosophical sense.
I think the more interesting philosophical question is this: in these hypotheticals, why are you so hellbent on wanting to punch pregnant ladies in the abdomen?
Talk about blaming the victim!Quote: ams288The woman who gets shot in the stomach has had the choice of letting her fetus become a child taken away from her by a criminal.
Quote: ams288I think the more interesting philosophical question is this: in these hypotheticals, why are you so hellbent on wanting to punch pregnant ladies in the abdomen?
I'm not, but you are dodging the question like most liberals do when this comes up.
But forget murder charges. Let's say I'm driving over the speed limit and something flys out of my truck bed and it hits her in the chest. She is fine bug ot knocked the baby and it loses life. Should I be charged with manslaughter?
There are literally endless legally relevant scenerio pro choices need to explain if they support these laws...
Why is it only considered human when its not her choice?
Quote: GandlerI'm not, but you are dodging the question like most liberals do when this comes up.
Because the question isn't relevant? It's just a dumb hypothetical that you can phrase a thousand ways to try to find hypocrisy in the opposing view point.
If someone attacks a pregnant woman, they should obviously be punished for it. Regardless of what happens to the fetus in the attack, the punishment should be severe. Thankfully I am not a lawmaker so it is not my job to decide what constitutes murder or mansalughter or whatever.
I get it. You want to believe that a woman who has an abortion is committing murder. It is your right to believe so, just as it is her right to get the abortion.
Quote: ams288Because the question isn't relevant? It's just a dumb hypothetical that you can phrase a thousand ways to try to find hypocrisy in the opposing view point.
If someone attacks a pregnant woman, they should obviously be punished for it. Regardless of what happens to the fetus in the attack, the punishment should be severe. Thankfully I am not a lawmaker so it is not my job to decide what constitutes murder or mansalughter or whatever.
I get it. You want to believe that a woman who has an abortion is committing murder. It is your right to believe so, just as it is her right to get the abortion.
Of course someone should be punished for attacking another person.
It is hypocritical to consider the same thing two different things depending on how it gets killed.
No pro-abortion person really wants to answer the question because there is not really an answer that fits their position. A life is a life.
Quote: ams288Because the question isn't relevant? It's just a dumb hypothetical that you can phrase a thousand ways to try to find hypocrisy in the opposing view point.
If someone attacks a pregnant woman, they should obviously be punished for it. Regardless of what happens to the fetus in the attack, the punishment should be severe. Thankfully I am not a lawmaker so it is not my job to decide what constitutes murder or mansalughter or whatever.
I get it. You want to believe that a woman who has an abortion is committing murder. It is your right to believe so, just as it is her right to get the abortion.
It's very relevant, because in both scenerios the fetus ends up dead. The outcome is the same, but one is regarded as murder and one is celebrated or at least defended.
A dead fetus is the result of both scenerios, but the incidents are regarded very differently....
Quote: GandlerThe outcome is the same, but one is regarded as murder and one is celebrated or at least defended.
This is right wing nonsense.
No one celebrates the actual process of having an abortion. It is an awful decision to have to make, and one that I don't think is often taken lightly. I say "I don't think" because I am a guy and thankfully I will never have to be involved in this kind of decision.
It is typical of righties to say things like liberals "love" abortions. But that is B.S of course.
Planned Parenthood and its fans were obviously happy to take in all that money from the sale of baby parts up until recently, when they stopped that.Quote: ams288
It is typical of righties to say things like liberals "love" abortions. But that is B.S of course.
Quote: RonCOf course someone should be punished for attacking another person.
It is hypocritical to consider the same thing two different things depending on how it gets killed.
No pro-abortion person really wants to answer the question because there is not really an answer that fits their position. A life is a life.
It's your side mostly pushing for the hypocritical laws that do exist. See below. Nobody on the pro-choice side uses terms like preborn.
Quote:The debate over fetal rights is not new to the legislative arena. Every year pro-life and pro-choice advocates vie for the upper hand in this contentious issue. In recent years, states have expanded this debate to include the issue of fetuses killed by violent acts against pregnant women. In some states, legislation has increased the criminal penalties for crimes involving pregnant women. These laws have focused on the harm done to a pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of her pregnancy, but not on the rights of the fetus.
Other legislation has defined the fetus as a person under fetal homicide or "feticide" laws. Such legislation is hotly debated under names such as the Fetal Protection Act, the Preborn Victims of Violence Act and the Unborn Victim of Violence Act. Those supporting these acts, often pro-life advocates, say that both the lives of the pregnant woman and the fetus should be explicitly protected. They assert that fetal homicide laws justly criminalize these cases and provide an opportunity to protect unborn children and their mothers.
Those on the other side feel that laws to protect a fetus could become a "slippery slope" that could jeopardize a woman's right to choose an abortion. Pro-choice advocates say such laws grant a fetus legal status distinct from the pregnant woman - possibly creating an adversarial relationship between a woman and her baby. They are also concerned that the laws could be interpreted to apply to a woman's behavior during her pregnancy (such as smoking, drinking or using drugs). They prefer criminalizing an assault on a pregnant woman and recognizing her as the only victim.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
Legalize prostitution and save lives.
Quote: petroglyphIt strikes me as ironic that still, even here, it is a bunch of mostly older white males trying to decide what a woman should do with her body. lol
Legalize prostitution and save lives.
I've learned a lot from the righties in this thread today.
Mostly: our freedom to punch pregnant women in their abdomens is under attack!
Quote: ams288I think we all mean well? Just different ways of going about it.
Quote: petroglyphIf a woman who is planning to go all the way is caught smoking or eating high fructose corn syrup, should she be arrested for reckless endangerment ?
No.
Quote: petroglyphIt strikes me as ironic that still, even here, it is a bunch of mostly older white males trying to decide what a woman should do with her body. lol
Legalize prostitution and save lives.
Would a young black man have more or less moral authority than an old white man on OBGYN issues?
IMO, ethnicity is irrelevant as per career choice.Quote: GandlerWould a young black man have more or less moral authority than an old white man on OBGYN issues?
As to men ready at the keyboard to opine what a woman should be allowed to do with her own body, it is a business decision, as in, its none of yours.
It's not moral choice.
Quote: petroglyphIMO, ethnicity is irrelevant as per career choice.
As to men ready at the keyboard to opine what a woman should be allowed to do with her own body, it is a business decision, as in, its none of yours.
It's not moral choice.
Then why specify anyone here as old or white?
Ah, your just messing with me G.Quote: GandlerThen why specify anyone here as old or white?
Historically, and no one here is confused about that, is who always made the decisions, in country.
Every since the Euro's stole it from the occupants. Just because might makes right, doesn't make it fair or ok, or okee dokee.
Didn't you feel like that demographic oppressed you until recently?
Quote: petroglyphIt strikes me as ironic that still, even here, it is a bunch of mostly older white males trying to decide what a woman should do with her body. lol
Conservatives mens war on Women.
Totally agree.
