Do Casinos Still Use Shills?
June 21st, 2011 at 1:04:51 PM
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Do casinos still use shills (beautiful women or men who sit at empty table to encourage people to gamble)? I heard that they do for poker tables, but what about empty craps or baccarat or blackjack tables?
If they still use them, does anyone know how well they pay or how to go about getting hired as one? I think it might be fun.
If they still use them, does anyone know how well they pay or how to go about getting hired as one? I think it might be fun.
June 21st, 2011 at 1:12:20 PM
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I wouldn't call them shills, exactly, but around here they will keep people on the clock and have them play at the poker tables to keep them from breaking. Many of the table-games dealers "work" in the poker pit before and after their dealing shifts to help keep the head-count at >5 per table, so that more tables can be open and raking pots.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
June 21st, 2011 at 2:20:08 PM
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No, I do not believe that casinos actually use shills any longer. I think they should. I also think they should beef up their lessons programs to develop more depth and breadth amongst their customers so as to be able ride out various gaming whims and become less subject to what might be termed "mono-culture".
It used to be well known that casinos hired shills to "open tables" so as to always nudge the "rush hour" to earlier times. Nothing would make a baccarat table fill up in the late afternoon as a gorgeous young woman in an evening gown and a handsome young man beside her. They would be seated off at the far end of the table too, so as to leave the more inviting seats open for passersby to whom they would often make inviting gestures. All such shills knew that one rule applied to them: Do not ever cash chips. Not ever.
My understanding is that such jobs were transitional. People would be moved from being a shill to something else when an opening happened but meanwhile they were being utilized and I'm told were often hired on the basis of "juice" (meaning that they knew someone). The only shill I knew was a male who was hired while in the NYC metropolitan area, so you know that he had to have some juice in order to be hired for a Las Vegas casino while living in NYC.
So today, I think shills on the casino floor are long gone.
In the poker room there are sometimes shills but most such players are Proposition Players rather than shills. Casino employees playing for their own account rather than with casino-supplied funds. Mississippi requires a prominent sign be displayed at the poker room desk about each of the two categories and I believe the law there requires disclosure of their status to the entire table if anyone at the table happens to ask.
It used to be well known that casinos hired shills to "open tables" so as to always nudge the "rush hour" to earlier times. Nothing would make a baccarat table fill up in the late afternoon as a gorgeous young woman in an evening gown and a handsome young man beside her. They would be seated off at the far end of the table too, so as to leave the more inviting seats open for passersby to whom they would often make inviting gestures. All such shills knew that one rule applied to them: Do not ever cash chips. Not ever.
My understanding is that such jobs were transitional. People would be moved from being a shill to something else when an opening happened but meanwhile they were being utilized and I'm told were often hired on the basis of "juice" (meaning that they knew someone). The only shill I knew was a male who was hired while in the NYC metropolitan area, so you know that he had to have some juice in order to be hired for a Las Vegas casino while living in NYC.
So today, I think shills on the casino floor are long gone.
In the poker room there are sometimes shills but most such players are Proposition Players rather than shills. Casino employees playing for their own account rather than with casino-supplied funds. Mississippi requires a prominent sign be displayed at the poker room desk about each of the two categories and I believe the law there requires disclosure of their status to the entire table if anyone at the table happens to ask.
June 21st, 2011 at 2:51:05 PM
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In California cardrooms, "house players" are still a required position. They are payed a weekly stipend, but have to cover anything over that base amount. On the other hand, they get to keep their winnings.
The plus side, is that if you enjoy playing, you are getting paid to play. The downside is that you may be required to take your turn at the $15/$30 lowball for a few hours, which could eat your profits in blinds quite quickly.
The plus side, is that if you enjoy playing, you are getting paid to play. The downside is that you may be required to take your turn at the $15/$30 lowball for a few hours, which could eat your profits in blinds quite quickly.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
June 21st, 2011 at 5:14:57 PM
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I do not know about shills but I have seen ads for "prop players" on poker cruises. $10 an hour while you play. Bad news is I doubt they let you move from table to table if you like.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
June 22nd, 2011 at 1:05:02 AM
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At the same time, I've seen prop players do a whole lot of nothing while sitting at the poker table. In Arizona Indian casinos, at least, the casino is obligated to identify prop players if asked. I've always done this. It really doesn't take too long before you start to know who all the prop players are. With very few exceptions, most of the prop players played very few hands, usually only playing premiums hands like pocket Aces, pocket Kinks, and Ace-King. Rarely did I see a prop player play lots of hands, and usually if they did, it didn't last long. It made sense to me, though. They were getting paid by the hour. There was no point in them losing what money they were making by gambling it all away.
June 22nd, 2011 at 5:51:45 AM
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Quote: AZDuffmanI do not know about shills but I have seen ads for "prop players"
A prop player is a shill, and yes they are still used extensively in casinos. They are also used at auctions to run up the bid. Its a fact that most people won't sit at a table with no players, so have a shill pretend to play, and here come the suckers. Its harmless and its employs people, no big deal.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
June 22nd, 2011 at 7:56:41 AM
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A shill and a prop player are not the same. By definition, a shill is a person who helps an organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization. Most times in the past, the shill would use house money to gamble with.
A prop player is simply a poker player that gets pretty much minimum wage to play poker at a casino. The casino must identify prop players when asked. The props have to use their own money when playing. The upside for the props is that they get minimum wage for doing something they would normally be doing anyway. The minimum wage helps them beat the rake. The downside for them is they have to play where the casino tells them to. If a game is loose, a fish tank, etc, chances are more players will asked to be moved to that table and the prop will be moved off.
A prop player is simply a poker player that gets pretty much minimum wage to play poker at a casino. The casino must identify prop players when asked. The props have to use their own money when playing. The upside for the props is that they get minimum wage for doing something they would normally be doing anyway. The minimum wage helps them beat the rake. The downside for them is they have to play where the casino tells them to. If a game is loose, a fish tank, etc, chances are more players will asked to be moved to that table and the prop will be moved off.
June 22nd, 2011 at 9:29:39 AM
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Quote: EvenBobIts a fact that most people won't sit at a table with no players
But you would be guaranteed to win every hand if there are no other players at the table.
June 22nd, 2011 at 9:45:36 AM
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I hate people so I look for empty tables. When it fills up, it gets slow and (usually) smokey which detracts from the fun. I also tend to think of myself as somewhat less than unique in this regard so I'm sure that there are plenty of misanthropes to open tables.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 22nd, 2011 at 9:52:20 AM
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Are you talking about Poker?Quote: s2dbakerI hate people so I look for empty tables. When it fills up, it gets slow and (usually) smokey which detracts from the fun. I also tend to think of myself as somewhat less than unique in this regard so I'm sure that there are plenty of misanthropes to open tables.
Most poker players HATE to see even one seat open at their table, and most (all?) poker rooms are non-smoking.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 22nd, 2011 at 10:02:18 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearand most (all?) poker rooms are non-smoking.
Actually, believe it or not in 2011, there are still a couple poker rooms here in LV where smoking is permitted. Boulder Station comes to mind where smoking is permitted at the table, and Hooters where players who aren't too lazy could rise from their seats and take a single step to the ashcan, but on a drunken Friday night they can leeeeean back in their chairs and pick their butts out of it just a yard away. Many rooms aren't sequestered enough to be actually non-smoking, as inconsiderate a-holes are free to stand at the rail and blow their nasty toxins right into the room while watching for their big blinds to come around, then rejoin the table stinking like a wet ashtray. Thanks so much for that.
Quote: s2dbakerI hate people ...... it gets .....(usually) smokey which detracts from the fun.
I hate them more, believe me. (!) No wonder I'm divorced.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
June 22nd, 2011 at 10:24:11 AM
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Sry, I don't mean poker tables. I meant craps, THB, BJ or other Dealer vs. Player situations.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 22nd, 2011 at 1:17:25 PM
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.....
June 22nd, 2011 at 1:19:28 PM
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Quote: kpBut you would be guaranteed to win every hand if there are no other players at the table.
Dang, that's the secret of my Internet only poker book, "Win Every Hand!"
29.95, but now only 19.99 if you order in 48 hours!
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
June 22nd, 2011 at 11:36:52 PM
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I know our local large Indian casinos in the Seattle area still use "prop players" in the poker room. Because I used to prop for some of them. $14 an hour, and you had to show up to work with $500 to clock in. The part that sucked is the pit would just move you around from table to table all night so a table didn't break. It wasn't really bad unless I got stuck on the 7 card stud hi/low table :(. No fun paying on a table were everyone is over the age of 70 LOL.
June 23rd, 2011 at 1:17:08 AM
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Quote: vert1276I know our local large Indian casinos in the Seattle area still use "prop players" in the poker room. Because I used to prop for some of them. $14 an hour, and you had to show up to work with $500 to clock in.
So what happened at the end of the night, they gave you back the $500? What happened if you won? Sounds like tough work, LOL.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
June 23rd, 2011 at 4:02:20 AM
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I think at the end of the night they gave him fourteen dollars an hour. Whether he won or lost all night long was his problem. He was there to "keep a table from breaking" for having too few players. They didn't care if he won or lost. He was there to help open the games and to keep the games from breaking up. ALL he got was 14.00 an hour. His 500 is what he had to bring with him. How much of it he took home they don't care.
June 23rd, 2011 at 10:48:21 AM
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Quote: EvenBobSo what happened at the end of the night, they gave you back the $500? What happened if you won? Sounds like tough work, LOL.
No the 500 was your money. The casino never gave you money to play with. You had to show up with $500 of your OWN money. If you worked 10 hours at $14 and hour you would get a check for $140(no taxes taken out since you were a 1099). But if you lost your $500 bank roll in that 10 hours. You worked 10 hours and ended up LOSING $360 LOL. SO its worse than working for free you worked for NEGATIVE $360 lol
June 23rd, 2011 at 11:30:47 AM
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Not really. If you're the type that would have played anyway, then if you has a losing session, it doesn't hurt as bad. If it was a winning session, then you've won even more.Quote: vert1276... But if you lost your $500 bank roll in that 10 hours. You worked 10 hours and ended up LOSING $360 LOL. SO its worse than working for free you worked for NEGATIVE $360 lol
But is it really a job? I mean, who sets the hours and days? I wouldn't expect the shil to also get comps at the same time, or would he? Are there any other perks involved?
Frankly, I'm surprised to learn that this happens. I mean, does the card room make so much off the rake that it pays to pay a few people to hang around and play, to prevent a table from being closed?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 23rd, 2011 at 11:56:14 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI mean, does the card room make so much off the rake that it pays to pay a few people to hang around and play, to prevent a table from being closed?
Yes.
House Players at the joints near me are eligible for high hand and bad beat jackpots, but cannot collect "seat time" credits. Schedules are set like most any other job, with folks bidding on shifts based on seniority.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
June 23rd, 2011 at 12:01:57 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearNot really. If you're the type that would have played anyway, then if you has a losing session, it doesn't hurt as bad. If it was a winning session, then you've won even more.
But is it really a job? I mean, who sets the hours and days? I wouldn't expect the shil to also get comps at the same time, or would he? Are there any other perks involved?
Frankly, I'm surprised to learn that this happens. I mean, does the card room make so much off the rake that it pays to pay a few people to hang around and play, to prevent a table from being closed?
Well ya you are correct, it makes the loss a little easier to deal with LOL. And yes many people did this as a job. Playing on the week days. As almost all casinos never needed prop players to keep tables from breaking or being "short" on the weekend. You set your own hours. I would call ahead to see if they needed players(most of the time they would always say yes) The prop list was done by seniority so by who had been there the longest THAT DAY. not by who had been a prop player the longest. So if someone had been proping for 8 hours he had seniority over someone who just walked ion the door. Most of the bigger ones (Tulalip and muckleshoot casinos) always had at least 4 or 5 prop players on the clock. This is why the good dealers always wanted to work there. Because at other casinos the dealers are the FORCED prop players and must sit in on a short table with their own money. It's kinda hard for the dealers to ever win, do you really want to beat a player that's gonna be tipping you in 15 min when you are back dealing? So it was a double win for the casino having prop players. One they never had short tables that were in danger of breaking, and players would go there just for the fact they knew they would never really have to sit at a short table(less than 7 players). And the casino got the best of the best dealers becasue every poker dealer wanted to deal there.
The 1k to $1500 a large casino(20 to 30 tables) might pay out to prop players over a 24 hour period is well worth it to them in the amount of business it brings in, and the dealers it can pick from. The dealers are the best. Not calling the floor over every 10 min becasue they messed up which means more hands dealt per hour and more money for the casino. And not having unreliable dealers not showing up of a shift ect ect. But it would not make sense for a small casino with 2 poker table to have prop players thats why they make the dealer on break sit in a short game becasue they are already paying him anyways.
June 23rd, 2011 at 3:02:19 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear
Frankly, I'm surprised to learn that this happens. I mean, does the card room make so much off the rake
From reading articles and interviews over the years, many of the famous Vegas players got their starts as shills in the poker rooms. Its been going on since the 50's.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
June 23rd, 2011 at 6:12:20 PM
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Several years ago I was playing BJ at Sands in AC when the floorperson asked me if I wanted to play baccarat in exchange for dinner for two. The reason he gave was that there was a high roller present in the casino, but he would not play at an empty table. They felt if I was sitting there, he would start playing. I agreed, was led to a table, and was taught very quickly how to play. I remember playing for @ 15 minutes (at a "special" $5 minimum bet rate they gave me) before the table began filling up. I got my comp and left. I think this fits the definition of a shill!
June 23rd, 2011 at 8:40:47 PM
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haha, come to think of it, I'm a shill at the casino I go to...usually the craps table is DEAD empty..I'll go start playing and people will come to it, and I'm usually the only one tipping and then other people join in, lol...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
June 23rd, 2011 at 8:50:19 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDhaha, come to think of it, I'm a shill at the casino I go to...usually the craps table is DEAD empty..I'll go start playing and people will come to it, and I'm usually the only one tipping and then other people join in, lol...
See, I do the same thing! I think that a casino should pay me to go from empty craps table to empty craps table to get more people to play! I could tell anyone who walks up, "Hardway are hot tonight!" or "I feel a Yo coming up!"
June 24th, 2011 at 2:48:53 AM
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I'm sure you were a very attractive addition to the table.
So, tell us .... did this event happen to get you to continue to play Baccarat from time to time. Or even just MiniBacc? It must have been fun for you to have been a casino shill even if it was only briefly. At the very least, you got a free dinner out of it.
So, tell us .... did this event happen to get you to continue to play Baccarat from time to time. Or even just MiniBacc? It must have been fun for you to have been a casino shill even if it was only briefly. At the very least, you got a free dinner out of it.
June 24th, 2011 at 3:00:04 AM
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Quote: gamblerSee, I do the same thing! I think that a casino should pay me to go from empty craps table to empty craps table to get more people to play! I could tell anyone who walks up, "Hardway are hot tonight!" or "I feel a Yo coming up!"
I know of one crew, NOT casino, that used to hire a shill from time to time. She was not paid to make any comments about bets or anything. She was paid to "open" the table and get a crowd to gather. She already worked as an independent contractor in the casinos "entertainment department" so the crew let her start out playing craps for awhile and then she would drift away from the craps table and begin her "entertainment duties".
June 24th, 2011 at 3:30:59 AM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDhaha, come to think of it, I'm a shill at the casino I go to...usually the craps table is DEAD empty..I'll go start playing and people will come to it, and I'm usually the only one tipping and then other people join in, lol...
I once had it happen oppisite. Late AM and csaino is dead. Crap table goes dead except for me. One of the dealers asked me directly if I still wanted to play. They didn't want to close it but were rather realizing some people do not want to play alone. I think I stayed for 2 or so rolls and moved on to BJ.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
June 24th, 2011 at 3:40:51 AM
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The crew may have wanted an "early out". I know casinos have an Early Out list of people who want to go home. I guess they get the same toke share but lose only their salary for getting off an hour early, I don't know.
June 24th, 2011 at 3:52:30 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffThe crew may have wanted an "early out". I know casinos have an Early Out list of people who want to go home. I guess they get the same toke share but lose only their salary for getting off an hour early, I don't know.
If it were a different time of day maybe, but it was just before noon, mid-shift on a saturday. The crowds came later. In fact, at a crowded table later one dealer left my DP bet up. I think boxchick saw him do it because the next time a point was made she was right on him about picking it up.
Makes up for the pit boss taking bets when the BJ dealer hit a 19 because he was paying more attention to our conversation with him (the pit boss) than the cards. Though the look on the pb's face was priceless. I mean, he was right in front of third base talking to me about trivial and BAM, dealer says, "uh, floor, I hit a 19!"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
June 24th, 2011 at 4:09:10 AM
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>If it were a different time of day maybe, but it was just before noon, mid-shift on a saturday.
Yeah, that is definitely not an early out time.
>later one dealer left my DP bet up. boxchick saw him do it ... next time a point was made she was right on him about picking it up.
You must have been tipping the dealers although some dealers do get in bad habits of not checking the DP box because it is so seldom used. Terribles had someone take a razor blade to the lettering on the felt so the box was still there but no text.
> "uh, floor, I hit a 19!"
Casino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
Shilling briefly is probably fun, but I don't think casinos ever actually employ shills anymore (except the poker room variation). In my post above the "entertainment department" worker was obviously dressed for her "profession" though not too blatantly and therefore she was a good draw of a crowd at the dice table.
Yeah, that is definitely not an early out time.
>later one dealer left my DP bet up. boxchick saw him do it ... next time a point was made she was right on him about picking it up.
You must have been tipping the dealers although some dealers do get in bad habits of not checking the DP box because it is so seldom used. Terribles had someone take a razor blade to the lettering on the felt so the box was still there but no text.
> "uh, floor, I hit a 19!"
Casino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
Shilling briefly is probably fun, but I don't think casinos ever actually employ shills anymore (except the poker room variation). In my post above the "entertainment department" worker was obviously dressed for her "profession" though not too blatantly and therefore she was a good draw of a crowd at the dice table.
June 24th, 2011 at 10:57:58 AM
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> "uh, floor, I hit a 19!"
Casino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
So if hit a 2 for 21 you would just smile as you lost your bet on that 20 hand of yours ?? No way. The 19 stands.
Casino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
So if hit a 2 for 21 you would just smile as you lost your bet on that 20 hand of yours ?? No way. The 19 stands.
June 24th, 2011 at 11:05:14 AM
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Haven't you ever heard the pit say, "The dealer can't make a mistake?"Quote: FleaStiffCasino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
I hear that all the time ...
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
June 24th, 2011 at 11:44:32 AM
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Quote: teddysHaven't you ever heard the pit say, "The dealer can't make a mistake?"
I hear that all the time ...
A long time ago I used to point out dealer mistakes to the pit, just to watch them squirm. Now I don't bother, it brings too much attention to me and who needs that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
June 24th, 2011 at 12:30:14 PM
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I corrected two dealer mistakes in my favor the other day. The third time (when she mispaid someone else), I said f--- it.
I do still sometimes correct mistakes that were in another player's favor, just by reflex. (Blurting out "what?", etc.) Gotta stop doing that.
Last week dealer made an $80 mispay when she didn't see a straight. Table shut down for 25 minutes while pit looked at video. Result? Green chip player gave his money back, but they forgot about the red chip players (me and one other guy) who also got paid. $40 swing in our favor.
I do still sometimes correct mistakes that were in another player's favor, just by reflex. (Blurting out "what?", etc.) Gotta stop doing that.
Last week dealer made an $80 mispay when she didn't see a straight. Table shut down for 25 minutes while pit looked at video. Result? Green chip player gave his money back, but they forgot about the red chip players (me and one other guy) who also got paid. $40 swing in our favor.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
June 24th, 2011 at 5:34:51 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff"uh, floor, I hit a 19!"
Casino should have paid everyone's bet. Casino busted. It was an error but when players make an error they don't get to re-consider.
Injun casino and when I go there I consider it lucky that the Interstate Highway in front of it hasn't degraded to a dirt road out of "The Dukes of Hazard" much less get a good ruling on something like that.
Seriously I didn't bitch because:
1. Dealer had me beat w/o taking a hit
2. I know it would be a waste of time
3. Dealer and PB were friendly and nice. And as I said, it was my conversation with PB that caused the whole thing in a way. Sometimes you need to forget the $5 bet and moveon.org.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
June 25th, 2011 at 12:17:18 AM
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Quote: AZDuffman....I consider it lucky that the Interstate Highway in front of it hasn't degraded to a dirt road out of "The Dukes of Hazard"....
Since I know your location and our previous convo's keyed in on this topic, I can pretty much assure you're talking about Seneca Allegany and I-86. Now, usually on a forum as fact driven as this, "bullsh*t" could be called and fingers pointed over your "exagerations" and "blowing things out of proportion to make your point". Well, I'm here to say your statement is absolutely false. The funny thing (to me) is, for once someone wasn't exagerating, they were "underagerating"! Your luck, sir, has run out. I had to run I-86 towing my boat two weeks ago. Lane changes were impossible due to the 4" wide and 4"-6" deep canyons seperating lanes that are present for the entire length of the rez section of 86. I got to the corner I spoke of in the other post, the one that I almost died on going 170 on my bike....and a whole 75' of the slow lane had fallen into the river. It was just gone. No signs, no cones, no "hey, might wanna merge to the right kinda soon" notices, just a 30' drop to the river bank below with no warning whatsoever. Had the right lane not been so bad to make me chance a stuntman type lane change over the aformentioned lane canyons, I'd of Luke Duke'd my ass right into the Ohi:yo. And since there was no dirt ramp and my Silverado doesn't toot "Dixie", I surely would have shorted the jump and likely died. You know, as opposed to shouting Yee-Haw! and driving off into the sunset.
Anyone venturing to Allegany is urged to use surface roads. If you can't, I'd advise you save aside enough of your play money to buy new shocks and struts.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
