gambler
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:25:18 PM permalink
When someone gets caught counting cards and gets asked to leave, are they 86'd from the casino or just from the blackjack tables?

For example, will the casino allow that same player to move over to the roulette or craps table?

What happens if a player also has a room at that same casino/hotel? Are they asked to leave?
PopCan
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:43:23 PM permalink
Depends on the casino. There are three options:

-Allow the player to play blackjack but they must flat bet at all times.

-Allow the player to play any game other than blackjack.

-Trespass the player from casino; they can no longer enter the casino.

Of the three I'd say trespassing is a bit more likely but barring the player from blackjack is common. If they're trespassed, yes they'll probably be asked to checkout of the hotel but it's a case-by-case basis. They may just be banned from playing in the casino. Obviously if they're not trespassed they're free to stay in the hotel.
DJTeddyBear
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March 6th, 2012 at 1:53:23 PM permalink
I agree with PopCan, and will expand upon his initial answer:

It depends upon the casino, but it also depends upon the curcumstances, how the player was acting and behaving, both before and after being barred, as well as what the casino manager's mood is. Hell, things may go better if he got laid recently.....
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
charlie21
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March 24th, 2012 at 10:33:37 PM permalink
There are numerouse ways the casino can deal with card counters. 86 is the most extreme, and is a last resort.



I've been 86'd and backroomed. But here are other actions that have effectively thwarted me, some are more polite than others.


1. Backoff -- excuse me sir, can I have a word with you....you're welcome to play any other game except blackjack

2. Flat bet -- excuse me sir, we've determined your counting cards. You can place bets at the beginning of the shoe but you can't increase or decrease them thereafter.

3. Half shoe -- only a few cards from the shoe are dealt out, and thus one loses the advantage of counting

4. Shuffle up -- dealer shuffles early and thus thwarts the ability to gain advantage through card counting

5. heat and intimidation - mean unwelcoming looks, sometime when playing anonymously, they'll call you out by name since your photo was faxed to them from another casino. Sometimes they'll let you hear them talk about you as a counter, etc.


Some will return to a property they've been 86'd from and then might get fined or put in jail. I've never gone that far.
LarDog7777
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June 20th, 2016 at 1:18:54 PM permalink
I was banned from blackjack at Valley View casino by those very words this weekend..."excuse me sir, can I have a word with you....you're welcome to play any other game except blackjack"... I was not nor never have cheated or counted cards... I'm a premium card holder there and play one or two times a week on the $25-$1000 double-deck tables... Usually always start off with $500 in chips... Maybe put $1000 or $2000 into table... My basic bet is usually $50... On a good night leave with maybe $2000-$4000... Get along well with the dealers, pit bosses and other players.... If you add it all up I may be ahead $10,000 there so far this year.... I was told my blackjack play was "too strong for Valley View"... I don't get it.... Frequently sit beside other players with similar betting, etc. habits... Time to find another casino?....
RS
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June 20th, 2016 at 1:47:39 PM permalink
Quote: LarDog7777

I was banned from blackjack at Valley View casino by those very words this weekend..."excuse me sir, can I have a word with you....you're welcome to play any other game except blackjack"... I was not nor never have cheated or counted cards... I'm a premium card holder there and play one or two times a week on the $25-$1000 double-deck tables... Usually always start off with $500 in chips... Maybe put $1000 or $2000 into table... My basic bet is usually $50... On a good night leave with maybe $2000-$4000... Get along well with the dealers, pit bosses and other players.... If you add it all up I may be ahead $10,000 there so far this year.... I was told my blackjack play was "too strong for Valley View"... I don't get it.... Frequently sit beside other players with similar betting, etc. habits... Time to find another casino?....



I've heard of other cases where VV has kicked out players who've won too much, even if they're just getting lucky. One guy said he hit 2 $5 royals (or maybe $10 royals?) within a semi-short period of time and was 86'd.
TwoFeathersATL
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June 20th, 2016 at 3:39:25 PM permalink
Quote: PopCan

Depends on the casino. There are three options:

-Allow the player to play blackjack but they must flat bet at all times.

-Allow the player to play any game other than blackjack.

-Trespass the player from casino; they can no longer enter the casino.

Of the three I'd say trespassing is a bit more likely but barring the player from blackjack is common. If they're trespassed, yes they'll probably be asked to checkout of the hotel but it's a case-by-case basis. They may just be banned from playing in the casino. Obviously if they're not trespassed they're free to stay in the hotel.

PopCan! Damnation, where the hell you been? I thought you died or 'sumptin. And then Charlie21 responds. I'm almost speechless. Both of you should help me out more often, I need all the help I can get ;-!
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
DeMango
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June 20th, 2016 at 6:38:54 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Both of you should help me out more often, I need all the help I can get ;-!



Try to read the date of their posts.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
TwoFeathersATL
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June 21st, 2016 at 3:49:41 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Try to read the date of their posts.

Yep missed that. Told you I needed help ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
odiousgambit
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June 21st, 2016 at 6:01:39 AM permalink
Quote: LarDog7777

I was banned from blackjack at Valley View casino by those very words this weekend..."excuse me sir, can I have a word with you....you're welcome to play any other game except blackjack"... I was not nor never have cheated or counted cards... I'm a premium card holder there and play one or two times a week on the $25-$1000 double-deck tables... Usually always start off with $500 in chips... Maybe put $1000 or $2000 into table... My basic bet is usually $50... On a good night leave with maybe $2000-$4000... Get along well with the dealers, pit bosses and other players.... If you add it all up I may be ahead $10,000 there so far this year.... I was told my blackjack play was "too strong for Valley View"... I don't get it.... Frequently sit beside other players with similar betting, etc. habits... Time to find another casino?....



I can believe some places aren't sophisticated enough to figure out who the card counters are and just toss out people who greatly increase their bets at times and who have been winning.

It's such a basic principle with casinos to keep winners around so they can lose that money back, though, that if it is in other types of games where AP is not likely to be suspected, or not games where a low HE can be played against comps, well, I discount those "booting the winners" type stories.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AxelWolf
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June 21st, 2016 at 7:17:00 AM permalink
Quote: LarDog7777

I was banned from blackjack at Valley View casino by those very words this weekend..."excuse me sir, can I have a word with you....you're welcome to play any other game except blackjack"... I was not nor never have cheated or counted cards... I'm a premium card holder there and play one or two times a week on the $25-$1000 double-deck tables... Usually always start off with $500 in chips... Maybe put $1000 or $2000 into table... My basic bet is usually $50... On a good night leave with maybe $2000-$4000... Get along well with the dealers, pit bosses and other players.... If you add it all up I may be ahead $10,000 there so far this year.... I was told my blackjack play was "too strong for Valley View"... I don't get it.... Frequently sit beside other players with similar betting, etc. habits... Time to find another casino?....

If you're not a card counter you and your play is valuable to any casino. Don't even think about that place twice (It's too friggen crowded there anyways). Take your premium card with you, go to a different casino and talk to a host. Just tell him you're looking for a new casino because of poor service.

Use up all your comps at VV and never return. Treat it like bad service at any business

It's possible your big bets just happen to fall in line with a high count.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MrV
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June 21st, 2016 at 7:47:47 AM permalink
I wonder why it is that some casinos seem to "sweat the money" more than others?
"What, me worry?"
RS
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June 21st, 2016 at 7:48:21 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I wonder why it is that some casinos seem to "sweat the money" more than others?



I believe it comes from (likely uneducated IMO) upper management. Some casinos track the drop* while others don't. I believe the ones that don't track the drop are less sweaty, on average. I think they're less sweaty because the PB doesn't know how much is in the drop. But, he'll probably have a good idea if the table is getting killed or if they're making a killing.

I don't know how bosses are treated at different places, but I imagine at the sweaty casinos they are rated on how their pit has done recently (how much they won/lost)...whereas the not-so-sweaty casinos don't review or rate their bosses based on how their pits have done. It could mean a bonus (but I really don't know)...or if they "perform poorly" (lose money / not win as much as expected), then they get their schedule switched and end up on a non-desirable shift. But, some prefer the non desirable shift (grave or swing usually)....so they may not really care. But I think day shift is typically sweatier than grave/swing.

When buying in for cash at a blackjack table, the dealer may move a red chip from their normal part of the rack to their far left, which signifies a $100 buy-in. A $1 chip signifies a $20 buy in. A green chip signifies $500. Sometimes they use lammers, like in craps.

In craps, the boxman will use lammers (which are used when someone asks for credit) and tracks the total amount of cash in the drop box.

The casino knows how much $ in chips the table started at when it opened the table. Later on, they can count the chips in the dealer's tray plus the $ in the drop box (by counting the lammers in craps for example) to determine how much the table is winning or losing.
Romes
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:28:58 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I wonder why it is that some casinos seem to "sweat the money" more than others?

It's absolutely from uneducated/ignorant upper management. They also buy in to the hysteria from companies like Griffin who run around and say "YOUR CASINO WILL BURN DOWN TO COUNTERS!" They have no idea that 1% of people count, and of that 1% have a winning game, and of that they might be making $30/hour all while having enough variance to destroy their underfunded bankroll. Counters at less than black chip level should be erroneous to casinos, but they just don't understand the math. They watch movies like 21 and can't wait to "catch" a counter and kick him off their $5 table for his $5-$30 spread.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
RS
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:33:48 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

It's absolutely from uneducated/ignorant upper management. They also buy in to the hysteria from companies like Griffin who run around and say "YOUR CASINO WILL BURN DOWN TO COUNTERS!" They have no idea that 1% of people count, and of that 1% have a winning game, and of that they might be making $30/hour all while having enough variance to destroy their underfunded bankroll. Counters at less than black chip level should be erroneous to casinos, but they just don't understand the math. They watch movies like 21 and can't wait to "catch" a counter and kick him off their $5 table for his $5-$30 spread.



I once got backed off for a 1-3.6 spread on a $5 or $10 min game. Took like 10 minutes.....
Romes
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June 22nd, 2016 at 8:05:31 AM permalink
Sounds about right. I've got one of those that I'll briefly be sharing on gwae.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AxelWolf
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:43:24 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Sounds about right. I've got one of those that I'll briefly be sharing on gwae.

What are you talking about?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:49:30 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What are you talking about?



He's gonna be on gambling w/ an edge with BD & RWM.
Wizardofnothing
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June 22nd, 2016 at 8:35:21 PM permalink
Are you going on the customary dinner with bob dancer after?
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
AxelWolf
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June 23rd, 2016 at 1:29:04 AM permalink
Quote: RS

He's gonna be on gambling w/ an edge with BD & RWM.

WHY???

That's usually something people do near the end of their AP career or when they plan on doing a book or some self promoting venture. I find that a slippery slope into the dark side or a sell out. It's not an honor to accept, it's an honor to decline.

Explain the benefit, other than helping them to disseminate information and create fear in casinos, and help the show? IE AP's are running wild and making a living in casinos? Why is that a good message?

Sorry Rome's, as much I like and respect you, this sounds like an ego boost.(I know you dont care what I think). I just can't understand how it can help the AP community OR YOU(explain?). Honestly if i didn't think you(Romes) knew too much or you weren't a legitimate AP i wouldn't give a shi*t. But I feel you have much more potential, knowledge and ability, and you haven't even scratched the surface. There are uys currently writing books or whatever that i laugh at . I wouldn't laugh at a AP book from you.

Perhaps I should start thinking of myself and F*CK AP's and the community.

VERY DISAPPOINTED because it's HIM. Obviously I must be the dumb ass here, since everyone is writing a book, doing shows or going to the dark side.

A well known public gambling figure told me I should go on xxx and do xxx(have someone write that book for you, go on xx show, do xxx). I said, "NO.... that could mess up all AP(s) past and future, only I would benefit. He said......You shouldn't have any allegiance to the AP community old partners or whomever, they won't have any to you. Do what you got to do to make as much money and publicity as you can get for yourself. I rejected that and said it was not true.

Perhaps he was right?
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Jun 23, 2016
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RogerKint
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June 23rd, 2016 at 7:45:49 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

WHY???

That's usually something people do near the end of their AP career or when they plan on doing a book or some self promoting venture. I find that a slippery slope into the dark side or a sell out. It's not an honor to accept, it's an honor to decline.

Explain the benefit, other than helping them to disseminate information and create fear in casinos, and help the show? IE AP's are running wild and making a living in casinos? Why is that a good message?

Sorry Rome's, as much I like and respect you, this sounds like an ego boost.(I know you dont care what I think). I just can't understand how it can help the AP community OR YOU(explain?). Honestly if i didn't think you(Romes) knew too much or you weren't a legitimate AP i wouldn't give a shi*t. But I feel you have much more potential, knowledge and ability, and you haven't even scratched the surface. There are uys currently writing books or whatever that i laugh at . I wouldn't laugh at a AP book from you.

Perhaps I should start thinking of myself and F*CK AP's and the community.

VERY DISAPPOINTED because it's HIM. Obviously I must be the dumb ass here, since everyone is writing a book, doing shows or going to the dark side.

A well known public gambling figure told me I should go on xxx and do xxx(have someone write that book for you, go on xx show, do xxx). I said, "NO.... that could mess up all AP(s) past and future, only I would benefit. He said......You shouldn't have any allegiance to the AP community old partners or whomever, they won't have any to you. Do what you got to do to make as much money and publicity as you can get for yourself. I rejected that and said it was not true.

Perhaps he was right?



Nice guys finish last. Take the money and run, Romes. Watermelon Wednesdays!!!!
100% risk of ruin
Romes
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June 23rd, 2016 at 8:00:51 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

WHY???

Because I have fun stories from a decade of experience and nothing that would compromise myself as of today, plus it gives me a reason to go to Vegas? Meeting RM will be cool (Bob will be calling in) and it will be fun?

I was unaware I was "selling out" by talking about some past stories?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AxelWolf
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June 23rd, 2016 at 10:19:17 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quote: AxelWolf

WHY???

Because I have fun stories from a decade of experience and nothing that would compromise myself as of today, plus it gives me a reason to go to Vegas? Meeting RM will be cool (Bob will be calling in) and it will be fun?

I was unaware I was "selling out" by talking about some past stories?

I guess it sounded a bit harsh, so I apologize for that.

As always I'm not in favor of TMI being given out publicly, perhaps im over sensitive to that but for good reason. I have watched as the published information has grown due to the internet and the casinos have gotten smarter. AP deteriorates each day. Darksiders learn from AP's and use that information to close holes. The only real saving grace is that new casinos kept/keep opening up. Where the money keeps coming from I dont know (sounds like a good topic)

There's been others on the show who kept the information and numbers to a minimum yet they still had an interesting show, hopefully you'll do the same.

Godspeed.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Kickass
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June 23rd, 2016 at 12:04:34 PM permalink
LarDog7777, I was 86ed at Valley View too but the difference is that I did count cards. If you just enjoy playing Blackjack without counting, you can go to Pala. They give out good comps to the players in general.
Leave Katie alone. Rasul: Or what? Or I come back and break your F** legs
RogerKint
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June 28th, 2016 at 8:05:15 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quote: AxelWolf

WHY???

Because I have fun stories from a decade of experience and nothing that would compromise myself as of today, plus it gives me a reason to go to Vegas? Meeting RM will be cool (Bob will be calling in) and it will be fun?

I was unaware I was "selling out" by talking about some past stories?



So you were a stand up comedian as well as MMA fighter? Is your name actually Joe Rogan? Seriously though, great show! My favorite part was when you were you were playing the drunk rich kid at craps....playing the don't.

I vote Axel to be next. That would be a great show as well.
100% risk of ruin
Wizardofnothing
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June 28th, 2016 at 8:15:39 PM permalink
17-1 axel never does the show
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
LarDog7777
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June 30th, 2016 at 10:24:09 PM permalink
Appreciate your reply Odious because it seems very close to what happened... I play for 4 or 5 hours at a time and obviously, go home a loser sometimes... On a good night with several thousand ahead I can be found to bet heavily at the end... When it's time to go home if ahead a couple of thousand I will increase my bet to $500-table max... I go home on win or lose a few big ones... I think that was my downfall... Bet $50-100 all night... Bet $500-1000 right before going home....
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