New Craps table rule. Would you play? - (See first post for rule.)
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20 members have voted
September 21st, 2011 at 12:38:39 PM
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Suppose a craps table had a rule that stated the Shooter gets to throw again when they make their desired outcome
In other words, if a Shooter is playing PL and they make a point, they shoot again (standard game we all play today.)
However, if the Shooter was playing the DP, and they made the point, their turn is over. The dice pass to the next shooter.
If the Shooter is playing the DP, and they 7 out, then they retain control of the dice, and get to throw again!
Would you play a table with this rule, and would it change the way you play ?
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Probably the major reason I don't play the DP very much is the fact that you don't get that 'hot' hand component. Sure, you can make money when everybody is going point, 7 out, but it is a different shooter every time. I have played on tables that were so cold, everyone was playing DP, and we were all rooting for the 7. It is the weirdest thing to see, but even when we were all winning, it still was not the same as one shooter making money for the table.
With this rule, you could get one shooter who presumably could keep going point, 7 out, and that would then give the DP that same feeling of a hot shooter. Hmmm, come to think of it, how would you classify a table where the same DP shooter keeps throwing 7 outs and winning. Would that be a 'Hot' table, or a 'Cold' table?
In other words, if a Shooter is playing PL and they make a point, they shoot again (standard game we all play today.)
However, if the Shooter was playing the DP, and they made the point, their turn is over. The dice pass to the next shooter.
If the Shooter is playing the DP, and they 7 out, then they retain control of the dice, and get to throw again!
Would you play a table with this rule, and would it change the way you play ?
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Probably the major reason I don't play the DP very much is the fact that you don't get that 'hot' hand component. Sure, you can make money when everybody is going point, 7 out, but it is a different shooter every time. I have played on tables that were so cold, everyone was playing DP, and we were all rooting for the 7. It is the weirdest thing to see, but even when we were all winning, it still was not the same as one shooter making money for the table.
With this rule, you could get one shooter who presumably could keep going point, 7 out, and that would then give the DP that same feeling of a hot shooter. Hmmm, come to think of it, how would you classify a table where the same DP shooter keeps throwing 7 outs and winning. Would that be a 'Hot' table, or a 'Cold' table?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 12:49:17 PM
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I voted "I would play the Pass anyway," but the reality is, I might be swayed to the dark side, depending on how it's working out, and how many DP shooters there are, etc.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 21st, 2011 at 1:04:25 PM
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Raleigh,
That's a real interesting proposition - DP shooters meeting with success against the point, AND getting to keep the dice.
I'm sure this was considered, perhaps even tried, in the earlier stages of craps.
Now, Dark side players would be holding onto the dice more often, mathematically. This is because:
1. Come-out naturals have no effect on dice passing, but -
2. After the point is established, the most common result is the Seven out, not making the point.
There is a "Do" side thrust or bias to the game, and DP shooters are considered a negative to most players.
Many DP players like to play alone or with other DP players, not only to avoid flak, but to keep the dice "in dard hands."
That's a real interesting proposition - DP shooters meeting with success against the point, AND getting to keep the dice.
I'm sure this was considered, perhaps even tried, in the earlier stages of craps.
Now, Dark side players would be holding onto the dice more often, mathematically. This is because:
1. Come-out naturals have no effect on dice passing, but -
2. After the point is established, the most common result is the Seven out, not making the point.
There is a "Do" side thrust or bias to the game, and DP shooters are considered a negative to most players.
Many DP players like to play alone or with other DP players, not only to avoid flak, but to keep the dice "in dard hands."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:13:32 PM
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I think it would tip the scale for me and I would stay dark side.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 21st, 2011 at 1:15:24 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanRaleigh,
That's a real interesting proposition - DP shooters meeting with success against the point, AND getting to keep the dice.
I'm sure this was considered, perhaps even tried, in the earlier stages of craps.
Now, Dark side players would be holding onto the dice more often, mathematically. This is because:
1. Come-out naturals have no effect on dice passing, but -
2. After the point is established, the most common result is the Seven out, not making the point.
There is a "Do" side thrust or bias to the game, and DP shooters are considered a negative to most players.
Many DP players like to play alone or with other DP players, not only to avoid flak, but to keep the dice "in dard hands."
Dan,
I have to wonder if it ever was tried though. It is my understanding that the whole DP concept came into the game later on. The original game, resembled the ones in the alley, where it was all right side biased. The house took the side of the 7, and the player(s) took the point.
Next time I am in Vegas, I would definitely make it a point to hit a casino that had this as a rule at a craps table. Perhaps it may be your house ????? ;-)
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:33:16 PM
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Just find an empty table and play the DP...every 7-out winner, you just keep shooting because you're the only person there!
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34:15 PM
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What happens when the shooter bets "dooey-don't" and puts bets on both pass and don't pass coming out? This shooter may never give up the dice.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 21st, 2011 at 1:38:42 PM
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Actually, the game of craps (layout) was standardized with don't pass/don't come, place and lay bets, and the field bet around WWI by the efforts of a John H. Winn. There is an account of the game and of Winn's work in John Scarne's tome "New Complete Guide to Gambling." Photos of John H. Winn as a old man discussing dice with John Scarne are in it.
And we, like all other gambling halls and casinos, pass the dice to the next shooter on a 7-out. Only a consensus of "same shooter requested" leading back to the same shooter can be made to have the same shooter shoot, - very rare for DP player to keep the dice!
And we, like all other gambling halls and casinos, pass the dice to the next shooter on a 7-out. Only a consensus of "same shooter requested" leading back to the same shooter can be made to have the same shooter shoot, - very rare for DP player to keep the dice!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:39:48 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaWhat happens when the shooter bets "dooey-don't" and puts bets on both pass and don't pass coming out? This shooter may never give up the dice.
He has to if he sevens out, unless he is alone at the table. Seven out always means "next shooter."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:44:43 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDJust find an empty table and play the DP...every 7-out winner, you just keep shooting because you're the only person there!
I love playing on a table by myself! The problem is, I win (PL) when I do, AND as soon as I start winning, everyone else starts piling in, and it turns to SHIT. :-)
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:45:08 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanSeven out always means "next shooter."
Not in your hypothetical scenario though. A DP player continues his roll upon a 7-out. But if he bets the doey-dont, who's to say which is his desired outcome?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:45:41 PM
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That is an apt way of putting it, either dealing or playing!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:49:51 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaWhat happens when the shooter bets "dooey-don't" and puts bets on both pass and don't pass coming out? This shooter may never give up the dice.
aye aye. Good point. Guess the rule would be a doey don't shooter is positioned on the side they take the odds on. So if they lay odds, they are voting for 7. If they pull their lay bet off the 6 or 8 for example, then they have implicitly chosen the RIGHT side of the bet. To keep the dice when they 7 out, they must be on the DP only, or the DP with odds and not have odds on the PL bet.
Speaking of.... If the shooter is rolling from the DP, and the point is 6 / 8, does the shooter have the option of picking up their bet? I know they can if they are not the shooter, but since the shooter HAS to have a PL / DP bet down in order to throw, are they required to leave their DP in play ?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 2:02:24 PM
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Quote: jc2286Not in your hypothetical scenario though. A DP player continues his roll upon a 7-out. But if he bets the doey-dont, who's to say which is his desired outcome?
In this hypothetical scenario, this is a little bit of a quandary.
Total amount of right-side action versus dark side?
Does he lay or take larger odds on his line bets (two of them)?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 2:05:38 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsSpeaking of.... If the shooter is rolling from the DP, and the point is 6 / 8, does the shooter have the option of picking up their bet? I know they can if they are not the shooter, but since the shooter HAS to have a PL / DP bet down in order to throw, are they required to leave their DP in play ?
Rules on this:
1. Pass Line is a contract bet once the point is established. You cannot take it down, or move it down onto the pass line "cut line" to make it now a place-the-point bet.
2. Don't pass bets are removeable at any time (except when the dice are in the air or landing to be called.)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 2:07:24 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanIn this hypothetical scenario, this is a little bit of a quandary.
Total amount of right-side action versus dark side?
Does he lay or take larger odds on his line bets (two of them)?
It should be total amount bet on the PL vs total amount bet on DP.
You can't count Right side, as Place 6/8 should not count in determining whether the shooter achieved their objective.
I have seen a few doey dont's, but I have NEVER seen one take outs on both bets! Generally, they take PL Odds on the 6/8 points and Will Lay odds on the 4/5/9/10 points.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 2:20:33 PM
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I quite often play the Don't if on my own - usually try to make three points and then aim to miss. The only problem playing on your own is they insist on changing dice whereas when you make your point (and lose) they hand the same ones back. Obviously it's fun when you actually miss all three points, and not so fun when you have a "good" roll and keep making come/pass points.
When I did this a few years ago, many casinos [UK] hadn't seen Don't Come bets and it needed the inspector to remind the dealers on the weird rules (odds work etc).
When I did this a few years ago, many casinos [UK] hadn't seen Don't Come bets and it needed the inspector to remind the dealers on the weird rules (odds work etc).
September 21st, 2011 at 2:30:39 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanRules on this:
1. Pass Line is a contract bet once the point is established. You cannot take it down, or move it down onto the pass line "cut line" to make it now a place-the-point bet.
2. Don't pass bets are removeable at any time (except when the dice are in the air or landing to be called.)
But, does this apply to the shooter who is throwing from the DP line?
If the shooter puts down a $10 DP bet, and establishes a point of 6, can he pick up his only bet that was in play (the DP) and continue to roll? I highly doubt it.
Or, does the house allow the DP to get picked up, but then force the shooter to put a $10 bet on the PL to now have the 6 as his point? That would be a horrible play for the dumb shooter then, as they survived the 1:2 comeout roll, only to put down a bet on the PL and forgo the 2:1 comeout advantage....
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 3:21:48 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsI have seen a few doey dont's, but I have NEVER seen one take outs on both bets! Generally, they take PL Odds on the 6/8 points and Will Lay odds on the 4/5/9/10 points.
I play the doey-dont and I take max odds on both sides (with a partner of course; so we both get max comp rating)
Assuming $10 loss per hour (aces rolls one out of every 36 come out rolls), we GET $10 an hour in comp!
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
September 21st, 2011 at 4:54:57 PM
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I know it's one of those mental illusions gamblers have but I seem to make points when I am shooting and playing the DP. Murphys Law
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
September 21st, 2011 at 6:14:18 PM
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Quote: charliepatrickI quite often play the Don't if on my own - usually try to make three points and then aim to miss. The only problem playing on your own is they insist on changing dice whereas when you make your point (and lose) they hand the same ones back.
You can request the same dice on a seven-out if you have the dice next as the only shooter at the table. We have one player ("Kerosene") who when playing alone, requests the same dice on a seven-out, with dice that were otherwise fairly "hot." We dump the bowl off to the side (showing the seven-out) and push out the same two dice he was playing with.
Quote: charliepatrickWhen I did this a few years ago, many casinos [UK] hadn't seen Don't Come bets and it needed the inspector to remind the dealers on the weird rules (odds work etc).
Don't Come "point" lay odds always work by default including the come-out, but can be taken down. The flat bets can be brought down, too, like a don't pass bet. Seldom done, as seven is most common. DC (or don't come) bets are relatively rare crap game action.
Quote: RaleighCrapsBut, does this apply [taking down a don't pass bet] to the shooter who is throwing from the DP line?
If the shooter puts down a $10 DP bet, and establishes a point of 6, can he pick up his only bet that was in play (the DP) and continue to roll? I highly doubt it.
He can actually take down his don't pass line bet by moving it to the pass line if he is shooting, (and not as a "place the point" type pass line bet, as that's really a place bet) - but from that point on his new pass line has to stay until a pass line decision occurs.
If the shooter takes down his don't pass bet, and does not put up a line bet, he then has to stop shooting, and this forces the dice to go to the next shooter.
If he's alone at the table, the game has to stop with no line bet of any sort. Shooter is essentially saying "I'm finished playing."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 21st, 2011 at 6:47:23 PM
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Well you know if all the players at the BJ table refuse to cut the cards, the dealer has to.
Damn, which they has a similar rule at the dice table. " Roll them bones, DAN " LOL
Damn, which they has a similar rule at the dice table. " Roll them bones, DAN " LOL
September 21st, 2011 at 7:22:50 PM
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Try these rules on for size:
1 - A shooter playing the Doey-Dont is considered to be on the side with the larger bet. If these bets are the same size, the shooter is considered a Don't Pass shooter.
2 - If the shooter is playing the Don't, the dealers will place the puck on the point oriented so it says "No".
3 - A shooter must have a line bet. If the shooter chooses to remove a Don't Pass, he must have a Pass Line bet, or establish one. When this happens, dealers will spin the puck to say "On". The stick will make sure all players are aware of the change, and have a chance to take their Don't bets down as well.
4 - The shooter chances when there is a 7-out with the puck saying "On" or with a point make and the puck saying "No".
5 - A Don't shooter will not be required to change dice after a 7-out.
6 - A shooter *may* be required to select new dice if either die falls on the floor (as per normal boxman decision).
Note regarding Rule 1: I ignore the value of the odds since they can be changed at will. Along that line of thinking, I almost said the shooter is considered on the Pass since the Don't can be removed, etc. Except the whole point of these new rules is to be inviting to the Don't player.
Note regarding Rule 2: I got that from a post here some months ago. The poster was alone at the table, shooting from the Don't, and the dealer set the puck to say "No". I remember little details like that.
1 - A shooter playing the Doey-Dont is considered to be on the side with the larger bet. If these bets are the same size, the shooter is considered a Don't Pass shooter.
2 - If the shooter is playing the Don't, the dealers will place the puck on the point oriented so it says "No".
3 - A shooter must have a line bet. If the shooter chooses to remove a Don't Pass, he must have a Pass Line bet, or establish one. When this happens, dealers will spin the puck to say "On". The stick will make sure all players are aware of the change, and have a chance to take their Don't bets down as well.
4 - The shooter chances when there is a 7-out with the puck saying "On" or with a point make and the puck saying "No".
5 - A Don't shooter will not be required to change dice after a 7-out.
6 - A shooter *may* be required to select new dice if either die falls on the floor (as per normal boxman decision).
Note regarding Rule 1: I ignore the value of the odds since they can be changed at will. Along that line of thinking, I almost said the shooter is considered on the Pass since the Don't can be removed, etc. Except the whole point of these new rules is to be inviting to the Don't player.
Note regarding Rule 2: I got that from a post here some months ago. The poster was alone at the table, shooting from the Don't, and the dealer set the puck to say "No". I remember little details like that.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 21st, 2011 at 7:38:45 PM
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Looks like DJ's rules have most, if not all, of it covered.
I can still see an issue with a demented, or disgruntled, doey don't player. Bets $25 on doey don't, takes no odds on either, and then place bets 6 & 8. He then continues to roll, always claiming he made his desired outcome.
Perhaps a Doey Don't should always be presumed to be on the PL side, unless they have odds only on the DP bet, in which case they will retain the dice upon a 7 out. If they took their odds off the DP bet before they 7 out, then they have lost the dice. (Definitely need an easier solution to this, as this would be one giant PITA, which negates what we are trying to achieve...)
Interesting that the overwhelming majority of voters for the first 13 votes say they would like to play DP with this as an option...............
I can still see an issue with a demented, or disgruntled, doey don't player. Bets $25 on doey don't, takes no odds on either, and then place bets 6 & 8. He then continues to roll, always claiming he made his desired outcome.
Perhaps a Doey Don't should always be presumed to be on the PL side, unless they have odds only on the DP bet, in which case they will retain the dice upon a 7 out. If they took their odds off the DP bet before they 7 out, then they have lost the dice. (Definitely need an easier solution to this, as this would be one giant PITA, which negates what we are trying to achieve...)
Interesting that the overwhelming majority of voters for the first 13 votes say they would like to play DP with this as an option...............
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2011 at 7:44:19 PM
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Doey Don't strategy confounds me. I don't understand why those types of guys don't just bet the don't then move it to the pass if it's 6 or 8.
Like I said, I want it to be inviting to the concept and to Don't players, but would suggest that my Rule 1 to be "house rule".
Like I said, I want it to be inviting to the concept and to Don't players, but would suggest that my Rule 1 to be "house rule".
Let me rind you that I was the guy that said I'd play the pass, but then immediately started to back-pedal and reconsider.Quote: RaleighCrapsInteresting that the overwhelming majority of voters for the first 13 votes say they would like to play DP with this as an option...............
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 21st, 2011 at 8:07:48 PM
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Why would this make any difference? The dice are still random (in theory).
"Bite my Glorious Golden Ass!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
September 21st, 2011 at 8:20:30 PM
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Oh No RUN Here come the dice setters.
September 22nd, 2011 at 2:21:47 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear6 - A shooter *may* be required to select new dice if either die falls on the floor (as per normal boxman decision).
A player can always request "same dice" if a die goes off the table, - the player's call; a boxman's decision to mandate that a player throw new or different dice will almost certainly start an argument or altercation. If a crap player can't keep the dice on the table, the boxman can take the dice away from the shooter and force a new shooter, also virtually guaranteeing some bickering. Crap players honestly and generally think they run the game, they can do what they want, and that they can override the calls of the stickman and the decisions of the supervisor. Uncanny and galling. These people are not Pai Gow players....
Quote: RaleighCrapsI can still see an issue with a demented, or disgruntled, doey don't player.
I can see issues with demented, disgruntled, and argumentative crap players by virtue of it being a Tuesday and it's raining and a game is going. The risk of new rules changes throws gasoline on the marginal sense of table law and order many crap players fake.
Many do that, and it can work, depending on the point number established. But hedging bets fairly equally usually avail them nothing, - it's like their average bet is $0, with only a come-out 12 has effecting on them. It can be viewed as a "drink for free" ploy. Average effective bet? Fourty cents! Boxmen hate this.Quote: DJTeddyBearDoey Don't strategy confounds me. I don't understand why those types of guys don't just bet the don't then move it to the pass if it's 6 or 8.
Quote: Toes14Why would this make any difference? The dice are still random (in theory).
Absolutely true - not that this is believed. "The dice have EYES!" they say....They'll throw three Yo's in a row, and then make a Yo bet, saying, "Now watch me make it stop! The dice OBEY me..."
Quote: BuzzpaffOh No RUN Here come the dice setters.
That's every day! We do not mind as long as it's not delaying the game. This isn't like card counting - THAT used to work at one time, long ago, in a land far, far away....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:38:45 AM
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Why would WHAT make any difference?Quote: Toes14Why would this make any difference? The dice are still random (in theory).
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 22nd, 2011 at 6:39:59 AM
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Suppose a craps table had a rule that stated the Shooter gets to throw again when they make their desired outcome, meaning that a PassLine shooter retains the dice when he makes his point and a DontPass shooter retains the dice when he Sevens Out.
No, I would NOT play at such a table since I would want to punish the casino for having attempted to introduce a change in the rules. Any change. No matter how slight, no matter how infinitesimal an effect. You need only look at the original post to see a cumbersome and wordy explanation when I'm in the casino I don't want verbosity or complexity, I want to shoot craps not some latest craps-like variant or craps with a new rule.
Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved".
No, I would NOT play at such a table since I would want to punish the casino for having attempted to introduce a change in the rules. Any change. No matter how slight, no matter how infinitesimal an effect. You need only look at the original post to see a cumbersome and wordy explanation when I'm in the casino I don't want verbosity or complexity, I want to shoot craps not some latest craps-like variant or craps with a new rule.
Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved".
September 22nd, 2011 at 7:14:57 AM
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Flea -
No changes at all?
None of the odds or payouts got changed, and the rule changes don't really affect someone betting the Pass Line.
The only change is when the dice get passed when the shooter is a Don't Pass player. Is that so terrible?
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If a name change were in order, I'd call it "Dark Side Craps" and use a black felt.
No changes at all?
None of the odds or payouts got changed, and the rule changes don't really affect someone betting the Pass Line.
The only change is when the dice get passed when the shooter is a Don't Pass player. Is that so terrible?
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If a name change were in order, I'd call it "Dark Side Craps" and use a black felt.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:03:14 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffSuppose a craps table had a rule that stated the Shooter gets to throw again when they make their desired outcome, meaning that a PassLine shooter retains the dice when he makes his point and a DontPass shooter retains the dice when he Sevens Out.
No, I would NOT play at such a table since I would want to punish the casino for having attempted to introduce a change in the rules.
What aggression! - I can relate!!
Quote: FleastiffAny change. No matter how slight, no matter how infinitesimal an effect. You need only look at the original post to see a cumbersome and wordy explanation when I'm in the casino I don't want verbosity or complexity, I want to shoot craps not some latest craps-like variant or craps with a new rule.
Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved".
Spoken like a true and authentic crap player - don't mess with my game! Exactly how a true crap player feels.
Crapless craps never too off, just met a ton of resistance.
I even had a guy play EZ Pai Gow, not knowing it was commission-free, win $50. I paid him $50, not $47.50. He's like "What! What is THIS??!!"
"SIR -it's commission-free. Same Pai Go, No commission. Bet $50, and you win $50."
"AACCHH! I never heard of such a thing! Why, this cockamamie, new-fangled scam - you're trying to TRICK me, aren't cha! That's it, that's the ticket! Aha! I knew it, you EVIL casinos..." That was basically the ("paranoid about any changes to my tried and true game") conversation.
So I then asked him to pay me the $2.50 for the vig as it would make him feel better. He said, "AAUURG! ACCHHH! You little #$%^ smart-ass bastard! ARRR..."
Actually, the good solution is that the don't shooter keeps the dice if he's a pure don't pass player, with any doey-don't players lumped in with the pure pass line players who'd have to give up the dice.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:26:25 AM
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Crapless Craps was a different animal. It changed the very nature of the game, and causes confusion to anyone who is not familiar with it.Quote: PaigowdanCrapless craps never too off, just met a ton of resistance.
Dark Side Craps (Yeah, I named it above, now that name has stuck!) does not affect someone who isn't aware of the change, with the possible exception of him being confused that the dice are passed or not passed differently - but in a manner that does not affect his own betting, shooting, or pass of the dice.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:45:33 AM
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Dave,
I LIKE dark side craps, both the name and concept.
With ONE rule: A Pure Don't pass (no doey-don't action) keeps the dice on a seven-out/a point win moves the dice to the next shooter. A pass line or doey-don't shooter loses the dice, and a PL win keeps them.
Maybe they can have a dark-sider table during certain hours. Elvira will do the promo. You will get some "Arrggg! This new-fangled cockamamie idea - yada yada yada - [bitch, moan, simmer, cranky....]
I LIKE dark side craps, both the name and concept.
With ONE rule: A Pure Don't pass (no doey-don't action) keeps the dice on a seven-out/a point win moves the dice to the next shooter. A pass line or doey-don't shooter loses the dice, and a PL win keeps them.
Maybe they can have a dark-sider table during certain hours. Elvira will do the promo. You will get some "Arrggg! This new-fangled cockamamie idea - yada yada yada - [bitch, moan, simmer, cranky....]
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:46:48 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanActually, the good solution is that the don't shooter keeps the dice if he's a pure don't pass player, with any doey-don't players lumped in with the pure pass line players who'd have to give up the dice.
Now THAT is the simple solution that I was looking for.
If you want to keep shooting when you 7 out, you are playing only DP when you make the come out roll.
If you are playing doey don't on the comeout roll, then you are considered a right way player.
Flea,
The explanation here is wordy because we are shaking out the kinks and the what ifs. In actual play it should not be noticeable at all, other than if you saw a don't shooter 7 out, and then get to roll again.
I am not trying to change the fundamental craps game, which I like A LOT. I personally have a very hard time playing the dark side. I have on occasion, and I have won from the dark side, but it was just not as enjoyable an experience. After thinking about it, I realized it was due to the dice constantly changing hands when you are winning on the dark side. No Continuity!
Dark Side Craps (good name DJ!) is aimed at creating that continuity. Get one lousy shooter that can't make a point for 20 minutes (SWEET) and voila, the whole table could celebrate each time he throws a 7 out, just as the whole table celebrates a shooter who has made 4 points in a row.
I do recognize the benefit would not be for everyone, since it does require you to bet on the Don't, and some players are fundamentally opposed to that position. But, it is certainly less of a change than crapless craps.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:49:50 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanDave,
I LIKE dark side craps, both the name and concept.
With ONE rule: A Pure Don't pass (no doey-don't action) keeps the dice on a seven-out/a point win moves the dice to the next shooter. A pass line or doey-don't shooter loses the dice, and a PL win keeps them.
Maybe they can have a dark-sider table during certain hours. Elvira will do the promo. You will get some "Arrggg! This new-fangled cockamamie idea - yada yada yada - [bitch, moan, simmer, cranky....]
Dan,
Make it happen at your place and I promise I will come play next time I am in Vegas!
PS. I didn't think there would be any way to extract money for this idea, but if you figure out a way, don't forget me. :-D
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 22nd, 2011 at 9:00:47 AM
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New game and game variation Proposals go through the DTG at a specific property.
This is a free game idea. No patent, no copyright.
I may have a pitch meeting there in the future on other game items; if I broach the subject, it will be for a few milliseconds/microseconds/nanoseconds, anticipating the eye-rolls and head-shaking and nay-sayings. I am familiar with how this generally futile and painful process works. Some other casino has to try it first, and no casino wants to try it first as the guinea pig. The new game Catch-22.
A crap game table of pure don't shooters can already (and sometimes) do something like this, with ALL of the next shooters saying "same shooter requested!" and the same shooter saying "same dark dice."
This is a free game idea. No patent, no copyright.
I may have a pitch meeting there in the future on other game items; if I broach the subject, it will be for a few milliseconds/microseconds/nanoseconds, anticipating the eye-rolls and head-shaking and nay-sayings. I am familiar with how this generally futile and painful process works. Some other casino has to try it first, and no casino wants to try it first as the guinea pig. The new game Catch-22.
A crap game table of pure don't shooters can already (and sometimes) do something like this, with ALL of the next shooters saying "same shooter requested!" and the same shooter saying "same dark dice."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 9:10:25 AM
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Have a "Dark Side Special" on Wednesday afternoon's and advertise it. ;-)
September 22nd, 2011 at 9:11:43 AM
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Quote: AlanHave a "Dark Side Special" on Wednesday afternoon's and advertise it. ;-)
Might as well, the tables are often dead then.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:32:12 AM
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Betcha half the dark side players would go light side just to be contrary... Some of them are dark eiders as they just like being 'against' the crowd.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:45:36 AM
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Quote: thecesspitBetcha half the dark side players would go light side just to be contrary... Some of them are dark eiders as they just like being 'against' the crowd.
There is a pit of that "poke the bastards in the eye" attitude from some of them: to other players, to dealers, floor, etc.
But some dark siders are just comfortable with that style of play, and apologize to no one.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 12:10:59 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanDave,
I LIKE dark side craps, both the name and concept.
With ONE rule: A Pure Don't pass (no doey-don't action) keeps the dice on a seven-out/a point win moves the dice to the next shooter. A pass line or doey-don't shooter loses the dice, and a PL win keeps them.
Maybe they can have a dark-sider table during certain hours. Elvira will do the promo. You will get some "Arrggg! This new-fangled cockamamie idea - yada yada yada - [bitch, moan, simmer, cranky....]
I think Dan's rule is great. I would also suggest that the layout reverse the DP and Passline "bands", so that the DP band goes around the hook closest to the rail, and the Passline bets would be in the two boxes. The Come and Don't Come boxes would be switched too, with more real estate going to the DC.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 22nd, 2011 at 1:32:21 PM
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>Flea -No changes at all?
That's right! None!
>None of the odds or payouts got changed, and the rule changes don't really affect someone betting the Pass Line.
And a mosquito only takes a teensy weensy amount of blood. And she only takes it from a high exhaler of carbon dioxide.
>The only change is when the dice get passed when the shooter is a Don't Pass player. Is that so terrible?
Yes.
>If a name change were in order, I'd call it "Dark Side Craps" and use a black felt.
Sounds like a marketing gimmick for the very first Craps Pit with a Pole. Can we add to the mix some girls wearing a black bikini? And some concoction to be dubbed The Dark Side Drink? And dealers who say "We only accept Black Chips as tokes, Sir".
Like I said upthread: Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved". I will go drown myself in the Bellagio fountains the day some casino introduces lemon-flavored dice.
Crapless Craps? That's easy. I was utterly blotto when I first encountered crapless craps and some dealer seeing the expression on my face explained it me. When it finally penetrated my alcohol sodden brain, I walked away from that table and kept right on walking...straight out of the casino, never to return.
That's right! None!
>None of the odds or payouts got changed, and the rule changes don't really affect someone betting the Pass Line.
And a mosquito only takes a teensy weensy amount of blood. And she only takes it from a high exhaler of carbon dioxide.
>The only change is when the dice get passed when the shooter is a Don't Pass player. Is that so terrible?
Yes.
>If a name change were in order, I'd call it "Dark Side Craps" and use a black felt.
Sounds like a marketing gimmick for the very first Craps Pit with a Pole. Can we add to the mix some girls wearing a black bikini? And some concoction to be dubbed The Dark Side Drink? And dealers who say "We only accept Black Chips as tokes, Sir".
Like I said upthread: Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved". I will go drown myself in the Bellagio fountains the day some casino introduces lemon-flavored dice.
Crapless Craps? That's easy. I was utterly blotto when I first encountered crapless craps and some dealer seeing the expression on my face explained it me. When it finally penetrated my alcohol sodden brain, I walked away from that table and kept right on walking...straight out of the casino, never to return.
September 22nd, 2011 at 2:02:19 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff>If a name change were in order, I'd call it "Dark Side Craps" and use a black felt.
Sounds like a marketing gimmick for the very first Craps Pit with a Pole.
Corporations from Proctor & Gamble to Estee Lauder to MGM Resorts use Marketing techniques without apology. Should they apologize - or should they advertise?
Nobody mentioned a pole on a crap table except for one person. That won't happen.
Quote: FleastiffCan we add to the mix some girls wearing a black bikini? And some concoction to be dubbed The Dark Side Drink? And dealers who say "We only accept Black Chips as tokes, Sir".
1. And where would this Hedonistic crap pit be? At Joker's Wild? At one of the Fiestas? At the Stratosphere? at the Imperial Palace? All Paid for by $3 pass lines bets or $9 inside? Don't think so. What casino would pay for such an elaborate crap pit get up?
2. One downtown casino had female crap dealing crews in mini black leather - with black cowboy hats! - running a game. ("Well, sir! Your hard eight is STILL up!") Nice getup, too, I mean it worked. My friend Steve and I jumped right on the game. We lost. Hot chicks cannot always warm up cold dice, but the eye candy factor is big in this town, and gets used heavily.
3. Dealers get fired for asking for tokes, and they wouldn't get them by asking anyway.
4. The Dark Side Drink IS kind of a catchy idea - I like it. Kahlua or dark rum based, maybe.
Quote: FleaStiffLike I said upthread: Run the darned casino as if you were on the Las Vegas Strip, not Madison Avenue where everything is "new and improved". I will go drown myself in the Bellagio fountains the day some casino introduces lemon-flavored dice.
The Tuscany used lime-green dice for a while, bought a stick of five at their gift shop. Nobody cared. And Great for St. Patty's day - or for TI: "Arr, there's the rub!" The fountains await you!
Casinos will try some "new and improved stuff" as they see fit - and if it catches on, the naysayers are ignored if they are outnumbered.
Quote: FleaStiffCrapless Craps? That's easy. I was utterly blotto when I first encountered crapless craps and some dealer seeing the expression on my face explained it me. When it finally penetrated my alcohol sodden brain, I walked away from that table and kept right on walking...straight out of the casino, never to return.
Agree with you on crapless craps FleaStiff. Not a big hit.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 3:10:06 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanMight as well, the tables are often dead then.
Plus a certain dealer has been rumored to be in that same condition. It it hard to shave Dan, with no reflection in the mirror ?
September 22nd, 2011 at 3:32:57 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffPlus a certain dealer has been rumored to be in that same condition. It it hard to shave Dan, with no reflection in the mirror ?
Actually, the reports of my death are greatly exaggerated, the usual cause of that being wishful thinking by people who would rather I be dead. Never laid hands on a flea.
Unfortunately, I am still alive and well. Wishing me dead and actually killing me are two entirely different things, but you may state your wishes. A little sad and surprising to hear. Still have a reflection in the mirror I see every day, and I curse his name ever day, if that makes you feel better.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:11:17 PM
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My kingdom for a silver bullet ! LOL Just kidding Dan. May EZ Baccarat allow your golden days to be GOLDEN indeed.
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:25:08 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffMy kingdom for a silver bullet ! LOL Just kidding Dan. May EZ Baccarat allow your golden days to be GOLDEN indeed.
Thanks - and EZ Pai Gow may help! (EZ Baccarat is a sister product by another game inventor cohort at DEQ.)
Anyway, we went off on some tangent where lemon-lime dice will cause a suicide in the fountains of the Bellagio while I have no reflection in the mirror while I shave. Personally, I prefer tutti-fruity dice and threads....
I enjoy this stuff. All okay...
Meanwhile...back at the ranch...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:41:19 PM
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When Hard Rock first opened, they had purple layouts on their craps tables. It was hard to see the dice.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
