Has a dealer ever payed you on a loss or tie and what did you do if anything?
Poll
 | 25 votes (71.42%) | ||
| | 9 votes (25.71%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2.85%) |
35 members have voted
April 27th, 2012 at 7:10:44 AM
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On the rudest thread I commented on my playing style and I would like to elaborate on it. My goal is to win or break even consistently. However I also look forward to attaining an enjoyable experience while playing and again I understand it has no bearing on the results, or does it? I always make some small talk with my dealer and throw out an occasional toke. I play 3 times a week every week except when I bring the wife to a show. I don't know what constitutes an abnormality or an honest mistake but I get payed on a loss or tie approximatively once evey 4 to 5 visits.
Just added: If you received an incorrect payoff did you at any time after the event say anything to the dealer? I have never acknowledged it.
Just added: If you received an incorrect payoff did you at any time after the event say anything to the dealer? I have never acknowledged it.
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
April 27th, 2012 at 7:25:39 AM
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I recall reading long ago that one reason to toke is because Mistakes Can Happen; and when you toke, it's a funny thing, but they can happen in your favor.
I have seen it in action, e.g. a toked dealer "forgets" to take down a come bet if a seven shows on an ensuing comeout, or "forgets" to take down a hard way bet if it shows soft.
I too want a pleasant gambling experience, and toking a little bit promotes good will and good service.
I have seen it in action, e.g. a toked dealer "forgets" to take down a come bet if a seven shows on an ensuing comeout, or "forgets" to take down a hard way bet if it shows soft.
I too want a pleasant gambling experience, and toking a little bit promotes good will and good service.
"What, me worry?"
April 27th, 2012 at 7:27:52 AM
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Interesting.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
April 27th, 2012 at 7:47:47 AM
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That's a good way to get the 5 to 10 "en prison" bonus.Quote: MrVI recall reading long ago that one reason to toke is because Mistakes Can Happen; and when you toke, it's a funny thing, but they can happen in your favor.
--Ms. D.
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
April 27th, 2012 at 8:05:48 AM
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Dealers make mistakes in the casino's favor. I don't catch them all. Sometimes they move too fast for me to protest. And by the time I raise a concern, the cards are already stacked in the discard pile. If the dealer makes a mistake in my favor, I'm inclined to let it go since it'll even out in the end and I may be wrong in my assessments.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
April 27th, 2012 at 8:15:38 AM
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I don't take money I didn't win or earn, or isn't rightfully mine. Any "wrong money" is simply that.
If I don't let dealers underpay me, and hold them to correct play there, then I don't take money that isn't mine by correct play also.
That's how I "average it out"- but not justifying or accepting wrong money decisions in ANY direction that I ever catch.
If I know the play or payout is incorrect, I am responsible for saying something whether or not it's in my favor, - doesn't matter which direction. Matters that something wrong happened, and that I know I took dirty money. I don't say "it's the dealer's job or reponsibility;"
I say if I KNOW that it's wrong money to take, and then I do nothing, then I did something wrong, that is, taking money I KNOW isn't mine, that I did not earn.
For that matter, if a clerk gives me change for for a $20 but I paid her with a $10, I also return the money that I am not entitled to.
I used to think that most people are fundamentally decent and honest. I now know that most people are fundamentally dishonest and larcenous, petty cheats if they can get away with something, and don't give a damn about what is right and decent unless it concerns them in their favor. Most care only in what they can get away with for themselves as they go through their lives. The voting here openly says that this is true. Dealers read people the way book editors read books.
If I don't let dealers underpay me, and hold them to correct play there, then I don't take money that isn't mine by correct play also.
That's how I "average it out"- but not justifying or accepting wrong money decisions in ANY direction that I ever catch.
If I know the play or payout is incorrect, I am responsible for saying something whether or not it's in my favor, - doesn't matter which direction. Matters that something wrong happened, and that I know I took dirty money. I don't say "it's the dealer's job or reponsibility;"
I say if I KNOW that it's wrong money to take, and then I do nothing, then I did something wrong, that is, taking money I KNOW isn't mine, that I did not earn.
For that matter, if a clerk gives me change for for a $20 but I paid her with a $10, I also return the money that I am not entitled to.
I used to think that most people are fundamentally decent and honest. I now know that most people are fundamentally dishonest and larcenous, petty cheats if they can get away with something, and don't give a damn about what is right and decent unless it concerns them in their favor. Most care only in what they can get away with for themselves as they go through their lives. The voting here openly says that this is true. Dealers read people the way book editors read books.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:16:28 AM
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I've kept quiet many times with nary a qualm. I've also cheerfully given it back. If the dealer is a jerk I'm keeping quiet. If I think the dealer is trying to help me, I immediately leave the table. I don't want even a hint of collusion.
I was playing blackjack recently and the dealer went out of her way to point out how I ruined different hands. That's what happens when you sit at third base. Usually it's the players but this time it was the dealer. I politely asked her to stop to no avail.
I was dealt a $75 blackjack and she paid me, but forgot to pick up my cards. I took the $112.50 and left the $75 in the betting circle. Miss Know It All finished the hand and paid me another $112.50!
I said nothing and it felt sooooo good!
I was playing blackjack recently and the dealer went out of her way to point out how I ruined different hands. That's what happens when you sit at third base. Usually it's the players but this time it was the dealer. I politely asked her to stop to no avail.
I was dealt a $75 blackjack and she paid me, but forgot to pick up my cards. I took the $112.50 and left the $75 in the betting circle. Miss Know It All finished the hand and paid me another $112.50!
I said nothing and it felt sooooo good!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
April 27th, 2012 at 9:27:23 AM
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Quote: Paigowdan
For that matter, if a clerk gives me change for for a $20 but I paid her with a $10, I also return the money that I am not entitled to.
I used to think that most people are fundamentally decent and honest. I now know that most people are fundamentally dishonest and larcenous, petty cheats if they can get away with something, and don't give a damn about what is right and decent unless it concerns them in their favor. Most care only in what they can get away with for themselves as they go through their lives. The voting here openly says that this is true. Dealers read people the way book editors read books.
When a clerk gives me the wrong change, I will also correct it because I know it will come out of his/her pocket. That is a big difference from taking a wrongfull payout that is coming out of the casino's pocket.
I take offense that someone that takes an incorrect payoff is a "fundamentally dishonest and larcenous, petty cheats."
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
April 27th, 2012 at 9:49:39 AM
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My answer would be both. But there was no choice for that.
Also, I think we've had a thread like this once before. Or was it thirty seven times before. The good news is that Dan can just copy and paste answers from previous threads instead of writing new ones if he so chooses.
Also, I think we've had a thread like this once before. Or was it thirty seven times before. The good news is that Dan can just copy and paste answers from previous threads instead of writing new ones if he so chooses.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:01:15 AM
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I agree with Dan, honesty is black and white. Therefore, I have been dishonest. I have also been cheated, unintentionally I'm sure, by dealers mistakes. I think they pretty much even themselves out.
One time playing pot limit poker at the Golden Nugget I caught 4 Jacks which paid $100.00. The dealer scooped up the cards when everybody but me folded. I had them review the tapes for that one and they paid me.
There's another dealer at the Horseshoe in Bossier City that I refuse to play with because he makes so many mistakes. If he's working relief and relieves the dealer where I'm playing, I'll get up from the table no matter how well or badly I'm doing at the time. I don't know how he keeps a job.
One time playing pot limit poker at the Golden Nugget I caught 4 Jacks which paid $100.00. The dealer scooped up the cards when everybody but me folded. I had them review the tapes for that one and they paid me.
There's another dealer at the Horseshoe in Bossier City that I refuse to play with because he makes so many mistakes. If he's working relief and relieves the dealer where I'm playing, I'll get up from the table no matter how well or badly I'm doing at the time. I don't know how he keeps a job.
Stupid is a choice
April 27th, 2012 at 10:02:57 AM
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Quote: 1BBIf I think the dealer is trying to help me, I immediately leave the table. I don't want even a hint of collusion.
I agree. I would not want to be accused of collusion.
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
April 27th, 2012 at 10:09:12 AM
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Quote: only1choiceWhen a clerk gives me the wrong change, I will also correct it because I know it will come out of his/her pocket. That is a big difference from taking a wrongfull payout that is coming out of the casino's pocket.
Why is this? What differences does it make if it's a car wash, a 7-11, a gambling hall, a movie house?
Knowingly taking dirty money you know was a mistake is simply that.
Quote: only1choiceI take offense that someone that takes an incorrect payoff is a "fundamentally dishonest and larcenous, petty cheats."
Sorry to hear, but well, they are fundamentally dishonest, same as taking money from a mistake you've seen that isn't earned or won, at a 7-11, a bank, etc. It's a person's ethics here; you can say that it's the bank clerk's responsibility, the 7-11 clerk's responsibility, etc., but it boils down to WHAT you KNOW and WHAT you DO to either take - or reject - that wrong money.
Most people, if given a chance, would just eagerly shove that money into the pocket.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:10:41 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleMy answer would be both. But there was no choice for that.
Also, I think we've had a thread like this once before. Or was it thirty seven times before. The good news is that Dan can just copy and paste answers from previous threads instead of writing new ones if he so chooses.
I don't C&P, I'm fresh every day, like Dunkin Doughnuts.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:17:00 AM
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You have had your say, I had mine. I'm moving on.
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
April 27th, 2012 at 10:17:49 AM
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The kitchen and the heat....
Ciao, baby.....
Ciao, baby.....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:22:34 AM
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Whats your problem chief? This forumn is to exchange ideas and events. You seem to be involved for another reason. I am not going to give you the time of day!
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
April 27th, 2012 at 10:29:04 AM
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Quote: only1choiceWhats your problem chief? This forumn is to exchange ideas and events. You seem to be involved for another reason. I am not going to give you the time of day!
No problem here, and I certainly don't rely on your time of day.
I too was just exchanging ideas - as well as pointing out some obvious behaviors in the human condition, clear and obvious behaviors once pointed out, that we really don't bother to look at, or feel uncomfortable looking at. Namely, our own propensity to cheat, to take advantage, or apply clear double standards over personal ethics if we can get away with something - when our own desires and greed kick in.
Most people are to some degree basically or slightly corrupt (the voting shows 88% :) ): they will knowingly take money that they are not entitled to, - if given an opportunity - and even openly admit this - but cry foul and read the riot act if the shoe were on the other foot.
An incorrect payout to the player is just as incorrect as a wrong payout to the dealer; essentially, they ARE equal, both incorrect payouts.
Neither one is good, and neither one should be desirable in any way, that is, if not corrupt to some degree.
Here at this board, some people say, "you know, that's a good point, Dan," - and others are disturbed and upset by this position. Very interesting, very revealing.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:35:31 AM
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And always remember if you know the ratio of 10's to non 10's is over 2 to 1 , and Dan offers you insurance, YOU MUST REFUSE !!!!
April 27th, 2012 at 10:36:32 AM
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No, you do what you want.
People answer to themselves - and often, there's nobody home.
People answer to themselves - and often, there's nobody home.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:40:10 AM
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But you have called me a cheater in the past for doing just that.
And I only questioned your decision making process, not your integrity.
And I only questioned your decision making process, not your integrity.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:41:54 AM
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Maybe we can discuss this over a friendly game of 8 ball next week ?
April 27th, 2012 at 10:43:04 AM
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Sure.....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:45:06 AM
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Interesting.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
April 27th, 2012 at 10:45:23 AM
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I can guarantee that I will definitely beat the dealer that day ! LOL
April 27th, 2012 at 10:55:01 AM
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People make mistakes. Quite often they're innocent, sometimes they're not.
Dealers notice player mistakes, and players notice dealers mistakes. I will say that an Any-7 bet is an unexpected bet for the end of a roll. Notice that players who make pass line & odds, and place-6/8 bets never have this problem, and notice almost no errors. but DC players notice more errors, too.
I don't think it is a questions of "well, you dealers are crooked" or "well, you players are crooked." People make mistakes, and people are corrupt. Everyone acts for themselves, and reveals themselves.
I will say that dealers have NO incentive to steal FOR the house, and EVERY incentive to steal against the house and for the player (more action, better tips, along the fact that management is not at all viewed as "your friend.") Dealers are referees who are tasked to carry out the correct play and payouts based on the results of the cards and dice with no feelings for anyone, just try to be as accurate as possible without taking sides. And believe me, dealers take no sides, certainly not for management.
But this is not about dealers, or saying, "Well! Dealers make mistakes!" We all do.
It's about knowlingly taking dirty money ourselves, in what WE do, without claiming "oh! That's someone ELSE's job here! And many of us would simply do it if given the chance.
We see it; shoot, people admit it. Look at the voting results: "Shut up and take the money, and make a stash!" it says. I'm actually satisfied with the voting results. It totally validates what I think what the average Joe would do.
Dealers notice player mistakes, and players notice dealers mistakes. I will say that an Any-7 bet is an unexpected bet for the end of a roll. Notice that players who make pass line & odds, and place-6/8 bets never have this problem, and notice almost no errors. but DC players notice more errors, too.
I don't think it is a questions of "well, you dealers are crooked" or "well, you players are crooked." People make mistakes, and people are corrupt. Everyone acts for themselves, and reveals themselves.
I will say that dealers have NO incentive to steal FOR the house, and EVERY incentive to steal against the house and for the player (more action, better tips, along the fact that management is not at all viewed as "your friend.") Dealers are referees who are tasked to carry out the correct play and payouts based on the results of the cards and dice with no feelings for anyone, just try to be as accurate as possible without taking sides. And believe me, dealers take no sides, certainly not for management.
But this is not about dealers, or saying, "Well! Dealers make mistakes!" We all do.
It's about knowlingly taking dirty money ourselves, in what WE do, without claiming "oh! That's someone ELSE's job here! And many of us would simply do it if given the chance.
We see it; shoot, people admit it. Look at the voting results: "Shut up and take the money, and make a stash!" it says. I'm actually satisfied with the voting results. It totally validates what I think what the average Joe would do.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:00:40 AM
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LOL " It's about knowlingly taking dirty money ourselves."
I am sure you don't pay with dirty money. i remember being lectured about that in dealer school.
I am sure you don't pay with dirty money. i remember being lectured about that in dealer school.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:23:40 AM
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I've had more instances where the mistake is in the casinos favor. Either the dealer realizes the mistake, another player does, or I do.
On my last trip I had a dealer at the Aria charge my commission on Baccarat to the player next to me. I made sure to bring that up. Don't even think that player placed a bet on that hand.
On my last trip I had a dealer at the Aria charge my commission on Baccarat to the player next to me. I made sure to bring that up. Don't even think that player placed a bet on that hand.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:36:17 AM
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It's a mixed bag. Depends on POV and situation. I work in a casino where there are veteran dealers with very little turnover, and virtually the entire local player group is knowledgeable and honest; Many courteous, honest, and salt-of-the-earth travelers from the mid-west also. Almost NEVER an incident, except during waves of some rough conventions, etc., or alcohol related or a "shot-taker influx," so to speak.
I notice tons of player errors on pai Gow or craps with new players: fouled hands, etc., a part of the game learning process.
The Aria Baccarat mistake was obviously a simple, nonconspiratorial error, dealer probably had the accrued commission lammers in the wrong player slot for the immediately adjacent player. Players didn't notice the lammer spot error, too, (not their job) until it was time to pay, but it was caught and corrected. Good for you saying "he doesn't pay commission, I do." ! Also, consider Commission free EZ Baccarat, [gets rid of this problem, shameless plug for DEQ...]
But this is not about errors, per se; it's about the specific response to an error in our favor as players: ya KNOW it's wrong money, do ya TAKE IT? C'mon, c'mon, I know you want it, the little devil on our shoulder says. Do you listen and ACT? Not me. Do you protest at the obvious ethics of this situation being pointed out? Many yes, some no.
I notice tons of player errors on pai Gow or craps with new players: fouled hands, etc., a part of the game learning process.
The Aria Baccarat mistake was obviously a simple, nonconspiratorial error, dealer probably had the accrued commission lammers in the wrong player slot for the immediately adjacent player. Players didn't notice the lammer spot error, too, (not their job) until it was time to pay, but it was caught and corrected. Good for you saying "he doesn't pay commission, I do." ! Also, consider Commission free EZ Baccarat, [gets rid of this problem, shameless plug for DEQ...]
But this is not about errors, per se; it's about the specific response to an error in our favor as players: ya KNOW it's wrong money, do ya TAKE IT? C'mon, c'mon, I know you want it, the little devil on our shoulder says. Do you listen and ACT? Not me. Do you protest at the obvious ethics of this situation being pointed out? Many yes, some no.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:49:09 AM
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It all comes down to how one sees oneself and to what kind of world one wants.
Would you pull the wings off of a butterfly for $1000? Pulling off those wings is only a matter of degree away from taking a payoff (or change) that you know isn't yours.
Do you want to live in a selfish world lacking in kindness, in which everyone takes things that do not belong to them? If not, does taking that mistaken payoff improve or degrade the world?
Would you pull the wings off of a butterfly for $1000? Pulling off those wings is only a matter of degree away from taking a payoff (or change) that you know isn't yours.
Do you want to live in a selfish world lacking in kindness, in which everyone takes things that do not belong to them? If not, does taking that mistaken payoff improve or degrade the world?
April 27th, 2012 at 11:53:03 AM
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I'm not saying it is ethically different, but the reason is simple: At the end of the shift, those clerks have to balance thier drawer. If there's a discrepancy, you know that the clerk will either have to cover the loss, or get written up, or worse.Quote: PaigowdanWhy is this? What differences does it make if it's a car wash, a 7-11, a gambling hall, a movie house?Quote: only1choiceWhen a clerk gives me the wrong change, I will also correct it because I know it will come out of his/her pocket. That is a big difference from taking a wrongfull payout that is coming out of the casino's pocket.
Knowingly taking dirty money you know was a mistake is simply that.
There's no such end-of-day balancing in a casino that we know of.
Additionally, on occasion, when a dealer is alerted to a mistake in a players favor, some dealers will tell the player to keep it, rather than risk getting written up.
---
Yeah, dark-side craps players tend to complain the most about dealer mistakes. The reason is simple: The math is more difficult, and the dealers don't have enough darf-side players to get them used to the difficult math.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 27th, 2012 at 12:14:09 PM
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This once happened to me three times in a 45-minute span at a casino in downtown Vegas. The dealer was polite and funny, and enjoyed talking to us.
The first time she paid me on a push, and I pointed it out and didn't take it.
The second time, she paid me on a loss, and I pointed it out and didn't take it.
The third time actually happened after she got into a disagreement with another player (who was in the wrong), and I told the player he was wrong.
We pushed, and she again shoved out my "winnings" and gave me a "Just take the dumb thing" look. So I took it and just doubled my best next time (was betting nickels).
Switched shifts a few minutes later, and didn't bump into her again for the rest of the trip.
The first time she paid me on a push, and I pointed it out and didn't take it.
The second time, she paid me on a loss, and I pointed it out and didn't take it.
The third time actually happened after she got into a disagreement with another player (who was in the wrong), and I told the player he was wrong.
We pushed, and she again shoved out my "winnings" and gave me a "Just take the dumb thing" look. So I took it and just doubled my best next time (was betting nickels).
Switched shifts a few minutes later, and didn't bump into her again for the rest of the trip.
April 27th, 2012 at 12:25:12 PM
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Quote: DJTBI'm not saying it is ethically different, but the reason is simple: At the end of the shift, those clerks have to balance thier drawer. If there's a discrepancy, you know that the clerk will either have to cover the loss, or get written up, or worse.
There's no such end-of-day balancing in a casino that we know of.
Additionally, on occasion, when a dealer is alerted to a mistake in a players favor, some dealers will tell the player to keep it, rather than risk getting written up.
---
Yeah, dark-side craps players tend to complain the most about dealer mistakes. The reason is simple: The math is more difficult, and the dealers don't have enough darf-side players to get them used to the difficult math.
Dave:
1. Balance the drawer? No, believe me, casinos check the drawers and balance the drawers, and it is the same ethically for the individual's POV, that is: do YOU take money you KNOW is wrong? Besides, if there's a funny loss related to a dealer perhaps due to mistakes, the dealer gets sacked, out of a job, often while training. Some learn to become fine dealers. I wouldn't want to be the prick in such a circumstance.
2. "Keep it, buddy..": Dealers may not make calls on spotted errors, it is always a floor alert. Some "field expedient" quick-and-dirty solutions like that don't fly, and is just an attempt to avoid floor notice of mistakes or potential write-ups. What if his unemployeed brother-in-law was secretly at the table? "Opps, I over paid you - so keep it. Shh!"
3. Three-card poker originally had an error in its design, a de facto mathematical overpayment on the Pair-Plus' original paytable in Atlantic city. Casinos pulled the game and absolutely trashed the game. This cost Three-Card Poker four years of "patent clock time" until it was re-introduced in Mississippi a few years later. As a game designer who is ostensibly supposed to support casino operators and distributors, what if there's an error on PFR, causing unacceptable house loses, and they kill your game? (on this, they will if this happens, Dave..) - Can you tell them, "oh, I though you guys didn't balance the cash drawers.....no wonder it generates action...." Wow...aside from the ethical implications; and wow, there, too. Thankfully, this is most unlikely considering the source of your math verification, but still...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 12:49:05 PM
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Dan, chill.
I do basically agree with you, but was trying to answer the questions you posed.
For the record, I did say it's not ethically different. I also said that there's no balancing that we know of. By "we", I meant as players. At the cash register, even item is rung thru, so it's easy to see, even if you never worked as a cashier, that the cashier might be held accountable for errors. And you've given me cause to start a new thread about a similar situation.
Regarding the dealers who tell a player to keep it, sure, it's VERY wrong of them to do it. But a player only has to witness that once or twice to get "trained" to keep their mouth shut about such things.
I do basically agree with you, but was trying to answer the questions you posed.
For the record, I did say it's not ethically different. I also said that there's no balancing that we know of. By "we", I meant as players. At the cash register, even item is rung thru, so it's easy to see, even if you never worked as a cashier, that the cashier might be held accountable for errors. And you've given me cause to start a new thread about a similar situation.
Regarding the dealers who tell a player to keep it, sure, it's VERY wrong of them to do it. But a player only has to witness that once or twice to get "trained" to keep their mouth shut about such things.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 27th, 2012 at 12:54:11 PM
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" Thankfully, this is most unlikely considering the source of your math verification "
Now you tell me, with just 5 days till the focus group. GRRRRRR
Now you tell me, with just 5 days till the focus group. GRRRRRR
April 27th, 2012 at 12:55:10 PM
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dont correct mistakes in your favor. correct mistakes not in your favor. if a mistake is made in your favor and the floor requests for you to pay them back, then pay them back. mistakes are a cost of them doing business. all this stuff about being "honest" is a load of crap. you do nothing but hurt yourself to correct a mistake in your favor.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:04:04 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearAnd you've given me cause to start a new thread about a similar situation.
Actually, I created a new poll for this: Cashier error ethics poll
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 27th, 2012 at 1:06:07 PM
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Dan I voted for 'take the money and run' but not because I want an unearned gain. Usually if I receive an improper pay out in my favour I will pause to pick up my chips a little slower and glance at the dealer. If they don't rectify the error I will pick up the chips. I will often simply take this unearned money and play it as a toke for the dealers. I used to notify the dealer that they had made an error. Often when I did this the dealer when seem less than pleased that I had pointed it outl Maybe because they might face some discipline for too many errors? It would also usually cause a disruption in the flow of the game which had everyone upset at the dice being pulled back while the error was corrected and more than likely with some with some discussion over the correct pay out. If the dealers can make an error than it is also even more likely that the player, with usually much less table time, can make an error. Often for a player to notice what he thinks is an error, review in his mind the correct payout to confirm he is right and then point out the error to the dealer the dice are already in the air. These things all contribute to the error not being corrected by the player but not necessarily for a purely selfish reason.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:10:11 PM
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1. I'm chilled. I'm enjoying this and just making points. The maker of an ethical argument disturbs some of the others, but not himself. He watches the responses and says, "this is interesting...."
2. Rudeboyoi, very fine. We are here to display our opinions and ourselves. For anyone with a bit of corruption or larceny in them, - then being honest IS INDEED a load of crap. "You do nothing but hurt yourself to correct a mistake in your favor." "Screw everyone else! - I am the only one that counts in MY book!" :)
The other week I went to the Cannery to play after work. I EO'd (early out from work, evening shift), didn't call my wife. She was asleep. I bought in for $500, and left with $1,000.
Came home and told my wife:
1. I did a little gambling...
NOW, do I tell my wife:
2A. I lost, no money back into the joint account; Sorry, Honey.
2B. I broke even, here's our $500 back!
2C. I made $500 profit, here's the full $1,000. Do some shopping...
Every excuse and justification not to do the right thing is just an excuse ("it'll slow the game down, it'll cause problems, the game moves faster" - like the player is auditing hands-per-hour on behalf of the casino operator and doing THEM a favor for it...."so, you know, I just GOTTA take the money I know is wrong, you see, I'm doing you a favor...") - It's a justification to not do the right thing, we're human....and Yes, I see, we see. Often it's an entertaining show that people put on....can't help but to notice...
2. Rudeboyoi, very fine. We are here to display our opinions and ourselves. For anyone with a bit of corruption or larceny in them, - then being honest IS INDEED a load of crap. "You do nothing but hurt yourself to correct a mistake in your favor." "Screw everyone else! - I am the only one that counts in MY book!" :)
The other week I went to the Cannery to play after work. I EO'd (early out from work, evening shift), didn't call my wife. She was asleep. I bought in for $500, and left with $1,000.
Came home and told my wife:
1. I did a little gambling...
NOW, do I tell my wife:
2A. I lost, no money back into the joint account; Sorry, Honey.
2B. I broke even, here's our $500 back!
2C. I made $500 profit, here's the full $1,000. Do some shopping...
Every excuse and justification not to do the right thing is just an excuse ("it'll slow the game down, it'll cause problems, the game moves faster" - like the player is auditing hands-per-hour on behalf of the casino operator and doing THEM a favor for it...."so, you know, I just GOTTA take the money I know is wrong, you see, I'm doing you a favor...") - It's a justification to not do the right thing, we're human....and Yes, I see, we see. Often it's an entertaining show that people put on....can't help but to notice...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:20:02 PM
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Wow...the "take the money and run" vote percentage dropped from its initial 88% to 66%, from 9 out of 10, to 2 out of 3.
Progress....
Progress....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:24:51 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan
2. For anyone with a bit of corruption or larceny in them, - "You do nothing but hurt yourself to correct a mistake in your favor." "Screw everyone else! - I am the only one that counts in MY book!" :)
i dont recall saying either of those statements.
Quote: Paigowdan
NOW, do I tell my wife:
2A. I lost, no money back into the joint account; Sorry, Honey.
2B. I broke even, here's our $500 back!
2C. I made $500 profit, here's the full $1,000. Do some shopping...
if 2A is ever the correct answer, then you two should probably not be married. 2B might be the correct answer to protect her if gambling scares her, that way if you do lose $500 in the future you can then say you broke even again. the first part of 2C "I made $500 profit" is the way it should be with you two being honest with eachother.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:39:33 PM
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Quote: rudeboyoiQuote: Paigowdan
2. For anyone with a bit of corruption or larceny in them, - "You do nothing but hurt yourself to correct a mistake in your favor." "Screw everyone else! - I am the only one that counts in MY book!" :)
i dont recall saying either of those statements.
Never said that you did, specifically or meant to, please know that, this is a general position on people know knowingly take the improper or gaffed money, and try to get away with it. People are just being people.
Quote: rudeboyoiif 2A is ever the correct answer, then you two should probably not be married. 2B might be the correct answer to protect her if gambling scares her, that way if you do lose $500 in the future you can then say you broke even again. the first part of 2C "I made $500 profit" is the way it should be with you two being honest with eachother.
It was 2C. I can count on her to do the same, there's never been any doubt or incident to any other effect.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:46:02 PM
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What is it with the runaway bold type?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 27th, 2012 at 1:52:29 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan. Dealers notice player mistakes, and players notice dealers mistakes. I will say that an Any-7 bet is an unexpected bet for the end of a roll. Notice that players who make pass line & odds, and place-6/8 bets never have this problem, and notice almost no errors. but DC players notice more errors, too.
I have given up on the Pass line & Odds, place 6 &8's or continuous come bets with odds like so many people are told is the best way to play craps based on "probability". I have been losing a lot of money for way too long to continue playing "Craps Basic Strategy" so I now play a mix of Pass Line, Medium Odds, Come Bets, Place Bets, Converted Come Bets, Hardways and Horns and I have noticed that I am winning a lot more consistently.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
April 27th, 2012 at 2:11:56 PM
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I'm not voting in this thread or making a comment about the thread in general. However, I want to comment about a comment I ALMOST made this morning when it first got started.
I was going to say, "And Paigowdan will be chiming in in 3...2...1..." It would have been about 10 minutes after that where his first comment would have been posted.
I didn't say this, because in a previous thread, somebody called me out on calling HIM out. I thought maybe the OP was a newbie who wasn't aware of the debate that would be generated by this thread, but he/she has been a member longer than I have.
I don't mind debate, but there are two sides to this where there will NEVER be a middle ground so I'm opting to stay out...
But my first comment I wanted to make would have been dead on...
I was going to say, "And Paigowdan will be chiming in in 3...2...1..." It would have been about 10 minutes after that where his first comment would have been posted.
I didn't say this, because in a previous thread, somebody called me out on calling HIM out. I thought maybe the OP was a newbie who wasn't aware of the debate that would be generated by this thread, but he/she has been a member longer than I have.
I don't mind debate, but there are two sides to this where there will NEVER be a middle ground so I'm opting to stay out...
But my first comment I wanted to make would have been dead on...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
April 27th, 2012 at 2:14:21 PM
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Quote: TiltpoulI didn't say this, because in a previous thread, somebody called me out on calling HIM out.
I came close to saying something along those lines, too. With a "literally" thrown in for Ms. D's benefit, naturally.
Quote:I don't mind debate, but there are two sides to this where there will NEVER be a middle ground so I'm opting to stay out...
You can still opine on dice control and tipping ;)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 27th, 2012 at 2:23:29 PM
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Quote: TiltpoulI'm not voting in this thread or making a comment about the thread in general. However, I want to comment about a comment I ALMOST made this morning when it first got started.
I was going to say, "And Paigowdan will be chiming in in 3...2...1..." It would have been about 10 minutes after that where his first comment would have been posted.
Yes, I generally read and write little, - except when the topic touches upon gamblers and ethics. There, there is wealth and much room for progress. Massive room, huge expanses. Most topics on game design, etc., are well developed, with people far along. Not here on this.
Quote: tiltpoulI didn't say this, because in a previous thread, somebody called me out on calling HIM out. I thought maybe the OP was a newbie who wasn't aware of the debate that would be generated by this thread, but he/she has been a member longer than I have.
don't worry about that, I wouldn't worry about that.
Quote: TiltpoulI don't mind debate, but there are two sides to this where there will NEVER be a middle ground so I'm opting to stay out...
No there isn't.
There's only ONE side: clean play and money is the goal.
It is UNDER that there are two sides.: take only clean money, or take the dirty money, and justify it by blaming/claiming it on some evil third party. That's it. It is not a dealer vs. player vs. casino operator issue, it's a personal ethics issue: practice clean money and play, or not. Most gamblers fail to some degree.
Quote: TiltpoutBut my first comment I wanted to make would have been dead on...
yes. If you would have had to make a bet, it's laying the odds.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 27th, 2012 at 2:40:23 PM
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no. there is only one answer and i provided that answer. the whole goal of these sites is to minimize your expected loss and maximize your expected win. as long as its not considered by law to be cheating, any potential play in your favor should be exploited. the question of whether or not it is ethical is a variable that should not be considered into this equation.
April 27th, 2012 at 2:43:38 PM
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Quote: rudeboyoino. there is only one answer and i provided that answer. the whole goal of these sites is to minimize your expected loss and maximize your expected win. as long as its not considered by law to be cheating, any potential play in your favor should be exploited. the question of whether or not it is ethical is a variable that should not be considered into this equation.
EXCELLENT!
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
April 27th, 2012 at 3:11:20 PM
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Quote: rudeboyoino. there is only one answer and i provided that answer. the whole goal of these sites is to minimize your expected loss and maximize your expected win. as long as its not considered by law to be cheating, any potential play in your favor should be exploited. the question of whether or not it is ethical is a variable that should not be considered into this equation.
Why do you draw the line at what is not considered cheating by law?
April 27th, 2012 at 5:16:57 PM
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Fuck this morality and honesty bullshit. (Excuse my French). People do what is best for them. The most "honest" and "moral" people in New York went on a looting rampage when the lights went out in '77. These were the same people who would correct a cashier's error in their favor. When there's no repercussion, people simply don't care. So, of course they will correct dealer errors in the house's favor and let ones in their favor go by. If they don't, they have determined that the social and personal benefit they gain is greater than the money, whether it makes them feel "good" or "proper." Of course a casino dealer and game developer will want to protect his livelihood (the benefit to him is greater by correcting), which is why PGD is the only one who votes "no" in these polls.
"There's an absolute morality? Maybe. And then what? If you think there is, go ahead, be that thing. Bad people go to hell? I don't think so. If you think that, act that way." -Ricky Roma, Glengarry Glen Ross.
"There's an absolute morality? Maybe. And then what? If you think there is, go ahead, be that thing. Bad people go to hell? I don't think so. If you think that, act that way." -Ricky Roma, Glengarry Glen Ross.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
