Having to tip dealers is ridiculous

What a pile of BS.

The bottom line is, do whatever you want. If tipping makes you feel good, tip. If it doesn't, then don't. It really is up to you. This is still a free country after all. If you do something that makes you no longer welcome in the casino, they will let you know. I've never heard of anyone getting kicked out for not tipping, so it really is up to you.

Of course. This little corner of our society is run on the honor system. The way honor systems work is that you're perfectly free to cheat them.

You are also free to go to a wedding or bar mitzvah, eat and drink your fill and not bring a gift. You're free to go to religious services and not kick in your share to pay the clergyman and keep the doors open, etc. There are many areas in life where you can cheat and freeload if you want to.

Saying, "hey, if people don't like it, they can just stop having weddings and bar mitzvahs" is a pretty flimsy justification. All you're really saying is that honor systems would collapse if everyone cheated them. Yes. Yes, they would. I think the twisted logic people use to justify it bothers me as much or more than the actual practices.

"I'm going to accept someone's work and not pay for it because I don't give a crap," is far less grating than "I have invented some abstract problem with this system so I'm stiffing people for MORAL reasons. I'd be perfectly happy if there was a bigger house edge and the dealers made $17/hr and Steve Wynn kept some for himself, even though there is a zero percent chance of that happening. But since I would prefer an imaginary system, the existing system shouldn't apply to me. By pure coincidence this results in me pocketing money that should go to someone else."

As to the amount, that's up to you too. If you are sharp and rely on this for income, you know you can't go crazy. I don't play BJ so I can't speak to that for sure. It seems all over the map. In poker, the accepted minimum is something like $1 for every raised pot that sees a flop that you win. Obviously, you can adjust according to your views on how the dealer performs.

This is a pretty flimsy analogy. Weddings and bar mitvahs are private events. Whether or not you bring a gift is between you and the person who invited you, and none of my business.

BTW, $1 per pot in poker is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion. There is no way that poker dealers deserve to make that much. The reason that it's the standard is that people are bad at math. I'm guessing that 95% of the people playing don't earn money at that rate when they are at work.

And, by the way, what you described is not at all "the honor system". The honor system exists when the rules are well specified, but not enforced in any way. Like, if someone at work fills the fridge with coke and puts a sign up saying that cokes cost 50c, and leave a jar in there to collect the money. You are expected to put 50c in when you take a coke. You know this because there is a sign that tells you that.

This is not the same as being a sheep and doing something just because everyone else is doing it. There is no rule saying that you are supposed to tip a dealer $1 when you win a pot. The fact that some people do it, and most people are too weak-willed to make decisions for themselves, does not make you honor-bound to follow along with the masses.

Quote: Deucekies

Agreed that $20/hr + wage is a great wage. And $3/hr from every player would get you there if two things were true: 1) Every table was full, and 2) Every player tipped.

If people want to have the standard of $5 per half hour, and can afford to do so given their level of play, there's nothing wrong with that. It makes up for those who choose not to tip.

Not really, fast food workers are going to make $15/hr soon. So now they can spit in my food for twice the hourly.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

This is a pretty flimsy analogy. Weddings and bar mitvahs are private events. Whether or not you bring a gift is between you and the person who invited you, and none of my business.

BTW, $1 per pot in poker is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion. There is no way that poker dealers deserve to make that much. The reason that it's the standard is that people are bad at math. I'm guessing that 95% of the people playing don't earn money at that rate when they are at work.

I average more
than that. Unless its and extremely small pot or I hate the dealer. I also tip some of the floor when I cash out. One girl would call me when they had a really good game.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

This is a pretty flimsy analogy. Weddings and bar mitvahs are private events. Whether or not you bring a gift is between you and the person who invited you, and none of my business.

BTW, $1 per pot in poker is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion. There is no way that poker dealers deserve to make that much. The reason that it's the standard is that people are bad at math. I'm guessing that 95% of the people playing don't earn money at that rate when they are at work.

Id say the reason that that's the standard is that its typically the smallest denomination chip. Its been a while since I've been to jokers wild but they used to spread a 2-4 SL (spread limit not fixed limit) game where they would rake by quarters. Not the 25c chips used at the craps table but actual quarters. And when someone won a pot they would usually tip their quarter change.

If dealers, waitresses and so forth can make a good living, I think that's great. It's one of the few positives that come out of gambling. I don't get the mentality that everyone (but me) should make as little as possible. But, as has already been demonstrated, most of them make like a lower middle class income, especially these days. If I see them cruising around in Lambos, maybe I'll build up some resentment.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

This is a pretty flimsy analogy. Weddings and bar mitvahs are private events. Whether or not you bring a gift is between you and the person who invited you, and none of my business.

It wasn't an analogy, it's an example of how you are perfectly free to screw people over and be a freeloader if you chose to. There are many chances to do this in life. The point was this : the fact that you have the option to do it doesn't change the nature of your behavior. Simply observing that you have the freedom to go around stiffing and screwing people doesn't somehow magically make it a neutral behavior. You're still stiffing and screwing people.

I'd say going to church regularly and stiffing the collection plate is pretty parallel though.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

And, by the way, what you described is not at all "the honor system". The honor system exists when the rules are well specified, but not enforced in any way. Like, if someone at work fills the fridge with coke and puts a sign up saying that cokes cost 50c, and leave a jar in there to collect the money. You are expected to put 50c in when you take a coke. You know this because there is a sign that tells you that.

This is not the same as being a sheep and doing something just because everyone else is doing it. There is no rule saying that you are supposed to tip a dealer $1 when you win a pot. The fact that some people do it, and most people are too weak-willed to make decisions for themselves, does not make you honor-bound to follow along with the masses.

The rules are perfectly well defined and understood. If someone works for tips, and you take their work, and the work is satisfactory, you owe them a tip. Not rocket science.

The fact that the proper amount is sometimes uncertain does nothing to change this. You can invent all kinds of twisted logic to allow yourself to cheat. but it's incredibly simple. They work for tips, you take their work, you owe a tip.

Common decency = being a week willed sheep. Lovely. Damn my limited intellect and lack of fortitude! I just can't realize this level of happiness and enlightenment.

Quote: FleaStiff

If its really too much for you to be sociable, why don't you do your gambling at home. You shouldn't really worry about his bratty kid's shoes. Just be happy and festive ... or don't come to the party. The guy lugging your suitcase out the door gets a tip and no one, absolutely no one should be able to tell whether you won big or lost big or broke even from the expression on your face or the sound of your voice.

Thanks. That really helps me better understand what's appropriate and customary as far as dealer tips.

Quote: Rigondeaux

The rules are perfectly well defined and understood. If someone works for tips, and you take their work, and the work is satisfactory, you owe them a tip. Not rocket science.

Dealers don't work for tips. Their employees are bound by federal and state minimum wage laws.

Quote: sabre

Dealers don't work for tips. Their employees are bound by federal and state minimum wage laws.

Is that true in each state? They have to be paid min wage? Not tips min wage?

I phrased that poorly. Does anyone know of any casino that pays dealers the tip min wage instead of the reg min wage?

I played Caribbean Stud the other day and my African-American friend was dealt a full house with the dealer qualifying also, netting him ~$750US. He didn't tip the dealer at all, so I asked him why. He says, "Don't you know? Black people don't tip!", lol. I jokingly told him, I think if "I" said that, I would be considered racist, lol.

If the dealer is cool I will definitely tip given that dealers have to put up with big egos/assholeness (Egalite/Johno) and that second hand smoke. Plus many have to wear that ridiculous uniform while dealing with the egos/assholeness and the second hand smoke. If the dealer is an ass then they get no tip.

Quote: sabre

Dealers don't work for tips. Their employees are bound by federal and state minimum wage laws.

Like I said, amazing twists. Casino dealers don't work for tips? They work for minimum wage + tips. As the federal minimum wage amounts to like 14k a year, obviously they rely more heavily on the tips. Not that the percentage really matters.

The federal minimum wage for an employee in a tipped position is $2.15 per hour (approx $4500 a year).

Quote: FinsRule

Is that true in each state? They have to be paid min wage? Not tips min wage?

The only state I know for sure about is NJ...and my info there may be out of date. But CET dealers make $5 per hour plus tips. So it's somewhere between the regular min wage ($8.55 in most states I believe), and the tip minimum wage which is only $2.15 or thereabouts.

Quote: Rigondeaux

The rules are perfectly well defined and understood. If someone works for tips, and you take their work, and the work is satisfactory, you owe them a tip. Not rocket science.

The fact that the proper amount is sometimes uncertain does nothing to change this. You can invent all kinds of twisted logic to allow yourself to cheat. but it's incredibly simple. They work for tips, you take their work, you owe a tip.

Common decency = being a week willed sheep. Lovely. Damn my limited intellect and lack of fortitude! I just can't realize this level of happiness and enlightenment.

Do you tip $1 per pot because you feel it's the right amount, or because it's what everyone else does? Why not $1` every 2 pots, or $2 every pot?

If you do it because it's the same as everyone else, then, yes, you're a sheep. No need to think! Just follow along with the masses!

If I was going to play poker and tip, I would try to figure out the right amount for myself, and ignore what everyone else does. So I might figure that a full table at a limit game sees 40 hands per hour. Perhaps 30 of those are large enough to get a tip and the remaining 10 are either blind-steals or unraised pots that get checked down (or perhaps raised, heads up, checked down or bet-fold post-flop). I figure that $20/hr ($40k/year for full-time hours) is a more than fair wage for a dealer in Nevada. If the dealer gets paid $7/hr before tips then I'd like to see about $13/hr, or, $13 for every 30 "tippable" pots. So I would tip $1 every two "tippable" pots or so.

Just because this is less than standard, that doesn't mean that I'm stiffing anyone. The last thing that I want to be is "standard", ie, incapable of doing the simple calculation that I just did.

Quote: terapined

Where is 5 Ez pgp? is it all the time or just when they are slow?
You are very good tipper.

Belterra in southern IN. Not sure if it's always $5 but it was on the Friday afternoon I was there. I don't normally tip this well but I really liked this dealer and was doing pretty well (not winning, just holding steady) for the first 20 hands or so.

I usually have bad luck playing for dealers - I played a few hands for dealers in Vegas and not one of them won, so when my wife and I won at the Excalibur and colored up to a black chip, we tipped the dealer a $5 chip at the end.

I do try to tip well, not just dealers but everyone.

And in the course of figuring out the right amount for yourself, you are nowhere near accurate. No live game is going to average anything close to 40 hands per hour (the dealer-less physical chip & card free electronic PokerTek tables they experimented with at Excalibur didn't even get that), 25 to 30 is realistic, and of these about 20 to 25 will typically be raked hands which will usually generate a toke, varying by stakes and structure and players. Yes, I have actually counted, and still do from time to time. So do some people managing poker rooms who I know well. During an eight hour shift the dealer will usually have to spend time working the floor as a "brush" and then also at dead spreads attempting to start or restart games, receiving no tokes; people who do that work say to me pretty consistently that they are lucky to get 6 hours in the box dealing when working an eight hour shift. Many are also likely to be stuck spending time on the "extra-board." I could go on, and if you became acquainted with people who actually do that work they certainly could do so for you, but there's enough to get a running start adjusting your arithmetic.

It seems to be some kind of cosmic iron rule of the poker universe (and perhaps in other areas I'm not so familiar with) that those who are most adamant that they know better than others are always those who are the least knowledgeable; same principle that dictates that those who huff and puff in a fit of purple outrage over rulings at the table are always wrong, and those throwing the worst tantrums are always the most spectacularly ignorant of all. And I've observed this unfortunate rule of poker physics apparently getting stronger year after year. Though I am generally familiar with the economic reality of the game and what people typically make who work in that business, it has no bearing at all on why I choose to do what I do. I do it for the very reasons you are inclined to despise. I usually toke $1 per raked pot pushed to me at the poker table, because I know that is the longtime well established common standard, and I have that understanding before I set foot in the poker room, amounting to what I choose to consider amounting to an informal implied contract between most players and those who run the game for us and among other things protect me from the sort of angle-shooting weasels who seek seek self-serving opportunities to make up their own rules during the play of a hand. If they are so indifferent to their work that they don't merit that dollar (of course there are some in every room) I choose to take it as an opportunity for a break at the rail during their down, for my own sake. You can be damn sure I am no "sheep." It is how I choose to live my life. With integrity, as I see it.

I don't particularly like the toke system of dealer compensation, at least at poker, for several reasons having nothing to do with the apparent player cost, which unsurprisingly don't even seem to occur to those who are always likely to become the most vocal in threads like these. And I won't choose to feed the usually childish cage fight by elucidating them here, because I doubt the capacity of some individuals who tend to gravitate most strongly towards these topics to grow up enough to do so sensibly. But in spite of my very mixed feelings about it, other alternatives also have significant drawbacks for everyone concerned, and this is the one that exists and will almost certainly continue to exist, as I knew very well before taking up the game. My opinion is that those who feel a great burning need to economize in this manner would be best served by finding something else to do, sooner rather than later. The phrase "get a job already" often comes to mind with some such characters that scuffle around.

Do what you sincerely think best, as best you understand it. Also please try to do it with some humility in the understanding that you are not the first one playing it, and you are not likely to actually be so spectacularly brilliant that there aren't plenty of others who know very well what they are doing and why at least as much or more than you do.

Quote: DrawingDead

And in the course of figuring out the right amount for yourself, you are nowhere near accurate. No live game is going to average anything close to 40 hands per hour (the dealer-less physical chip & card free electronic PokerTek tables they experimented with at Excalibur didn't even get that), 25 to 30 is realistic, and of these about 20 to 25 will typically be raked hands which will usually generate a toke, varying by stakes and structure and players. Yes, I have actually counted, and still do from time to time.

At no limit or limit? That seems about right for a no limit game since everyone feels the need to hem and haw and hollywood and pretend that they are playing at the WSOP main event on every decision.

But in limit I know I've hit 40 hands per hour. Maybe less at a full table, but at a full table 100% of the hands (or close to it) are going to generate tokes, so it balances out.

I find it interesting that you said that my estimate of 30 tipped hands / hr was nowhere near right and then you came up with a range of 20-25. I guess that 25 is nowhere near 30? You can replace the number "30" with "25" in my calculations and get exactly the same results -- in fact, it's closer (since I was aiming for about $13 / hr from tips, and 25 hands would be $12.50 if you tip $1 every 2 hands, while 30 would give you $15). Your numbers get to my conclusion with less of a rounding error than my numbers do.

I've given this some more thought. My tipping has actually declined significantly over the years. Here are my current tipping policies:

Housekeeping at hotels: Don't tip
Hand-pays at machines: Don't tip
Dealers at table games (not poker): Don't tip
Poker: Tip $1 on some pots; not all. I need to reconsider this policy. I don't understand why poker dealers should make more than blackjack dealers.
Bell desk: Will tip $5 total between leaving and picking up the bag. Will not tip if the guy hints strongly that I should tip (I don't like being hustled).
Guy carrying bags to my room: I always decline this service. I really prefer to do it myself. If I ever get too old and feeble to roll my own bag, or if I was injured or something, I would probably tip $5 per bag.
Cab drivers: Min $3; up to $5 for a long ride.
Taxi stand guy: Usually don't tip; $2 if he loads bags into the trunk of the cab. Also I will tip if I skipped a REALLY long line thanks to my players card :)
Limo driver: $10; $20 if I request and get an extra stop along the way
Bartenders and cocktail waitresses: $1 to $3 per drink; usually $2
Restaurants: 20% of pre-tax bill ($5 minimum) if it is a restaurant where they take your order and bring the food to the table. Nothing if I have to stand in line to place an order and pick up my own food. $5 at a buffet if they come by to refill drinks, remove empties, bring clean silverware, etc.
Baristas: Don't usually tip (will only tip if they bring my order to the table; not if I have to grab it myself)

Some people may call this cheap, others may call this generous. Most likely some of them are cheaper than average, and others are more generous than average.

Edit: food delivery (to my apartment): $3

For me
Housekeeping I tip 2 bucks a nite but stiff on final nite.
Never had a hand pay at a machine. Won 1k once at a machine, I simply printed out the ticket
Dealers at table games, I tip a few bucks only when cashing out
Poker, 1 buck a pot, 5 to 10 per cent on tournament winnings
Bell desk, 2 bucks leaving a bag, 2 bucks picking up my bag
I carry my own bag
I rarely cab it, I take the bus in Vegas.
Bartender waitress, buck a drink
Restaurant 15 per cent
Buffet 2 to 5 per person. Cheap buffet 2, expensive buffet 5

I never used to leave a tip at the end of checking out, and I never get housekeeping services in between. The rationale is that housekeeping is not going to make the room for you, instead of the next guy so who cares, but I still leave a few bucks when I leave. I am heavily biased as I used to work at a hotel though lol.

Quote: terapined

Cheap buffet 2, expensive buffet 5

Why more for a expensive buffet, do they do anything different? I though it was for the service.

Quote: AxelWolf

Why more for a expensive buffet, do they do anything different? I though it was for the service.

Its kind of a compromise. At a restaurant, I typically tip 15 percent.
At a buffet, Of course I tip less but somehow psychologically , I feel I should up the tip if say eating at the Ceasars Baccanal which I typically hit once every trip.
You're right, service is the same if I'm eating at the Freemont buffet, which I generally hit once every trip also.
Sometimes tipping and the amount you decide to tip isn't logical.

I tip 1 dollar a drink. I only drink cokes or energy drinks. I'm either at the 4 Queens video poker bar by the Freemont Experience or Back by the full pay Double Bonus video poker by Magnolias. Bartender has it easy, squirt coke in a glass , dollar tip. Waitress has it tough, walk the drink with a tray across the casino, still gets only a dollar tip. Logical, not really.

What amazes me is how many tables there are where a $1 tip is downright rare. The first time I was at a 1/2 table, I was shocked to see how many people were throwing handfuls of whites at the dealer.

You're not tipping for being given the pot; you're tipping on behalf of the pot as its new owner.

(Also, my earlier posts only really apply to poker, and big jackpots. When I made them, I'd never played a table game for any length of time, and having seen how few players there actually tip, and what kind of players those tend to be, and how much they tend to tip, it doesn't seem like quite such an obligation.)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Do you tip $1 per pot because you feel it's the right amount, or because it's what everyone else does? Why not $1` every 2 pots, or $2 every pot?

If you do it because it's the same as everyone else, then, yes, you're a sheep. No need to think! Just follow along with the masses!

Drawing dead pretty much covered this stuff, and as he said... there are certain issues of maturity... I don't want to get too far out of line. With all of the references to sheep who are too dumb to do third grade math, I'm finding it tempting to take shots, but I won't.

Customs and cultural norms sometimes evolve arbitrarily, sometimes they evolve for good reason. When they evolve arbitrarily, other mechanisms might evolve around them so that it all winds up being reasonable. For example, our tipping culture might have evolved and expanded because American workers are relatively poorly compensated. So I think it's pretty ambitious to think that I can walk up to a situation like this, assess it off the top of my head and determine what is REALLY right. DrawingDead broke it down as far as time spent brushing, starting games, doing nothing, etc.

Having said that, I think there's plenty of leeway in what you tip. If you honestly believe the amount you tip is fair, I think you're doing your end. As I said, they work for tips, you take their work, you give them a tip you honestly think is fair. Do that and you're not a cheat.

What I have a problem with is the self serving illogic of "I don't believe in this system of compensation, so I have the right, no a moral duty!, to cheat!" I'd add, those people who totally reinvent the wheel to tip far less across the board are not giving what they honestly think is fair. e.g. "I think tips are for outstanding service, so if my waiter is outstanding, I give 5%." No. That's just rewriting the rules to justify your cheating.

My habbits? I generally follow the habits I described which are something like the "pro norm." Recreational players often tip more. I can sometimes tell a dealer is disappointed to get a buck for a huge pot, but as long as they aren't directing a stink eye my way, that's cool. 1) They probably don't really understand the realities of my end, just as I don't totally understand theirs and 2)If I was them, I'd be rooting for the recs and hoping for $5 or $10 tips too.

I adjust things a bit. If I know the dealer is not getting as much work as they would like and they are a good dealer, I will be a little more generous. Sometimes I will tip a dealer who spends 15 minutes starting a game and doesn't get one hand in and does it all without complaint. Sometimes I tip a bit extra for keeping an unruly player in line. Sometimes I tip less for laziness or getting out of line. Sometimes I skip pots when the action is small. There's an informal, annual $5 prize for giving me the most insane suck out on a huge pot I played terribly. Most recently, I tried to bluff someone who had flopped the nut flush and made a runner runner FH.

One thing I like is to multiply my tips for free. e.g. a chip runner brings my chips at the same time as one our two guys who look like they are massive squares. This is a good time to tip the chip runner, which I don't do often, because those other two will probably follow my example.

Something I'm trying to work into the repertoire more is to transfer tips. It's pretty rare to get bad service in Vegas, at least in my opinion. However, if, say, a waiter seems very uninterested, which again, is rare, I'll take 5 bucks off their tip and give it to someone with a worse job who will appreciate it, like a bathroom attendant or janitor.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've given this some more thought. My tipping has actually declined significantly over the years. Here are my current tipping policies:

Housekeeping at hotels: Don't tip
Hand-pays at machines: Don't tip
Dealers at table games (not poker): Don't tip
Poker: Tip $1 on some pots; not all. I need to reconsider this policy. I don't understand why poker dealers should make more than blackjack dealers.
Bell desk: Will tip $5 total between leaving and picking up the bag. Will not tip if the guy hints strongly that I should tip (I don't like being hustled).
Guy carrying bags to my room: I always decline this service. I really prefer to do it myself. If I ever get too old and feeble to roll my own bag, or if I was injured or something, I would probably tip $5 per bag.
Cab drivers: Min $3; up to $5 for a long ride.
Taxi stand guy: Usually don't tip; $2 if he loads bags into the trunk of the cab. Also I will tip if I skipped a REALLY long line thanks to my players card :)
Limo driver: $10; $20 if I request and get an extra stop along the way
Bartenders and cocktail waitresses: $1 to $3 per drink; usually $2
Restaurants: 20% of pre-tax bill ($5 minimum) if it is a restaurant where they take your order and bring the food to the table. Nothing if I have to stand in line to place an order and pick up my own food. $5 at a buffet if they come by to refill drinks, remove empties, bring clean silverware, etc.
Baristas: Don't usually tip (will only tip if they bring my order to the table; not if I have to grab it myself)

Some people may call this cheap, others may call this generous. Most likely some of them are cheaper than average, and others are more generous than average.

Edit: food delivery (to my apartment): $3

Why did poker dealers and not blackjack dealers? Is it a supersitioin or other reasoning? Becasue poker dealer seems like an easier job than blackjack...

Also, why tip cab dirvers? They already make a ton of money if they own the cab and are often not that friendly or helpful.

I agree with you about hand pays, it never even occured to me to pay a hand pay attendant a tip.

I always carry my own bags so I am never in the scenerio of tipping bag people.

But my question goes back to tipping dealers? You tip restaurants and cap drivers, but now dealers who derive most of their salary from tips (and not all dealers, just certain dealers)? if you refused 100% of all tipping I would understand, but your tipping policy is a tad strange?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Your numbers get to my conclusion with less of a rounding error than my numbers do.

If you ignore the fact that they do not get eight hours in the box when working a full eight hour shift, then you can just about get there if you really want to come to that conclusion, and make believe that they actually get that 8 hrs of time in the box in an active game out of eight hours of work, and that toking a buck on every raked hand would get to what you want them to make by doing it half as often. I don't think any of that results in anything I'd consider a lavish compensation at all for that work either way, but regardless, as I said it doesn't drive my decision for how and when to toke, and I have no interest in appointing myself the arbiter of what they should or shouldn't make in the marketplace.

I also greatly dislike telling others what they should do (beyond simply letting them know a range of what is common if they are not acquainted with it and want to know) whether that arises from someone abusing their employer's trust by hustling tokes or behaving as if entitled, or comes from people at the table pressuring others for larger ones (often someone with personal relationships involved), or if it is berating someone to act in the opposite direction of fewer and smaller. Most people in poker rooms I see just want to do what is within the ballpark of common informally understood practice, they will continue to do so as will I, and there is nothing wrong with them for choosing that. They are most definitely not presumptively foolish or weak willed for making that choice about it in exactly that way; it is a perfectly appropriate way to handle it, just as I have and many more seriously involved than me as players have as well.

I've played a lot of LHE, and if other factors are about equal I usually prefer it over NL, in part for some of the reasons you mention, among others. I agree that on average it tends to move along at a faster pace than NLHE (we probably shouldn't even try to go there for something like Omaha H/L) even though a lot of people who play NL tend to assume the opposite. But if you're actually getting in 40/hr routinely (leaving aside the fact that's only during the portion of their shift the dealer actually is in the box making some tips) then you must have superbly quick dealers who are very firm to the point of constantly nagging and prodding and pushing (which I'm personally in favor of) moving it along, and I suspect probably a player base that is made up of a lot of regulars without much in the way of casual recreational tourists joining in the mix, and if there's any beverage service going on it must be pretty much coffee and water. If so, I envy you for the pace of the game, but probably not for the player pool and the likely pot size.

The PokerTek electronic poker table machines that had their six-month Gaming trial at Excalibur in Las Vegas several years ago did not have any physical cards or chips for anyone to handle, that was accomplished instantaneously by the software, and the pot was automatically awarded and the next hand immediately "dealt" with the speed of electrons moving through silicon. Among other interesting things, it kept a running count of both average pot size and hand count. It got into the high thirties when they had a group of well experienced players at the table, and that was consistently faster than the average I got when tracking it in any live game I've seen from the most skillful dealers I know of in Nevada, when playing LHE or SLHE.

Excellent debate herein--I tip everyone in a casino but, this incident really soured me

Quote: Gandler

Why did poker dealers and not blackjack dealers? Is it a supersitioin or other reasoning? Becasue poker dealer seems like an easier job than blackjack...

BJ dealers deal cards, and stands at hard 17. Not too difficult.

Poker dealers must keep the game running, prevent any disputes, keep track of the amount needed to figure out an all in, calculate rake, etc. They are more in charge of each table as opposed to the pit dealers.

Quote: aceofspades

Excellent debate herein--I tip everyone in a casino but, this incident really soured me

Did anything ever come of this? I'm still gobsmacked by that dealer doing that.

Quote: Gandler

Why did poker dealers and not blackjack dealers? Is it a supersitioin or other reasoning? Becasue poker dealer seems like an easier job than blackjack...

Also, why tip cab dirvers? They already make a ton of money if they own the cab and are often not that friendly or helpful.

I agree with you about hand pays, it never even occured to me to pay a hand pay attendant a tip.

I always carry my own bags so I am never in the scenerio of tipping bag people.

But my question goes back to tipping dealers? You tip restaurants and cap drivers, but now dealers who derive most of their salary from tips (and not all dealers, just certain dealers)? if you refused 100% of all tipping I would understand, but your tipping policy is a tad strange?

Maybe. I think that all of the people I mentioned make most of their money from tips (most cab drivers do not own their own cabs). The exception might be the hotel maids, who make decent money in certain cities (including Vegas)

But I do not tip to subsidize poorly-paid peoples' incomes; I tip for service. If I go to a nice restaurant, 20% of a dinner for two might come to $60 or $80, but I tip it, and the waiters and waitresses there might make 6 figures. (I also expect the service to be very good -- if it isn't I wont tip that well and I probably won't go back) I'm sure that at some point in my life I have given a very large tip to someone who made an order of magnitude more money than I did (I used to go to fancy restaurants when I was in college too -- just far less often, because I couldn't really afford it). It really has nothing to do with the base salary of the person providing the service; it has to do with the amount and quality of service received.

So, I guess the problem is that I don't consider dealing to be a service job.

Having said all that, there are some blackjack dealers who I like a lot and I do tip them, quite well (nothing nefarious going on -- they are just friendly and provide a level of service that makes me want to tip)

Quote: djatc

BJ dealers deal cards, and stands at hard 17. Not too difficult.

Poker dealers must keep the game running, prevent any disputes, keep track of the amount needed to figure out an all in, calculate rake, etc. They are more in charge of each table as opposed to the pit dealers.

But blackjack dealers have to add... and some of them can even do it!

Quote: aceofspades

Excellent debate herein--I tip everyone in a casino but, this incident really soured me

I think that kind of thing leaves a sour taste for anyone. I think nearly everyone that has been around casinos knows that what she did was just flat wrong. Including her, after almost certainly being told as much by her employer when they hired her and trusted her to be on the casino floor handling money with their customers. What are the chances she'd be willing to voluntarily tell her employer honestly about her great idea for a neat little trick? I think not very high, like about zero, because she knew good and well what she was up to. But I'm sure you already know all that.

Quote: Rigondeaux

What I have a problem with is the self serving illogic of "I don't believe in this system of compensation, so I have the right, no a moral duty!, to cheat!" I'd add, those people who totally reinvent the wheel to tip far less across the board are not giving what they honestly think is fair. e.g. "I think tips are for outstanding service, so if my waiter is outstanding, I give 5%." No. That's just rewriting the rules to justify your cheating.

Ok, so if I don't believe in this system of compensation, what should I do Rigondeaux?

I'm in the industry so I always tip as it is part of what I do. Tipping is mostly a personal preference and it should be treated that way.....

After yesterday I'm rethinking my policies.....

I was playing dice at a locals joint and was not doing well but it happens. After 4 point, 7-outs, the base dealer literally half a foot away from me yells...."hot dice, get your hot dice here".........

Won't play there ever again and I most certainly will think twice before tipping any dealer again........

Sad day for me

Quote: Deucekies

Quote: aceofspades

Excellent debate herein--I tip everyone in a casino but, this incident really soured me

Did anything ever come of this? I'm still gobsmacked by that dealer doing that.

Nothing that I ever heard of - perhaps it was kept in house with no admission that it happened to me lol

144 pages in and this thread has convinced me to change my ways.

I will no longer tip the hand pays at video poker machines. :)

I have actually been considering this for a while. They aren't doing me any favors, by hand paying.

Quote: kewlj

144 pages in and this thread has convinced me to change my ways.

I will no longer tip the hand pays at video poker machines. :)

I have actually been considering this for a while. They aren't doing me any favors, by hand paying.

This is a bad idea I explain before in detail. It it bad for you and the AP community. It can really cost you and others money. It will get back to management you are an AP much faster. I have to s of examples of this. I also used to work in the slot department when I was 21 for a short while. So I have first hand knowledge of how it all can go down.

You don't want the people working on the floor hating when AP show up. They will moan and groan about the APs to management quickly and hate any promotions APs may be interested in. Alerting mannagment APs are in the house and urging management to avoide APable promotions.

Worked as slot tech, security, count team, and world's ugliest barmaid after the girl went home. You better believe people will rat out a suspected AP non-tipper. And don't expect to get any questionable calls at table games either. Spread the wealth, it's just another tax. Sorta like the income tax you pay ( LOL ) on your winnings. !

Quote: FinsRule

Ok, so if I don't believe in this system of compensation, what should I do Rigondeaux?

You should be a sheep and follow along with what everyone else does, of course. Thinking for yourself is strictly prohibited.

Quote: kewlj

144 pages in and this thread has convinced me to change my ways.

I will no longer tip the hand pays at video poker machines. :)

I have actually been considering this for a while. They aren't doing me any favors, by hand paying.

If you just ask for a ticket, they don't even seem to expect a tip. If you get cash, they do.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If you just ask for a ticket, they don't even seem to expect a tip. If you get cash, they do.

Yeah, I just love it when they pay you and automatically break down the final $100 into 20's. The in itself rubs me the wrong way, right up there with tip-whoring dealers.

Quote: kewlj

Yeah, I just love it when they pay you and automatically break down the final $100 into 20's. The in itself rubs me the wrong way, right up there with tip-whoring dealers.

You are welcome to say, all 100s please. I have done it many times, I just have my tip ready.

Assuming you tip on royals only. Lets $10 that would be like 25 cents an hr. A bargain compared to what BJ dealers want/ expect.

Quote: AxelWolf

You are welcome to say, all 100s please. I have done it many times, I just have my tip ready.

Assuming you tip on royals only. Lets $10 that would be like 25 cents an hr. A bargain compared to what BJ dealers want/ expect.

Wouldn't $10 be considered kind of cheap? I guess it depends on what denom you are playing. But even a 50c RF is $2k.

In my experience, small tips get a worse reaction than no tips. It's one reason I decided to stop tipping. Personally I think that $10 is really generous there, but they seem to want a percentage of your win, which is absolutely ridiculous.

You read that other post where the guy said that the attendants were upset about "only" getting $170 on a jackpot win. "ONLY"??? That is crazy. Who cares if the person won a million bucks or whatever? $170 is a lot of money for 5 minutes of work at a zero-skill job. Somebody is giving you $170 of their money by choice, in an attempt to be nice, and they are complaining that it's not enough? Crap like that is why I don't tip them.

The last tip I gave was $100 on a $20k handpay. I didn't even get a thank-you. There is a reason it was the last one. Never again...

(Now, I do see your point as well. If I was playing some hand-pay promo where I was keeping them busy, then I would tip. But that is different)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Wouldn't $10 be considered kind of cheap? I guess it depends on what denom you are playing. But even a 50c RF is $2k.

In my experience, small tips get a worse reaction than no tips. It's one reason I decided to stop tipping. Personally I think that $10 is really generous there, but they seem to want a percentage of your win, which is absolutely ridiculous.

You read that other post where the guy said that the attendants were upset about "only" getting $170 on a jackpot win. "ONLY"??? That is crazy. Who cares if the person won a million bucks or whatever? $170 is a lot of money for 5 minutes of work at a zero-skill job. Somebody is giving you $170 of their money by choice, in an attempt to be nice, and they are complaining that it's not enough? Crap like that is why I don't tip them.

The last tip I gave was $100 on a $20k handpay. I didn't even get a thank-you. There is a reason it was the last one. Never again...

(Now, I do see your point as well. If I was playing some hand-pay promo where I was keeping them busy, then I would tip. But that is different)

I was thinking if someone wanted to be frugal. They will not be upset on a $10 for 2k, they might not think you are a great tipper however they will appreciate it.

If a guy plays quarters nowadays, 90% of the machines don't even lock up, so you save on .25 cent play.

FYI many people give $60 to $200 on 4k royals. So to them $100 is not a great tip but...

Normally who ever pays you gets the tips to keep for themselves. I think the person who payed you was a RARE bad apple, how can anyone be upset with $100 free no matter 4k? or 20k?

I Don't have an exact standard for tipping. I assess the situation and my over all value. I have tipped $200 on a 1k Royal and many $100 tips on 1k. That's usually in small places were the value is High and royals are really just a big bonus to hit. It's also a place I plan on playing for a while or have been playing for a while. Normally I would give $20 on a 1k royal, if it was a hand pay, but not $40 on 2k, probably $30. Then go play BJ and stiff the dealers :)

Quote: FinsRule

Ok, so if I don't believe in this system of compensation, what should I do Rigondeaux?

Well, it's up to you. I find it strange that people object so vehemently to paying service people directly, as opposed to paying their bosses the same money, then having it skimmed and passed on.

However, if you have some deeply held conviction that is violated by this system you can just not participate in the system. Or you can cheat it. Or you can bite the bullet and say, "this isn't the system I prefer, but it is the one that exists, so if I use it, I'll follow the rules/contracts." Those are the only choices I think. Same as any system with rules you dislike.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You should be a sheep and follow along with what everyone else does, of course. Thinking for yourself is strictly prohibited.

Right, instead of "being a sheep" and behaving mindlessly like I do, you should join a pseudo-intellectual cult for alienated 19 year olds. Then you'll know you're an independent thinker.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Right, instead of "being a sheep" and behaving mindlessly like I do, you should join a pseudo-intellectual cult for alienated 19 year olds. Then you'll know you're an independent thinker.

No, you should think for yourself and do whatever you want because this is a free country. The fact that everyone else does it does not make it the right thing do to.

Not following along with the masses is not "cheating". There are no unwritten rules. Next you will be telling us that advantage players are all cheats because the unwritten rule is that you must play at a disadvantage so that the casino can pay their bills. And, well, that's just crazy talk...