You Can Master ANYTHING!

I was just watching a segment on ABC's Nightline about a guy who is applying the "10,000 hours" rule to mastering the game of golf. There is a theory that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a master at something, something first studied by FSU professor Anders Ericsson, PhD. and referred to in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers".

If you could commit yourself to that many hours of something, knowing you would become a master of what you were practicing after all that, what would you personally dedicate yourself to? What would you love to be a master of that you aren't already?

Probably cooking. I can do basic staples (eggs, rice, beans) but anything more complicated and I'm lost, and eating out all the time gets expensive. I dunno if I'd be willing to go on "Hell's Kitchen" or "Master Chef" to do it, though...

Do you have any idea how long 10,000 hours is?

A typical full time job, at 40 hours per week, it's 5 years. Part time, and you're talking about a lifetime.

Of course, with many things, the phrase, "Takes a minute to learn, but a lifetime to master" definately applies.


That said, my answer is Poker.

I believe it takes 10,001 hours to master dice setting !

Quote: HotBlonde

I was just watching a segment on ABC's Nightline about a guy who is applying the "10,000 hours" rule to mastering the game of golf. There is a theory that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a master at something, something first studied by FSU professor Anders Ericsson, PhD. and referred to in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers".

If you could commit yourself to that many hours of something, knowing you would become a master of what you were practicing after all that, what would you personally dedicate yourself to? What would you love to be a master of that you aren't already?

Nothing. I'd get sick of everything. That's why I haven't done it. I'd rather be good at a lot of stuff, then a master of one thing...

You do know this is all bullshit, don't you?How many athletes have spent in excess of 10,00 hours chasing a dream and never making it to the big leagues ? How many pool players have invested that many hours and are still chumps? How many card players can not win even at the lowest limits / How many guys have spent all their lives trying to get rich ? How many guys have tried to follow in Warren Buffet's footsteps ?

I would even dare care this line of thinking " drivel" and not worry about being called out by the Wiz again.

Fin, sorry you missed qualifying. I was at the OTB on Saturday, had Alpha in the Jim Dandy. When 6f time was 1:14 and change
the guy next to me ( over 10,000 hours ) bet me Alpha would bet caught. LOL

I'm actually with Buzz on this one. There are some people that just don't have the ability to understand some subjects. I'd say for every five people I knew that was pursuing a MD from freshman year in college, only one still is. About one in three for engineering, physics and math. For the majority it wasn't laziness or work ethic, it was that their brain just wasn't wired that way.

Quote: buzzpaff

You do know this is all bullshit, don't you?How many athletes have spent in excess of 10,00 hours chasing a dream and never making it to the big leagues ? How many pool players have invested that many hours and are still chumps? How many card players can not win even at the lowest limits / How many guys have spent all their lives trying to get rich ? How many guys have tried to follow in Warren Buffet's footsteps ?

I would even dare care this line of thinking " drivel" and not worry about being called out by the Wiz again.

I'd be surprised if card players who read everything they can get their hands on, spend their time trying to learn from experienced players and spend hours at the tables (sober & serious) wouldn't be serious contenders for winning major tournaments after 10,000 hours of such endeavor.

I suspect you hit a point after a certain level where you should have developed the self awareness that you know what you lack to achieve a "mastery" of a skill, and whether it would be attainable. At that point you have a decision to make... is it worth the effort, knowing your level of mastery will not be enough to be a true Master. or is it something you are happy to dedicate yourself to anyways.

Without an awareness of your own skill level, you're practice and learning is probably not effective, and not real "learning". See : chumps.

I think the truth is somewhere between Buzz and HB.

Clearly even if I froze my age and spent the 10,000 hours trying to become a pro football player I'd not make it. Even though I'm still in my 20s, slow 6'0" 180lb (in ideal football shape theoretically) white guys just aren't going to be in high demand.

On the other hand 10,000 hours is a LONG time. What the original idea tries to capture is that nerdy kid who's mom makes her play the violin for hours every day from kindergarten on. I think rxwine is onto something with his poker claim, and I think the same thing is true for chess despite it coming easier to the very high IQ set.

To answer the original question, I think the golf idea isn't bad - it seems to have the desired mix of difficult-to-learn but possible-to-master going on. You could always chose information - I wonder how many hours the Wizard has spent on learning about gambling and math...

Quote: HotBlonde

If you could commit yourself to that many hours of something, knowing you would become a master of what you were practicing after all that, what would you personally dedicate yourself to? What would you love to be a master of that you aren't already?

I am torn between dice setting and roulette ball tracking.

White guys aren't in demand? Which position is that exactly? Football positions are less and less racially stereotyped as the years roll by. Much of that is because of what sports are played by which ethnicities, rather than a particular set of characteristics (to a lesser extent than many would claim, there's still seems to be some links to performance and racial background).

I think "mastery" here is not necessarily success at the top level, anyways.

Anyways, my pick would be writing. Quality, interesting, non-fiction writing, the sort that Bourdain, Palin (M), Twain and others have done.

This all depends on what "master" means, and what it implies (ie, practical work, theoretical study, both, research, etc).

Also any figures tend to be an average. Someone may need 12,000 hours of whatever to master X discipline, while someone else may master it in 8,000. You'll find when learning anything that some people simply ahve a talent or a "knack" for something. I took to cooking like a dolphin to water (almost). I mean, after a hesitant beginning, I was modifying recipes and even dreaming up my own in only a few weeks (though how I came to have a talent for cooking is beyond me).

Quote: buzzpaff

You do know this is all bullshit, don't you?How many athletes have spent in excess of 10,00 hours chasing a dream and never making it to the big leagues ? How many pool players have invested that many hours and are still chumps? How many card players can not win even at the lowest limits / How many guys have spent all their lives trying to get rich ? How many guys have tried to follow in Warren Buffet's footsteps ?

I would even dare care this line of thinking " drivel" and not worry about being called out by the Wiz again.

I agree with Buzz.

I would argue that it takes 10,000 hours to become truly proficient at something, but not master something.

Since this is a gambling website, let's take poker as our example. If you truly study the game, read books, focus on improving, etc for 5 years, full time, yes I think you could become a good poker player. For those people who have played poker for decades and still suck, I believe they have not worked to improve or have studied much during that time.,

You might become proficient at something in
10K hours, but to master it you need talent,
and how many have that. There were singers
that had better voices than Sinatra, but 1/10th
his talent on how to sing a song. Dick Haymes
had a voice better than Sinatra's, but all his
songs sounded the same.

You might become proficient at something in
10K hours, but to master it you need talent,


I second that EvenBob. This was actually talked about in the local poker room the other day, and the table came to the general consensus that after 10,000 hours, an individual may not be a master at something, but he/she will hace reached their personal best of what they're going to be able to do

This thread is a year old. I agree even more now
that 10,000 hours is needed to master almost
anything. And how many these days have the balls
to do that.

I was thinking about this again while watching the
Julia Child movie. She put at least 10,000 hours
into her famous French cooking book and look at
the result. It has never gone out of print in 52
years and took her 12 years to write.

Nothing is easy and nothing is given is pretty much the point. It's not a law of the universe, but perhaps just saying most things are within reach if you want it bad enough and have some kind of talent which can be built from.

There are a few things I've spent nearly 5 years if not more doing. I would say at some point I mastered them all, but the skill set for a few things has slipped do to lack of participation.

1. Being happy. It's teetering these days as my mom's cancer and other family members are getting in the way. It's not their fault, I'm just not as happy as I was 3 months ago. I can't correct a few things that are causing the bipolar activity. The most recent distraction was about an hour ago. I logged in to get my annual credit reports from the 3 agencies and only got one online. For some reason they asked me where my nephew lives and the only right answer was none of the above. They had the area where he once lived, but I'm not willing to lie. Lying leads to unhappiness and poor health. Look it up.

2. For about 6 years I used to send the local talk radio station a joke that I wrote. I would write one everyday. Then I was falsely arrested on a warrant for someone else and my sense of humor was damaged. I'm still angry, but I can't get the emotional level up. I was eventually paid. It took 5 years of court time and by then I was so used to complaining that I spent all my time writing complaints. Yeah. I can make just about anyone look bad on paper.

3. Card Counting. I practiced at home and with a friend back in the 80's and 90's for at least 3 years. It ended with a 12 day winning streak in Vegas. Life got busy and I didnt gamble until 2008. I was in a bad mood and took a 5k loss over 3-4 weeks. 2009 I got it back and had a 23 day winning streak. I've been shooting free throws a.k.a. practicing. I'm still at 99% counting into 8 decks.

4. Personal finance. I am a hawk. It's something everyone has 10,000 hours doing. I love my credit rating and score. It could be better, but the false arrest cost me my car and job and everything fell apart. I fixed as much as I could and only have one bad mark from 2004 and I'm in negotiations with Capital One trying to get it off the record. They are my credit card company, so they know how earnest I am with repaying my debt. I haven't missed a payment since 2007.

5. Growing pot. Not Bag Seed. The good stuff. I had to mail order seeds from Europe. Still have a collection of 17 different types in seed form, not in jars. Man I miss that more than you know. After the false arrest I was unemployed for 5 years by choice. My mom offered to buy me a car and I turned it down. To shorten this thing up. With no money and my love for pot, I learned to grow it indoors. My sister and I got into a fight after she got nailed for drunkard driving years later. She's an angry drunk. She was yelling at my mom and I cleaned out my room just in case the cops were called. By me. In the past 3 years, I have had very little weed. I can even pass a drug test. No plans to get back into it until after my mom passes and I get my house in Colorado. I was never in it to make bank for the obvious reason.

6. I am a decent planner. Having plans adds to my happiness level and requires a solid approach on budgeting and personal finance. Sacrifices must be made. At least in my low income situation. I'm sure others have tougher choices than I do.

7. Truthfulness. It's one of my biggest faults. I'm just not willing to live the big lie. Hard enough to remember the exact numbers as it is so there's no need to embellish an already wonderful life.

Quote: wroberson

4. Personal finance. I am a hawk. It's something everyone has 10,000 hours doing. I love my credit rating and score. It could be better, but the false arrest cost me my car and job and everything fell apart. I fixed as much as I could and only have one bad mark from 2004 and I'm in negotiations with Capital One trying to get it off the record. They are my credit card company, so they know how earnest I am with repaying my debt. I haven't missed a payment since 2007.

This one confuses me. Missing a payment should cause a bad mark. Also, 2004 is more than 7 years ago - why negotiate with the creditor? The bureaus are obligated to remove the notation from your record.

I haven't missed a payment in 5 years. And the write off was 2004. I ran my info through 5 credit score estimators and I was given a range of 660 to 740. 1 pegged me at 735. I could be 800+ if I can get that online poker mistake taken care of.

It's the best news I've heard and added to my happiness. I might be able to get along a few days without being crabby. Add to this that my sister's credit wasn't good enough to be my mom's cosigner, and I'm happier than I've been in 3 months. There's a Village loan due on the roof from 29 years ago that my mom is trying to get a loan so she can pay it. She has no credit because she has no cards and the house has been paid off for 25 years.

Also, this might be of interest to home owners. Many communities have a beautification program and off matching grants for home improvements. They also offer these low interest loans that don't come due until the house is sold of the home owner dies. You might be able to get some good equity. And as we all know, you can get some free solar and wind power that instantly adds to the value of a home.

Quote: wroberson

With no money and my love for pot, I learned to grow it indoors. .

Nothing in your post made sense till I got to the
part about pot. Then it all made sense. Pot does
that to people, makes their lives disjointed and
nonsensical. I smoked it for about 6 months when
I was in college and quit because I could see the
damage it was doing. I no longer had a drive and
ambition, I couldn't focus on priorities. Everything
seemed equally important, and thats never the
case.

Around that time I read an interview with Buddy
Hackett in Playboy. he said he got into smoking
reefer in the 40's when he was young and hung
out with musicians at the nightclubs where he
worked doing stand up comedy. For 5 years he
thought his career was going great until he got
busted and was forced to quit smoking and realized
he was going nowhere fast, he just thought he was.
He quit doing pot and became highly successful.

The only person I know from college who still does
weed is a woman who has never quit. She's been
married 5 times, has 4 kids all with different fathers,
and 40 years later is still trying to figure out what
her career should be. Last I heard it was yoga instructor.
Last year it was veterinary assistant. She has very bad
ADD as a result of the pot addiction and is a loopy mess.
She can't hold a husband or a boyfriend or even decide
what to do with herself because she smokes weed every
day. Very sad.

Its insidious stuff. But people who do it regularly think its
wonderful. As they used to say, thats why they call it dope.
It makes you dopey.

Agree, pot takes the fight out me and therefore useless in my case.

A full time job is 2000 hr / year. I know lots of people that have worked 5 years at a job and are far from masters, think the average government bureaucrat. Whoops that doesn't work because you actually have to work 2000 hrs / year.

Quote: kenarman

A full time job is 2000 hr / year. I know lots of people that have worked 5 years at a job and are far from masters, .

That's different. The author was talking about actively
working towards mastering something, not just putting
in your time.

Quote: EvenBob

That's different. The author was talking about actively
working towards mastering something, not just putting
in your time.

Indeed. I was working out last night how many hours I've spent at hardcore Quality Assurance and Software Testing. No 40 hours a week. If I could even get 20 hours a week of solid work on my core skill, I'd be happy. The rest is meetings, process, management and other tasks.

I reckon now I'm close to 10,000 hours though.

Shouldn't our president have improved by now? he has more than 10k hours in by now.

Quote: Johnzimbo

Shouldn't our president have improved by now? he has more than 10k hours in by now.

Yeah, playing golf. Being president he has about 50 hours
in. Maybe.

Quote: EvenBob

Pot does
that to people, makes their lives disjointed and
nonsensical...Its insidious stuff...As they used to say, thats why they call it dope.
It makes you dopey.

What a hoot!

Sure, when a person is under the influence they can be "dopey," but not when they're straight.

C'mon Bob, mellow out.

I've smoked weed regularly since I was a teen, and I am very successful, a white collar professional, reasonably intelligent, and nobody's fool.

These days I have Medical Marijuana, and the latest stuff, in concentrated form, is about ninety percent pure THC.

Sure beats cleaning the stems and seeds out of the Mexican crap I got when I was a lad.

"Reality is for people who can't handle drugs."

Quote: MrV

I've smoked weed regularly since I was a teen

Every day? Somehow I doubt that.

Quote: MrV

.

Sure beats cleaning the stems and seeds out of the Mexican crap I got when I was a lad.

You also didn't know what was on the plants, herbicide, pesticide...DDT or whatever

Sure, there are times I put the pipe down, as an exercise in self control, but most days I have a puff or two later in the evening when the work is done and I am relaxing.

Much better than alcohol (I quit drinking fifteen years ago).

Hard and fast claims like 10,000 hours to master something really annoy me. I've tried for decades to at least not be terrible at golf and still am. When I lived in Baltimore I saw a trainer weekly, and I still suck. Some people can play better than me their first time on the links than I can to this day. By strict rules of golf, my handicap would be about 100.

When it comes to mastering something you have to factor in natural ability. Where I'm good at math and computers I lack in anything involving a ball and in whatever it is that women are attracted to.

I think that everybody should try to excel at something. However, pick from among those things you were born gifted at. If I had devoted my entire life to basketball, or golf, over 100,000 hours, I promise you that I would still stink. I'm not complaining, because I know I've made my mark in other areas.

Quote: MrV

Sure, there are times I put the pipe down, as an exercise in self control, but most days I have a puff or two.

Its universal that all dope users think the stuff
they use has no effect on them whatsoever,
except in a positive way. Again, thats why they
call it dope. Really, it is. It explains a lot to me
about you. I always wondered what was up
with you on GG, now I know. Dope. LOL!

You really need to see this movie from start to
finish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jB7RBGVGk

Is that you? Or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRvAlqf9ME

Quote: Wizard

Hard and fast claims like 10,000 hours to master something really annoy me. I've tried for decades to at least not be terrible at golf and still am..

Of course it doesn't apply to golf. I played golf
for 20 years and just got worse at it. I watch
the pro's at the British Open putting the ball
in ponds, in trees, onto other fairways. And these
are the best in the world. How much hope is
there for me and you.

Quote: Wizard

Hard and fast claims like 10,000 hours to master something really annoy me. I've tried for decades to at least not be terrible at golf and still am. When I lived in Baltimore I saw a trainer weekly, and I still suck. Some people can play better than me their first time on the links than I can to this day. By strict rules of golf, my handicap would be about 100.

Is it possible someone could be worse than me, or are you exaggerating? My handicap in high school would probably push 60, but I played a lot in high school because I was the team statistician, which my reward was usually playing golf with the coaches. Not sure what I would shoot now. Remember a 100 handicap is nearly 10 strokes per hole for your average score. I have made a few 2's in my life and was about 6" from an ace. I don't think I have birdied a par 4/5 though.

Quote: Wizard

I think that everybody should try to excel at something. However, pick from among those things you were born gifted at. If I had devoted my entire life to basketball, or golf, over 100,000 hours, I promise you that I would still stink. I'm not complaining, because I know I've made my mark in other areas.

This is good advice. Also, DON'T choose video poker. :)

Mike I am worse at golf than you.

Quote: tringlomane

Is it possible someone could be worse than me, or are you exaggerating?

By strict rules of golf I meant counting every stroke, with no maximum, with penalties for swinging at the ball without hitting it, going out of bounds, hitting the ball in the water, and whatever else I do all the time. There will be some holes where it takes over 20 strokes for me to get the ball in the hole.

I must admit I am not horrible on every single hole. I tend to be a two-over or better golfer on most holes. It is just the holes from hell that make me a 100-handicap golfer.

Just don't complain about playing bogey golf in my presence. I could devote the rest of my life to the game and not achieve that.

Quote: Wizard

By strict rules of golf I meant counting every stroke, with no maximum, with penalties for swinging at the ball without hitting it, going out of bounds, hitting the ball in the water, and whatever else I do all the time. There will be some holes where it takes over 20 strokes for me to get the ball in the hole.

I must admit I am not horrible on every single hole. I tend to be a two-over or better golfer on most holes. It is just the holes from hell that make me a 100-handicap golfer.

Just don't complain about playing bogey golf in my presence. I could devote the rest of my life to the game and not achieve that.

Yeah, but if you are a 2-over golfer on 15 holes, then you have have to score about 25 each on the other three to be a 100-handicap (~170 strokes per round). So I hope you are exaggerating just slightly. I think we could have a nice 5 hour round of golf together someday....haha