Modern Racism
Quote: EvenBobSo when I say it, its ridiculous. And when you say the same thing, its flawless fact. How convenient...
If I had indeed said the same thing as you, Bob, it would indeed be equally ridiculous. But I didn't, and it wasn't.
Quote: weaselmanI am not sure what you are saying. I wasn't born in Finland either ...
Jesus was of North African / Near Eastern descent, born to Jewish parents who were born in or around what is now the West Bank. They didn't look like Northern Europeans (including Finns). The depiction of Jesus and his parents as Caucasian-featured people is almost certainly inaccurate. Otherwise, he'd be the only Middle Easterner who looks like this:
instead of this:
Quote: MathExtremistI'm saying is that Jesus was of North African / Near Eastern descent, born to Jewish parents who were born in or around what is now the West Bank. They didn't look like Northern Europeans (including Finns). The depiction of Jesus and his parents as Caucasian-featured people is almost certainly inaccurate. Otherwise, he'd be the only Middle Easterner who looks like this:
What I really want to know is, why, in just about every Christian depiction of Jesus, does he look like he's completely stoned?
Quote: mkl654321If I had indeed said the same thing as you, Bob, it would indeed be equally ridiculous. But I didn't, and it wasn't.
What you said was Dominos was targeting their audience, and I said does that mean Geico is targeting Whites because thats who's in 99% of their commercials. All I did was use you targeting logic and you said it was 'ridiculous'. So you can target minorities only and not Whites? Sounds awfully racist to me..
Quote: EvenBobSo in the first two decades of TV when you never or rarely saw a Black on TV, that wasn't racism? What was it, then? When you target certain races in a commercial, it most certainly is racism. Were all supposed to be equal, we all ride in the front of the bus and we all buy the same products.
The double standard here is amazing. Ever see "Amos and Andy?" It is doubtful anyone has since it has been banned from TV and CBS tried to destroy the tapes. You can see some episodes on Youtube. What you will see is almost all black charachters. From the guy sweeping the floor to lawyers. Things that would be out of place at the time.
Now, the reason you can't see it on TV? Because they are all acting foolish. Can't have that, no matter how funny it is. Compare them to say Ralph Kramden, The Three Stooges, Gilligan and the Skipper, and more. The difference is zero.
So is it a wonder there are few black and other minority charachters on TV? If they are not a "right" charachter all kinds of groups protest. From a producers point of view it is smarter to have almost all white charachters and hope nobody complains about that.
On Wiz's model comment, he may be interested to know that at least in the banking industry regularors can fine if the selection of models for literature is not "diverse." I don't think there is a set number, but regulators look at that the same as loan approval by race.
Quote: AZDuffman
So is it a wonder there are few black and other minority charachters on TV? If they are not a "right" charachter all kinds of groups protest. From a producers point of view it is smarter to have almost all white charachters and hope nobody complains about that.
Another example of this is crime dramas on tv. Law and Order comes to mind. They would be sure to include minorities as suspects but if the victim was white those suspects were NEVER guilty except in a few cases where that suspect was justified in some way. It got to be laughable, because if the victim was for example a white woman and they interviewed a black suspect you could be sure he didn't do it. However white males were the devil incarnate.
I thought it was a good show and I enjoyed it, but I always thought it was funny that they had the guts to include all sorts of races in different roles but wouldn't dare cross the line of minority on white crime.
Quote: AZDuffman
So is it a wonder there are few black and other minority charachters on TV? If they are not a "right" charachter all kinds of groups protest. From a producers point of view it is smarter to have almost all white charachters and hope nobody complains about that.
I've been around long enough to remember when Beaver Cleaver had no Black friends and when people went crazy when Bill Cosby was on 'I Spy' and Charles Shultz was almost lynched for creating a Black friend for Charlie Brown.. Then a few years later, 1970, Archie Bunker could say anything he wanted about any minority and America ate it up. All thru the 70's and 80's there was one Black show after another with humor that would get them arrested today. And here we are in 2011, so confused and terrified about racial issues, that we avoid them entirely and hope nobody notices. We pray that nothing happens in our area that requires a visit from the Race Police, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. We're really much closer to being back in the 1950's than ever.
Quote: clarkacalI thought it was a good show and I enjoyed it, but I always thought it was funny that they had the guts to include all sorts of races in different roles but wouldn't dare cross the line of minority on white crime.
Thats the reason I quit watching network TV drama. I watch a few comedy shows like The Office and 30 Rock and thats it.
Quote: EvenBobThats the reason I quit watching network TV drama. I watch a few comedy shows like The Office and 30 Rock and thats it.
I am also off the networks completly. I used to watch "Shark Tank" because it was fun. But if you are not watching Jack Bauer apologize that they wrote muslims as the bad guys that year you are watching some gay couple in the storyline. If not that thenJack McCoy is making some crack about why we need socialized medicine, or Lt Van Buren complaining about Rudy. Then they wonder why barely 50% of people watch the networks any given night when it was once well over 90.
Quote: 7outlineawayMaybe this explains why animated shows are so popular. The Simpsons, Family Guy and South Park would never get away with the jokes they make if they were live-action. I don't mean to say these shows are racist; they seem to offend all groups equally. But at least they can make the jokes in the first place because there are no real-life characters involved.
That's a good point. Family guy just doesn't care.
Quote: teddysAll three of those groups have a history of being unrepresented, discriminated against, and generally being marginalized throughout history. Is the Domino's commercial balancing things out? It's a start. Is it racist? In the same way that every other commercial before it featuring only white people was racist, sure.
So racism is OK if its in favor of minorities. You just made my point exactly. Thanks..
I didn't mean to say that. I don't think the commercial's racist at all. Most commercials aren't. (Some TV shows or radio programs are). I don't think racism is okay whether it's in favor of minorities or in favor of majorities -- it's equally bad. But the fact is that minorities have been underrepresented and shat upon for nigh-on 250 years in this country. Do they deserve a break/increased opportunities/more pizza commercials being made about them? I think so. Is that being racist? I don't think so.Quote: EvenBobSo racism is OK if its in favor of minorities. You just made my point exactly. Thanks..
Personally I think we would all be better, and smarter, without any tv. Would the economy suffer? Perhaps because of the lost commercial opportunities for big companies and lack of a "captive" (if you're like me you zone out commercials and only notice bad things that make you not want to buy something) audience, but think of the extra productivity a person would have!
Quote: teddysBut the fact is that minorities have been underrepresented and shat upon for nigh-on 250 years in this country. Do they deserve a break/increased opportunities/more pizza commercials being made about them?.
So you're saying racism is OK if its for a good reason? The racists of old thought they were doing it for a good reason too, all racists have all kinds of reasons for their actions.
Quote: clarkacalI don't think there is a solution to this problem on tv. All whites would be racist. All minorities would be racist. Hand picking the perfect number of each race would be racist. The problem is inherent in tv because it is artificial.
Now you're getting close to the solution. Reality is the only way not to be racist. A randomly picked Dominos and a randomly picked time to film real people leaving a Dominos. But that'll never happen because they need to control everything.
Quote: EvenBobSo in the first two decades of TV when you never or rarely saw a Black on TV, that wasn't racism? What was it, then? When you target certain races in a commercial, it most certainly is racism. Were all supposed to be equal, we all ride in the front of the bus and we all buy the same products.
Quote: EvenBobAre you American? It had NOTHING to do with the buying power of Blacks. It had everything to do with the prejudice of Whites against Blacks in the 50's. If you had a Black in a TV commercial, no network would have aired it, they would have been driven out of business. I remember the outcry over Bill Cosby being the first Black guy to star in a primetime show, 'I Spy'. You would have thought the world was ending.
Quote: EvenBobNo you would NOT have. Blacks bought just as much laundry detergent and toothpaste and bread per family unit as Whites did. Not seeing them on TV had nothing to do with 'economic power'. Up until the late 60's, when Sammy Davis Jr played in Vegas, he was asked not to walk thru the casino when his act was over, but to leave thru the kitchen. It had not a thing to do with the economic power of Blacks.
Quote: EvenBobI'm telling you that your average Black family bought just as much soap and margarine and cigarettes as the average White family. 99% of TV commercials were for common everyday items, and its a fact that Blacks bought more name brands than Whites did, even though they were never in the ads. They didn't buy as many new cars or trips to Bermuda or riding mowers, but most commercials weren't for those items. Do you really think Kool cigarettes looked at the Black community and said they aren't our customers so we won't target them on TV?
Quote: EvenBobSo because Blacks had fewer TV's than Whites, they weren't worth targeting? Why do you keep avoiding the blatant racism that was the 1950's? Ever hear of Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King?
I'd say that you have shown quite clearly how "blatant" racism was in the 1950's. You've shown ample examples of Blacks not being represented on TV (in shows or commercials) and how only having whites represented was racist.
Quote: EvenBobJust saw a Dominos Pizza commercial on TV. Out the door, carrying a pizza comes a Black guy. After him comes an Asian guy. After him comes a Mexican couple, carrying boxes of pizza. No White people at all. Is this an accident? Hardly. Somebody thought up every frame of this, including who's in it. If you asked the average Black, Asian or Mexican if this commercial offended them, they would say no. The average White would say no. But if it was all White people in the commercial, that would illicit totally different answers. Why is this modern version of racism any different from any other kind we had in the past. Looking at many commercials these days, you get the impression that White folks don't even live in America anymore.
You've also made your point about how putting people of different ethnicities in TV commercials is racist.
Quote: EvenBobWhitey? Your grasp of what racism is about is astounding. Never mind, I won't tax your mind any further.
I guess you're right. You really do seem to have a very firm grasp of racism.
Quote: EvenBobTV shows are a different matter. They used to be a lot more racially targeted than they are now. It doesn't sell, nobody watches the shows. Blacks especially are complaining about how hard it is to get a job on a TV show these days. The commercials are the ones targeting race. Just this minute saw an AT&T commercial in an office that had 3 Blacks, an Asian, and a dorky White guy that was labeled a 'creep' by a fellow Black worker. Gee, I think I get it, you don't even have to explain it to me.
I hate the main black guy in that commercial - but only because he comes across as one of the biggest jerks I've ever seen. Still waiting for somebody to slap him!
Quote: EvenBob... Then a few years later, 1970, Archie Bunker could say anything he wanted about any minority and America ate it up. ...
If you mean that the program promoted blatant racist comments about minorities and that in 1970 America ate that up, then that's not the way I recall "All in the Family" at all. On that show they were quite restrictive on what language Archie Bunker could use. He could refer to blacks as "jungle bunnies" or such, but "nigger" was strictly forbidden. All of his racial ranting was designed to be funny with Archie Bunker coming across looking like the idiot -- a bit like Chester Riley a decade and a half earlier. Edith, "Meathead", and Gloria were second-tier idiots.
Off camera, Carroll O'Connor was adamant about which character was in the wrong, and he personally was nothing like his character. I think he and Sammy Davis were pretty close. The show's producers also made the special effort to introduce the Jeffersons, who were comedic black characters (somewhere between "Amos and Andy" and "In Living Color") but were so likable that even Bunker had to accept them. I think that's a long way from being a show that encouraged America toward racial bigotry.
Quote: DocIf you mean that the program promoted blatant racist comments about minorities and that in 1970 America ate that up, then that's not the way I recall "All in the Family" at all. .
Really? Try and find those episodes where Archie was at his race baiting best, they aren't anywhere on TV. All you see is the cleaner eps, and not very many of those. Most of the stuff Archie said is so un-PC now that they can't even air it.
Quote: teddysI will say this, though: Anybody who gets their ideas about society from television commercials is barking up the completely wrong tree.
What do you think the majority of Americans do, read Hemingway and Steinbeck in the evenings? They're glued to the big screen, it tells them what to eat, what to think and what to believe.
Quote: NareedVictimization envy is a very ugly thing.
Nareed, when you went to college, you weren't supposed to take all that Liberal pap they fed you seriously. Didn't you know that?
Quote: mkl654321What I really want to know is, why, in just about every Christian depiction of Jesus, does he look like he's completely stoned?
What about laughing Jesus?
Quote: WizardWhat about laughing Jesus?
I like a happy Jesus. Like the revamped one from "Dogma"
Quote: EvenBobNow you're getting close to the solution. Reality is the only way not to be racist.
No, the way to not be racist is to stop making a big deal about skin color. I look at the Dominoes pizza commercial and I think about pizza. You think about racism. I think that says more about your over-heightened racial sensibilities than it does about the pizza commercial. It's like the South Park episode about the town flag:
which the boys think shouldn't offend anyone because it shows killing, and killing has been around forever. Watch this clip from 1:40 (or not, if you're offended by South Park)
Quote: WizardWhat about laughing Jesus?
Well, he could still be stoned. I'd like to see at least one so-pissed-he'd-like to-strangle-somebody Jesus. Or even a scarfing-a-Double-Whopper Jesus.
Quote: WizardWhat about laughing Jesus?
Buddy Christ approves:
Quote: MathExtremistNo, the way to not be racist is to stop making a big deal about skin color.
Oh that's right, the only difference between the races is skin color huh. If it was only about appearance there would be issues between blonde haired, brown haired , short, and tall people.
Quote: clarkacalOh that's right, the only difference between the races is skin color huh.
Young kids of different colors seem to do just fine together, or at least as well as kids do anywhere. I believe it's generally the adults who fuck up their viewpoints either purposely, through ignorance, or neglect.
There was a nice little experiment where kids with certain eye colors were told they were clever and interesting, and others with a different color were to be considered dull and stupid. Did they come to their senses and realize there was no merit to the idea? No they ostracized the classmates with the supposed inferior eye color.
That's all it takes.
Supposedly when you're an adult, you're suppose to be more discerning. But I guess not.
Quote: MathExtremistI look at the Dominoes pizza commercial and I think about pizza. You think about racism. I think that says more about your over-heightened racial sensibilities than it does about the pizza commercial.
No, it says you're just what the advertiser is looking for, somebody who doesn't question anything put before him, you just let yourself be manipulated into whatever direction they're pushing you in. They don't want somebody like me, somebody who's see's thru their thinly veiled crapola.
Quote: EvenBobNo, it says you're just what the advertiser is looking for, somebody who doesn't question anything put before him, you just let yourself be manipulated into whatever direction they're pushing you in. They don't want somebody like me, somebody who's see's thru their thinly veiled crapola.
Bob, you can't write, you can't spell, and you say a LOT of really, really stupid things. If you want to see racism behind every tree, fine, but that doesn't mean it exists except in your own impaired, paranoid mind. I guess in your world, if three white people appear in a pizza commercial, that's "racist", but your world isn't the same world the rest of us inhabit. Perhaps you should find a message board to rant to in your own world.
Quote: EvenBobJust saw a Dominos Pizza commercial on TV. Out the door, carrying a pizza comes a Black guy. After him comes an Asian guy. After him comes a Mexican couple, carrying boxes of pizza. No White people at all. Is this an accident? Hardly. Somebody thought up every frame of this, including who's in it. If you asked the average Black, Asian or Mexican if this commercial offended them, they would say no. The average White would say no. But if it was all White people in the commercial, that would illicit totally different answers. Why is this modern version of racism any different from any other kind we had in the past. Looking at many commercials these days, you get the impression that White folks don't even live in America anymore.
I imagine that the majority of Domino's customers are minorities. They consititute almost 1/3 of Americans. And unless you are hypersensitive, most white people are not conscious of being excluded from a television ad. You might want to catch this DiGiornio's Ad making a racially based joke, and featuring the now famous Jim Parson's was the clueless white guy.
Quote: boymimboBut seriously, look at television shows. Take a look at the top 25 TV shows from last week and let me know which ones caters to minorities.
1 AMERICAN IDOL-WEDNESDAY
2 American Idol-THURSDAY
3 FOX AFC-NFC PRO BOWL(S)
4 OFFICE
5 Bones
6 HOUSE
7 Criminal Minds
8 Biggest Loser 11
9 TWO AND A HALF MEN
10 PARKS AND RECREATION
11 BACHELOR, THE
12 Extreme Makeover:HOME ED
13 Modern Family
14 MIKE & Molly
15 Lie To Me
16 30 Rock
17 Wipeout-THURS
18 CASTLE
19 NCIS
20 How I Met Your Mother
21 HALLMARK HALL OF FAME(S)
22 Big Bang Theory, THE
23 $#*! MY DAD SAYS
24 Rules of Engagement
25 COMMUNITY
I think "Cops" is the answer you're looking for. :)
Quote: rxwine
There was a nice little experiment where kids with certain eye colors were told they were clever and interesting, and others with a different color were to be considered dull and stupid. Did they come to their senses and realize there was no merit to the idea? No they ostracized the classmates with the supposed inferior eye color.
That's all it takes.
This is an interesting test. I wonder, what would happen if they did it slightly differently - instead of smart vs. stupid, tell green-eyed kids that they need to only get 50% of the answers right for a passing grade on a test, while all the others need, say, 80%, and also, that green eyes give you the right to cut the line in the cafeteria, and that they are the only ones who will be considered when filming promotional videos for the school.
I wonder if that would cause the "racial" differences between the groups to surface as well...
Quote: rxwineYoung kids of different colors seem to do just fine together, or at least as well as kids do anywhere. I believe it's generally the adults who fuck up their viewpoints either purposely, through ignorance, or neglect.
There was a nice little experiment where kids with certain eye colors were told they were clever and interesting, and others with a different color were to be considered dull and stupid. Did they come to their senses and realize there was no merit to the idea? No they ostracized the classmates with the supposed inferior eye color.
That's all it takes.
Supposedly when you're an adult, you're suppose to be more discerning. But I guess not.
I just don't see the merit in testing young children and then comparing it to the adult world. Adults can think for themselves and are who they are based on a lifetime of experiences. Left to themselves little children would piss themselves and eat candy all day.
Quote: clarkacalI just don't see the merit in testing young children and then comparing it to the adult world. Adults can think for themselves and are who they are based on a lifetime of experiences.
The merit is to isolate the particular reason triggering (in this case) racial tensions from the universe of all adult life experience.
Young kids do not have most of the experience an adult has, are racially tolerant. When you introduce one additional factor to their realm, that makes them intolerant, that tells you something about the causality between that single factor and racial intolerance.
Quote: clarkacalI just don't see the merit in testing young children and then comparing it to the adult world. Adults can think for themselves and are who they are based on a lifetime of experiences.
You should meet someday with car enthusiasts.
Quote: rxwineYoung kids of different colors seem to do just fine together, or at least as well as kids do anywhere. I believe it's generally the adults who fuck up their viewpoints either purposely, through ignorance, or neglect.
There was a nice little experiment where kids with certain eye colors were told they were clever and interesting, and others with a different color were to be considered dull and stupid. Did they come to their senses and realize there was no merit to the idea? No they ostracized the classmates with the supposed inferior eye color.
That's all it takes.
Supposedly when you're an adult, you're suppose to be more discerning. But I guess not.
I guess you jumped to the conclusion that because I said there are more differences between races than skin color I was saying certain races are inferior. What is good and bad, and what is inferior and superior? I'm just saying it does everyone a disservice to pretend there aren't more differences between us than skin color.
Quote: clarkacalI'm just saying it does everyone a disservice to pretend there aren't more differences between us than skin color.
What are they?
Can you name a few of the differences you have in mind that would be specifically racial, as opposed to cultural (that exist between Germans and French as well as between Americans and Canadians) or societal (such that a difference between myself and Bill Gates for example)?
Quote: weaselmanThe merit is to isolate the particular reason triggering (in this case) racial tensions from the universe of all adult life experience.
Young kids do not have most of the experience an adult has, are racially tolerant. When you introduce one additional factor to their realm, that makes them intolerant, that tells you something about the causality between that single factor and racial intolerance.
We already know children are blank slates and very impressionable. Once a person is older and forms their own opinions, what they did in kindergarten is irrelevant. The issue is in the young adult and adult world. So once again, what is the significance of this comparison? If we all were a product of what we are told everyone at this point would think that a 110 lb woman can beat up 3 200 lb men, things usually have a happy hollywood ending, and if you can count cards you will win every time and be rich.
Quote: weaselmanWhat are they?
Can you name a few of the differences you have in mind that would be specifically racial, as opposed to cultural (that exist between Germans and French as well as between Americans and Canadians) or societal (such that a difference between myself and Bill Gates for example)?
Sure. You can determine a persons racial background from a drop of blood. The trained eye can determine race from skeletal remains. Most people would agree that by just listening to a person's voice race can be determined (and I'm not talking about accents). These differences are not good or bad, but they are there. To pretend other's don't exist is ignorant but convenient. Stop trying to intimidate with your ivory tower racial egalitarianism. It won't work on me.
Quote: weaselmanThe merit is to isolate the particular reason triggering (in this case) racial tensions from the universe of all adult life experience.
Young kids do not have most of the experience an adult has, are racially tolerant. When you introduce one additional factor to their realm, that makes them intolerant, that tells you something about the causality between that single factor and racial intolerance.
I always thought racism was something completely learned as well, as opposed to something immutable (skin color, gender) or a "talent" (homosexuality, piano-playing, etc.).
At its core, I don't think people hate the race in-and-of itself. I think they need something to blame all their problems on and, for whatever reason (societal, personal, etc.), picked race as a scapegoat. I think there are lots of examples that follow this reasoning ... Hitler scapegoating Jews, etc.
It does become a little chicken-and-egg, though ... does the person have self-perceived problems that then get blamed on the race, or does he hate the race and then tries to justify the hate by assigning them horrible motive? I think the two are closely married and create a rapid downward spiral, but I think the problems lead to the hate. The hate comes from *somewhere*, but problems are innate (see also "nobody's perfect").
Quote: clarkacalI'm just saying it does everyone a disservice to pretend there aren't more differences between us than skin color.
Wow, that was entirely the opposite of the point. I wasn't saying that "racism is only about skin color", I was saying that focusing on a difference in skin color (or whatever other "differences between us" you want to lump in there) is the problem. It just goes to show that being predisposed to identifying "differences between us" means you're very likely going to find them. Sure, people are different. But that doesn't mean different = bad.
If you look at a pizza commercial with three actors of varying races, and you think "gee, that commercial is racist", then who's the racist really? The commercial director, or you?
Quote: clarkacalSure. You can determine a persons racial background from a drop of blood. The trained eye can determine race from skeletal remains. Most people would agree that by just listening to a person's voice race can be determined (and I'm not talking about accents). These differences are not good or bad, but they are there. To pretend other's don't exist is ignorant but convenient. Stop trying to intimidate with your ivory tower racial egalitarianism. It won't work on me.
I am not trying to intimidate you. My question was entirely genuine, I just wanted to know what differences you were talking about.
Now, that I got my answer, I can tell you, that in my opinion, everything you named is in a way the same as skin color. I think, when talking about race the term "skin color" is used in a rather vague sense as a collective definition, describing the set of "exterior" features you are describing.
The point is that all these features describe how you look (or sound), not who you are as a person. If you and I agree, that the skin color has no significance, then, it seems logical to also conclude that details of skeletal features, the hair color or overtones of the voice are insignificant too.
Frankly, I just fail to see what it is you find particularly "convenient" or "ignorant" in "pretending that differences in skeletal composition don't exist", why acknowledging the differences in skin color. All of these differences do exist of course, but the point is that they are all superficial. Your hair color or blood type is probably different from mine. So what?
Quote: weaselmanWhat are they?
Can you name a few of the differences you have in mind that would be specifically racial, as opposed to cultural (that exist between Germans and French as well as between Americans and Canadians) or societal (such that a difference between myself and Bill Gates for example)?
Statements like this always confused me. There are differences, to think there's not is ... ignorant.
I think differences should be embraced and enjoyed. Germans are different than Frenchmen. Africans are different than Asians are different than Europeans. Men are different from women. I know you mean cultural in some cases, but differences aren't limited to that, most obviously with men and women. So, in that sense, it can be said that our very existence is due to differences. I think that statement is true in more than just that sense.
I think there might be a quick equation of "different = inferior" on your part. The principal of natural selection implies that a species will adapt according to its surroundings. Since humans inhabited all sorts of different surroundings, it should not surprise that there are differences. Any perception of "different = inferior" comes from you (not Weaselman-you, but generic-you), meaning the problem doesn't lie with any differences.
