MidwestAP
MidwestAP
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February 20th, 2012 at 6:44:01 PM permalink
I was recently playing Pai Gow Poker at Riverside Casino in Iowa. When it was my turn to be able to bank (their procedure is to alternate the Bank puck between each spot and the dealer, thus only allowing a player to bank on out of every 14 hands, yuck), I asked to do so and when the bets were settled, I discovered that they settle each bet individually with the bank (me) as they are won or lost, rather than the normal procedure of aggregating the net win or loss of the banker and then just charging the vig on a net win!

Obviously the implication is that I was getting charged a vig even in situations when I had a net loss. Needless to say I protested, the dealer seemed lost, as did all four supervisors who were eventually involved in the ruling. In the end, citing 'procedures' they said the way they were settling the bets was correct, and I can take it or leave it. One of the cockier supervisors told me that he has worked in 5 states and I was absolutely in the wrong, the way I was describing just doesn't exist (implying he's seen it all and how can a simple patron be correct). I didn't back down from my arguement but to no avail.

Since I've seen this shady method applied before at another mid-western casino, I know it exists. But, since Riverside had previously settled bets in the correct fashion, and because of the uttter look of confusion from the dealer and four supervisors, I have questions about what their procedure even are? How a player can get a copy of a casino's 'procedures' that they so often like to quote.

Any help is appreciated.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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February 20th, 2012 at 6:51:46 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP


Since I've seen this shady method applied before at another mid-western casino, I know it exists. But, since Riverside had previously settled bets in the correct fashion, and because of the uttter look of confusion from the dealer and four supervisors, I have questions about what their procedure even are? How a player can get a copy of a casino's 'procedures' that they so often like to quote.

Any help is appreciated.



You are in luck. ALL Iowa casinos are required not only to provide rules for every game, but there should have been clear signs in the pit stating that they provide rules for all the games. You should have, at the time, stopped the game, and asked to speak to an IGC official. They can come and give the official ruling.

By the way, Horseshoe casino in Council Bluffs allows banking (as does Harrah's) and they collect and pay for the net. The way Riverside did it, they charged a double commission, which has been explicitly challenged in Iowa (I believe a case against Isle of Capri Bettendorf). They were in the wrong, and I think you should still challenge it.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Triplell
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February 20th, 2012 at 7:21:12 PM permalink
I believe Ameristar also charges on the net. I haven't been there in a while, but last time I was there, they had commission free pai gow, which was really cool.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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February 20th, 2012 at 7:24:03 PM permalink
Quote: Triplell

I believe Ameristar also charges on the net. I haven't been there in a while, but last time I was there, they had commission free pai gow, which was really cool.



Ameristar CB has not allowed banking for YEARS... they used to a LONG time ago. Instead, they allow people to play two hand for $25 each, as opposed to Horseshoe and Harrah's $50 mins
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
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February 20th, 2012 at 7:52:19 PM permalink
Thanks for the info, I just sent an email to the IRGC, we'll see how they reply.
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
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February 22nd, 2012 at 4:51:52 PM permalink
Just to update those that may have a similar issue in an Iowa casino and/or are playing PGP at Riverside Casino in Riverside, IA. Based on the prior suggestion, I contacted the Iowa Racing and Gaming Commission (IRGC) and my email was re-directed to the field agent located at the Riverside Casino. He verified that:

"IRGC has a rule, 11.4(4) that states---- The public shall have access to the rules of play, payout schedules, and permitted wagering amounts. Signage shall be conspicuously posted on the gaming floor to direct patrons to the gaming floor area where this information can be viewed. All participants in all licensed gambling games are required to know and follow the rules of play. No forms of cheating shall be permitted.

At Riverside Casino, they have signage posted in their table games area, specifically on their 'pit podiums', that state “Rules of the Game are available upon request”. So all you need to do is ask a table games supervisor for a copy of the Pai Gow rules. If after your request, they refuse to provide you with this information, then please get their name and forward this information to IRGC so we make take appropriate disciplinary action."

Additionally he verfied that an IRGC field officer can be called upon by any member of the public during their normal working hours (usually weekday, daytime hours), or a voice message or email can be sent to them.

So, in regards to the procedure dispute that promted me to contact the IRGC in the first place, the field officer emailed me a pdf of the written procedures.

After several back and forth messages, we agreed that the procedures were at best confusing and inconsistent with each other. For instance it CLEARLY states that 'Commissions are collected from Player Bankers on their net win'. Yet the way the procedures were written regarding the mechanics of the dealer settling hands and bets when there is a Player/Banker, make it difficult if not impossible to acheive the goal of charging commisions to the player/banker only on the net win.

He indicated he would meet with the Director of Table Games and have the procedures re-written. I drafted language that could be used (following normal/standard player/banker settlement practices that are commonly used in the industry) if they so desire. My concern is that I don't want them to abandon the player/banker option altogether, as some casinos have done, I only want them to administer the payout in the correct manner.

I commend the IRGC for their very quick and professional response.
WongBo
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February 22nd, 2012 at 4:57:50 PM permalink
Don't be surprised if the eliminate the player/banker rule. The casinos all hate it.
It slows down the game and cuts into their edge.
I'm sure they would like to get it out of pai gow tiles as well,
but that's more unlikely as they all compete for the Chinese players.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
DJTeddyBear
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February 22nd, 2012 at 5:42:14 PM permalink
Congratulations on the progress you have made so far.


Quote: MidwestAP

Additionally he verfied that an IRGC field officer can be called upon by any member of the public during their normal working hours (usually weekday, daytime hours), or a voice message or email can be sent to them.

"normal working hours" ?

Unless I'm mistaken, in AC, there's a Casino Control Commission person on each casino floor, 24/7.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
thomasgrayson
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February 22nd, 2012 at 6:27:04 PM permalink
This is an interesting thing to read about this one. I just hope that things would work out well in the long run for this happening. Thanks for the posts here about casino procedures.
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
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February 22nd, 2012 at 6:48:22 PM permalink
Thanks, the next time I go back (which won't be for a while, Iowa casino's are notoriously tight with their rules and VP pay scales), you can be sure that I'll ask for a copy of their procedures to see what changes they've made.

As far as the hours they have a field agent available, I was also under the impression that one needed to be present 24/7, and when Iowa first legislated in casino gaming to riverboats back in 1989, my memory tells me that it was 24/7.

But, the exact language I received in the message was "IRGC has field agents stationed at each casino in Iowa (except Native American casinos). The majority of us work Monday –Friday from 8:00am -4:30pm. If the public would like to speak with one of us during our working hours, please ask a casino employee (tables, slots, security, etc) and them or yourself will call our extension and we can meet you somewhere on the gaming floor. If something occurs outside of our normal working hours, please call us and leave a message, or drop us an e-mail."
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
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September 7th, 2012 at 12:15:54 PM permalink
Updating this thread that was started last winter.

Just last weekend I went back down to Riverside casino and played PGP. When it was my turn I asked to bank, and when it came time to settle the bets, they again started to settle them incorrectly (see the prior posts for the specifics). I stopped the game and a supervisor was called, who made reference to some new procedures, but wasn't clear on what they were. Finally, the shift manager was called and he proceeded to correctly lead the dealer through the rest of the hand.

So, I'm glad the changes were put into the procedures, but they are only as good as their ability to be followed. There was some discussion about the procedure changes discussed at a pre-shift meeting, but apparently this went right over some people's heads.
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2012 at 12:25:28 PM permalink
I tip my virtual hat to you MidwestAP! Thank you for sticking up for the players.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2012 at 12:26:00 PM permalink
There is always some trouble maker trying to make a casino abide by it's own rules.
WELL DONE, SIR!
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