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AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 20th, 2014 at 3:43:36 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

And in the course of figuring out the right amount for yourself, you are nowhere near accurate. No live game is going to average anything close to 40 hands per hour (the dealer-less physical chip & card free electronic PokerTek tables they experimented with at Excalibur didn't even get that), 25 to 30 is realistic, and of these about 20 to 25 will typically be raked hands which will usually generate a toke, varying by stakes and structure and players. Yes, I have actually counted, and still do from time to time.



At no limit or limit? That seems about right for a no limit game since everyone feels the need to hem and haw and hollywood and pretend that they are playing at the WSOP main event on every decision.

But in limit I know I've hit 40 hands per hour. Maybe less at a full table, but at a full table 100% of the hands (or close to it) are going to generate tokes, so it balances out.

I find it interesting that you said that my estimate of 30 tipped hands / hr was nowhere near right and then you came up with a range of 20-25. I guess that 25 is nowhere near 30? You can replace the number "30" with "25" in my calculations and get exactly the same results -- in fact, it's closer (since I was aiming for about $13 / hr from tips, and 25 hands would be $12.50 if you tip $1 every 2 hands, while 30 would give you $15). Your numbers get to my conclusion with less of a rounding error than my numbers do.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 20th, 2014 at 4:38:37 PM permalink
I've given this some more thought. My tipping has actually declined significantly over the years. Here are my current tipping policies:

Housekeeping at hotels: Don't tip
Hand-pays at machines: Don't tip
Dealers at table games (not poker): Don't tip
Poker: Tip $1 on some pots; not all. I need to reconsider this policy. I don't understand why poker dealers should make more than blackjack dealers.
Bell desk: Will tip $5 total between leaving and picking up the bag. Will not tip if the guy hints strongly that I should tip (I don't like being hustled).
Guy carrying bags to my room: I always decline this service. I really prefer to do it myself. If I ever get too old and feeble to roll my own bag, or if I was injured or something, I would probably tip $5 per bag.
Cab drivers: Min $3; up to $5 for a long ride.
Taxi stand guy: Usually don't tip; $2 if he loads bags into the trunk of the cab. Also I will tip if I skipped a REALLY long line thanks to my players card :)
Limo driver: $10; $20 if I request and get an extra stop along the way
Bartenders and cocktail waitresses: $1 to $3 per drink; usually $2
Restaurants: 20% of pre-tax bill ($5 minimum) if it is a restaurant where they take your order and bring the food to the table. Nothing if I have to stand in line to place an order and pick up my own food. $5 at a buffet if they come by to refill drinks, remove empties, bring clean silverware, etc.
Baristas: Don't usually tip (will only tip if they bring my order to the table; not if I have to grab it myself)

Some people may call this cheap, others may call this generous. Most likely some of them are cheaper than average, and others are more generous than average.

Edit: food delivery (to my apartment): $3
terapined
terapined
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August 20th, 2014 at 5:37:09 PM permalink
For me
Housekeeping I tip 2 bucks a nite but stiff on final nite.
Never had a hand pay at a machine. Won 1k once at a machine, I simply printed out the ticket
Dealers at table games, I tip a few bucks only when cashing out
Poker, 1 buck a pot, 5 to 10 per cent on tournament winnings
Bell desk, 2 bucks leaving a bag, 2 bucks picking up my bag
I carry my own bag
I rarely cab it, I take the bus in Vegas.
Bartender waitress, buck a drink
Restaurant 15 per cent
Buffet 2 to 5 per person. Cheap buffet 2, expensive buffet 5
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
djatc
djatc
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August 20th, 2014 at 5:40:31 PM permalink
I never used to leave a tip at the end of checking out, and I never get housekeeping services in between. The rationale is that housekeeping is not going to make the room for you, instead of the next guy so who cares, but I still leave a few bucks when I leave. I am heavily biased as I used to work at a hotel though lol.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 20th, 2014 at 6:01:36 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Cheap buffet 2, expensive buffet 5

Why more for a expensive buffet, do they do anything different? I though it was for the service.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
terapined
terapined
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August 20th, 2014 at 7:16:04 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Why more for a expensive buffet, do they do anything different? I though it was for the service.



Its kind of a compromise. At a restaurant, I typically tip 15 percent.
At a buffet, Of course I tip less but somehow psychologically , I feel I should up the tip if say eating at the Ceasars Baccanal which I typically hit once every trip.
You're right, service is the same if I'm eating at the Freemont buffet, which I generally hit once every trip also.
Sometimes tipping and the amount you decide to tip isn't logical.

I tip 1 dollar a drink. I only drink cokes or energy drinks. I'm either at the 4 Queens video poker bar by the Freemont Experience or Back by the full pay Double Bonus video poker by Magnolias. Bartender has it easy, squirt coke in a glass , dollar tip. Waitress has it tough, walk the drink with a tray across the casino, still gets only a dollar tip. Logical, not really.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
24Bingo
24Bingo
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August 20th, 2014 at 7:25:45 PM permalink
What amazes me is how many tables there are where a $1 tip is downright rare. The first time I was at a 1/2 table, I was shocked to see how many people were throwing handfuls of whites at the dealer.

You're not tipping for being given the pot; you're tipping on behalf of the pot as its new owner.

(Also, my earlier posts only really apply to poker, and big jackpots. When I made them, I'd never played a table game for any length of time, and having seen how few players there actually tip, and what kind of players those tend to be, and how much they tend to tip, it doesn't seem like quite such an obligation.)
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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August 20th, 2014 at 8:28:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Do you tip $1 per pot because you feel it's the right amount, or because it's what everyone else does? Why not $1` every 2 pots, or $2 every pot?

If you do it because it's the same as everyone else, then, yes, you're a sheep. No need to think! Just follow along with the masses!



Drawing dead pretty much covered this stuff, and as he said... there are certain issues of maturity... I don't want to get too far out of line. With all of the references to sheep who are too dumb to do third grade math, I'm finding it tempting to take shots, but I won't.

Customs and cultural norms sometimes evolve arbitrarily, sometimes they evolve for good reason. When they evolve arbitrarily, other mechanisms might evolve around them so that it all winds up being reasonable. For example, our tipping culture might have evolved and expanded because American workers are relatively poorly compensated. So I think it's pretty ambitious to think that I can walk up to a situation like this, assess it off the top of my head and determine what is REALLY right. DrawingDead broke it down as far as time spent brushing, starting games, doing nothing, etc.

Having said that, I think there's plenty of leeway in what you tip. If you honestly believe the amount you tip is fair, I think you're doing your end. As I said, they work for tips, you take their work, you give them a tip you honestly think is fair. Do that and you're not a cheat.

What I have a problem with is the self serving illogic of "I don't believe in this system of compensation, so I have the right, no a moral duty!, to cheat!" I'd add, those people who totally reinvent the wheel to tip far less across the board are not giving what they honestly think is fair. e.g. "I think tips are for outstanding service, so if my waiter is outstanding, I give 5%." No. That's just rewriting the rules to justify your cheating.

My habbits? I generally follow the habits I described which are something like the "pro norm." Recreational players often tip more. I can sometimes tell a dealer is disappointed to get a buck for a huge pot, but as long as they aren't directing a stink eye my way, that's cool. 1) They probably don't really understand the realities of my end, just as I don't totally understand theirs and 2)If I was them, I'd be rooting for the recs and hoping for $5 or $10 tips too.

I adjust things a bit. If I know the dealer is not getting as much work as they would like and they are a good dealer, I will be a little more generous. Sometimes I will tip a dealer who spends 15 minutes starting a game and doesn't get one hand in and does it all without complaint. Sometimes I tip a bit extra for keeping an unruly player in line. Sometimes I tip less for laziness or getting out of line. Sometimes I skip pots when the action is small. There's an informal, annual $5 prize for giving me the most insane suck out on a huge pot I played terribly. Most recently, I tried to bluff someone who had flopped the nut flush and made a runner runner FH.

One thing I like is to multiply my tips for free. e.g. a chip runner brings my chips at the same time as one our two guys who look like they are massive squares. This is a good time to tip the chip runner, which I don't do often, because those other two will probably follow my example.

Something I'm trying to work into the repertoire more is to transfer tips. It's pretty rare to get bad service in Vegas, at least in my opinion. However, if, say, a waiter seems very uninterested, which again, is rare, I'll take 5 bucks off their tip and give it to someone with a worse job who will appreciate it, like a bathroom attendant or janitor.
Gandler
Gandler
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August 20th, 2014 at 9:33:56 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've given this some more thought. My tipping has actually declined significantly over the years. Here are my current tipping policies:

Housekeeping at hotels: Don't tip
Hand-pays at machines: Don't tip
Dealers at table games (not poker): Don't tip
Poker: Tip $1 on some pots; not all. I need to reconsider this policy. I don't understand why poker dealers should make more than blackjack dealers.
Bell desk: Will tip $5 total between leaving and picking up the bag. Will not tip if the guy hints strongly that I should tip (I don't like being hustled).
Guy carrying bags to my room: I always decline this service. I really prefer to do it myself. If I ever get too old and feeble to roll my own bag, or if I was injured or something, I would probably tip $5 per bag.
Cab drivers: Min $3; up to $5 for a long ride.
Taxi stand guy: Usually don't tip; $2 if he loads bags into the trunk of the cab. Also I will tip if I skipped a REALLY long line thanks to my players card :)
Limo driver: $10; $20 if I request and get an extra stop along the way
Bartenders and cocktail waitresses: $1 to $3 per drink; usually $2
Restaurants: 20% of pre-tax bill ($5 minimum) if it is a restaurant where they take your order and bring the food to the table. Nothing if I have to stand in line to place an order and pick up my own food. $5 at a buffet if they come by to refill drinks, remove empties, bring clean silverware, etc.
Baristas: Don't usually tip (will only tip if they bring my order to the table; not if I have to grab it myself)

Some people may call this cheap, others may call this generous. Most likely some of them are cheaper than average, and others are more generous than average.

Edit: food delivery (to my apartment): $3


Why did poker dealers and not blackjack dealers? Is it a supersitioin or other reasoning? Becasue poker dealer seems like an easier job than blackjack...

Also, why tip cab dirvers? They already make a ton of money if they own the cab and are often not that friendly or helpful.

I agree with you about hand pays, it never even occured to me to pay a hand pay attendant a tip.

I always carry my own bags so I am never in the scenerio of tipping bag people.

But my question goes back to tipping dealers? You tip restaurants and cap drivers, but now dealers who derive most of their salary from tips (and not all dealers, just certain dealers)? if you refused 100% of all tipping I would understand, but your tipping policy is a tad strange?
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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August 20th, 2014 at 9:53:44 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Your numbers get to my conclusion with less of a rounding error than my numbers do.

If you ignore the fact that they do not get eight hours in the box when working a full eight hour shift, then you can just about get there if you really want to come to that conclusion, and make believe that they actually get that 8 hrs of time in the box in an active game out of eight hours of work, and that toking a buck on every raked hand would get to what you want them to make by doing it half as often. I don't think any of that results in anything I'd consider a lavish compensation at all for that work either way, but regardless, as I said it doesn't drive my decision for how and when to toke, and I have no interest in appointing myself the arbiter of what they should or shouldn't make in the marketplace.

I also greatly dislike telling others what they should do (beyond simply letting them know a range of what is common if they are not acquainted with it and want to know) whether that arises from someone abusing their employer's trust by hustling tokes or behaving as if entitled, or comes from people at the table pressuring others for larger ones (often someone with personal relationships involved), or if it is berating someone to act in the opposite direction of fewer and smaller. Most people in poker rooms I see just want to do what is within the ballpark of common informally understood practice, they will continue to do so as will I, and there is nothing wrong with them for choosing that. They are most definitely not presumptively foolish or weak willed for making that choice about it in exactly that way; it is a perfectly appropriate way to handle it, just as I have and many more seriously involved than me as players have as well.

I've played a lot of LHE, and if other factors are about equal I usually prefer it over NL, in part for some of the reasons you mention, among others. I agree that on average it tends to move along at a faster pace than NLHE (we probably shouldn't even try to go there for something like Omaha H/L) even though a lot of people who play NL tend to assume the opposite. But if you're actually getting in 40/hr routinely (leaving aside the fact that's only during the portion of their shift the dealer actually is in the box making some tips) then you must have superbly quick dealers who are very firm to the point of constantly nagging and prodding and pushing (which I'm personally in favor of) moving it along, and I suspect probably a player base that is made up of a lot of regulars without much in the way of casual recreational tourists joining in the mix, and if there's any beverage service going on it must be pretty much coffee and water. If so, I envy you for the pace of the game, but probably not for the player pool and the likely pot size.

The PokerTek electronic poker table machines that had their six-month Gaming trial at Excalibur in Las Vegas several years ago did not have any physical cards or chips for anyone to handle, that was accomplished instantaneously by the software, and the pot was automatically awarded and the next hand immediately "dealt" with the speed of electrons moving through silicon. Among other interesting things, it kept a running count of both average pot size and hand count. It got into the high thirties when they had a group of well experienced players at the table, and that was consistently faster than the average I got when tracking it in any live game I've seen from the most skillful dealers I know of in Nevada, when playing LHE or SLHE.
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf

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