Having to tip dealers is ridiculous

Quote: Paigowdan

Ex-dealer. Different role in the business now.

Dealing is a rough job: you're expected to be a mathematician, a perfect automaton, an entertainer, a bringer of lucky things, and a thousand and one other things while putting up with stuff and people who are often galling. Anything that smacks of cheapness or scamming is not only noticeable, but represents the player as a human being. A lot of people fail the test of human decency/"home training" naturally, and especially so with booze in their system and money on the line. It would be a rough and thankless job at $200+ a day, no less minimum wager at NO tips from the vast majority of players who are often jerks to boot. One drop of jerk in a sea of saints can mess things up, forget about casinos and gambling halls. The average person is not about what he can contribute as he goes through life, he is about what kind of scam for a free lunch he can pull off, what kind of crap he can get away with, at others expense.

If people can see how they sometimes behave at a table, as if they can see the surveillance video of themselves with audio, they would often be surprised at themselves: "That was ME??!! - naaaa! I don't act like that!" Cough, ahem. In terms of "Pennies in Heaven," many gamblers are running a deficit.

If you say "Well, you don't like dealing, you should get a better job," well, I have done so. But I remember what it was like. I used to think that the average person was relatively decent with good intentions, yada, yada, yada. I now believe to a great degree that the average person is fundamentally self-seeking, and dishonest when given a chance to show his true colors. And it does make sense. If asked, "Where is hell's waiting room?" many would have to admit Planet Earth, or at least Planet Hollywood.

I've read waiters blogs, and thought to myself, "Yup. Very similar."

well said and right on the money.

One can do a simple experiment: With your home computer and printer, Print up a bunch of cash-out slot tickets with good values on them ($147.50, $87.00, etc.) - really good facsimiles, mind you, and place them around a casino in strategic locations. See who takes them to the security desk so that they can find their rightful owner, and who tries to cash them out for themselves. Make prop bets on it, in fact. What odds would you give? (For laughs and giggles, print some out with a casino name that is inconveniently located a distance away.) People in a casino don't think, "aww, some poor bastard forgot his cashout ticket, let me take it to security" - they think "Aha! It's MINE now, all MINE! And F$$k its rightful owner!"

These are the people that dealers, slot techs, and cocktail waitresses provide service to, and put up with, for often no real tips. Not an easy job, and one that deserves to pay better.

Quote: Zcore13

Your average interaction with a bank teller is normally around 30 seconds. A little different from the 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours one might spend playing a table game. Comparing a dealer to a bank teller is a ridiculous comparison. Food servers and bar tenders compare much more closely.

ZCore13

Quote: teddys

Not a bad idea. I'm *really* not a fan of tipping on hand pays. I've stiffed on the last two dollar royals I've gotten (both quite recently). But now I've noticed the slot attendant gives the dirty eyeball when I walk in. Oh boy...

Quote: RaleighCraps

But there are many who believe you should tip the hand pays, and even tip the cage when you cash your chips. The cage transaction is EXACTLY the same as the bank teller, and the hand pay is closely related.

I don't think anyone is arguing that dealers should not be paid a compatible wage. The argument is over who should be paying it, the casino or the player.

It is my understanding that tipping is not done much in Europe. I would be interested to know if dealer's in Europe are paid a good wage from the casino, or if they have to rely on tips, which I don't think is the case. And, if casinos in Europe see fit to pay a full wage to a dealer, than why are American casinos not doing the same thing?

I am a george when I play craps, but I resent the casino for making it my obligation to pay the people who are most likely going to take all my money. I feel like an idiot doing so. And with tip pooling, when I tip a dealer for great service, he/she only gets 1/200 of the tip. The rest of my tip goes to dealers I have never seen. Who makes up that kind of rule? The casino 'encourages' me to help pay part of my dealer's salary, through tipping, but then takes that money, and gives it to all the other dealers I have never seen.

So, am I REALLY tipping for good service from an attentive dealer, or, am I just paying into a kitty to pay the salary of ALL dealers?

Quote: Zcore13

The discussion over who should be paying the dealer the majority of their wage is a frivolous one. Why shouldn't the restaurant pay the server more so we don't have to tip there? Why doesn't the bar pay the bartender more so we don't have to tip there? Why doesn't the cab company pay the driver more so we don't have to tip them? People that argue that they don't tip table games dealers because they shouldn't have to, but then tip in the other situations, have no argument and they are generally just morons. Should you tip if you play for 10 minutes and then leave for dinner? No. But in my opinion, spending the day at the table, win or lose, should be accompanied by a few dollars for the service you are being provided.

It is my opinion that places that have tip pooling should have a modified tip pooling system. Something like the dealer gets half (or some percentage more than half) of all the tips he/she makes and the other half is pooled. That pooled half helps out the dealers that are not on the busiest shifts, floor people who help in the service and entertainment of the customer, covers paid time off when a dealer wants to take some vacation.

Zcore13

Quote: Paigowdan

One can do a simple experiment: With your home computer and printer, Print up a bunch of cash-out slot tickets with good values on them ($147.50, $87.00, etc.) - really good facsimiles, mind you, and place them around a casino in strategic locations. See who takes them to the security desk so that they can find their rightful owner, and who tries to cash them out for themselves. Make prop bets on it, in fact. What odds would you give? (For laughs and giggles, print some out with a casino name that is inconveniently located a distance away.) People in a casino don't think, "aww, some poor bastard forgot his cashout ticket, let me take it to security" - they think "Aha! It's MINE now, all MINE! And F$$k its rightful owner!"
cdealers, slot techs, and cocktail waitresses provide service to, and put up with, for often no real tips. Not an easy job, and one that deserves to pay better.

Quote: AxelWolf

dealers, slot techs, and cocktail waitresses are the same " average person is not about what he can contribute as he goes through life, he is about what kind of scam for a free lunch he can pull off, what kind of crap he can get away with, at others expense.

Quote: beachbumbabs

The atmosphere of a casino with tables is really very different than a slot parlor. The tables indicate sophistication, service, glamour, re-discovering lost days, all kinds of things a slot place really can't present. Even if it's a shoddy downtrodden property, there's a romance about the tables that just doesn't translate to electronics. And there's social interaction well beyond anything possible with slots, at least as they're currently configured.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I don't think anyone is arguing that dealers should not be paid a compatible wage. The argument is over who should be paying it, the casino or the player.
It is my understanding that tipping is not done much in Europe. I would be interested to know if dealer's in Europe are paid a good wage from the casino, or if they have to rely on tips, which I don't think is the case. And, if casinos in Europe see fit to pay a full wage to a dealer, than why are American casinos not doing the same thing?
I firmly believe that were the casino to provide the full wage for the dealers, we would see overall higher table minimums, fewer games, and less advantageous games. As an example, instead of a $10 craps table with 100x odds, imagine a $25 table with 20x odds.
Yes, as Fleastiff mentioned in an above post, deteriorating playing conditions have already been occurring due to other factors, but I see no reason to "add fuel to the fire". But the real reason I believe in the tip system is not game conditions; it's service.
In regards to the casinos that do not allow tipping, I have not been to any, but I have talked with many players who have, and I have also had conversations with many dealers who have worked in such places. I suspect that overall service from the dealers would not meet my expectations. One might easily distinguish those houses that employed dealers with a higher wage, as the dealers should tend to be more efficient (faster game, fewer mistakes, etc.). But there is a huge difference between someone doing a excellent job for the house and providing excellent service to the player.
I WANT a blackjack dealer that sees tip potential when I win larger bets.
I WANT a roulette dealer who is genuinely happy when I hit "two in a row" because I placed a bet for them after the first hit.
I WANT a dice crew that gets excited when the table heats up, and cheers the players on during those 20 minute rolls.
I WANT a dealer who is genuinely happy that I stopped to play at their table, and whether I win, lose, or draw, they show more consideration than the required "Thanks for playing".
Provided I have sufficient funds, the service is what keeps me coming back, and the casinos know this. I firmly believe that any business which allows subsidized wages (tipping) will have the ability to provide superior service over those who do not.

I am a george when I play craps, but I resent the casino for making it my obligation to pay the people who are most likely going to take all my money. I feel like an idiot doing so.
First off, although I am not a dealer, I wish to thank you for taking care of the dealers who take care of you.
While I also somewhat resent the casino for expecting me to provide the majority of dealer earnings, I never hold it against the dealers. The dealers did not "take my money"; I placed bets against the house and lost. With the exception of outright cheating (very rare), there is very little, if anything at all, a dealer can do to make me win or lose.
In this aspect, the dealer is very much like the bank teller mentioned in the posts above- they facilitate the transfer of money from me to the house (or hopefully vice versa).
Yes, excellent service is required from the bank teller. I want her greeting me with a smile. I want her dressed in a nice, professional manner. If attractive to me, that's simply icing on the cake which allows me to flirt with her. I want no mistakes during my financial transaction, and I want the transaction performed quickly.
Yes, the dealer also facilitates transfer of my money. But unlike the bank teller, the dealer should be more than simply polite when I have them "riding with me". This is the best type of service one can provide- individuals who are truly appreciative of my brief stints of "good fortune".
Not so much that I lavish attention, although that in itself is nice, but rather the fact that I know those individuals exercise everything within their power to take care of me.

And with tip pooling, when I tip a dealer for great service, he/she only gets 1/200 of the tip. The rest of my tip goes to dealers I have never seen. Who makes up that kind of rule? The casino 'encourages' me to help pay part of my dealer's salary, through tipping, but then takes that money, and gives it to all the other dealers I have never seen.
So, am I REALLY tipping for good service from an attentive dealer, or, am I just paying into a kitty to pay the salary of ALL dealers?
I too have issues with this, but I also attempt to understand the other viewpoint.
What about the dealer on 3-card poker who sincerely hopes one of the players is gonna get a straight flush, but the big hand doesn't occur? The dealer may have been rooting for the player(s), amiable and professional, yet makes no money due to circumstances beyond their control.
What about the "strong" dice crew that deals a high roller who loses several thousand, and after a night of dealing inordinarily high action, have nothing to show for the hard work because either the guy lost or simply wasn't the type who tips?
What about the excellent blackjack dealer who is usually in high limit, usually makes good tips, but is stationed on roulette that evening because the scheduled roulette dealer called in sick that evening?

As I mentioned, I also have issues, albeit minor, contributing to a pool. For the most part, I don't let it bother me anymore, because I have come to realize that there are bad apples in every barrel.
In most places, other dealers know the "lumps", and I have actually witnessed some dealers criticizing the lumps for not "pulling their weight". If it doesn't appear that the service issue is being addressed in-house, I make it a point to let the bosses know I'm not happy (not tipping), and why I'm not happy.
Then there have been those few instances when I have actually taken an entire dice crew out for dinner/drinks after a great night at the table.
Seeing a favorite blackjack dealer in a convenience store after work and paying for her cigarettes.
Bringing in a Christmas gift to my favorite dealer, etc.
If that particular casino has things so deteriorated that I feel I'm providing a living for too many "lumps", these are some of the ways I show appreciation to the ones who "keep the place running".

Quote: rob45

I firmly believe that were the casino to provide the full wage for the dealers, we would see overall higher table minimums, fewer games, and less advantageous games.

Quote: Zcore13

You are 100% correct on that. If by some magical powers it was ordered that players were not allowed to tip anymore, I would most likely immediately change the game rules or pay tables on every game (Blackjack, Three Card Poker, etc). I currently offer a .55% house advantage on all blackjack games. That would definitely go up. I also offer $5 minimums on every game 24 hours a day. That would change.

Just like any other business, the employees are going to get paid and the customers of the business are going to pay them. The question is how.

ZCore13

Quote: RaleighCraps

Absolutely the players are going to pay for it. That is the only way the casino model works, same as any other business. Your revenues must cover your costs.

But doesn't a casino business operate like any other business, in that you charge what the market can bear? There are plenty of casinos who already have >=$15 minimums, and 6:5 BJ, and they are not paying their dealers.
Do you think your market could sustain $10 minimums? If so, why do you choose to run $5 tables?

Please don't misread my short questions as accusatory. I mean this as a sincere question. And thanks for offering your viewpoints on this topic

Quote: rob45

While I also somewhat resent the casino for expecting me to provide the majority of dealer earnings, I never hold it against the dealers. The dealers did not "take my money"; I placed bets against the house and lost. With the exception of outright cheating (very rare), there is very little, if anything at all, a dealer can do to make me win or lose.

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: rob45

While I also somewhat resent the casino for expecting me to provide the majority of dealer earnings, I never hold it against the dealers. The dealers did not "take my money"; I placed bets against the house and lost. With the exception of outright cheating (very rare), there is very little, if anything at all, a dealer can do to make me win or lose.

Not quite true. The casino hires and trains and supervises the dealers and operates a tip pooling account subject to the dealer's Toke Committee oversight, but in general, the dealers work ON BEHALF OF THE PLAYERS by keeping the game honest. Sure there are rules and the cards come out of the shoe as they will, but the dealers will make sure you have your bet down if you were chatting with a waitress and the stickman will slow the play down or speed it up depending largely on what the PLAYERS need.

Think of a craps game with everyone playing Green and Black chips all morning long. Then I arrive and do my usual Two Reds on the Pass Line for me and a few inches away Two Reds on the Pass Line for the Dealers. If a point is established, I put an Odds bet behind my bet and I put the same amount in Odds behind the Dealer's bet. Now I am only playing Table Minimum, but Stick will have called out "Dealers on the Line" and also will have called out "Dealers have Shoes". Now I don't know what those dealers could recite about the other higher betting players, but I know for sure that The Box, The Stickman and BOTH base dealers know that I'm there! The Dealers also know that my actions and their comments will affect those Green and Black players too.

This doesn't mean the dealers are suddenly going to make me start winning, but it does mean that they are awake and alert and attentive and noticing my playing style so they can remind me if I forget something. No casino with dealers on a salary will have dealers who will be that attentive. Nothing is a better motivation than money!! My tipping a dealer won't make either me or the dealer rich but it will give me a fair shake in all respects. More time to place my bets if I need it, a reminder about Odds if I forget, etc. The dealers all know full well. Decent people tip for service but if they are winners those decent people often tip far more generously and that generous tip, even diluted through tip pooling, is what the dealer wants to earn.

A salaried dealer will yawn, a tipped dealer will be alert and attentive, but each will call out the same number when the dice roll.

Quote: Zcore13

My guess is that the ones that are offering 6-5 games are giving back in a different way. High end food or rooms, shows, nicer facilities, etc. The casino is basically charging what the market will bear. If the market says no, they would have to adjust or go out of business.

I could raise all my minimums to $10, but I just don't think its fair to my regulars. Most of our business is locals. I want them to be able to play for a while on their money. I have consider going to a $6 minimum.

ZCore13

Quote: FleaStiff

Not quite true. The casino hires and trains and supervises the dealers and operates a tip pooling account subject to the dealer's Toke Committee oversight, but in general, the dealers work ON BEHALF OF THE PLAYERS by keeping the game honest. Sure there are rules and the cards come out of the shoe as they will, but the dealers will make sure you have your bet down if you were chatting with a waitress and the stickman will slow the play down or speed it up depending largely on what the PLAYERS need.

Think of a craps game with everyone playing Green and Black chips all morning long. Then I arrive and do my usual Two Reds on the Pass Line for me and a few inches away Two Reds on the Pass Line for the Dealers. If a point is established, I put an Odds bet behind my bet and I put the same amount in Odds behind the Dealer's bet. Now I am only playing Table Minimum, but Stick will have called out "Dealers on the Line" and also will have called out "Dealers have Shoes". Now I don't know what those dealers could recite about the other higher betting players, but I know for sure that The Box, The Stickman and BOTH base dealers know that I'm there! The Dealers also know that my actions and their comments will affect those Green and Black players too.

This doesn't mean the dealers are suddenly going to make me start winning, but it does mean that they are awake and alert and attentive and noticing my playing style so they can remind me if I forget something. No casino with dealers on a salary will have dealers who will be that attentive. Nothing is a better motivation than money!! My tipping a dealer won't make either me or the dealer rich but it will give me a fair shake in all respects. More time to place my bets if I need it, a reminder about Odds if I forget, etc. The dealers all know full well. Decent people tip for service but if they are winners those decent people often tip far more generously and that generous tip, even diluted through tip pooling, is what the dealer wants to earn.

A salaried dealer will yawn, a tipped dealer will be alert and attentive, but each will call out the same number when the dice roll.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I've never gotten a big payout at slots or VP. Ever.

Is it customary though to tip the slot attendant??

Quote:

Someone posted this on UT: OMG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO funny. story of my life!!!! I'm a dealer and it happens all day. I actually didn't have any split face cards but I LOVE WHEN THEY STACK THE CHANGE FROM A BLACK JACK ON THEIR BET...REALLY YOU NEED THAT 2.50 THAT BADLY?

Quote:

AxelWolf This is the BS im talking about. Dealers want a f-ing $2.50 tip every 21 hands on $5 bets. This is not the first time I heard this. RIDICULOUS! The more dealers say the less I want to tip them.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Quote: RaleighCraps

$6 would be an interesting minimum. By the time you factor in every payout having to be 2 different chips, and the takes requiring 2 separate bank piles, how much of a $1 raise in minimum would be eaten up by slower game play?

I think it is great that you think enough of your regulars to be thinking along these lines, but I wonder if you would be able to make it profitable enough.
I like the way you think ZCore. I hope I get a chance to play in your casino some day.

Quote: tringlomane

Yes, it is customary, but I have yet to experience it either. :(

Quote: Beethoven9th

Another tipping question for the board: What are foreign casinos like where tipping is not allowed? Do their table games have some astronomical house advantage or something?

Quote: tringlomane

Poker...yes, rake is much worse. Other table games usually just tend to have higher minimums I think

Quote: Zcore13

I think you've read too many books or listened to too many old school clowns in the industry. I didn't com e up learning stupid superstitions from old sweat joint guys so I do things a bit different. I've spent my entire life working in jobs where the customers matter. For 13 years if my customers weren't happy, I would not have been able to feed my family. 100% commission. I work FOR the customer and WITH my employees to make it a good experience.

I slow down the game on purpose. I want my dealers to interact with the customers. I don't need to take their money now. If my dealers are doing their job creating a pleasant experience and the other staff is doing their job making sure the games are being played fairly, I'll get the money eventually. This would be different if I was in a tourist casino, but I adjust to my customers/situation. I don't just follow what some old geezer wrote in "the book".

I have no concern, if I do end up going to a $6 minimum, of any issues. Will I have to add some more $1 chips to the normal tray? Sure. Is it 2 seconds slower to change $100 with 4 stacks of red and a stack of white as compared to 5 stacks of red? Yes. But what if they stay and play longer than other places because they enjoy it more?

ZCore13

Quote: 1BB

I'm surprised that maximizing hands dealt is not a priority.

Quote: FleaStiff

When it was further mandated that dealers would give 'best move' advice, it clearly meant dealers would be talking rather than speed dealing.

Quote:

Dealers who smile, chat, introduce themselves, ask about their players, offer advice, etc. are maximizing tips and house income

Quote: allinriverking

Here is a bit about what Dealers provide and a explanation about why they want you to win...

Dealers Duties

Quote: Beethoven9th

My problem is with dealers who do none of the above, yet they still expect a big tip. Can't stand guys like that.

Quote: beachbumbabs

my not-quite-so knowledgable impression is that the majority of dealers don't run the alternative result down in their head and spot your evaluation skills. I could be wrong. I'm thinking, though, that you're really good at camoflaging your above-average awareness, or they wouldn't be offering unsolicited advice in either case.

Quote: AxelWolf

I realize he may just be trying to make a point, but all around this is a bad example for an experiment. Please let me know if anyone tries doing this, I want to be there when you try to explain to gaming control why you have counterfeit slot tickets.

Quote: AxelWolf

this experiment should be done with a wallet and not a slot ticket. Most people would assume that it would never get returned to it's rightful owner.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quite a few casino security guards are corrupted. I know this from many personal experiences
If you find a slot ticket I suggest you call security and ask them if anyone has reported missing a slot ticket, if so, without telling them make sure they know the amount on the ticket. Take a abandon slot ticket to security and and ask them what happens if no one ever claims the lost ticket.

dealers, slot techs, and cocktail waitresses are the same " average person is not about what he can contribute as he goes through life, he is about what kind of scam for a free lunch he can pull off, what kind of crap he can get away with, at others expense.

Quote: Mosca

I think the experiment WAS done with a wallet, and most people returned it. It's been done a number of times, here is the first Google result.

Thursday night I had a slot ticket fall out of my pocket without my knowing. Someone picked it up and gave it back to me.

Quote: kewlj

For those of you, dealers and casino folks from the other side of the table that think I am a cheap b**tard for not tipping you, I wanted to give you an update on 'your' tip money. I gave out $120 in $5 bills to homeless folks yesterday on Frement street. I ran out of my supply of fives long before I ran out of homeless. It was midday on a Saturday, so that was to be expected. Earlier this year, I walked the strip, both sides doing likewise. Handed out 85 or 86 of my allotment of 100, $5 bills that day.

Anyway, just wanted to keep you dealer folks updated on where your tip money is. The homeless greatly appreciate your kindness. :-)

Quote: CRMousseau

Since the tip thread is roaring along once again, I'd just like to point out that, despite being a well above average tipper (and FAR above median one), I have been hustled more times than I care to count, and disrespected for "merely" handing in my silver off of a $25 blackjack. And it's infuriating. I'll be at a craps table with five stiffs, have $1 on the line with racetrack odds for the dealers and get hustled to take 10x odds in the middle of a hot roll. True story. Next roll: 6-1, straight out. I unloaded on the stick man who did it, with a tirade that ended with "I'm off to the bar to play video poker, where $50/hr in tips is enough to not get you hustled by an ingrate", and yeah, I was pissed and rightly so.

Zero tolerance for hard hustles, will generally return a soft hustle with something equally passive-aggressive.

Quote: Paigowdan

4. You spend your money as you see fit. So you essentially bought a lot of crack for a lot of homeless people, (otherwise you would have been handing out big macs.) 100 $5 bills is 100 nickel bags.

You've made this board proud.

Quote: kewlj

I am not familiar with the cash to crack exchange rate Dan, so I will take your word on that. I guess you are in the know. :-)

I am well aware of the convential wisdom, that you should not give the homeless money, but rather supply them with actual goods. I don't subscribe entirely to that. Most of the homeless that I encounter panhandling, I observe to be alcoholics rather than crack addicts, and I am a pretty good judge of character as I donate half a day each week working at a homeless shelter. I have stated before that I have no problem giving a few buck, which I do every single day to someone less fortunate and if they choose to run to the corner store and buy a forty ounce beer to help them escape their situation for a few hours, so be it. I am completely OK with that and even simpathize with the need to escape their current situation even if just for a few hours.

My personal goal is to show compassion to those less fortunate. I don't put pre-conditions on that compassion. Although I was homeless for a period at the end of my senior year in high school, my situation was always temporary, and as soon as I graduated, I was leaving town, to start a new life. So I don't equate my brief period with being stuck in a permanate bad situation and can't begin to imagine the feeling involved in that.

BTW, I am no saint. My personal view of giving a little both time and money to those less fortunate benefit myself as much as anyone else. Really helps keep me grounded and appreciate what I have and what good fortune I have enjoyed. :-)

Quote: kewlj

For those of you, dealers and casino folks from the other side of the table that think I am a cheap b**tard for not tipping you, I wanted to give you an update on 'your' tip money. I gave out $120 in $5 bills to homeless folks yesterday on Frement street. I ran out of my supply of fives long before I ran out of homeless. It was midday on a Saturday, so that was to be expected. Earlier this year, I walked the strip, both sides doing likewise. Handed out 85 or 86 of my allotment of 100, $5 bills that day.

Anyway, just wanted to keep you dealer folks updated on where your tip money is. The homeless greatly appreciate your kindness. :-)