Cruise Ship Tips Over

Oh well, so much for talking my wife into
taking a cruise. This cruise ship ended up
on its side after it ran aground off Italy.
My wife is terrified of boats and I almost
had her talked into a cruise this spring.
She'll never go now.

Wow, unbelievable that something like this could
happen with all the high tech equipment available.
Hopefully the death toll remains low...

My wife and I are going to cruise the Med next; we did the inland passage already, and loved it.

The fact that this ship ran aground will not deter us, no more than a jet crashing would deter us from flying.

Captain arrested, but that is typical in Italy and does not indicate what would be termed Probable Cause under US law.

A long gash would admit a great deal of water and the lack of compartments would mean that it would slosh and severely impair lateral stability but it appears there was no attempt to counter flood on the port side once the list to starboard took place.

No mayday apparently. Proceeding into shallower waters may have been wise.

My initial thought was of course "What soccer match was being broadcast" when a well equipped cruise ship hit a reef that is well known and well marked in calm weather.

On-edit: Anyone notice that its lying on rocks and being kept from completely capsizing by those rocks ... see the lighthouse nearby?
What did someone do? Enter the GPS coordinates of the lighthouse in as the next waypoint?

My brother in law had a big sailboat on Lake MI
for 12 years that slept 6 and we never went on
it because 'people die on boats' according to my
wife. They also die falling down stairs, which is
the second highest cause of accidental deaths in
the US, behind cars wrecks. Yet she runs up and
down the stairs all day.

I have never cruised with the Costa line before. I understand that it is one of the lines that have been bought up by Carnival. My wife and I found an ad for a Costa cruise this spring at an amazing price -- 21 nights for something like $1,200 each including the taxes. An excellent set of ports, too, starting in Sao Paulo, Brazil and ending in Venice. Of course, there was a downside. It would cost a small fortune to get a plane ticket one-way to Brazil and one-way home from Italy. The cheapest option seemed to be to buy round-trip tickets for each route and throw the return tickets in the trash. That was still too pricy -- something like $3,000 each, just to get to a $1,200 cruise ship. Decided against it.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Wow, unbelievable that something like this could happen with all the high tech equipment available.

ON Jan 28, 2005 the USS San Francisco ran into a mountain range while running at 25 knots. Can you imagine how much equipment is on-board a submarine. Always room for human error.

I'm sure the tabloids had the straight dope long before any reporters even arrived on the scene.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Was that in the news at the time ? I don't recall hearing about it...

The original photos did not circulate until a while after the incident. Although it made the news, the Navy habitually downplays damage to vessels as much as possible. They are always repaired, regardless of the cost.

When the USS Tripoli was damaged by a mine in 1991, many people felt that it would be more cost effective to scrap the ship, but to do so would have been a political mistake.

Quote: pacomartin

When the USS Tripoli was damaged by a mine in 1991, many people felt that it would be more cost effective to scrap the ship, but to do so would have been a political mistake.

A warship is, very approximately, 100 million in hull and equipment, 200 million in engines and systems, 500 million in electronics and 200 million in getting it all to work together.

So it's rarely a good idea to scrap one, if she's not about to be decommissioned otherwise and nuclear power isn't involved. Ships are very repairable, all welded sheet metal, and repairs on Tripoli only cost four million.

San Francisco lost its very expensive sonar and a lot of equipment, but there was little damage to the pressure hull, which also made repairs practical.

Does anyone know what the water temperature was at the time of the incident off the Tuscan coast?

Quote: ten2win

Does anyone know what the water temperature was at the time of the incident off the Tuscan coast?

Approximately 60 degrees Fahrenheit, 15 Celsius.

Air temperature varies between mid-thirties and mid-fifties, Fahrenheit.

Some friends and parents of our nex-door neighbor were on that ship. First-hand account that the Captain (not sure if the harbor Captain or the boat Captain) abandoned ship before many passengers. This looks by relayed account to me that its a very serious violation of Nav. Rules and Reg.s

Anyone know who owns and Operates the boat/line?

Quote: 98Clubs

Some friends and parents of our nex-door neighbor were on that ship. First-hand account that the Captain (not sure if the harbor Captain or the boat Captain) abandoned ship before many passengers. This looks by relayed account to me that its a very serious violation of Nav. Rules and Reg.s
Anyone know who owns and Operates the boat/line?

The incident took place in Italian waters on an Italian flagged vessel and therefore only Italian law applies to the captain's conduct but you might be interested in knowing that no law requires the captain to be the last to leave a vessel and he is free to leave earlier. Many cruise captains have done so during emergencies, one Greek captain left in one of the first boats and the rescue was coordinated by an English band's guitar player.
The cruise line is Carnival cruise line when you peel back the various corporate entities.

I didn't read every post. In defense of the crew (not the captain) how are you suppose to lower rescue boats if......(we know that the boats are on BOTH sides of the ship).....one side of the ship ended up on its side QUITE FAST, so that side is kind of 'useless', IMO. The other side is upright, how do you lower anything while its upright?

Ken

Having worked in the cruise industry for 14 years as a Cruise Director I can tell you that there are procedures in place for any incident or emergency. One of my responsibilities was to coordinate the safe evacuation of the vessel through commands from the bridge. My staff was in charge of mustering passengers and on most ships they would be taken to a muster station somewhere inside the ship rather than directly to the life boat stations.

I don't know how long it took for this ship to be unable to lower lifeboats from one side but obviously in a situation like this there is a good chance that there won't be enough space in all lifeboats and life-rafts for all passengers and crew. SOLAS regulations state that crew should be sufficiently trained to have all of the lifeboats loaded in in the water within 30 minutes of the Captain's command. It's very possible that the ship was beyond a safe pitch in a very short period of time or that any order to lower the boats was made too late.

There are enough life-RAFTS on board the vessel to take 130% of all passengers and crew (outside of the capacity of the life-boats) and these will operate automatically should a vessel sink through what's called a hydrostatic release.

The Captain's first responsibility is to the safety of the souls on board and then to the safe-keeping of the vessel. As someone mentioned, about 15 or so years ago a Greek vessel (the Oceanus I believe) sank and the Captain AND officers were some of the first into the lifeboats leaving no trained officers to assist the guests. One of the entertainers (a musician with whom I've worked, Moss Hills) and some of the entertainment staff saved the lives of those remaining on board. He went to the bridge only to find out that no one was there and when he made a mayday call on the radio, no one would believe him at first. When he was asked for his position he said, "I'm a musician" and when they asked to speak to a senior officer he said, "There are none on board". True (and scary) story.

The Captains in both situations seems to have been derelict in their duties and I hope they find themselves in jail for a long, long time.

By the way, when entering or leaving coastal waters it is a local pilot who will guide the ship. The Captain has veto power over any directions the pilot makes but between the two of them, the navigation team, the maps and the radar and sonar equipment plus GPS, this sort of thing should never occur unless and VERY, VERY high seas.

Quote: TheNightfly

I don't know how long it took for this ship to be unable to lower lifeboats

The eyewitness accounts say the Italian crew was useless,
they had no idea what to do. Ever hear of a 'Chinese fire
drill'? It originated on ships, where the Brit officers would
try and instruct the Chinese crew on how to put out a fire.
It was usually comical chaos, with everybody running
around getting in each others way. That sounds like what
happened on the Italian boat.

Tonite's news indicates the "Black Box" has been recovered. Supposedly it contains recordings of instruments, voice, and time of occurrance (therefore a sequence of events can be obtained).

EDIT: The ship's Captain is currently residing in jail.

Lloyd's of London have tracking of all the ships it insures. The path taken by the ship deviates massively from the route taken last time :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16587849

Note that the ship is closer to land than you might expect in the pictures as it appears the captain was bringing it toward land after he hit the reef/rocks.

I've seen the cruise ships leave Victoria here quite close to land (but not that close). Hopefully I don't ever see a hulking mass sinking into the Juan de Fuca. I have this rubbernecker obsession with grounded boats...

The ship did not pitch, it rolled. Often severe listing makes lifeboats unlaunchable. One side's boats, if swung out, are well away from the ship. The other side's boats, if swung out, are scraping the side of the ship rather than descending cleanly into the water. Anyone launching a lifeboat is often unable to see what happens when it does reach the water.

The shipping of water can be dangerous if the area is uncompartmented or unbaffled. Sloshing water can induce a fatal list.

There was no pilot aboard.

The captain has admitted to "touristic navigation" which is his term for a major course deviation. It seems the ship steamed for 25 miles on a captain-selected course deviation which placed the vessel about fifteen miles closer to the rocks than normal. It seems no equipment sounded an alarm and no junior officers sounded an alarm either. With the vessel standing into danger for so long a time it seems that officers other than the captain should be held liable as well. Its like the cockpit of the plane, the co-pilots are not there to keep their yaps shut and inflate the captain's ego.

Is it customary to order Women and Children First at the muster stations? If so, do families actually separate at such times? I would think the confusion and milling about would only worsen.

An 11 day cruise on the same cruise line on a sister ship this Thursday is down to $769 per person (shared cabin). I would think you could easily eat and drink that much food per day.

Costa Serena is the same style ship as Costa Concordia

Cruise ship fares are all over the place, even without factoring in the disaster. Just the past couple of days, I have been looking at a 13 night cruise in April on Holland America (generally a more upscale line than Costa, though both are owned by Carnival). For those 13 nights I can get a veranda stateroom for $999 per person. Two weeks later, an inside cabin on a 7 night cruise on the same ship goes for $799 per person. I have given up on finding the logic in cruise fares and just look for the deals.

I saw this on CNN yesterday during my workout and got super scared... I have a few friends on a cruise right now!! They're on a Disney cruise. I was scared for a full straight minute until I realized that the caption would've said "Disney Cruise" instead of just "Cruise" (there is no sound on the tv there). If I remember correctly it said that there were 16 injured, 2 killed, and 2 Americans missing. :(

I didn't want to strike fear in my friend, her husband and her daughter who just started their week-long cruise just the day before so didn't think it was right to report to them what I saw on the news but just texted them and told them "Hope you guys are all well". I'm sure they found out but I bet Disney is doing all they can to try to get people to calm down right now on the ship. I bet Disney as well as all of the other cruiselines are pissed right now as their sales will drop.

I myself have never been on a cruise but would love to go someday (anyone want to go?). This crash has NOT made me not want to go since something like this is rare and happened pretty far away. I'm also assuming that because of this most cruiselines will have an updated and new refresher course that they will mandate for simulating an incident like this. Hopefully.

The ship's captain is in jail, awaiting charges of manslaughter, causing a shipwreck and abandoning his ship before all passengers were evacuated.

Amazingly, there is a recording of him being ordered by local authorities to return to his ship to coordinate the safe disembarkation of passengers, and him refusing to do so (he never did return).

Wow.

He's got to be the new poster child for COWARDICE.

We have been on 6 cruises (Norweigan 4x, Royal Carib 1x, and Disney 1x). This incident does not deter us from cruising again.

As terrible as these tragedies are, I don't understand the people that freak out when accidents like this happen. I, myself, have never been on a cruise before but have been looking at one for a while now. These freak accidents that are clearly due to operator error are not common and with a competent crew could (and should) be avoided entirely. Its not like we lack the technology to locate the dangers well in advance and from what I've seen, this captain is going to be facing a lot of problems.

As for other ships though, I see no correlation in this accident with their ability to safely pilot a cruise liner. I am happy to discover any lower fares that may result from this accident though I am saddened for the families who had to suffer through this ridiculous act of laziness on the part of the captain and crew.

Quote: duckmankilla

As terrible as these tragedies are, I don't understand the people that freak out when accidents like this happen.

Its still something that should not be happening and no one should be losing perspective about it. Its fairly rare for the event to take place and having it take place for such a stupid reason is even more rare.

"Often severe listing makes lifeboats unlaunchable. One side's boats, if swung out, are well away from the ship. The other side's boats, if swung out, are scraping the side of the ship rather than descending cleanly into the water" >>> BINGO, very correct. Like I said, I cant put ALOT of blame on the crew.

Ken

Quote: pacomartin

An 11 day cruise on the same cruise line on a sister ship this Thursday is down to $769 per person (shared cabin).

What was it a week ago?

Quote: Doc

For those 13 nights I can get a veranda stateroom for $999 per person. Two weeks later, an inside cabin on a 7 night cruise on the same ship goes for $799 per person.

That can't include unlimited booze. It may include some cheap wine at dinner. I've never been on a cruise. I've always preferred land.

No, cruise ships aren't operating on "all-inclusive" basis. Still includes food.
But such deals are not particularly rare, you can find cruises even cheaper.

In 2009, I've regularly seen offers go low as $21/day for inside cabin, with three meals included, and they weren't special promotions or "small print" deals. Obviously the destinations themselves would suck - it's usually a return trip after a series of proper quality cruises, and your 2-3 weeks would be spent sailing along US coast. Still, that's real cheap even for just a place to sleep and cooked meals to eat.

The crew is on a payroll anyway and supplies (food ingredients, cleaning chemicals, etc) are cheap enough to still make something. Cruise ship operators aren't picky about their profit margins, they'd rather make $1 per day from you than nothing at all.

As terribile as this is, it actually is encouraging my wide and me to look into booking something.

A) You just know that all cruise lines will be beefing up their disaster training.
B) Because people are freaking out, prices are dropping - temporarily.

Yeah, now (or in the next week or two) would probably be the ideal time to book a cruise.

Quote: pacomartin

That can't include unlimited booze. It may include some cheap wine at dinner.

P90 is quite correct that the usual cruise ship fares are not including your bar tab, and the on-ship beverages are not necessarily low-cost. There is typically a Captain's Reception or some other party or dinner at which champagne is no charge, but other than that, you run a tab to be paid at the end of the cruise along with other on-board purchases. (Most cruise lines have been doing the on-board account thing for 20 years or so rather than dealing in all-cash transactions.) I don't consume alcohol myself, so booze charges are not an issue for me.

Thirty or more years ago, I looked for the very lowest prices I could find for a cruise, but I no longer am willing to go for the minimal staterooms. I haven't seen (or looked for) the $21/day prices that P90 quoted, but I have seen very nice staterooms going for $75-$80 per person per day on certain sailings. The most popular routes can command much higher prices, and some cruise lines are always well out of my budget. The particular 13-night cruise I mentioned goes from Ft. Lauderdale to Rome. These re-positioning cruises often have lower per-day rates, in part (I think) because they are not recurring itineraries and do not warrant the same advertising as a routing (e.g., 7-days eastern Caribbean) where they can run one ad to cover six months of cruises. Instead of promoting a re-positioning cruise, they often just offer a lower per-day price. The down side, as I mentioned in a previous post, is that the airline fares to get to the starting point and home from the cruise destination can be high, since you are not buying round trip tickets. Sometimes the cruise line will have pre-negotiated air fares that help a bit, but not always.

I generally start by looking for fares <= $100 per person per day for the cruise itself with a stateroom I like, then look into the extras. The last three cruises my wife and I have taken (21-day Panama Canal in 2007, 14-day trans-Atlantic in 2008, and 11-day Southern Caribbean out of San Juan in 2009) had up-front charges of $315 to $390 per day for the two of us in a verandah stateroom, including the cruise, air fares, taxes and fees, and insurance. To that I would have to add shore excursions, on-board and on-shore purchases, and any casino expenses I might have. The Ft. Lauderdale to Rome cruise looks as if it would cost $270 to $340 per day for the up-front charges, depending upon whether we fly from/to our closest airport (Charlotte) or save $900 by driving to Florida (not counting what it costs to drive there). It seems like a pretty good deal to me, but if I sail to Rome I suspect I would feel some obligation to see that city for a couple of days before flying back, and in April I think those few days could cost me a few thousand bucks additional -- April hotel rates there seem to be about four times the January rates. Haven't decided on this yet, but the fact that a ship ran aground a few days ago is not a factor in the decision.

Was it Bob Dancer who said he won a cruise at a Vegas
casino and when they got to the boat they were both
charged $550 in taxes. So the 'free' cruise cost them $1100..
I would have been livid.

Those taxes are normally "taxes and fees" as they like to disguise their own fees as "Taxes" and not really their problem. One of the phoney things companies try. Drives me crazy.

Quote: mrjjj

"Often severe listing makes lifeboats unlaunchable. One side's boats, if swung out, are well away from the ship. The other side's boats, if swung out, are scraping the side of the ship rather than descending cleanly into the water" >>> BINGO, very correct. Like I said, I cant put ALOT of blame on the crew.Ken

While at one point the life boats may have been unavailable, there was an alternative method of abandoning ship available to the captain and crew: life rafts.

It is reported that enough life rafts were available for all.

The strangest thing about this is that although he was 15 miles closer to shore than he should have been, he apparently would have gotten away with it if only he had been about 800 feet further out.

Foolishly endangered his ship, ended his career and is probably headed for a cell for some time ... all to impress some crewmember!

Quote: MrV

While at one point the life boats may have been unavailable, there was an alternative method of abandoning ship available to the captain and crew: life rafts.
It is reported that enough life rafts were available for all.

Every passenger vessel on long voyages is required by transnational law, specifically SOLAS, to have enough lifeboat capacity for 75% of all people on board (100% recommended), plus life rafts for no less than 25% of people on board, or more if lifeboat capacity is less than recommended. A total of 125% is required, if this capacity is evenly distributed between both sides.

Generally the minimum will be provided, i.e. 75% in lifeboats and 50% in rafts.
BTW, the requirements for cargo vessels are much higher, 100% per side in lifeboats or 150% in rafts, for a total of 200% or 300%. But of course their crew is much smaller.

You going to explain that at night on a darkened vessel with a zillion jabbering Italians each one jabbering louder than the next one? You expect people to hear the term "raft" and say... oh great, let's do it. It will be so much fun. Even those who realized they were near shore would not be quite so ready to get into a raft in the dark.

You would generally have to, except skip the details.
A complete loading and launch of all lifeboats and raft, from abandon ship to craft on water, has to be performed in under 30 minutes, that is subject to testing, although not on each individual vessel.

Quote: FleaStiff

You going to explain that at night on a darkened vessel with a zillion jabbering Italians

Hey, Italians don't jabber, thats the French..

Quote: DJTeddyBear

As terrible as this is, it actually is encouraging my wife and me to look into booking something.

I think it is highly morale to look at deals after a disaster. No matter how you cut it, roughly 20 million Americans go on cruises every year. The reaction to a disaster, on a ship or an airplane is always out of proportion. People have jobs, and they have to eat so the industry must continue.

I figure that there are more people who will back out of a cruise, or not take one that they have been considering, than people who look for deals. So you might as well go now if you can.

The open-jaw airline tickets are a real expense. My parents got a "friends and family" cruise rate from my cousin who worked for a cruise line. But the incredibly cheap rate got lost in the cost of flying one way to Barcelona Spain and return from Venice Italy. The plane was about twice the price of the cruise.

Quote: pacomartin

The plane was about twice the price of the cruise.

My daughters friend went on her first and last
cruise a month ago. She said it was crowded,
boring, and all there was to do was eat half
a dozen times a day. She said it was mostly
older people and single women, all looking
to hook up with single men, and there weren't
any onboard. Like Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr
in that movie. As I reacall, they weren't single
either, they were both engaged.

Quote: EvenBob

She said it was mostly older people and ....

Yep. When my wife and I go on a cruise, we definitely fall into that category these days, though we started cruising when I was 30. Who you see depends a lot on the cruise line and the duration of the cruise. When the itinerary lasts two weeks or longer, you mostly have a passenger list of either retirees who don't have to rush back to a job or people senior enough that they have a lot of vacation time and the money to spend on it. If you go on a cruise of 7 days or less, there will still be a bunch of us geezers, but there will be a lot of young folks too. If you take a 4 night cruise on Carnival, there will be a mob of drunk 20-somethings. If you take a 4-night cruise on Carnival in June, you will likely encounter a high school graduation party with a mob of drunk 17-18 year olds and one never-around chaperone per 25 kids. A decent cruise agent should be able to describe the passenger population to be expected on most any cruise.

People are very different. Some people say what they want in a vacation is to have everything effortless. They don't want to make any significant decisions, and they don't want to struggle with luggage or strange customs.

For vacation once I went to a small village of the Tarahumara in the peaks of the Sierra Madres where there are no phones (one microwave phone for the village in case of extreme emergency), hardly any roads. and many people do not have shoes. They work on crafts that were developed in the 16th century to provide them a livelihood, and are oblivious to most of the industrial revolution. And we were not with some big tour group gawking away. We sat in a treehouse and visited with people and looked at their sculptures. They don't speak much Spanish, but rely on their pre-conquest languages. It's a little more difficult than sitting in a stateroom.

Quote: EvenBob

My daughters friend went on her first and last
cruise a month ago.

How old is she?

I'll base this on my one and only cruise:

There's not a lot on a cruise for the under 21 crowd. Most of the evening activities are OK for the under 21 crowd, but they take place in one of the many bars/lounges, which means you're either excluded, or need to be accompanied by the 'rants. What fun.

And, yeah, the primary group activity is eating.

I thought about going on a cruise once. Then I thought of about 1000 other things I would like to do other than go on a cruise.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

How old is she?

30, but she doesn't drink or gamble.