Being a floor man is not that much fun...

They made me a floor man today at work. I did not enjoy it as much as dealing. 1/2 the breaks, less pay, a lot more responsibility. I wonder why anyone would chose to do it over dealing. I made a mistake with the ratings and stuff. Not a big one, but the casino manager asked me how a guy betting $10 a hand won $600 in 30 minutes.

Less pay? Wow

>They made me a floor man today at work. I did not enjoy it as much as dealing.
>I wonder why anyone would chose to do it over dealing.
Managers have to come up from the ranks. The worst thing is a Floor Person who can't deal.

>I made a mistake with the ratings and stuff. Not a big one, ...

That decimal point stuff can be important.

Is this a permanent change or just some rotational thing they want you to go through since you want management eventually.

Wait a sec...

Is that a permanent "promotion" ?

It seems to me like you were scrambling, looking for a job, just a couple weeks ago. Yeah, I know it's been longer, but you're moving up already?


For what it's worth, don't reject it so fast. You may find that, after doing it a while and getting into a groove, you may like it more. I.E. Once you have it down to a science, you may find the time to schmooze with some of the players. Plus, there's a lot to be said about walking from table to table to reduce fatigue.

Personally, I'd view it as confirmation that they are happy with your work and with you personally.

They are super short on supervisors so they are having dealers fill in, they want us to be dual rate which is fine. They changed the floor man pay from 30k a year to $14 an hour, but 60 hours a week so you make "more with overtime" but have to work 20 more hours a week. As a dealer I usually make $15-$18 an hour with tokes. I am only doing it to have a little more job security (but I won't if I mess up again!) The problem was tracking the black chips. The player kept putting his in his pocket and they were about to do the count for the day. They told me to put them with the players that are leaving so they will be accounted for (the way our system works) So players are getting credited with money they may not have won, but has to be done so the money balances out. I explained it to my boss and he said to make sure I rate the players so it looks reasonable. The tokes have been really bad, and may get worse (I hear tourism in Vegas is bad during the summer) so if I am floor for the night and can make the same or maybe a tiny bit more as a floor when the tokes it the ultimate low it is okay. Funny thing is the worst thing I am worried about is the fact I only have one suit. The other big problem is the music is so loud that when I have to telephone surveillance I cannot hear anything, less hear the phone if it was to ring. Back to my other posts, if I want a new car or a condo I am going to have to do what it takes to secure my job any bit more to take that financial responsibility.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wait a sec...

Is that a permanent "promotion" ?

It seems to me like you were scrambling, looking for a job, just a couple weeks ago. Yeah, I know it's been longer, but you're moving up already?

I wonder what the players would think if they knew they were playing in a casino that had a floor person who only had 5 months experience as a dealer. I remember when they promoted some other people the dealers were mad they promoted someone with a year of experience. In my case they understand. One supervisor watches 12 games sometimes, it is ridiculous.

Just as you should always have an additional dealers outfit in your car, you now will have to have an additional suit in your car.
Its the business you are in. Reliability. If they call you in early, you show up. Awake, sober and well-dressed. No excuses.

Something is wrong if you are considering an expensive car but don't even have a third pair of black shoes and a second suit.

As to that telephone and music volume... I'd speak to someone about it. It sort of seems a critical function and playing music to the sheep is not all that critical at all.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

They made me a floor man today at work. I did not enjoy it as much as dealing. 1/2 the breaks, less pay, a lot more responsibility. I wonder why anyone would chose to do it over dealing. I made a mistake with the ratings and stuff. Not a big one, but the casino manager asked me how a guy betting $10 a hand won $600 in 30 minutes.

Well, that is why Steve Wynn started putting the supervisors into the dealer toke pool. He claimed a dealer would take a near $20K pay cut to take the promotion so only the ones who were very serious about moving up the food chain would take the job. The rest refused the job, causing a shortage.

I can see where you didn't like it at first. Many are the people who either get the promotion and realize all the things that have to be done that they do not like. Or someone is forced into it and is just not and never wanted to "be a boss." Heck, I saw one guy step down a level then the person who replaced him quit and next thing he knew he was back in the gig he tried to get out of!

But back to your situation. I kind of see why you might not likt it. When I tried dealer school "pit boss" seemed a good goal. Watch a controlled number of people and the coolest sounding job title on the face of the earth. Then I watched what they do. Watch games. Watch for players trying to cheat the house. Watch for dealers trying to cheat the house. Manage breaks for 8-10 tables. Watch games. Listen to dealers complain about having to deal "Let-It-Ride" more often than they think they should. Watch games.

And until school I didn't realize how responsible they are for the bank in every game. Shift boss wants to know where the blacks are and you need to know. Maybe a player just left fast with no color-up (I do this sometimes) and you gotta know. And there is the always boring watching of games. Watching people work is about the most boring thing to do.

My advice is stick it out as dual-rate and learn the job. Nobody ever had career toruble because they knew too many different functions. If you ever try to move to a nicer house they may wonder why "you didn't make floorman when every other dealer there does" if you don't. And use what you see to make yourself a better dealer. Seeing mistakes 10 people make is going to give you a better background than just making some yourself.

I agree with AZ above. Even if it is a cut in pay it will be a good skill to mention on any job application.

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

A good suit for not a lot of money?

Try a tuxedo shop.

Seriously.

Tuxedo shops often have outfits that look more like a suit than a tux. And former rentals get sold at dirt-cheap prices.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

One supervisor watches 12 games sometimes, it is ridiculous.

Yes. It is ridiculous but for whatever reasons that is the way it is these days. And I'm sure houses are going to get taken big time by some dealer-player collusion that tired and over-worked Floormen miss. Glad handing some new players club card applicant at one table when you really want to be back watching a dealer who seems to flash his hole card every now and then is foolish but that is how things go now. No Floor Person can really watch 12 games. Crossroaders know this.

Whether you stay with it or not, at least minimal experience at it will be a help. You need more experience as a dealer too.

First so as not to derail the thread: Nick, would it help if some of us here played while you are on the floor and said nice things about you your supervisor? If so, I'm more than willing to help.

Quote:

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas?

Have you checked the outlet malls for a premium brand? Often their prices are ridiculously low. Then just find a nice tailor to do some alterations and you're set.

30k for all that stress? Obviously not my calling.

Quote: Wizard

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

You travel a lot so I'm surprised you never looked into having one personally tailored for cheap in any of the developing countries you've visited. I'm going to India/Thailand later this year for work then pleasure and definitely plan on bringing home at least two suits and six tailored shirts.

Quote: s2dbaker

30k for all that stress? Obviously not my calling.

At 14/hour with 20 hours of overtime weekly he's looking at closer to 50K/year. I wouldn't have made the move personally if they kept it as a salaried position, but as a nonexempt position it looks to work out well.

Quote: AZDuffman

My advice is stick it out as dual-rate and learn the job. Nobody ever had career toruble because they knew too many different functions. If you ever try to move to a nicer house they may wonder why "you didn't make floorman when every other dealer there does" if you don't. And use what you see to make yourself a better dealer. Seeing mistakes 10 people make is going to give you a better background than just making some yourself.

I totally agree. Sometimes you have to take one step backwards to take two steps forward.

Quote: Wizard

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

I've had good luck at the Nordstrom Rack, but the only store in Vegas is all the way across town for you. I also picked up a few recently at Macy's on clearance. Jos. A. Bank might work too. If you really want a good suit, try the regular Nordstrom men's clothing department.

And to bring it back on-topic, I think I'd make a distinction between "good suit" for a typical business job and "good suit" for a casino floor person. If you're in a smoky casino all day long and you wear a good wool suit, it will absorb the odors. You'll smell like smoke if you wear it elsewhere without getting it cleaned, but if you dryclean a suit too often you'll ruin it (or seriously shorten its lifespan). If I were working as a floor person, I'd have a few "work suits" that I only ever wore in the casino. I'd store those in a separate closet, away from my other suits and clothing. Of course this is all moot if you're a smoker and/or don't care if your clothes smell like cigarettes.

Well it was just for one day, I must say that I was a bit overwhelmed last night when I wrote the post. I will do the dual rate as needed, but I would prefer to deal. As for the other posts about me buying a car or what not and not having a suit, I have never had anywhere to wear a suit so I only have my one I use for job interviews. I also have a Tuxedo from when I got married, but I probably should not wear a tux. I was glad they gave me the opportunity to see what the floor people do, I am much more sympathetic to keeping track of my black and greens now.

If your tuxedo looks like a tuxedo, then definitely don't wear it. But some "tuxedos" look more like suits. When I was working as a wedding DJ, I got my suits from tuxedo shops (as someone else mentioned). This was easy to do, somewhat cheaper, quality was decent, and you just had to make sure it didn't look like a tuxedo.

As a side note, I would but a lot of cheaper shirts and ties in various colors. I would find out what the bride's colors were for her wedding, and try to get a shirt/tie combo that matched or complemented the official wedding colors. I got a lot of good extra tips for that.

Sounds like the casino you work for is in trouble.
You have 5 months experience dealing, and they
put you on the floor? Smells like desperation to
me. Keep dealing and keep looking for a position in
a casino where you have some job security. If
such a thing even exists in Vegas anymore.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I also have a Tuxedo from when I got married, but I probably should not wear a tux.

Not unless they bump you up to the high limit parlor.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I was glad they gave me the opportunity to see what the floor people do, I am much more sympathetic to keeping track of my black and greens now.

Maybe that was the point.

Quote: konceptum

When I was working as a wedding DJ, I got my suits from tuxedo shops (as someone else mentioned).

That was me, a fellow wedding DJ. :)

Quote: EvenBob

Sounds like the casino you work for is in trouble.
You have 5 months experience dealing, and they
put you on the floor? Smells like desperation to
me. Keep dealing and keep looking for a position in
a casino where you have some job security. If
such a thing even exists in Vegas anymore.

Its funny because it is true. But out of all the other new dealers they picked me so they must think I have 1/2 a brain. Some of the new party pit girls were driving me crazy, her cards were 6,4,Q and she stood there for about a minute trying to add it up.

Quote: Wizard

I agree with AZ above. Even if it is a cut in pay it will be a good skill to mention on any job application.

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

If you are looking for conservative styles try Jos. A Bank. It is a nationwide chain like Men's Warehouse but they have some better quality stuff. It's not top end but you can get decently tailored suits made from high quality fabrics. It is like a department store in that the prices are only good when they are having a big sale, but they are almost always having one. If there are no discounts posted come back the next week. My only knock on them is that the styles tend more towards stuff bankers would wear. I don't wear suits to work so when I do wear one it is for an occasion where I want to stand out a bit more.

Thanks for all the suit advice. There is a Jos. A Bank close to my house. I'm worried it is still too economy for what I need it for, but will have a look.

Regarding the point about dealers making more than the supervisors, am I the only one besides Steve Wynn that thinks that it is not unfair that the supervisors get a share of the tip pool? They are providing a necessary service and interact directly with the public too. As is being discussed in the Dollie Wong thread, tipping in this country has become more like an expected service fee than a gratuity. The floor men are providing a service so too so I think are entitled to a piece of the pie.

If you baked a batch of cookies for the dealers at your favorite casino, would you be upset of the pit boss, whom you like too, ate one?

Quote: Wizard

The floor men are providing a service so too so I think are entitled to a piece of the pie.

It's all about finding the right size, isn't it? Too much, and the dealers revolt. Too little, and there's still a shortage of floor supervisors. And I get the feeling that the balance point is very, very small.

I have to agree with the Wizard. I do not think that it is wrong for the supervisors to get a percentage of the tip pool. After all, it is there job to insure that customer service is good and everyone has a great time/experience. Why not tip them as well?

Quote: Wizard

...am I the only one besides Steve Wynn that thinks that it is not unfair that the supervisors get a share of the tip pool?

Yes, in ALL customer service industries, management should make more than the staff. But should the tips be used to augment the manager's salary to achieve this result? Or should the manager's base pay be sufficient to exceed the staff's salary with tips?

If you get your hair cut by the owner of the barbershop, do you still tip?

Food for thought.

Speaking of food, your cookie scenario is a different story. Cookies don't pay the rent.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for all the suit advice. There is a Jos. A Bank close to my house. I'm worried it is still too economy for what I need it for, but will have a look.

Regarding the point about dealers making more than the supervisors, am I the only one besides Steve Wynn that thinks that it is not unfair that the supervisors get a share of the tip pool? They are providing a necessary service and interact directly with the public too. As is being discussed in the Dollie Wong thread, tipping in this country has become more like an expected service fee than a gratuity. The floor men are providing a service so too so I think are entitled to a piece of the pie.

If you baked a batch of cookies for the dealers at your favorite casino, would you be upset of the pit boss, whom you like too, ate one?

Regarding the suit, if you need to fit in with the rich and powerful try Nordstrom or a custom tailor. Jos. A Bank goes up to mid-level and I have received many compliments on a suit I bought there, although the style is boring and conservative.

On the tip sharing issue, it is common in other industries for tips to be shared among workers, but not so much supervisors. Waitresses often tip out to bartenders, busboys, etc. but if the manager is demanding a cut that is looked upon poorly. Steve Wynn's argument is that he needed to do it so that dealers would want to be promoted without taking a pay cut. I think that is just because he is too cheap to give the floor staff appropriate salary for their level of responsiblity.

OTOH tipping of floor staff may introduce a conflict of interest in favor of the player. As players looking for any edge we can get we should be in favor.

The theory is that as supervisors they should have no temptation to side with those who tip the service employees when resolving disputes or calculating average bets.

I think Wynn's 'problem' was his dealers were making high-end of 70-90k salaries, and he didn't want to pay the supervisors 90-110k... which isn't a case of being "cheap".

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for all the suit advice. There is a Jos. A Bank close to my house. I'm worried it is still too economy for what I need it for, but will have a look.

Regarding the point about dealers making more than the supervisors, am I the only one besides Steve Wynn that thinks that it is not unfair that the supervisors get a share of the tip pool? They are providing a necessary service and interact directly with the public too. As is being discussed in the Dollie Wong thread, tipping in this country has become more like an expected service fee than a gratuity. The floor men are providing a service so too so I think are entitled to a piece of the pie.

If you baked a batch of cookies for the dealers at your favorite casino, would you be upset of the pit boss, whom you like too, ate one?

On Jos A Bank if you go, wait for their sales, my guess is next one should be Memorial Day Weekend. They do some huge deals, or at least it seems. Also, consider Nordstroms. They should have some nice stuff, and they try to hire people who know what they are doing.

On the supervisors in the tip pool, sorry, I disagree. They are not providing the service, they are part of management, albiet at the lowest level. The casino should compensate them correctly, but many times lower managament makes less than who they supervise (eg: often the star salesman makes more than the sales manager.) To have management taking some of the tip pool is like forcing the dealers to pay "tribute" to the bosses.

Sharing tips with management is wrong on every
level. The whole point of management is they're
a completely different entity than the hired help.
They make a higher hourly wage, have more
benefits and perks, and more job security. They
can't be partially dependent on dealers for their
wages, its confusing and demeaning.

Dealers work harder, put up with abuse thats
never heaped on a suit, and have almost no
job security. Tips are why they stay in such a
lousy business. Nobody expects a highly tipped
waitress in a fancy restaurant to share her tips
with her supervisor, how is a casino any different.

When I had the cab company, drivers always made
more money than the dispatcher or the phone
operator. There was never even the hint of a suggestion
of sharing tips, it would have caused a mutiny.
Drivers work their asses off, the office guys sit on
their asses and drink coffee. They knew they could
make more money driving, they chose not to. A suit
in a casino can always take the suit off, they shouldn't
rob the dealers just because they can.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I am much more sympathetic to keeping track of my black and greens now.

Nick, you work downtown, right? I still can't believe how hard they're sweating quarters these days. I remember playing not too long ago at an iconic downtown establishment for pathetic stakes and getting the same kind of attention I'd get betting orange/yellow at a south Strip property. Oh well, I still love downtown.

As for sharing tokes, it's a tricky subject. Ostensibly, the floorpeople have a much greater responsibility than the dealers, though dealers have to deal with more crap from the general public. However, I feel like the real debate is how much real work the floor does in relation to the dealers, and if that extra work entitles them to a cut of the dealer's bonus wages. It's kind of like retail: low-level employees put up with jerks all day while management makes a cozy living writing schedules and handling only the top-level disputes. But in this case, the cozy living is less than what the cashiers are making. Is it fair? Who knows? As a customer, I'd much rather see 100% of my tokes go to the dealing crew, but my relationship with floor personnel is admittedly a bit different than the average gambler. I suppose those guys deserve a break, too.

I don't accept the comparison to a restaurant supervisor or dispatcher. Casino floormen directly interact with the public. I'm sure Nick can comment, but much of their time is spent on ratings, answering player questions, flagging down cocktail waitresses, giving comps, and other things that directly benefit the player. In my opinion the service of the floorman is part of the casino experience. I would absolutely so "no" to higher unseen management getting a piece of the pie.

Furthermore, I don't think that working the floor is already a glamorous high-paying job. You're out there on the front line dealing with the public. Just because they wear a suit doesn't mean they are getting paid like other suit-wearing jobs.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for all the suit advice. There is a Jos. A Bank close to my house. I'm worried it is still too economy for what I need it for, but will have a look.

Regarding the point about dealers making more than the supervisors, am I the only one besides Steve Wynn that thinks that it is not unfair that the supervisors get a share of the tip pool? They are providing a necessary service and interact directly with the public too.

Mike - quietly I agree, but officially disadgree as a dealer, I know that the Floormen handle and resoved the toughest customer issues, otherwise they wouldn't be called.
The floorman's position is more political, more easily fire-able, more work to take home, sor the same or less money aside from a label. You go from a name-tag on a uniform to a name tag on a suit.

Quote: WizardofVegas

As is being discussed in the Dollie Wong thread, tipping in this country has become more like an expected service fee than a gratuity. The floor men are providing a service so too so I think are entitled to a piece of the pie.

If you baked a batch of cookies for the dealers at your favorite casino, would you be upset of the pit boss, whom you like too, ate one?

No, not at all - it's food for the team, and the team includes floormen. That's petty to exclude them.

I'm not sure about the gaming commission rules in Vegas, but in WA State people in manager/supervisor positions are not allowed to accept tips. This includes everyone in Security/Surveillance/Floor Supervisor/Shift Manager/GM. Poker floor supervisors are allowed to, though. It's a tough position to fill (Floor Supervisor) because while it is a busy job, it isn't so skilled that it really is worth more than $18-$19/hr. Especially in the casinos that allow the dealers to keep their own tips, you see the evening/night dealers making a lot more than that on average. Most dealers that ask for a promotion to floor supervisor quit to go back to dealing once they realize how much work and stress there is with little to sometimes less compensation.
Of course, if you ever would like to reach positions of Shift Manager or higher, you have to start climbing that ladder at that position. It depends if you want to live off tips (which the amount can vary often) or pursue a salaried position for the consistency.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

However, I feel like the real debate is how much real work the floor does in relation to the dealers, and if that extra work entitles them to a cut of the dealer's bonus wages. It's kind of like retail: low-level employees put up with jerks all day while management makes a cozy living writing schedules and handling only the top-level disputes.

I have a problem with this line of thought on "work" as if "work" can best be defined as "effort" or the technical definiton(ie: "moving mass.") Just because a dealer is standing more, bending more, and dealing with customers more does not mean they are "doing more work" or that the dealers job is more stressful than the floorman. Same as the cashier cannot be said to be more stressed than the retail manager.

I can speak from experience that a management job is one of dealing with problems 90% of your working day. Before the day even starts, employees bring their problems to you. Some are routine but need addressed, like a shift change. If you are short-staffed this alone can be major. Then there is the chance of call-offs. In the casino you have the extra-board, but that alone may not help. The poor retail manager must work the phones to get a replacement. And, by the way, in even a medium sized operation you have call-offs almost every day. Then there are other complaints, or just high-maintainence individuals under your direction. Their kids or S/O are always causing some kind of performance problem. You may care but eventually you mostly want to know why people can't just show up to work? Then there are the real stressful problems. Personality conflicts--you know you can't have Mary and Sally working the same craps crew because no matter what they just don't get along. And if you want to RIUIN a manager's day, have someone claim sexual harassment.

So after the employees you get the customer complaints. "Why am I losing?" "Is that all the comps I get?" "Your dealer was rude!" Sometimes the complaint is legit. Sometimes the complaint is embellished to get a comp. You have to resolve the complaint--and a comp may not be available or you have to stand your ground to avoid more complaints for comps. Often you will feel the customer is an idiot who expects miricles.

So, after all of this you get to deal with *your supervisor*. They may be in another city. "Why is the drop off so much?" (uh, because we had 6" of snow and the Steelers were playing on TV, boss!") They may or may not accept a legit reason for this--I once had a boss want to know why my route guy was not running. Well we had a foot of snow and were under "state of emergency" travel restrictions. Told him flat out I was not getting a guy stuck or killed-Years before someone WAS killed getting a contract signed even when the customer said, "snow is bad, come tomorrow" but the boss was pressing because HIS boss was pressing.-Didn't matter, we have a budget you know.

On another forum a guy told me Bill Gates should pay his employees more because, "they did the work, Gates didn't write a line of code" as if nothing matters above the lowest level. Thing is, it does.

Sorry if that drifted a bit off-topic.

Quote: brianparkes

I'm not sure about the gaming commission rules in Vegas, but in WA State people in manager/supervisor positions are not allowed to accept tips.

I don't know exactly either, but I think in Nevada supervisors are not allowed to accept tips per the casino rules. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. For one thing, I don't think there is a rule against accepting non-cash gifts. So, if you want to buy the favor of a supervisor you can ask him where he likes to shop and then give him a gift card to that store. I've also heard of just giving cash in a card (isn't it your birthday?) or a back of gum.

A few comments. The dealer is the direct line of communication to the end-users - the player. Their wage structure is minimum wage plus tips, with the thought that great customer service = increased pay. There is a direct line between tips and customer service. Yeah, much of this is variable. A huge bonus somewhere on the casino bet, be it a fire bet for the crew that pays off, a jackpot in Let it Ride, etc, can trigger a large tip.

When you get to the floor level, they are dealing more with dealers, security, running player's cards, etc. Their job is markedly different. It requires more skill but less customer service skills than the dealers. Therefore, the floorman probably should make a buck or two more an hour than the dealer salary, with tips. That is if the dealers historically average $16/hour, the floorman should make $17 - $18/hour.

... and so on up the line.

In plenty of restaurants, tips are shared with the busboys and other restaurant staff. I dont' see a problem with that methodology either except in a highly competitive place like Vegas, i think that differentiation will just bring you trouble.

Let's look at Steve Wynn's problem:

Floormen are drawn from the dealer pool. But when thus promoted, they make less money than they did dealing. Therefore few dealers take the promotions.

Is that a fair assesment?

If so, Wynn's problem has a simple solution: pay the floormen more.

Unfortunately implementing the solution ins't so simple. If you pay them more by raising their salary, or setting up a montly performance bonus, you need to use your money. This means raising your costs and lowering your profits (by whatever amount). This may also require a raise in prices, either by tightening the house edges on games, or raising room prices a few dolalrs, or in any of a myriad other ways. Raising prices is never a good idea, though it's sometimes necessary (you need to keep up with inflation, after all).

So there's the method Wynn found: share the tips the dealers get with the floormen.

I can see his point. Tips are additional money the casino doesn't charge for, and which players give voluntarily (we know plenty of players don't tip). So why raise costs or prices when there's this pool of money avialable.

Of course the dealers won't like it.

There are indeed arguments on both sides of the issue but I think the most significant one is that no matter reasoning is resorted to and no matter what the relationships are in normal situations, the worst invitation to disaster for a casino and for the industry itself is to undermine the sanctity of the bet. Yes, ... I said sanctity. Every transaction is without a receipt, every word uttered goes unrecorded, by law, only hand motions are recorded and then even those can be ambiguous particularly if the bettor is half-seas over. And such video is often available only on a time-delay basis and often means a limitation on the ability of surveillance to be looking elsewhere during playback.

Opening up the dispute resolution process to someone who is receiving tips is not wise. It may have certain attractiveness in other respects, but it debases the fundamental transaction that supports the entire industry. If the amount is over five hundred dollars and we call the Gaming Commission to send an Enforcement Officer should we set aside two-greens as a tip? What meaning is his badge and gun, if he is getting tips?

Sure including the Floor Person in the tip structure would help the casino owner and bring a sweetener to the Floor Person and be nice and cozy in many circumstances, but how long can an industry survive without a voice of reason making the decision instead of a greased-palm making the decision? Sometimes you have to say "yea" or "nay" and not worry about the customer relations aspects. A disgruntled customer may storm out in a huff but if you've made the right call that is then his childish reaction. You don't get referees making unpopular calls if the referees are being tipped.

And let us not forget the one salient fact that over rides everything. No one knows in advance which particular transaction is the critical one. Its just that at some point, you've reached a situation where the dispute resolution process is a meaningless charade of everyone raising their greased palm to determine the truth. That's not an indication of long term profitability. Short term profitability in a casino is never going to support long term profitability and stability in the industry if that short-term profitability is the result of an unethical act.

When the whole tip thing with Wynn started a few years ago,
I read that he'd been trying to find a way to get his hands
on dealer tips for years. He looks at dealers as being grossly
overpaid for being at the bottom of the casino food chain. He's
well known for firing dealers for almost any reason, saying he
has a stack of applications on his desk 'three feet high' of people
to take their places. Nice guy..

That is a common and nearly universal attitude toward what is officially classified as unskilled labor. Sure they are good in math and have manual dexterity and presentable dental work but after all is said and done, its often high income for people who are undereducated and geographically highly mobile.

Benny Binion understood he could not run his joint without the dealers being behind him 100 percent. When a security guard went into the dealer break room and caught two dealers with some drugs, Benny Binion's first question to the guard was what were you doing in the dealer's break room? (Benny Binion stayed out of the dealer's break room, by the way). The night a bindle of cocaine fell in the field and Benny cried out (Book it!!! At this time of night every single one of my dealers can pay off that bet!) Benny was not joking. He was well aware of his dealers drug and alcohol use. He didn't let it get out of hand though but he knew his dealers might get a bit excessive at times. Remember, one night he had a dice table lose so much money that the winner (a local car dealer) gave the entire crew new cars free. Dealers earning that kind of money were apt to celebrate it ... and work even harder because of it.

Quote: FleaStiff

That is a common and nearly universal attitude toward what is officially classified as unskilled labor. Sure they are good in math and have manual dexterity and presentable dental work but after all is said and done, its often high income for people who are undereducated.

Benny Binion understood he could not run his joint without the dealers being behind him 100 percent. When a security guard went into the dealer break room and caught two dealers with some drugs, Benny Binion's first question to the guard was what were doing in the dealer's break room?

had to read that twice. You mean he said "what were security guards doing in the dealer's break room?"

Now that's my kind of boss!

Quote: FleaStiff

Benny Binion understood he could not run his joint without the dealers being behind him 100 percent. When a security guard went into the dealer break room and caught two dealers with some drugs, Benny Binion's first question to the guard was what were doing in the dealer's break room?

Benny was a definate old-schooler. He was an old-school owner who actually spent most of his time on the floor, knew his dealers and players alike. He also had little fear of "luck" knowing the numbers are on his side. I have read he let the dealers audition to him personally, also worked his own pit.

I like Steve Wynn, but really, can you imagie him standing in a pit watching an audition?

Quote: FleaStiff

That is a common and nearly universal attitude toward what is officially classified as unskilled labor. Sure they are good in math and have manual dexterity and presentable dental work but after all is said and done, its often high income for people who are undereducated.

Wynn was never a dealer, he didn't work his way up.
He went to a private boys school and then to college,
and took over his father's string of bingo parlors. He
made enough to buy into the Frontier in Vegas and the
rest is history. It sounds like he looks at dealers like over
paid high school dropouts, which a lot of them were in the
60's when he got into the business. Here he is with an
Ivy League education, dealing with a bunch of uneducated
clowns who get paid too much and would steal from him
in a heartbeat if given the chance. I can understand
where he got his attitude from. There were no female
dealers in the 60's, and a lot of the men in the business
were barely above being street hustlers. First impressions
are hard to forget, and I'm sure Wynn never got over his
distrust and disgust at what he saw going on among
casino dealers.

Quote: Wizard

I agree with AZ above. Even if it is a cut in pay it will be a good skill to mention on any job application.

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

When I come to Vegas I travel light and buy my duds at Shoppers on W Sahara

Quote: EvenBob

Sharing tips with management is wrong on every
level. The whole point of management is they're
a completely different entity than the hired help.
They make a higher hourly wage, have more
benefits and perks, and more job security. They
can't be partially dependent on dealers for their
wages, its confusing and demeaning.

Dealers work harder, put up with abuse thats
never heaped on a suit, and have almost no
job security. Tips are why they stay in such a
lousy business. Nobody expects a highly tipped
waitress in a fancy restaurant to share her tips
with her supervisor, how is a casino any different.

When I had the cab company, drivers always made
more money than the dispatcher or the phone
operator. There was never even the hint of a suggestion
of sharing tips, it would have caused a mutiny.
Drivers work their asses off, the office guys sit on
their asses and drink coffee. They knew they could
make more money driving, they chose not to. A suit
in a casino can always take the suit off, they shouldn't
rob the dealers just because they can.

Hey Bob Here in NC the Strippers PAY management to work in a club. I've heard of fancy NYC restaurants where to stay waiters were expected to "tip the Maitre'd $300 per week. That was in the 70's though...

One of the girls in my dealer school was a stripper. She said she paid the club $80 a night to work there and got to keep her tips. She also had to take a 10% loss on credit card tips.

Quote: Wizard

A bit off topic, but speaking of suits, can anyone recommend a place to get a good suit in Vegas? I went to the Men's Warehouse yesterday and while the prices were very low, I was not impressed with the quality. I'm looking for a good looking suit. Not necessarily silk, but something that is above your basic cheap suit (like the kind I've always had).

Indochino or A Tailored Suit? While not in Vegas the price/quality ratio is excellent.