Dealers Pushing Side Bets

So, I recently got back from a trip to Harrah's New Orleans, and I've got a question: are dealers just toeing the company line when they are pushing the carny game side bets, or do they actually believe the BS they are spewing?

It is an oddity to find one who doesn't question me about not making side bets. Checking once just to make sure I didn't just forget is one thing, but badgering me when I make it clear that I won't make the bet is quite another. This trip, I had a 3CP dealer tell me I didn't know how to play the game because I wasn't betting the Pairs Plus! And, I had a 4CP dealer stop the game and ask her pit boss if it was OK if I didn't bet the Aces Up!!!!

Quote: Joeman

...This trip, I had a 3CP dealer tell me I didn't know how to play the game because I wasn't betting the Pairs Plus! And, I had a 4CP dealer stop the game and ask her pit boss if it was OK if I didn't bet the Aces Up!!!!

It's a common dealer training problem for games for which most players bet the side bet on every round. For example, once in 3CP I had already looked at my cards and the dealer noticed that I hadn't played the Pairs Plus. She told me I had to make it, and I whined, "But I don't want to make the Pairs Plus," but I agreed to do so--I did have a pair of deuces.

Also, the side bets can be beneficial for the dealer. In Atlantic City, I see that for Spanish 21's side bet "Match the Dealer," upon getting a perfect match (12:1) many players give a red chip to the dealer. That's another reason for the dealers to urge the players to make the side bets.

Quote: ChesterDog

Also, the side bets can be beneficial for the dealer. In Atlantic City, I see that for Spanish 21's side bet "Match the Dealer," upon getting a perfect match (12:1) many players give a red chip to the dealer. That's another reason for the dealers to urge the players to make the side bets.

Yeah, you're right, CD. I didn't think about dealers personally benefiting. I agree that a player is much more likely to tip bigger on a big win than if they just win their even-money bet. I should have put that as one of the poll options.

Chester,

I agree with Joe. Dealers encourage the side bets in carnival table games because the dealer is likely to get a tip when the player hits a win. A friend recently told me playing 3CP in Reno he was REQUIRED to play the Pair Plus bet every hand. (Never heard of that before, and it's definitely NOT part of the standard rules.)

For myself, I don't bet the side bets, with one exception: If I get a good hand, then on the next hand I may place the bonus bet, telling the dealer, "If it wins, we split the proceeds. So, you know what you need to do: trips (or quads, etc.)" Then, since it seldom hits, if the dealer tries to encourage my making the bet, I can say, "I couldn't get it to hit, even with you going 50-50 with me!"

Also, I never bet the $1 progressive bet. I say that I'll be the guy who will get the winning hand and doesn't collect the progressive payout. For the next 20 years folks at the table will be telling friends, "...and then he hit the jackpot! And, he wasn't even playing the progressive bet!!"

Does anyone know other places where players are REQUIRED to play the bonus bets? I think I heard some Oklahoma casinos may require it.

Lucky

Agreed with all the mentions of dealers doing it because side bets are larger variance which equals larger wins which equals more tips.

However, I've definitely come across a few dealers that were ADIMENT that the side bets are "where the money's at" and that you're just losing money NOT to play them. I have to bite my tongue and not explain to them how it often has a 5-10 TIMES worse edge than the game and to play it is most realistically pissing money away.

I've had dealers berate me hand after hand, and at that point I simply point out "Yeah, look how good it's doing for the rest of the table" when they whipe the table clean of all the side bets. Then when they hit ONE they're like "LOOK IT PAYS" and I just point to everyone else that's been losing on it "did it just pay you, or you, or you? hey how much are you down on that bet? and you?" and at least they get the hint and shut up... But yeah, definitely had a few dealers step over what I would consider the line to berate me about not playing the side bets.

Quote: Romes

Agreed with all the mentions of dealers doing it because side bets are larger variance which equals larger wins which equals more tips.

However, I've definitely come across a few dealers that were ADIMENT that the side bets are "where the money's at" and that you're just losing money NOT to play them. I have to bite my tongue and not explain to them how it often has a 5-10 TIMES worse edge than the game and to play it is most realistically pissing money away.

I've had dealers berate me hand after hand, and at that point I simply point out "Yeah, look how good it's doing for the rest of the table" when they whipe the table clean of all the side bets. Then when they hit ONE they're like "LOOK IT PAYS" and I just point to everyone else that's been losing on it "did it just pay you, or you, or you? hey how much are you down on that bet? and you?" and at least they get the hint and shut up... But yeah, definitely had a few dealers step over what I would consider the line to berate me about not playing the side bets.

I get this a lot when I play 3CP and only bet on ante/play. I wouldn't say berate, but mostly just told I'm playing wrong. A dealer has even told me both bets are required, when they def were not at this casino.

I don't give a reason the first time they ask and I'm usually left alone about it after that. I just say it's the way I play, or "I'm up $x" and leave it at that.

If they tell me "you would have won $20 if you played pair+/6cb!!" I just mention that I would have lost $100 on the 5 hands I lost/folded before. I'm never bothered after that either.

I'm always polite about it, however much I hate being told how to play.

Quote: Romes

However, I've definitely come across a few dealers that were ADIMENT that the side bets are "where the money's at" and that you're just losing money NOT to play them. I have to bite my tongue and not explain to them how it often has a 5-10 TIMES worse edge than the game and to play it is most realistically pissing money away.

Exactly! This is what I encountered this weekend. I wanted to tell the dealer that I would have been better off playing 00 roulette than Pairs Plus with the 1-3-6 paytable. That's what made me wonder if they really believe what they are saying.

Funny enough, there are some casinos in WA that waive Pai Gow commission if you play $5 on the bonus. Under those rules, there are times when placing the high-percentage side bet actually LOWERS the house edge.

Next time a dealer tells you "That's where the money is", ask them why they aren't at the competing casino playing that same side bet making a killing instead of working.

I know at Caesars in Atlantic City they encourage the dealers to push the Side bets on Table Games. So much so that their BJ tables have TWO separate Side bets on them that vary from a combination of 21 +3 (3 card poker hand) , Lucky Ladies (Any 20 on first 2 cards) , Buster Blackjack(Any dealer bust pays odds) and Match the Dealer. The dealer will usually say, You have TWO chances to win extra, to which I retort with "More like two chances to lose extra!"

I wouldn't be shocked if they institute a Progressive Jackpot for the Blazing 7's and drain more time and money from the game.

I play Let it Ride at $25 each spot. I love when the dealer tells me I’m crazy for not playing the $1 progressive cause “what if u get the royal?”.. ok moron you have a $50,000 max payout per hand , if I leave my last two bets riding then that’s my $50k right there , and with four to a royal after the first dealer card is flipped you know I’m letting it ride. So the progressive Bet I’d be only getting my true payout on the smaller hands which raises the house edge even higher

Incidentally I’ve asked several pit managers about this and some have told me the progressive payout is separate and doesn’t count toward the table max payout. Others have said the opposite. No one seems to know.

I'd vote for the two options on top.

Many dealers are just completely retarded. I used to be a dealer and from time to time, other dealers would be saying how only stupid players don't play the side bets in 3cp, UTH, etc. I pretended not to know how those games worked (since I didn't deal them, lucky me) and why players should play them? They pretty much just said because that's where the money's at and that's how you win. There's actually probably a pretty good chance many dealers can't figure out they should be pushing the side bets because they'd (potentially) get tipped more on big hands. Logically, that makes sense, but many dealers have a bit of a disconnect and don't really put 2 and 2 together.

Quote: michael99000

I play Let it Ride at $25 each spot. I love when the dealer tells me I’m crazy for not playing the $1 progressive cause “what if u get the royal?”.. ok moron you have a $50,000 max payout per hand , if I leave my last two bets riding then that’s my $50k right there , and with four to a royal after the first dealer card is flipped you know I’m letting it ride. So the progressive Bet I’d be only getting my true payout on the smaller hands which raises the house edge even higher

Incidentally I’ve asked several pit managers about this and some have told me the progressive payout is separate and doesn’t count toward the table max payout. Others have said the opposite. No one seems to know.

I've never heard of a progressive counting towards an aggregate. That's 100% absurd if it is. Progressives are often in excess of the aggregate.

Progressives do not count as part of the aggregate payout in any casino I have ever worked in/visited. I am sure that there must be a small place, somewhere, that has this ridiculous rule though.

I play table games all the time. I never play any side bets.

When the dealer says that I should play the side bet, I respond with a question.

I ask the dealer "Do you think the casino put that side bet option on the table so that I can make more money or is it there so the casino can make more money?"

They usually are stunned by my question and don't know how to answer. The honest ones say that it's there for the casinos benefit.

When another player at the table suggests that I should play the side bet, I tell them that if it's such a good bet, I will you let you put your chip on my side bet option. I have never had another player take me up on the side bet offer.

Quote: FatGeezus

When another player at the table suggests that I should play the side bet, I tell them that if it's such a good bet, I will you let you put your chip on my side bet option. I have never had another player take me up on the side bet offer.

I've had plenty of players ask to bet on my side bets. And in actuality, if the casino allows it, I will too. You usually get tipped when the player wins on them.

A better question to ask them is this:

"If it's such a good bet, why aren't you betting TABLE MAX on it???"

It is a combination of management training them to push the side bet and dealers hoping for additional tips if they hit... and quite possibly management is brainwashing dealers with the philosophy that they are pushing the bets for the benefit of dealers getting more tips.. haha

I love when dealers that dont know me try to peddle the fire bet. They say ' dont forget your fire bet sir' and I reply 'no thanks'. Then they say ' are you sure? you can win 1000-1' . I reply 'no thanks'. Then some will continue and say 'come on, its only 5 bucks , you should really do it'. I stop them before they finish their sentence and say 'no thanks'... and I wait a second, and I then say... 'well, wait a minute, how does the fire bet work? Please explain it to me'. I act very interested. I ask all of the right questions. I then say 'no thanks'.

I think there are a number of reasons for it.

1) they want the tips that come from a "big" side bet win.
2) they don't like getting yelled at by players because "you didn't remind me to bet the side bet" (just like a craps dealer looking at someone and saying "you coming back on your hard way?")
3) the bosses encourage them to do so.
4) some are dumb, and don't understand the math.


As a side note - do table games get mystery shopped, like most retail stores?

Quote: Yelruh

3) the bosses encourage them to do so.

This is pretty much it. And "encourage" is used loosely. It's more like "You WILL push the side bets."

Quote: Deucekies

This is pretty much it. And "encourage" is used loosely. It's more like "You WILL push the side bets."

This is completely false. I've worked at 2 casinos and know Directors at about 6 others. None have ever told dealers to push side bets.

In general, the reason a dealers will ask is:

1. They need to know if you want smaller chips when buying in.
2. They do have a better chance of a better tip on a large win.
3. Many people don't know all the different side bets available and is part of their job to explain them.


ZCore13

When I dealt, I was never told anything like "You will push players to play the side bet(s)". It's more like, "If someone's been making side bets and suddenly they aren't betting it, remind them they don't have money on it or ask if they'd like to bet it, since they probably forgot....and we don't wanna get free-rolled, ie: 'I always bet that, I just forgot!' "

The closest to that is dealing craps, announcing all the center bets before a come-out roll and hard-ways after a point is established. I was never told to push these bets and try to get people to bet them. I was only ever told to announce the bets to remind players to get them in (since many players like to do C&E, horn, world, etc. on the come out rolls....and hardways after point is established). If there was a boxman and someone asked what one of the center bets was, the box would always describe the bet like, "the hard 6 is betting that you'll roll a 3-3 before a 7 or an easy six, like 1-5 or 2-4. dollar minimum, if you want to try it".



I don't think there's a problem with dealers asking players if they want to bet the side bet, or introducing it to players, since many players (for whatever reason) enjoy betting the side bets. It's just annoying as hell when they keep pushing it. But I'd say it's most likely they push these bets mostly because they actually do think they're a good bet or that's "how you win".


And if you really think about it, even though the HE is awful on side bets, they do have much more win potential than the main bet. In 3CP, betting $5 units, are either going to be -5, -10, +5, or +10. Sometimes you'll get a straight, straight flush, or three of a kind, and win an extra $5 or $20 or so. But given the low variance of the game, you're pretty much just getting ground down, slowly but surely. Whereas, if you're playing the side bet, you can win something like $150. Of course, side bets are still awful, but there is some merit to the thought process of, "That's how you win."

Came easy, bet it hard. Came hard, bet it hard.
Doesn't take long, brings in a few bucks.
Keeps the dealers in shoe leather.
Explaining the bet to a new player is fine. Its a constant tattoo of more adventuresome betting. After a few trips by the Tray Lizard the resistance to such bets decreases. If the new player is an attractive female, a little chit chat about those center bets is just fine and dandy.

Bigot? The Casino is bigoted about being there to make money.

Quote: Zcore13

This is completely false. I've worked at 2 casinos and know Directors at about 6 others. None have ever told dealers to push side bets.

I can only speak for where I work. We are told that not pushing the bonus is not an option.

I'm about 99.54% sure that when dealers push the side bets they are told to do so. 3-2 blackjack is simply not profitable for small bets. A side bet can make more revenue than the base game easily.

trust me, 95% of the dealers are clueless as to which is the better bet.

deleted

Quote: Wizard

I'm about 99.54% sure that when dealers push the side bets they are told to do so. 3-2 blackjack is simply not profitable for small bets. A side bet can make more revenue than the base game easily.

Quote: ontariodealer

trust me, 95% of the dealers are clueless as to which is the better bet.

Yeah, the amount of dealers that have sworn up and down at me that the Trips bet in UTH and the Pair Plus bet in 3cp is WHERE THE MONEY IS AT. The conviction and passion they always swear on me has me believing they truly believe they're great bets, probably because they go on auto-pilot but have to break out of that when they have a big payout from these bets numerous times per day. 6 players at the table, even a hand that takes 1/600 to hit will hit ever 100 hands so they think the bets are better than they really are because they're not considering the 6x number of hands they're seeing.

I once tried out Zap It Blackjack just because I'd never played it. Well, every single time the dealer had any kind of a bust card and I had a great zap hand, like hard 16, the dealer would role his eyes and this woman to my right would berate me profusely. I'm not a shy person, plus I was just playing the game for fun, so I leaned back a little and said "why the hell wouldn't I give myself a chance to make a good hand, because after all he still can bust even if I don't....?" she laughed and told me "Yeah, I deal this game at X casino down the road.. I must not know how it works, right?!?!?!" Dealers are the worst, as the mass majority of them have zero clue about the games they deal.

It's actually more shocking when a dealer actually does know which are good or bad bets,and or correct strategy.
Last month a dealer who seemed like she was totally ghetto,corrected a player on bj about the differences in strategy when you hit or stand on s17.
She said she likes to play so she decided to learn the strategy.
So the old axiom you can't judge a book by it's cover was definitely true.

Quote: Hunterhill

It's actually more shocking when a dealer actually does know which are good or bad bets,and or correct strategy.
Last month a dealer who seemed like she was totally ghetto,corrected a player on bj about the differences in strategy when you hit or stand on s17.
She said she likes to play so she decided to learn the strategy.
So the old axiom you can't judge a book by it's cover was definitely true.

"Marty" at MotorCity is the opposite. He plays a lot at MGM so should know better, but I believe he's from the John Patrick school of blackjack!

Quote: Wizard

I'm about 99.54% sure that when dealers push the side bets they are told to do so. 3-2 blackjack is simply not profitable for small bets. A side bet can make more revenue than the base game easily.

I've dealt table games at four different casinos and have never been asked to push side bets. The bets sell themselves. Most dealers don't have a clue, and they push the bets because the majority of customers do play them.

I will often play UTH without betting the Trips. When a dealer or player chastises me, I smile and say "oh, I don't play that." And the conversation ends there 99% of the time. To the posters in this thread who get defensive and point out how much everyone is losing on these bets - stop it! You're being a jerk. Be grateful for the side bets. Without them, there would be much fewer playable games for the rest of us.

The casino I play at requires the Pair Plus at 3CP. Which wasn't horrible when the flush paid 4-1. My gripe is, as a minimum better, my $5 ante bet, $5 play bet, and $5 pair plus bet has a result of a push when you win with only a high card. I'm not breaking even, I'm losing $5.