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Dyvan13
Dyvan13
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March 12th, 2023 at 12:51:26 PM permalink
It seems like to get ahold of SERIOUS EV opportunities - you have to be in the "know". You MUST have a network of like-minded AP's that you trade information with, and pool your bankrolls together to withstand nasty variance. With that being said, you also have to make sure you are trusting the right AP's and don't get defrauded. You also have to deal with casino's possibly weaseling their way out of paying you and mailer plays you've invested in vanishing without a trace.

Is all this time, stress, planning and networking even worth it? How hard is it to average a decent yearly income of say, $70,000 or more a year? It's like being an AP is essentially running your own business.

Why not put all this time and effort into a more traditional career path? There will be more stability and a much smaller chance of your income stream being cut overnight.

Or, like being a business owner, is it a matter of taking on calculated risks in an attempt to scale and earn a MUCH larger income than "working a regular job"?
darkoz
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March 12th, 2023 at 1:17:09 PM permalink
Quote: Dyvan13

It seems like to get ahold of SERIOUS EV opportunities - you have to be in the "know". You MUST have a network of like-minded AP's that you trade information with, and pool your bankrolls together to withstand nasty variance. With that being said, you also have to make sure you are trusting the right AP's and don't get defrauded. You also have to deal with casino's possibly weaseling their way out of paying you and mailer plays you've invested in vanishing without a trace.

Is all this time, stress, planning and networking even worth it? How hard is it to average a decent yearly income of say, $70,000 or more a year? It's like being an AP is essentially running your own business.

Why not put all this time and effort into a more traditional career path? There will be more stability and a much smaller chance of your income stream being cut overnight.

Or, like being a business owner, is it a matter of taking on calculated risks in an attempt to scale and earn a MUCH larger income than "working a regular job"?
link to original post



Every "regular job" I have had has gone out of business or laid off people.

During the pandemic shutdown everyone with regular jobs couldn't pay their bills. Me, I had a bankroll and backup funds precisely because AP work always faces sudden shutdowns.

I have to admit I cringed at all the adult babies crying how they were going to survive without pay. These are the same people who boast to me about how a regular job is more stable.

Welcome to my world lol! They all fell apart like the house of cards they had built.

Anyway, I make a lot more than $70,000 a year as an AP so it's possible if you find the right play. "In the know" well that's pretty much any lucrative situation.

I enjoy what I do and don't intend even considering going back to regular work.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
heatmap
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March 12th, 2023 at 6:56:55 PM permalink
i hate to go against darkoz because i see the merit in his journey here but the average man or woman is better off gaining a steady income and saving it rather than trying to rely on their own brains which is a bad idea

you have to know how to know how to do things and most people do not know how to know how.

work and live a steady life.

stop trying to take the easy way out
SOOPOO
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March 12th, 2023 at 7:27:16 PM permalink
How about doing both? If it turns out you are making so much more per hour or per day doing AP then you can consider quitting a ‘regular’ job. Or it might be right to just do AP part time.
darkoz
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March 12th, 2023 at 9:40:02 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

i hate to go against darkoz because i see the merit in his journey here but the average man or woman is better off gaining a steady income and saving it rather than trying to rely on their own brains which is a bad idea

you have to know how to know how to do things and most people do not know how to know how.

work and live a steady life.

stop trying to take the easy way out
link to original post



I agree in principle.

Unfortunately the average man or woman doesn't know how to save. The shutdown proved that. So many people lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't have enough for a rainy two weeks much less the 9 months long pandemic shutdown.

But my argument wasn't about what is wise. It was that the so-called "stable" job is just an illusion. There is no stable job.

Companies have layoffs, change in management, technology obsolescence.

I purchased a sonic mice and roach repellent. Place it in your wall socket and you will never have mice again. I was reading the reviews. Everyone was raving and then one review was one star. It was from an exterminator who said the product was hokum. That only traditional means of extermination will ever work and he was sad so many people were being ripped off.

Hmmm, well I brought the sonic repellent and it's been two years since I saw a mouse or roach. Yep technological obsolescence for everyone. Even exterminators.

Stable jobs. Science fiction.

I am closing in on having done Advantage Play as long as my last profession (killed due to technological obsolescence) so I just don't see why anyone would claim AP is so prone to shutdown.

If you know what you are doing, are professional enough you can make a great living even through the regular casino shutdowns of plays.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
SOOPOO
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March 14th, 2023 at 7:13:36 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

i hate to go against darkoz because i see the merit in his journey here but the average man or woman is better off gaining a steady income and saving it rather than trying to rely on their own brains which is a bad idea

you have to know how to know how to do things and most people do not know how to know how.

work and live a steady life.

stop trying to take the easy way out
link to original post



I agree in principle.

Unfortunately the average man or woman doesn't know how to save. The shutdown proved that. So many people lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't have enough for a rainy two weeks much less the 9 months long pandemic shutdown.

But my argument wasn't about what is wise. It was that the so-called "stable" job is just an illusion. There is no stable job.

Companies have layoffs, change in management, technology obsolescence.

I purchased a sonic mice and roach repellent. Place it in your wall socket and you will never have mice again. I was reading the reviews. Everyone was raving and then one review was one star. It was from an exterminator who said the product was hokum. That only traditional means of extermination will ever work and he was sad so many people were being ripped off.

Hmmm, well I brought the sonic repellent and it's been two years since I saw a mouse or roach. Yep technological obsolescence for everyone. Even exterminators.

Stable jobs. Science fiction.

I am closing in on having done Advantage Play as long as my last profession (killed due to technological obsolescence) so I just don't see why anyone would claim AP is so prone to shutdown.

If you know what you are doing, are professional enough you can make a great living even through the regular casino shutdowns of plays.
link to original post



I think there are lots of ‘stable’ jobs. I don’t mean that the specific job you hold might not be guaranteed, but there will always be a job for you. Get an RN degree and you will ALWAYS have a job. AZ mentions ‘the trades’ all the time.

I wouldn’t want the job of ‘Chief Diversity Officer’ at the Florida branch of the company I work for….
Seedvalue
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March 14th, 2023 at 7:43:37 AM permalink
Quote: Dyvan13

It seems like to get ahold of SERIOUS EV opportunities - you have to be in the "know". You MUST have a network of like-minded AP's that you trade information with, and pool your bankrolls together to withstand nasty variance. With that being said, you also have to make sure you are trusting the right AP's and don't get defrauded. You also have to deal with casino's possibly weaseling their way out of paying you and mailer plays you've invested in vanishing without a trace.

Is all this time, stress, planning and networking even worth it? How hard is it to average a decent yearly income of say, $70,000 or more a year? It's like being an AP is essentially running your own business.

Why not put all this time and effort into a more traditional career path? There will be more stability and a much smaller chance of your income stream being cut overnight.

Or, like being a business owner, is it a matter of taking on calculated risks in an attempt to scale and earn a MUCH larger income than "working a regular job"?
link to original post



If you are Close to Atlantic City I hear there is a Greek contingent
masquerading As slot hustlers but security working most likely for free with casino surveillance. That’s kind of like a stable job in AP if your into being someone who tells on others for money. That’s what the majority of failed APs end up doing anyway
100xOdds
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March 14th, 2023 at 10:12:47 AM permalink
Quote: Dyvan13

It seems like to get ahold of SERIOUS EV opportunities - you have to be in the "know". You MUST have a network of like-minded AP's that you trade information with, and pool your bankrolls together to withstand nasty variance. With that being said, you also have to make sure you are trusting the right AP's and don't get defrauded. You also have to deal with casino's possibly weaseling their way out of paying you and mailer plays you've invested in vanishing without a trace.

Is all this time, stress, planning and networking even worth it? How hard is it to average a decent yearly income of say, $70,000 or more a year? It's like being an AP is essentially running your own business.

Why not put all this time and effort into a more traditional career path? There will be more stability and a much smaller chance of your income stream being cut overnight.

Or, like being a business owner, is it a matter of taking on calculated risks in an attempt to scale and earn a MUCH larger income than "working a regular job"?
link to original post

$70k/yr for yourself WITH partners?

so you + 2 partners = $210k/yr?
i would say unlikely for the avg AP'er.

there's a husband + wife team at my local casino.
the wife is there full time. she picks up a few bucks here and there doing regal riches, the pig game, etc.
she won't play unless it's absolutely +ev (at least at the #s mentioned by the wiz's corresponding threads on these games, if not slightly higher).

the husband joins her in the late afternoon, presumably after his work.
He plays at slightly lower than wiz's recommendations.

i think the wife could make more $ working at starbucks at the state's minimum wage of $12+/hr and tips ($3/hr?).

the husband would be your problem being a full time AP'er.
i'm guessing his regular job allows him to absorb the loses of playing slightly -EV.
i'm betting he has more losing weeks than winning weeks but those winning weeks makes it seem worth it and/or the freeplay he gets.

there's also wealthy retired people playing for fun who notice us ap's and the #s we're playing at.
they undercut us by playing waaaay earlier like river dragons at $470 or $4850.

fortunately, these wealthy retired people only come once or twice a week.
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Mar 14, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
TheCapitalShip
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March 14th, 2023 at 10:49:24 AM permalink
I most likely don't really qualify to say anything on this stuff, but I shall put in my two cents anyway.

I think it really depends....as in anything else in life.

I for sure will agree with darkoz on the illusion of job security, even the most "secure" jobs at one point can be prone to a sudden shutdown, heck, look at the recent news and with all the big tech companies laying off people. I'd bet most of them working there were just sure that they would never have to worry about looking for another job.

One thing about being an AP that I think appeals to the people that do it, the independence, you don't have a boss breathing down your neck, you don't HAVE to wake up and get somewhere at a certain time (and I'm talking generally I understand certain opportunities may be on a time limit or whatever), I'm sure also with all the travelling around doing different opportunities no two days are the same. The "cat and mouse" game may also appeal to some for a little adrenaline perhaps. However, that independence can be a curse for some people, they may be better suited to just having a simple office job, or have a trade job, you certainly have to put in the work to find opportunities and do the networking.

Nobody said though you have to go for making 70k+ a year doing AP right out of the gate though, I am sure for some (and I want to wager most perhaps) it started out as a part time hobby, and eventually said "hobby" was offering them more money than their regular day job, and I feel people that turned into making APing their new "job" didn't really have to ask themselves if they wanted to do APing as their new job, they just went and did it because it made sense for them.

You can also just keep it as a "for fun" hobby in your past time, maybe you don't have the bankroll, the network, or both to do it full time, maybe you don't want to always be travelling everywhere for new opportunities, maybe you don't want to be constantly hanging out in a casino environment all the time. Maybe you just enjoy the less lucrative opportunities and aren't looking for the "big" ones. I feel like if you are asking yourself if you want to do AP "full time", you probably fall into the camp of just wanting to keep it as a hobby, of course any big decision such as that should be given lots of thought, but again, I feel like the people that do it full time don't really have to ask themselves whether they want to do it, it just makes sense for them to do it full time, and they WANT to do it and enjoy it.
Mental
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March 14th, 2023 at 10:53:15 AM permalink
The only person I know personally who APs in a B&M casino full time has o sleep in his car a lot and has trouble keeping up with his car payments.

Being an AP without good plays is like being a pirate in an ocean without ships. Are you really a pirate?

So, what would you bring to a partnership if you don't know where to find good plays already? Nobody is going to train you to go out and compete with them. The machine players employed by teams don't seem to be making anywhere near what you require. They spend most of their days walking and punching buttons.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
sevencard2003
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March 14th, 2023 at 12:32:37 PM permalink
what i dont understand is since a lot of those guys are homeless and making only 1.39 cents an hour, why they wont walk u thru the casino and teach u all the plays for $50. this would earn them far more money. instead they dont want to talk to u. also the fact most are wearing a mask make u hate them.

just learn how to beat BJ and poker and then u can always make money without having to worry about slot hustlers ruining it for u
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
PokerGrinder
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March 14th, 2023 at 3:50:45 PM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

what i dont understand is since a lot of those guys are homeless and making only 1.39 cents an hour, why they wont walk u thru the casino and teach u all the plays for $50. this would earn them far more money. instead they dont want to talk to u. also the fact most are wearing a mask make u hate them.

just learn how to beat BJ and poker and then u can always make money without having to worry about slot hustlers ruining it for u
link to original post



This is a laughable post from someone who regularly martingales 20% of his bankroll off degenning. Tony you should probably look in the mirror.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
ALG
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March 14th, 2023 at 4:49:53 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

The only person I know personally who APs in a B&M casino full time has o sleep in his car a lot and has trouble keeping up with his car payments.

Being an AP without good plays is like being a pirate in an ocean without ships. Are you really a pirate?

So, what would you bring to a partnership if you don't know where to find good plays already? Nobody is going to train you to go out and compete with them. The machine players employed by teams don't seem to be making anywhere near what you require. They spend most of their days walking and punching buttons.
link to original post




Exactly.

I think most "APs" are equivalent to starving artists. One of my locals has 50+ hustlers checking machines. I'd say maybe 3-5 make $70k/yr. The rest range from the homeless selling machines, degenerate teams living there 24/7, to the pretenders using their regal winnings on 88 fortunes because the pot is about to close. These people sleep in their cars, the smoke rooms, at machines, take turns getting rooms or their parents basement. Most of those people would be way better off getting a day job.

Very few people who call themselves "APs" are making a good living from the casino alone. That said it can be done and you don't need to be part of the Freemasons either. I've spent a lot of time trying to find these secret groups that have all the answers. But then when I'm watching a machine and the parade of checkers keep walking past me to check the Scarab I realize I probably don't need them anyway.
darkoz
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March 14th, 2023 at 5:13:27 PM permalink
Quote: ALG

Quote: Mental

The only person I know personally who APs in a B&M casino full time has o sleep in his car a lot and has trouble keeping up with his car payments.

Being an AP without good plays is like being a pirate in an ocean without ships. Are you really a pirate?

So, what would you bring to a partnership if you don't know where to find good plays already? Nobody is going to train you to go out and compete with them. The machine players employed by teams don't seem to be making anywhere near what you require. They spend most of their days walking and punching buttons.
link to original post




Exactly.

I think most "APs" are equivalent to starving artists. One of my locals has 50+ hustlers checking machines. I'd say maybe 3-5 make $70k/yr. The rest range from the homeless selling machines, degenerate teams living there 24/7, to the pretenders using their regal winnings on 88 fortunes because the pot is about to close. These people sleep in their cars, the smoke rooms, at machines, take turns getting rooms or their parents basement. Most of those people would be way better off getting a day job.

Very few people who call themselves "APs" are making a good living from the casino alone. That said it can be done and you don't need to be part of the Freemasons either. I've spent a lot of time trying to find these secret groups that have all the answers. But then when I'm watching a machine and the parade of checkers keep walking past me to check the Scarab I realize I probably don't need them anyway.
link to original post



The AP's you are observing are the low level hustlers who don't even stress being observed

The top level AP's who make a killing are probably seated right next to you and you didn't know it.

If you don't know the valuable plays you won't recognize when someone is doing it in front of you. And the top pros are about being clandestine.

And the reverse is true too. Occasionally I will peep someone working a play and be surprised that a fellow AP is within sight. You will be surprised how easy it is to pick out the pros when you yourself are a pro.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
ALG
ALG
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March 14th, 2023 at 5:56:37 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: ALG

Quote: Mental

The only person I know personally who APs in a B&M casino full time has o sleep in his car a lot and has trouble keeping up with his car payments.

Being an AP without good plays is like being a pirate in an ocean without ships. Are you really a pirate?

So, what would you bring to a partnership if you don't know where to find good plays already? Nobody is going to train you to go out and compete with them. The machine players employed by teams don't seem to be making anywhere near what you require. They spend most of their days walking and punching buttons.
link to original post




Exactly.

I think most "APs" are equivalent to starving artists. One of my locals has 50+ hustlers checking machines. I'd say maybe 3-5 make $70k/yr. The rest range from the homeless selling machines, degenerate teams living there 24/7, to the pretenders using their regal winnings on 88 fortunes because the pot is about to close. These people sleep in their cars, the smoke rooms, at machines, take turns getting rooms or their parents basement. Most of those people would be way better off getting a day job.

Very few people who call themselves "APs" are making a good living from the casino alone. That said it can be done and you don't need to be part of the Freemasons either. I've spent a lot of time trying to find these secret groups that have all the answers. But then when I'm watching a machine and the parade of checkers keep walking past me to check the Scarab I realize I probably don't need them anyway.
link to original post



The AP's you are observing are the low level hustlers who don't even stress being observed

The top level AP's who make a killing are probably seated right next to you and you didn't know it.

If you don't know the valuable plays you won't recognize when someone is doing it in front of you. And the top pros are about being clandestine.

And the reverse is true too. Occasionally I will peep someone working a play and be surprised that a fellow AP is within sight. You will be surprised how easy it is to pick out the pros when you yourself are a pro.
link to original post



You're right it doesn't take long to tell who the real pros vs. all the other people walking around.
gordonm888
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March 14th, 2023 at 9:12:46 PM permalink
Regarding being a poker pro, one of my favorite jokes is:

How do you get a poker pro off your front steps?

Pay for the pizza


You can make money at poker, but game selection is very important. And volatility is brutal. And expenses (travel, places to sleep, etc.) can eat you alive, same as AP.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
AxelWolf
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March 15th, 2023 at 1:39:07 AM permalink
I wasn't around before the 90's, However, I know people that were APing in the late '70s and 80's that did well. 3 of those guys started known well-organized Video poker/slot teams. Red, Fisher, and Robertson. There were others as well.

There's never been a time from the late 70s until Now where AP'ING WASN'T WORTH IT ANYMORE.

Obviously, there are always things that dry up or change and occasionally slow periods, especially if you're only doing a few types of things.

P.S. VP isn't as dead as people think.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
PokerGrinder
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March 15th, 2023 at 3:24:41 AM permalink
Axel the people that think AP is dead and not worth it are the people that don’t know how to do it properly.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
Seedvalue
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March 15th, 2023 at 4:31:40 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I wasn't around before the 90's, However, I know people that were APing in the late '70s and 80's that did well. 3 of those guys started known well-organized Video poker/slot teams. Red, Fisher, and Robertson. There were others as well.

There's never been a time from the late 70s until Now where AP'ING WASN'T WORTH IT ANYMORE.

Obviously, there are always things that dry up or change and occasionally slow periods, especially if you're only doing a few types of things.

P.S. VP isn't as dead as people think.
link to original post



I doubt OP has the bankroll to play VP to make 70k a year.

OP Learn blackjack there are enough casinos and games in the country to play that 70k would be easy enough if you take it seriously.

Slots depend on to many things and you need to be in the casino many many more hours. You have teams of guys that live at the machines and spend the majority of their time snapping photos of every new guy who shows up. Spend a day just observing these guys and ask yourself if that’s what you want to do. Many of them have no family or their wives left them. Playing blackjack or other table games gives you more control over what you can earn
lilredrooster
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March 15th, 2023 at 4:59:03 AM permalink
.

it's been a quite a while since I counted down BJ - I got away with it for a long time but my top bet was not big

I'm curious - aren't they going to toss out or just shuffle up on any AP making sizeable bets now_____?

and what about comps____?____ would you have a player's card and be asking for comps if you were a BJ AP making big bets____?

I never had a card or got any comps

.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Mar 15, 2023
Please don't feed the trolls
SOOPOO
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PokerGrinder
March 15th, 2023 at 5:23:45 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Axel the people that think AP is dead and not worth it are the people that don’t know how to do it properly.
link to original post



This. What they really mean is they haven’t figured out how to do it successfully.

I get the same response when I tell certain people about beating the online sports books. If they can’t figure out how to do it it must not be true!

I think all you need to do, PG, is keep posting trip reports from all over the world, all paid for without a ‘real job’!
DRich
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:28:39 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

.

it's been a quite a while since I counted down BJ - I got away with it for a long time but my top bet was not big

I'm curious - aren't they going to toss out or just shuffle up on any AP making sizeable bets now_____?

and what about comps____?____ would you have a player's card and be asking for comps if you were a BJ AP making big bets____?

I never had a card or got any comps

.
link to original post



From my perspective the way to be a professional counter and get away with it is to just keep your sessions short. Play for a half hour or 45 minutes and move on to the next casino.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
SOOPOO
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:35:51 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

.

it's been a quite a while since I counted down BJ - I got away with it for a long time but my top bet was not big

I'm curious - aren't they going to toss out or just shuffle up on any AP making sizeable bets now_____?

and what about comps____?____ would you have a player's card and be asking for comps if you were a BJ AP making big bets____?

I never had a card or got any comps

.
link to original post



You are asking basically….. how do you do it successfully!

There are dozens of threads here that discuss bet sizing, session limiting, when to play with a card and when not to, cover plays, etc…. KEWLJ gave a bunch of details on how he did it and how much he made. All believable to me.

As far as the ‘comps’, if you mean ‘everything I get from the casino due to me playing’ DarkOz, as an example, has delineated that free play earned, at certain times, through certain promotions, is enough to make a good living. He’s given a few specific examples.

I was a teeny bit skeptical of the scale at which you can AP a casino. Mostly because of my lack of knowledge. I spent a few hours with Axel one day and he showed me a FEW easy examples of opportunities. It can be done, if you prepare properly and put the effort in. Sort of like most things in life…
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:45:56 AM permalink
snapping photos of people without their permission in a society which everyone was treated as they should be treated would get these people violently physically assualted in the casino. we are way too PC.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
lilredrooster
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:47:49 AM permalink
.


yeah, I've read quite a few of KewlJ's posts at different places

in the last one I saw he stated his top bet was $1K

for me - his story is really hard to believe - that he can get away with this for so long

all of the big casinos have to know who he is - and they're going to let him keep beating up on them endlessly______?

I guess it's possible - but the Managers at these casinos are not stupid - it would seem they would have to be for his stories to all be true

he started posting here in 2012 - I wanna here about this from somebody else

it's now getting close to 50 years of casino experience with counters


.
Please don't feed the trolls
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:48:13 AM permalink
of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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Joined: Aug 16, 2011
March 15th, 2023 at 5:49:20 AM permalink
i quoted someones elses post but it didnt print his post, only mine. the guy was asking about if u should use a card at BJ.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 5:56:46 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

.


yeah, I've read quite a few of KewlJ's posts at different places

in the last one I saw he stated his top bet was $1K

for me - his story is really hard to believe - that he can get away with this for so long

all of the big casinos have to know who he is - and they're going to let him keep beating up on them endlessly______?

I guess it's possible - but the Managers at these casinos are not stupid - it would seem they would have to be for his stories to all be true

he started posting here in 2012 - I wanna here about this from somebody else

it's now getting close to 50 years of casino experience with counters


.
link to original post



what people forget is that the vast majority of card counters who gamble for a living lose heavily and this is why so many casinos dont care if they are counting or not.

me, when i am counting, they dont realize im counting and dont mind me playing, (except for about 10 out of 800 casinos in the USA who told me i can only play other games but not BJ) because i only play 6 or 8 decks, never 1 or 2, never take insurance regardless of the count, and never split tens, and never raise the bet unless i lose the prior hand, regardless of the count. do these things and they wont know u are counting, but then again, there goes most of your edge.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
  • Threads: 15
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Joined: Aug 16, 2011
March 15th, 2023 at 5:58:11 AM permalink
if anyone wants a great AP opportunity that i have no interest in, the hex at the Pioneer this morning has the cat in the middle on the 5th row. but since that horseshoe never hits i sure aint doing it.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
billryan
billryan
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Joined: Nov 2, 2009
March 15th, 2023 at 7:32:07 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Axel the people that think AP is dead and not worth it are the people that don’t know how to do it properly.
link to original post




Those people are 100% right. APing is a thing of the past. If you have any interest in APing, study the past as it is dead dead dead.
Nothing to see here, move along.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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March 15th, 2023 at 8:32:59 AM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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Joined: Apr 30, 2015
March 15th, 2023 at 8:34:38 AM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: lilredrooster

.


yeah, I've read quite a few of KewlJ's posts at different places

in the last one I saw he stated his top bet was $1K

for me - his story is really hard to believe - that he can get away with this for so long

all of the big casinos have to know who he is - and they're going to let him keep beating up on them endlessly______?

I guess it's possible - but the Managers at these casinos are not stupid - it would seem they would have to be for his stories to all be true

he started posting here in 2012 - I wanna here about this from somebody else

it's now getting close to 50 years of casino experience with counters


.
link to original post



what people forget is that the vast majority of card counters who gamble for a living lose heavily and this is why so many casinos dont care if they are counting or not.

me, when i am counting, they dont realize im counting and dont mind me playing, (except for about 10 out of 800 casinos in the USA who told me i can only play other games but not BJ) because i only play 6 or 8 decks, never 1 or 2, never take insurance regardless of the count, and never split tens, and never raise the bet unless i lose the prior hand, regardless of the count. do these things and they wont know u are counting, but then again, there goes most of your edge.
link to original post



So you don’t you use indices and you don’t raise your bet based on the count… so you’re not counting lol. You forgot to add in the ever so amazing martingale method that you use.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
billryan
billryan
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Thanked by
PokerGrinder
March 15th, 2023 at 8:38:20 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
link to original post



Lose money on every play, but make it up with volume. That sounds like a plan.
The only thing better than having a plan is having a good one.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Mental
Mental
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March 15th, 2023 at 8:41:24 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

So you don’t you use indices and you don’t raise your bet based on the count… so you’re not counting lol. You forgot to add in the ever so amazing martingale method that you use.
link to original post

He is a pirate who has never boarded a merchant ship and stolen the cargo. But, he has an eye patch, a parrot, and a jolly roger so he is definitely a pirate.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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March 15th, 2023 at 9:01:58 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
link to original post



Lose money on every play, but make it up with volume. That sounds like a plan.
The only thing better than having a plan is having a good one.
link to original post



Don’t forget the free rooms he gets which make him an overall better winner lol…
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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Joined: Apr 30, 2015
March 15th, 2023 at 9:03:44 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: PokerGrinder

So you don’t you use indices and you don’t raise your bet based on the count… so you’re not counting lol. You forgot to add in the ever so amazing martingale method that you use.
link to original post

He is a pirate who has never boarded a merchant ship and stolen the cargo. But, he has an eye patch, a parrot, and a jolly roger so he is definitely a pirate.
link to original post


I love this post so much, touché sir.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 10:26:47 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: lilredrooster

.


yeah, I've read quite a few of KewlJ's posts at different places

in the last one I saw he stated his top bet was $1K

for me - his story is really hard to believe - that he can get away with this for so long

all of the big casinos have to know who he is - and they're going to let him keep beating up on them endlessly______?

I guess it's possible - but the Managers at these casinos are not stupid - it would seem they would have to be for his stories to all be true

he started posting here in 2012 - I wanna here about this from somebody else

it's now getting close to 50 years of casino experience with counters


.
link to original post



what people forget is that the vast majority of card counters who gamble for a living lose heavily and this is why so many casinos dont care if they are counting or not.

me, when i am counting, they dont realize im counting and dont mind me playing, (except for about 10 out of 800 casinos in the USA who told me i can only play other games but not BJ) because i only play 6 or 8 decks, never 1 or 2, never take insurance regardless of the count, and never split tens, and never raise the bet unless i lose the prior hand, regardless of the count. do these things and they wont know u are counting, but then again, there goes most of your edge.
link to original post



So you don’t you use indices and you don’t raise your bet based on the count… so you’re not counting lol. You forgot to add in the ever so amazing martingale method that you use.
link to original post



doesnt matter if u use the count to decide how much to bet, as long as u know exactly what the count is at all times and use it to decide whether to hit or stand 12 v 3, 16 v 10, etc, u are still counting. but it sure does a good job of making it difficult for the pit to tell u are counting. also i only start doubling the bets if the counts plus til i win a unit and start over. if its negative i just keep flat betting or wonging out if theres 1 other player at my table.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 10:28:29 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
link to original post



Lose money on every play, but make it up with volume. That sounds like a plan.
The only thing better than having a plan is having a good one.
link to original post



had i won i mightve got the same offer. if not, i was still essentially either winning $5000-6000 worth of bets or getting a third to a half of it eventually returned some months down the road. so i was freerolling them.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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Joined: Apr 30, 2015
March 15th, 2023 at 11:50:18 AM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: lilredrooster

.


yeah, I've read quite a few of KewlJ's posts at different places

in the last one I saw he stated his top bet was $1K

for me - his story is really hard to believe - that he can get away with this for so long

all of the big casinos have to know who he is - and they're going to let him keep beating up on them endlessly______?

I guess it's possible - but the Managers at these casinos are not stupid - it would seem they would have to be for his stories to all be true

he started posting here in 2012 - I wanna here about this from somebody else

it's now getting close to 50 years of casino experience with counters


.
link to original post



what people forget is that the vast majority of card counters who gamble for a living lose heavily and this is why so many casinos dont care if they are counting or not.

me, when i am counting, they dont realize im counting and dont mind me playing, (except for about 10 out of 800 casinos in the USA who told me i can only play other games but not BJ) because i only play 6 or 8 decks, never 1 or 2, never take insurance regardless of the count, and never split tens, and never raise the bet unless i lose the prior hand, regardless of the count. do these things and they wont know u are counting, but then again, there goes most of your edge.
link to original post



So you don’t you use indices and you don’t raise your bet based on the count… so you’re not counting lol. You forgot to add in the ever so amazing martingale method that you use.
link to original post



doesnt matter if u use the count to decide how much to bet, as long as u know exactly what the count is at all times and use it to decide whether to hit or stand 12 v 3, 16 v 10, etc, u are still counting. but it sure does a good job of making it difficult for the pit to tell u are counting. also i only start doubling the bets if the counts plus til i win a unit and start over. if its negative i just keep flat betting or wonging out if theres 1 other player at my table.
link to original post



Great you’re counting with literally zero edge Tony… 🤷‍♂️

As far as you thinking you’re freerolling the casino where you lost $6k that’s hilarious. Trust me your action will be good there forever, they love you.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 15th, 2023 at 12:03:54 PM permalink
Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 12:10:58 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
link to original post



i actually didnt get the full use of the promotion. since i dont have a valid address, i didnt find out til too late and i only got part of the last half of the month. sure wish i couldve done the entire month. but thats actually the 2nd time a casino sent an offer like this. other place was Hollywood st louis for 150 multiple times throughout the month before i got banned at all hollywood properties.

if i knew upfront and had a chance to plan, id book my airbnb in the city which would give me the offer and play there the entire month, (mostly the coupons, and during the rest of the time just play poker, preferably a different casino). but u have no way to know ahead of time which casino will give u a great offer like this and which wont, or u would know exactly where to visit for the sole purpose of playing live BJ
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
March 15th, 2023 at 12:21:34 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
link to original post



Lose money on every play, but make it up with volume. That sounds like a plan.
The only thing better than having a plan is having a good one.
link to original post

Volume would be great here, you'll get closer to the expected EV on the game and make more money too. Imagine back counting and coming in with a large bet 30 different times and getting 30 different offers @ +EV for each of those bets. Whenever you lose you get back approximately 50%. Whenever you win, you win.

That's not how I would approach this situation, but that's clear and easy to understand.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
March 15th, 2023 at 12:34:11 PM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: billryan

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: sevencard2003

of course u use a card. thats where a big part of the payback comes. for example, go to Ballys shreveport if u have never had a card there before since it changed ownership from the eldorado. lose $5000-6000 and leave, dont come back for months and u might get the same mail offer i did offering $300 free bet 17 times during the month. (that coupon is worth slightly less than half its face value)
link to original post


Wow amazing ap play there Tony. Lose $5-6k and get back $5100 in free bets that are worth half their value…
link to original post



Lose money on every play, but make it up with volume. That sounds like a plan.
The only thing better than having a plan is having a good one.
link to original post



Don’t forget the free rooms he gets which make him an overall better winner lol…
link to original post

It comes with RFB too? Isn't Tony a nomad, that's a big savings ontop of the +EV. It's looking better and better.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
March 15th, 2023 at 12:45:07 PM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: AxelWolf

Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
link to original post



i actually didnt get the full use of the promotion. since i dont have a valid address, i didnt find out til too late and i only got part of the last half of the month. sure wish i couldve done the entire month. but thats actually the 2nd time a casino sent an offer like this. other place was Hollywood st louis for 150 multiple times throughout the month before i got banned at all hollywood properties.

if i knew upfront and had a chance to plan, id book my airbnb in the city which would give me the offer and play there the entire month, (mostly the coupons, and during the rest of the time just play poker, preferably a different casino). but u have no way to know ahead of time which casino will give u a great offer like this and which wont, or u would know exactly where to visit for the sole purpose of playing live BJ
link to original post

Dude WTF!!! You haven't figured out how to solve that problem after all these years?
Here are 3 inexpensive options.
1)Get an online P.O. box that will take pictures of your mail/offers when requested and even alert you whenever the mail comes in.
2)Get P.O. box that will forward your mail.
3)Pay A friend who will let you use their address and take pictures of the mail.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
  • Threads: 15
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Joined: Aug 16, 2011
March 15th, 2023 at 12:51:26 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: AxelWolf

Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
link to original post



i actually didnt get the full use of the promotion. since i dont have a valid address, i didnt find out til too late and i only got part of the last half of the month. sure wish i couldve done the entire month. but thats actually the 2nd time a casino sent an offer like this. other place was Hollywood st louis for 150 multiple times throughout the month before i got banned at all hollywood properties.

if i knew upfront and had a chance to plan, id book my airbnb in the city which would give me the offer and play there the entire month, (mostly the coupons, and during the rest of the time just play poker, preferably a different casino). but u have no way to know ahead of time which casino will give u a great offer like this and which wont, or u would know exactly where to visit for the sole purpose of playing live BJ
link to original post

Dude WTF!!! You haven't figured out how to solve that problem after all these years?
Here are 3 inexpensive options.
1)Get an online P.O. box that will take pictures of your mail/offers when requested and even alert you whenever the mail comes in.
2)Get P.O. box that will forward your mail.
3)Pay A friend who will let you use their address and take pictures of the mail.
link to original post



i have one guy who forwards me pictures of offers, but sometimes the mail gets sent back since im not actually living there and sometimes it gets thru. but usually casinos just copy and paste the address on your ID and u dont even realize its being sent to an adddress u will never get a thing at. i have no idea what most casinos are using for my address. this is why i think casinos should do email instead of PO mail offers. unlike a street address, an email stays with you for LIFE and never changes.
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
sevencard2003
sevencard2003
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March 15th, 2023 at 12:54:41 PM permalink
because he took a picture and sent it to me, i found out i get $20 at boomtown slot play every day in March but fridays and i get $40 on fridays. thats 31 different free play offers and ive never got anything near that valuable at boomtown but im not in reno to pick it up and even if i was it costs more to Uber there and back than the 20 or 40 a day is worth. useless unless a local with a car can pick it up
sevencard2003.blogspot.com
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 15th, 2023 at 1:04:58 PM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

because he took a picture and sent it to me, i found out i get $20 at boomtown slot play every day in March but fridays and i get $40 on fridays. thats 31 different free play offers and ive never got anything near that valuable at boomtown but im not in reno to pick it up and even if i was it costs more to Uber there and back than the 20 or 40 a day is worth. useless unless a local with a car can pick it up
link to original post

Get a full-service PO box at a location you spend most of your time at and whatever state your ID is from. Have your mailing address added to the ID. Leave off the P.O. Box. IE 2121 Sevencard BLVD #21

Alternatively, get a passport thus forcing them to manually put in whatever address you tell them. That's your best option giving you the freedom to have mail sent wherever you want. You can get a passport ID card that fits in your wallet.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
March 15th, 2023 at 1:07:38 PM permalink
Quote: sevencard2003

because he took a picture and sent it to me, i found out i get $20 at boomtown slot play every day in March but fridays and i get $40 on fridays. thats 31 different free play offers and ive never got anything near that valuable at boomtown but im not in reno to pick it up and even if i was it costs more to Uber there and back than the 20 or 40 a day is worth. useless unless a local with a car can pick it up
link to original post

Nathan/Karen rides the bus to pick up $5 in FP.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz 
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Joined: Dec 22, 2009
March 15th, 2023 at 1:12:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: AxelWolf

Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
link to original post



i actually didnt get the full use of the promotion. since i dont have a valid address, i didnt find out til too late and i only got part of the last half of the month. sure wish i couldve done the entire month. but thats actually the 2nd time a casino sent an offer like this. other place was Hollywood st louis for 150 multiple times throughout the month before i got banned at all hollywood properties.

if i knew upfront and had a chance to plan, id book my airbnb in the city which would give me the offer and play there the entire month, (mostly the coupons, and during the rest of the time just play poker, preferably a different casino). but u have no way to know ahead of time which casino will give u a great offer like this and which wont, or u would know exactly where to visit for the sole purpose of playing live BJ
link to original post

Dude WTF!!! You haven't figured out how to solve that problem after all these years?
Here are 3 inexpensive options.
1)Get an online P.O. box that will take pictures of your mail/offers when requested and even alert you whenever the mail comes in.
2)Get P.O. box that will forward your mail.
3)Pay A friend who will let you use their address and take pictures of the mail.
link to original post



How about just logging into your players account online and checking your offers

Why make this hard?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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Dieter
March 15th, 2023 at 2:13:41 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: sevencard2003

Quote: AxelWolf

Why are you guys busting on Tony regarding that AP situation? It's absolutely +EV.

It's like getting a 50% loss rebate, that's hugely profitable.

Obviously, it's time-consuming doing 17 trips back, and there is better stuff, but you guys are not looking at it the right way. It's unlikely he is taking full advantage of the true potential or doing it correctly.
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i actually didnt get the full use of the promotion. since i dont have a valid address, i didnt find out til too late and i only got part of the last half of the month. sure wish i couldve done the entire month. but thats actually the 2nd time a casino sent an offer like this. other place was Hollywood st louis for 150 multiple times throughout the month before i got banned at all hollywood properties.

if i knew upfront and had a chance to plan, id book my airbnb in the city which would give me the offer and play there the entire month, (mostly the coupons, and during the rest of the time just play poker, preferably a different casino). but u have no way to know ahead of time which casino will give u a great offer like this and which wont, or u would know exactly where to visit for the sole purpose of playing live BJ
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Dude WTF!!! You haven't figured out how to solve that problem after all these years?
Here are 3 inexpensive options.
1)Get an online P.O. box that will take pictures of your mail/offers when requested and even alert you whenever the mail comes in.
2)Get P.O. box that will forward your mail.
3)Pay A friend who will let you use their address and take pictures of the mail.
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How about just logging into your players account online and checking your offers

Why make this hard?
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Not all have that setup and even ones that do oftentimes send out bonus offerings etc via snail mail, ones that don't show up online or come via E-mail.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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