Why do casinos let well known APs play?
Quote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
Quote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
What he means (unless he corrects me) is that you could pull the card when it was advantageous and the card would not record the wager or outcome. The card didn't record that Information until the outcome was completed.
But nowadays there would be no "reward" for pulling the card early as the card remains linked to the wager from the moment the button was pushed
Quote: darkozQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
What he means (unless he corrects me) is that you could pull the card when it was advantageous and the card would not record the wager or outcome. The card didn't record that Information until the outcome was completed.
But nowadays there would be no "reward" for pulling the card early as the card remains linked to the wager from the moment the button was pushed
link to original post
Yep, some casinos are still like this (the old way) then. I know of at least 2
Quote: IWannaBeAPQuote: darkozQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
What he means (unless he corrects me) is that you could pull the card when it was advantageous and the card would not record the wager or outcome. The card didn't record that Information until the outcome was completed.
But nowadays there would be no "reward" for pulling the card early as the card remains linked to the wager from the moment the button was pushed
link to original post
Yep, some casinos are still like this (the old way) then. I know of at least 2
link to original post
Now that's something I would recommend not discussing openly here.
You already may have said too much. Advantage players on here will probably be scouring your posts to find a hint of where you play so they can bombard your location.
That's a highly sought after and rare opportunity.
Quote: darkozQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
What he means (unless he corrects me) is that you could pull the card when it was advantageous and the card would not record the wager or outcome. The card didn't record that Information until the outcome was completed.
But nowadays there would be no "reward" for pulling the card early as the card remains linked to the wager from the moment the button was pushed
link to original post
Close. The card would record the wager or coin-in because that was already added to the meter. When the card was pulled it would report the current meters which would not include the win because the win doesn't happen until the game concludes. Most of the modern systems will wait to record the card out event until the current game has concluded which will include any win for that game.
Quote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
I would not be surprised at all if some casinos still have older systems that do not wait until the game concludes to report the meters.
Quote: billryanWhile it never happened, I was always afraid of what would happen if I got a handpay on someone else's card. I'd pull the cards whenever I got four to a Royal but was always worried about the dealt Royal. It was one of the reasons I usually stuck to VBJ when doing that.
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So you were a multicarder?
Is that why you always attack my posts. Because what I do didn't work out for you?
According to you, bitcoin should be about 100K, your lemonlabob would have saved civilization, and we'd all be millionaires by following your investment advice. I posted you had no idea what you were talking about, and I'll let the results speak for themselves. BC is sub 20,000, and your precious lemonlabob stock can be bought for a couple of recycled soda bottles.
My multi-carding experiment went just fine. I just realized there were better ways in which I want to spend my life. I was invited to re-join my old team a few weeks ago, and passed. Vegas was a great period in my life, a nice transition from NYC, and I'll return soon to see my friends, but gambling and being a casino parasite isn't my idea of a fulfilling life.
I'm not sure why I bothered responding because even if you take the time to read this, it won't sink in.
Quote: billryanHave you ever considered the reason I attack your posts is that you brought a fake cure for covid to other boards, insisted you know more about the science than people who actually study these things, and then did the same thing with bitcoin- insisting it was the most secure currency and was scam proof? Every cautionary post I put out about bitcoin at $60,000 was met with ridicule by you, insisting it was the best thing since free internet porn.
According to you, bitcoin should be about 100K, your lemonlabob would have saved civilization, and we'd all be millionaires by following your investment advice. I posted you had no idea what you were talking about, and I'll let the results speak for themselves. BC is sub 20,000, and your precious lemonlabob stock can be bought for a couple of recycled soda bottles.
My multi-carding experiment went just fine. I just realized there were better ways in which I want to spend my life. I was invited to re-join my old team a few weeks ago, and passed. Vegas was a great period in my life, a nice transition from NYC, and I'll return soon to see my friends, but gambling and being a casino parasite isn't my idea of a fulfilling life.
I'm not sure why I bothered responding because even if you take the time to read this, it won't sink in.
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I knew there was a reason, despite disagreeing with you 50% of the time, that I wanted you back! I am going to BEG DarkOz NOT to hijack this thread by responding.
It was clear from BR’s post that he multicarded. There was no reason to ask him if he multicarded. Other than to add the inflammatory comment which led to Billy’s eloquent response.
Let’s get back to talking about why casinos are unable to prevent AP’s from winning against them easily and consistently.
I don't think the casino cares if Jhonny Rocker or Bob Dancer hits it. In BJ, a skilled player can take the casino's money. A skilled VP player is only taking money the casino has already decided to pay out as the cost of business. Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off, whereas Anthony Curtis sitting down at a BJ table certainly will change the casino's expectations.
Quote: SOOPOO
Let’s get back to talking about why casinos are unable to prevent AP’s from winning against them easily and consistently.
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Care to restate that?
Quote: billryanIn my view, video poker is set up based on a cycle. Over the long term, a RF will hit roughly every fortysomething thousand hands.
I don't think the casino cares if Jhonny Rocker or Bob Dancer hits it. In BJ, a skilled player can take the casino's money. A skilled VP player is only taking money the casino has already decided to pay out as the cost of business. Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off, whereas Anthony Curtis sitting down at a BJ table certainly will change the casino's expectations.
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Well said.
Quote: billryanIn my view, video poker is set up based on a cycle. Over the long term, a RF will hit roughly every fortysomething thousand hands.
I don't think the casino cares if Jhonny Rocker or Bob Dancer hits it. In BJ, a skilled player can take the casino's money. A skilled VP player is only taking money the casino has already decided to pay out as the cost of business. Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off, whereas Anthony Curtis sitting down at a BJ table certainly will change the casino's expectations.
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"Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off" Of course it does - assuming we're comparing Bob Dancer to a novice who often guesses incorrectly which cards to hold and therefore often loses out on opportunities to hit big hands.
The casino would much prefer to pay a jackpot to a splashy tourist than a professional gambler. The pro is only going to be playing the best pay tables and always playing optimally, giving the casino a razor thin edge. He is also going to be in there milking the comp system, vulturing machines, playing progressives at an advantage, etc.
A gambler doesn't have to be playing a game at an actual advantage over the house to be a net negative for the casino. Someone who just plays VP optimally and earns player points is costing the casino money when considering the casino resources the player consumes - electricity, paper, ink, the time of accountants, cashiers, marketers, etc.
Quote: JackSpadeQuote: billryanIn my view, video poker is set up based on a cycle. Over the long term, a RF will hit roughly every fortysomething thousand hands.
I don't think the casino cares if Jhonny Rocker or Bob Dancer hits it. In BJ, a skilled player can take the casino's money. A skilled VP player is only taking money the casino has already decided to pay out as the cost of business. Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off, whereas Anthony Curtis sitting down at a BJ table certainly will change the casino's expectations.
link to original post
"Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off" Of course it does - assuming we're comparing Bob Dancer to a novice who often guesses incorrectly which cards to hold and therefore often loses out on opportunities to hit big hands.
The casino would much prefer to pay a jackpot to a splashy tourist than a professional gambler. The pro is only going to be playing the best pay tables and always playing optimally, giving the casino a razor thin edge. He is also going to be in there milking the comp system, vulturing machines, playing progressives at an advantage, etc.
A gambler doesn't have to be playing a game at an actual advantage over the house to be a net negative for the casino. Someone who just plays VP optimally and earns player points is costing the casino money when considering the casino resources the player consumes - electricity, paper, ink, the time of accountants, cashiers, marketers, etc.
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This. I play -EV Pai Gow. Rarely play the bonus. If so for $1. Casino maybe makes $5 an hour off of me? If everyone played like I do they close. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Answering Alan. I have seen a few of the APs here show me what they do. To just be a winner is quite easy. To be a winner enough to call it a job and provide a good living not so easy, but very doable. I’m sure if I wanted to, it wouldn’t be difficult to get to low 6 figures a year. If doing it as a full time job.
For example, they brag about how many cameras they have and they catch everything on camera.
But cameras aren't intelligent beings. Unless someone watches them and sees something nothing happens.
Usually it's 2-5 surveillance for 2500 cameras.
Also understand it's just a job to them. When the employees go home they are thinking about their families and next meal.
An AP lives the life. He's contemplating his next move and how to outwit the Casinos all day long.
Because generally he enjoys it.
Quote: JackSpadeQuote: billryanIn my view, video poker is set up based on a cycle. Over the long term, a RF will hit roughly every fortysomething thousand hands.
I don't think the casino cares if Jhonny Rocker or Bob Dancer hits it. In BJ, a skilled player can take the casino's money. A skilled VP player is only taking money the casino has already decided to pay out as the cost of business. Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off, whereas Anthony Curtis sitting down at a BJ table certainly will change the casino's expectations.
link to original post
"Bob Dancer sitting down at a machine doesn't change the odds of the machine paying off" Of course it does - assuming we're comparing Bob Dancer to a novice who often guesses incorrectly which cards to hold and therefore often loses out on opportunities to hit big hands.
The casino would much prefer to pay a jackpot to a splashy tourist than a professional gambler. The pro is only going to be playing the best pay tables and always playing optimally, giving the casino a razor thin edge. He is also going to be in there milking the comp system, vulturing machines, playing progressives at an advantage, etc.
A gambler doesn't have to be playing a game at an actual advantage over the house to be a net negative for the casino. Someone who just plays VP optimally and earns player points is costing the casino money when considering the casino resources the player consumes - electricity, paper, ink, the time of accountants, cashiers, marketers, etc.
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What happens when an AP hits a 100K jackpot? Not much. They pull out a book and wait to get paid. Then they continue playing so the casino knows that 100K will go back into the machines.
What happens when Judy from Sheepshead Bay hits 100K? She goes nuts, gets a big check and the casino watches her fly home with most of their money.
I don't think the casino worries about someone knowing the right play. Having played hundreds of thousands of hands on simulators, the difference in value between perfect play and your basic players is pennies per hand. If I were running a casino, I certainly want my big jackpots hit by a regular who will keep playing than by a tourists who ends up buying a new kitchen. Your views may differ.
Quote: billryan
What happens when an AP hits a 100K jackpot? Not much. They pull out a book and wait to get paid. Then they continue playing so the casino knows that 100K will go back into the machines.
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An AP plays with an advantage. That means the casino is at a disadvantage if an AP decides to put 100K into its machines. The casino would prefer it if the AP spent his jackpot at a Lamborghini dealership.
Quote: JackSpadeQuote: billryan
What happens when an AP hits a 100K jackpot? Not much. They pull out a book and wait to get paid. Then they continue playing so the casino knows that 100K will go back into the machines.
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An AP plays with an advantage. That means the casino is at a disadvantage if an AP decides to put 100K into its machines. The casino would prefer it if the AP spent his jackpot at a Lamborghini dealership.
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Is that a 10 year old car with 100k miles?
tuttigym
Quote: JackSpadeOkay, so maybe $100K could still buy a new Cadillac. Or a Chevy.
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Whoa whoa whoa.
After taxes, down to $65,000
Quote: ChumpChangeNobody answered. Deleted.
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What was the question?
CZR comps slots twice as much as VP. Some B&M casinos have a higher ratio. Online casinos usually have play-thru requirements that are 10 times higher for VP than slots. They give comps and points at a 4-10x rate for slots versus VP. I like that I can just put slots on auto-play and do something interesting. With VP, BJ, UTHE, etc. I have to pay attention and do a lot of mouse clicks. I don't like it when a promo forces me to play VP or BJ, but if the EV is there I will do it grudgingly. Live-dealer BJ is horrible online. You can be heads up with a dealer for one spot and then two bozos will show up and take five spots for table minimums. With internet delays and their stupid play, they can really slow things to a crawl. Almost all my coin in is on slots.Quote: MDawgQuote: darkoz
My strategy is to play only slots. And in particular slots with extremely BAD EV. I generally lose thousands per card this way.link to original post
As I have always said, generally, slots are for losers. But somehow you've managed to overcome all those losses with free play, where even though you lose on all that free play too, the net overcomes the over all loss.
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If darkoz has a choice between grinding $1 VP for hours or pounding a $100 slot, I am sure he factors in a decent value for his time.
Quote: darkozThe Casinos do try to stop AP's but they just don't have the manpower. They do have the resources but not the manpower.
For example, they brag about how many cameras they have and they catch everything on camera.
But cameras aren't intelligent beings. Unless someone watches them and sees something nothing happens.
Usually it's 2-5 surveillance for 2500 cameras.
Very true. The surveillance guys are just doing random spot checks in most cases around the slot machines unless someone has asked them to look at something specifically. Table games are generally watched but not necessarily intently unless something triggers them. Obviously the main purpose of having the cameras is to go back in time and look at things after the fact. Isn't one of this forums members a surveillance guy? If so, he would know a lot more than me.
One of the first surveillance projects I worked on was triggering a camera to specifically point to a slot machine when the door opened on it. This was back in the late 1990's I think when the Harrah's New Orleans opened.
Quote: JackSpadeThe casino would prefer it if the AP spent his jackpot at a Lamborghini dealership.
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The only way a casino would want a jackpot winner to buy a Lamborghini is if the casino owned the dealership.
Go back to BillRyans post. He has it right.
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
But Martha from Michigan will take the money home.
The AP will not know to get up because it's just one long session for him.
Right? It's one long session.
Quote: AlanMendelson[
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
You are 100% wrong on that.
Quote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelson[
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
You are 100% wrong on that.
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Hell, he's 200% wrong on that!
Quote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelson[
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
You are 100% wrong on that.
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I understand casinos don't want APs vulturing progressives and must hit by machines but why would a casino rather have a tourist leave with the money rather than someone who funnels millions thru the machines? What am I missing?
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelson[
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
You are 100% wrong on that.
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I understand casinos don't want APs vulturing progressives and must hit by machines but why would a casino rather have a tourist leave with the money rather than someone who funnels millions thru the machines? What am I missing?
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You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
In their eyes a player who gets lucky is just part of the bottom line. But one who is doing advantageous play is AFFECTING their bottom line.
Plus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
And failing that the Casino get huge publicity from the fact someone got lucky which is magnetic for the other ploppies even if the actual winner never returns
Meanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
At some level of management, the bottom line matters a lot, either through equity incentives or through benchmarks. The shareholders want us to lose money and spend more money on overpriced drinks, food, and merch. These people should not want an AP to win a jackpot. AP's are a direct cash drain and also impose large costs while taking cash out of the enterprise.
The idea that ploppies will take the money back home and APs will keep it local is ridiculous. APs travel all over looking for an edge. Ploppies largely go back to the same few properties
Finally, some comments here are APs talking their book. They hope to convince casinos that that APs are fairly benign by making up fairy tales.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelson[
Casinos have no problems with APs winning on machines. Someone has to win on machines. If it's an AP or its Martha from Michigan it's the same money.
You are 100% wrong on that.
link to original post
I understand casinos don't want APs vulturing progressives and must hit by machines but why would a casino rather have a tourist leave with the money rather than someone who funnels millions thru the machines? What am I missing?
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You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
In their eyes a player who gets lucky is just part of the bottom line. But one who is doing advantageous play is AFFECTING their bottom line.
Plus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
And failing that the Casino get huge publicity from the fact someone got lucky which is magnetic for the other ploppies even if the actual winner never returns
Meanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
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Hokus pokus. If Dancer has a 1% edge over the casinos playing VP how many millions of dollars must he play thru to walk out with a million?
Last time I looked 1% on $1million was $10,000.
And how many times has Dancer had a million dollar win?
Quote: DRichTo put it simply, ploppies will lose it back eventually and AP's won't.
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This is where your AP argument falls apart... the infallibility of APs.
Quote: darkoz
You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
With a 1% edge? Nice trick.
Quote: darkozPlus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
Mailers and offers? The same thing APs need to have their edge.
Quote: darkozMeanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
Except when they lose.
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
With a 1% edge? Nice trick.Quote: darkozPlus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
Mailers and offers? The same thing APs need to have their edge.Quote: darkozMeanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
Except when they lose.
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If you think it's only a 1% edge then you don't understand anything you have read here for the last several months.
Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
With a 1% edge? Nice trick.Quote: darkozPlus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
Mailers and offers? The same thing APs need to have their edge.Quote: darkozMeanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
Except when they lose.
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If you think it's only a 1% edge then you don't understand anything you have read here for the last several months.
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Really? People have more than a 1% edge playing video poker or blackjack?
Quote: JackSpadeOr an AP just happens to walk by a machine primed to pay out a $10,000 progressive jackpot to the next player who is willing to risk $5,000.
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What???????
Quote: AlanMendelsonModerator fix this quote please. Another glitch.
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I think I deleted the appropriate tag in each element of the series to fix the nesting to appropriate. I did not reorder the text blocks, so the arrangement is a bit nonstandard.
Quote: darkozQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: darkozQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: DRich
Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.
link to original post
By "Reward" do you mean count them as losses?
I think I know some casinos that still is that way.
link to original post
What he means (unless he corrects me) is that you could pull the card when it was advantageous and the card would not record the wager or outcome. The card didn't record that Information until the outcome was completed.
But nowadays there would be no "reward" for pulling the card early as the card remains linked to the wager from the moment the button was pushed
link to original post
Yep, some casinos are still like this (the old way) then. I know of at least 2
link to original post
Now that's something I would recommend not discussing openly here.
You already may have said too much. Advantage players on here will probably be scouring your posts to find a hint of where you play so they can bombard your location.
That's a highly sought after and rare opportunity.
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You're right, I need to edit this out, but I don't see the edit button for some strange reason. Help?
Quote: IWannaBeAPYou're right, I need to edit this out, but I don't see the edit button for some strange reason. Help?
link to original post
Edit functionality disappears after an initial opportunity to fix typos in a post.
Assume you have minutes or hours to amend, not fortnights or scores.
Quote: JackSpadeI am referring (for example) to Ainsworth must-hit progressive slots.
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Of course there's only ONE machine linked to this progressive.
Right?
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: JackSpadeI am referring (for example) to Ainsworth must-hit progressive slots.
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Of course there's only ONE machine linked to this progressive.
Right?
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Ab so effing lutely.
It's like you are just determined to speak on matters you have no knowledge of
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
With a 1% edge? Nice trick.Quote: darkozPlus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
Mailers and offers? The same thing APs need to have their edge.Quote: darkozMeanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
Except when they lose.
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If you think it's only a 1% edge then you don't understand anything you have read here for the last several months.
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Really? People have more than a 1% edge playing video poker or blackjack?
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When playing with free play, why do you need any edge? If you sit down at a machine with $400 in free play, what sort of an edge do you need to walk away ahead?
Quote: billryanQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
You are missing that an AP is funneling millions through the machines to walk out with millions more.
With a 1% edge? Nice trick.Quote: darkozPlus the lucky Ploppy can probably be wooed back with mailers and offers to lose it all back.
Mailers and offers? The same thing APs need to have their edge.Quote: darkozMeanwhile the AP keeps in the shadows. Leaves with the money and delivers nothing of worth to the casino.
Except when they lose.
link to original post
link to original post
If you think it's only a 1% edge then you don't understand anything you have read here for the last several months.
link to original post
Really? People have more than a 1% edge playing video poker or blackjack?
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When playing with free play, why do you need any edge? If you sit down at a machine with $400 in free play, what sort of an edge do you need to walk away ahead?
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For true Freeplay I agree.
Most Freeplay is earned so the edge needs to be the amount of the turnover minus the investment.
But it damn sure is better than 1% in most cases.
Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: JackSpadeI am referring (for example) to Ainsworth must-hit progressive slots.
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Of course there's only ONE machine linked to this progressive.
Right?
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Ab so effing lutely.
It's like you are just determined to speak on matters you have no knowledge of
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I'd like to see this ab so effing lutely single machine progressive.
I see lots of must hit jackpot machines... but they all have multiple machines linked in.
That keeps the gamble in the game.
