Why do casinos let well known APs play?

First of all I'm not talking about blackjack.

This is mostly regarding promotions combined with video poker. Although I can see it being possible with other games as well.

In online casinos, if you AP their promotions, you get bonus banned quite quickly.

Why don't land casinos do the same?


The most common form of AP that I often hear people do is low HE video poker during a promotion, which makes the game positive. Sometimes, including the comps is necessary to make the game +EV but the casino comps the AP anyway.

First of all it should be extremely easy to detect a video poker AP. All they have to do is to look at the people who play way too much (what kind of recreational player sits at a VP machine for 10 hours in a day?), check if the game is low HE, check their play accuracy (A professional video poker player should have nearly 100%). And they can easily spot every single one of the pro VP players.

Not only that, but they let people who are EXTREMELY well known in the AP community play. Some of these people are in this very forums. Many of them have literally written books on how to AP casinos. Their names are no secrets. Databasing them and banning them should be a piece of cake.


I'm seriously wondering why land casinos allow professional video pokers to exist, given how easy it is to catch them. I don't understand why their policy towards blackjack is so different than their policy towards video poker. Online casinos have absolutely no tolerance to AP'ing. So why do land casinos allow people who have written books on how to beat the casino, to continue to play in the casino?

One possible reason is they may have no legal grounds to stop them from playing.

Quote: billryan

One possible reason is they may have no legal grounds to stop them from playing.
link to original post

But they do that for blackjack already?

Also if they revoke comps/promotions of the well known AP (equivalent to bonus ban in online casinos) it would kill 95%+ of the non-blackjack AP plays.

I think many land based casinos already do this. I know that at times I have lost my club privileges at many casinos. Sometimes they just get "No-mailed" and lose all promotions.

The casino player tracking systems that I have developed have always had a "no-mail" option that would exclude players from promotions when they were generated.

Quote: DRich

I think many land based casinos already do this. I know that at times I have lost my club privileges at many casinos. Sometimes they just get "No-mailed" and lose all promotions.

The casino player tracking systems that I have developed have always had a "no-mail" option that would exclude players from promotions when they were generated.
link to original post

How could that be? Don't DO and Seed continue their merry AP ways to this day? Perhaps the Vegas sites do the above, but I am guessing the "independent" casinos have not caught up somehow.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: DRich

I think many land based casinos already do this. I know that at times I have lost my club privileges at many casinos. Sometimes they just get "No-mailed" and lose all promotions.

The casino player tracking systems that I have developed have always had a "no-mail" option that would exclude players from promotions when they were generated.
link to original post

How could that be? Don't DO and Seed continue their merry AP ways to this day? Perhaps the Vegas sites do the above, but I am guessing the "independent" casinos have not caught up somehow.

tuttigym
link to original post

I can assure you that Darkoz' personal card being no-mailed would have, at most, a minimal impact on him. That's assuming he even has one in his own name. I haven't read enough of Seed's posts to really offer comment there.

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: billryan

One possible reason is they may have no legal grounds to stop them from playing.
link to original post

But they do that for blackjack already?

link to original post

There is a lot of legal precedent for AP on blackjack being allowed to continue play. The work around for blackjack is they change the rules; anything from forcing flat bets to preventing mid shoe entry to cutting down on deck penetration.

Slot AP is harder to react to, in my opinion.

Quote: AitchTheLetter

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: billryan

One possible reason is they may have no legal grounds to stop them from playing.
link to original post

But they do that for blackjack already?

link to original post

There is a lot of legal precedent for AP on blackjack being allowed to continue play. The work around for blackjack is they change the rules; anything from forcing flat bets to preventing mid shoe entry to cutting down on deck penetration.

Slot AP is harder to react to, in my opinion.
link to original post

The one thing that I will always maintain is, similarly to people who think they can count cards, but actually can't, the casinos make more money off of people who think they are slot/VP AP's than they lose to people who actually are those things. Beyond that, even some people who people would look at and describe as, "AP's,' can often have significant holes such that they just lose back everything that they ever won on +EV games on negative EV ones anyway.

If you have someone like a Bob Dancer who's really open about it, for example, let him go and have his 1-2% edge if you're the South Point. My tendency is to think they let him teach the classes, etc, because they know that most people who come out of them (despite Dancer's best efforts) either won't be playing a positive game at all, or will offset any positive play with a disproportionate amount of -EV play on other things.

I tend to think casinos either don't put much thought into the machines or want to strike some sort of balance. People going on these sorts of sites, Facebook, Twitter, etc., and talking about AP is a net positive for casinos, in my opinion, in that it encourages other people to try it.

It would be easy to make a casino AP proof if they wanted to do that, but most seem not to. I could have a casino completely AP-proof in the matter of a few hours if they did everything I said, but it would come at a great cost of not attracting as many casual players or disenfranchising some of them with poor offers (if any), so it's something of a balance.

I definitely wouldn't go the Blackjack route and overspend human resources as well as equipment costs to combat AP's who aren't really hurting you 99% of the time. Spend a dime not to let them have a penny EV, that sort of thing. That said, there is a balance to be struck on the machine side and casinos would do well for themselves to get rid of certain types of AP's who are really pummeling them, of course, they can be a bit hard to detect even when you're trying.

EDIT TO ADD: I shouldn't have said, "Hard to detect." They'd actually be pretty easy to detect, but for certain types of AP you'd have to be going to the camera, etc., for players (particularly new ones) fitting certain parameters of play and it would take a lot of time and effort. When it comes to the type of play that I'm talking about, by the time the casino even realizes anything is going on, they've usually already been hammered pretty significantly.

Yes, one of my favorite gaming/casino authors, Bill Zender says that he thinks most AP, especially blackjack AP, tend to overestimate their skill/bankroll or both. Most blackjack AP, especially the smaller fish tend to lack the guts to put the big bet out when the count demands it.

The thing casinos have to realize is that APs can be inadvertent shills for the casino since other players see them winning but don't understand why.

One reason casinos allow known AP's to play is they follow what they do and play. For example, if they put out a new game and the machine is pounded by AP's, then maybe they set it to a pay table that is too generous. If a promotion gets too much interest from AP's, they might consider changing the rules or just canceling it. In other words, AP's let casinos know where they are making mistakes.

Yikes a lot to this reply so here goes including one of my anti-casino-anti-AP tricks (read that as my countermeasures to their countermeasures)

VP on promotion days. First there's nothing wrong with playing those days. It's not the same as card counting which is technically against their rules (although not the law).

I.E. if the casino felt it was against the rules to only play on promo days then that probably would cause a lot of recreational players to be hit. THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE PROMOTIONAL DAYS IS TO WOO IN CUSTOMERS WHO MIGHT NOT NORMALLY SHOW. It isn't to be generous.

And basically this is the problem the Casinos have with all their promotions. Stop them and it's bad for business. That positive outweighs the negatives of being AP'd.

I do use my own player's card until it's turned off. Every Casino tolerance is different. I have experienced the full range. Literally zero to never.

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

That said, I DON'T EVEN DO VP for comps. Some people have theorized that's what I do. Try to lose the least while getting the most comps.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

My strategy is to play only slots. And in particular slots with extremely BAD EV. I generally lose thousands per card this way.

Why?

1: Time. Every Casino is different but I know a few places I can get done is as little as five minutes. I can literally set up twenty cards in an afternoon.

2: Camo. Unless the Casinos are prepared to start shutting off promos for big slots losers, they can't stop me

Their only recourse is to wait until the offers start getting taken and even then they don't necessarily want to shut off what might be a good customer who just took their Freeplay one afternoon.

So VP AP being targeted by Casino surveillance would have zero effect on me.

Quote: Mission146

It would be easy to make a casino AP proof if they wanted to do that, but most seem not to. I could have a casino completely AP-proof in the matter of a few hours if they did everything I said, but it would come at a great cost of not attracting as many casual players or disenfranchising some of them with poor offers (if any), so it's something of a balance.

You hit the nail on the head. It is all about a balance between limiting AP's and not discouraging ploppies.

Quote: Wizard

One reason casinos allow known AP's to play is they follow what they do and play. For example, if they put out a new game and the machine is pounded by AP's, then maybe they set it to a pay table that is too generous.
link to original post

after many years, my local casino has downgraded one bank of river dragons to 88%.
and another bank to 86%.

from trial and error, people used to take the Major at $4880 because competition.
they learned they can still eek out a few hundred $ profit (basically all from the $490+ minor) plus lots of points towards tier level.
yes, they can (and have) lose 4figures.

lets see what the new play point is with 88% and 86%.

Quote: darkoz

My strategy is to play only slots. And in particular slots with extremely BAD EV. I generally lose thousands per card this way.


link to original post

As I have always said, generally, slots are for losers. But somehow you've managed to overcome all those losses with free play, where even though you lose on all that free play too, the net overcomes the over all loss.

A push is a win when using free play, so VBJ is the way to go.

Quote: billryan

A push is a win when using free play, so VBJ is the way to go.
link to original post

Absolutely correct.

However freeplay isn't available on VBJ at all locations.

Some simply don't have VBJ.

Others make freeplay unusable.

But VBJ is the way to go if available for Freeplay usage.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

A push is a win when using free play, so VBJ is the way to go.
link to original post

Absolutely correct.

However freeplay isn't available on VBJ at all locations.
Some simply don't have VBJ.
Others make freeplay unusable.

But VBJ is the way to go if available for Freeplay usage.
link to original post

um.. i use freeplay on ap opportunities

I use to get free play every month, not anymore but I still play. I get bonus promos, like double triple pts. Fortunately I still get around $500 promo chips each month, but the craps or UTH table has been rough this past month.

Quote: darkoz

VP on promotion days. First there's nothing wrong with playing those days.
link to original post

Station casinos are infamous for no-mailing players, as evidenced by adding them to the DNI* list, who play mainly video poker on the best pay tables and the most generous multiplier days only. I am an illustrated example.

If I ran a casino, I would do the same thing.

* DNI = Do Not Invite

Quote: Wizard

Quote: darkoz

VP on promotion days. First there's nothing wrong with playing those days.
link to original post

Station casinos are infamous for no-mailing players, as evidenced by adding them to the DNI* list, who play mainly video poker on the best pay tables and the most generous multiplier days only. I am an illustrated example.

If I ran a casino, I would do the same thing.

* DNI = Do Not Invite
link to original post

Yeah I get it but theoretically they are doing it backwards.

It's the equivalent of telling shoppers at the supermarket that if they only shop with discount coupons to get the best deal which the supermarket offers then they are bad customers for accepting the wonderful deals the supermarket offers to just get their business.

One wonders how many legit patrons who just like the added value of promotion days were DNI and how much Station Casinos has shot itself in the foot.

Quote: darkoz

One wonders how many legit patrons who just like the added value of promotion days were DNI and how much Station Casinos has shot itself in the foot.
link to original post

The average recreational player plays on 1x days sometimes and/or not the best video poker. I'm sure there are some false positives and false negatives.

The bottom line is casinos know about advantage play too and to varying degrees try to get rid of players who are not profitable.

Quote: darkoz

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

link to original post

Pardon me, but isn't playing on someone else's player's card super illegal?

Quote: KatrinaO

Quote: darkoz

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

link to original post

Pardon me, but isn't playing on someone else's player's card super illegal?
link to original post

We went through this discussion before.

Yes, playing on someone else's card probably violates the casino's rules.

But illegal?

I went through Nevada's gaming regulations and I found NO MENTION of playing on someone else's card as being illegal.

The situation in other states may be different.

I lost my offers at a casino in California when I played on my son's card. I was not charged with any crime but lost my offers.

Why do casinos let APs play? Maybe it's because the APs aren't as good as they think they are.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: KatrinaO

Quote: darkoz

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

link to original post

Pardon me, but isn't playing on someone else's player's card super illegal?
link to original post

We went through this discussion before.

Yes, playing on someone else's card probably violates the casino's rules.

But illegal?

I went through Nevada's gaming regulations and I found NO MENTION of playing on someone else's card as being illegal.

The situation in other states may be different.

I lost my offers at a casino in California when I played on my son's card. I was not charged with any crime but lost my offers.

Why do casinos let APs play? Maybe it's because the APs aren't as good as they think they are.
link to original post

If you got in trouble for playing on 1 other person's card, I wonder how darkoz gets away with 50 people's cards.

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: KatrinaO

Quote: darkoz

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

link to original post

Pardon me, but isn't playing on someone else's player's card super illegal?
link to original post

We went through this discussion before.

Yes, playing on someone else's card probably violates the casino's rules.

But illegal?

I went through Nevada's gaming regulations and I found NO MENTION of playing on someone else's card as being illegal.

The situation in other states may be different.

I lost my offers at a casino in California when I played on my son's card. I was not charged with any crime but lost my offers.

Why do casinos let APs play? Maybe it's because the APs aren't as good as they think they are.
link to original post

If you got in trouble for playing on 1 other person's card, I wonder how darkoz gets away with 50 people's cards.
link to original post

If you had the AP super decoder ring you would know that.

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: KatrinaO

Quote: darkoz

Zero - card issued, I gambled, got nothing, complained, was informed based on outside (other Casino) information I would not be comped. (Notice they had no qualms about taking my money first so please ask why I should have any qualms about taking theirs). And yes I usually get it back by bringing in hundreds of people to get cards for my team to play. Big deal.

Never - I actually have cards where I know they have me flagged and I still have offers on my own personal cards. And no I have no idea why.

link to original post

Pardon me, but isn't playing on someone else's player's card super illegal?
link to original post

We went through this discussion before.

Yes, playing on someone else's card probably violates the casino's rules.

But illegal?

I went through Nevada's gaming regulations and I found NO MENTION of playing on someone else's card as being illegal.

The situation in other states may be different.

I lost my offers at a casino in California when I played on my son's card. I was not charged with any crime but lost my offers.

Why do casinos let APs play? Maybe it's because the APs aren't as good as they think they are.
link to original post

If you got in trouble for playing on 1 other person's card, I wonder how darkoz gets away with 50 people's cards.
link to original post

Alan would have to explain how he got caught using his sons card. The Casinos don't zoom in on names of every card inserted into a slot reader.

I have been caught with many cards at once and had them all pin locked. Tens of thousands of potential profit from Freeplay lost in the matter of an afternoon.

But every Casino is different and every time I have had a situation I learn what not to do next time so as to stay under the radar.

There is also a bit of nonchalant bravery in that I know I don't break any laws and so most Casinos can only shut me down financially. Without fear of criminal charges I get pretty brazen.

Quote: darkoz

Without fear of criminal charges I get pretty brazen.
link to original post

Heck, even with the threat (however misguided and incorrect) of them, you get brazen. The part in your thread about using the old man mask at a casino you had been kicked out of once after they caught you with a bunch of cards was pretty brazen and funny.

Every modern casino allows hosts and managers and surveillance to "see" the cards inserted in machines.

Case in point: some years ago right after my transplant my cell phone was accidentally turned off. My wife couldn't reach me and was worried. She called Caesars and asked to speak to Security. Security goes onto their system and immediately found the VP machine I was playing and the next thing I knew there were two paramedics standing over me asking if I was okay.

Hosts monitor your play using the same system.

Add in the eye in the sky and they can see if the same person is using multiple cards.

But if you're playing in Dumbfux Pennsylvania maybe they dont have the system Caesars had 15 years ago... as hard as it is to believe they don't.

It seems the AP crowd here can play their teams at will with reckless abandon.

Must be the secret decoder rings.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Every modern casino allows hosts and managers and surveillance to "see" the cards inserted in machines.

Case in point: some years ago right after my transplant my cell phone was accidentally turned off. My wife couldn't reach me and was worried. She called Caesars and asked to speak to Security. Security goes onto their system and immediately found the VP machine I was playing and the next thing I knew there were two paramedics standing over me asking if I was okay.

Hosts monitor your play using the same system.

Add in the eye in the sky and they can see if the same person is using multiple cards.

But if you're playing in Dumbfux Pennsylvania maybe they dont have the system Caesars had 15 years ago... as hard as it is to believe they don't.

It seems the AP crowd here can play their teams at will with reckless abandon.

Must be the secret decoder rings.
link to original post

As someone who has designed casino player tracking systems used in 100's of thousands of slot machines I can tell you exactly how they work if you have specific questions.

I was running a progression on the PL (on Bubble Craps) and got to my highest bet yet (of the night) then came the 7-out and I lost my bet. Immediately the screen for my card said to "Call The Attendant!" & "Credits Left In The Game!" I usually just ignore that and remove my card & reinsert it. But I wonder what is going on in the back room to cause that. Are they flashing me to quit after a hot roll? Seems like it. Or it could just be a coincidental glitch in the system.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AlanMendelson

Every modern casino allows hosts and managers and surveillance to "see" the cards inserted in machines.

Case in point: some years ago right after my transplant my cell phone was accidentally turned off. My wife couldn't reach me and was worried. She called Caesars and asked to speak to Security. Security goes onto their system and immediately found the VP machine I was playing and the next thing I knew there were two paramedics standing over me asking if I was okay.

Hosts monitor your play using the same system.

Add in the eye in the sky and they can see if the same person is using multiple cards.

But if you're playing in Dumbfux Pennsylvania maybe they dont have the system Caesars had 15 years ago... as hard as it is to believe they don't.

It seems the AP crowd here can play their teams at will with reckless abandon.

Must be the secret decoder rings.
link to original post

As someone who has designed casino player tracking systems used in 100's of thousands of slot machines I can tell you exactly how they work if you have specific questions.
link to original post

I'll be in Vegas this Tuesday. Which machines should I play?

The ones that just had a hand pay. They're sure to hit again...sometime.

Quote: billryan

I'll be in Vegas this Tuesday. Which machines should I play?

The ones that are winning.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Wizard

Quote: darkoz

VP on promotion days. First there's nothing wrong with playing those days.
link to original post

Station casinos are infamous for no-mailing players, as evidenced by adding them to the DNI* list, who play mainly video poker on the best pay tables and the most generous multiplier days only. I am an illustrated example.

If I ran a casino, I would do the same thing.

* DNI = Do Not Invite
link to original post

Yeah I get it but theoretically they are doing it backwards.

It's the equivalent of telling shoppers at the supermarket that if they only shop with discount coupons to get the best deal which the supermarket offers then they are bad customers for accepting the wonderful deals the supermarket offers to just get their business.

One wonders how many legit patrons who just like the added value of promotion days were DNI and how much Station Casinos has shot itself in the foot.
link to original post

darkoz,

Your grocery store analogy is a bit flawed: no one goes to the grocery store, buys a bunch of food, and then returns home with the food and more money than when he went shopping. Everybody "loses" (i.e., comes home with less money) when grocery shopping, but an AP on average "wins" at the casino, as you yourself know well.

Dog Hand

There was extreme couponing at stores 10-20 years ago. If you can't get $100 of groceries for free, you're not doing it right.
I find I like to buy things of higher quality than these tightwads and the friendship will not survive.

Quote: DogHand

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Wizard

Quote: darkoz

VP on promotion days. First there's nothing wrong with playing those days.
link to original post

Station casinos are infamous for no-mailing players, as evidenced by adding them to the DNI* list, who play mainly video poker on the best pay tables and the most generous multiplier days only. I am an illustrated example.

If I ran a casino, I would do the same thing.

* DNI = Do Not Invite
link to original post

Yeah I get it but theoretically they are doing it backwards.

It's the equivalent of telling shoppers at the supermarket that if they only shop with discount coupons to get the best deal which the supermarket offers then they are bad customers for accepting the wonderful deals the supermarket offers to just get their business.

One wonders how many legit patrons who just like the added value of promotion days were DNI and how much Station Casinos has shot itself in the foot.
link to original post

darkoz,

Your grocery store analogy is a bit flawed: no one goes to the grocery store, buys a bunch of food, and then returns home with the food and more money than when he went shopping. Everybody "loses" (i.e., comes home with less money) when grocery shopping, but an AP on average "wins" at the casino, as you yourself know well.

Dog Hand
link to original post

First extreme couponers as they are known actually have purchased a thousand dollars in items and after applying the combinations of coupons the STORE OWED THEM MONEY.

Look it up!

Secondly I don't buy into the whole "you are paying for your entertainment" theory that LOSING patrons and Casinos spout. That's BS

What you really are paying for is your CHANCE at winning. With odds that are always against you.

And all I do is even the odds a bit.

What makes me special? Well, the Casino wants my money. I want theirs. What makes them special is my question.

Yeah they got employees. So do I. They got families. So do I.

Education? So they give a portion to education. No one, no Ploppy ever entered a casino saying"Gee I hope I donate to the state education fund today".

Everyone hopes they are responsible for depleting the education fund (I e they win money that day) AND everyone tries to win. They just do stuff that doesn't work like saying hail Marys.

I just happened to figure out a way to win that actually works.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Every modern casino allows hosts and managers and surveillance to "see" the cards inserted in machines.

Case in point: some years ago right after my transplant my cell phone was accidentally turned off. My wife couldn't reach me and was worried. She called Caesars and asked to speak to Security. Security goes onto their system and immediately found the VP machine I was playing and the next thing I knew there were two paramedics standing over me asking if I was okay.

Hosts monitor your play using the same system.

Add in the eye in the sky and they can see if the same person is using multiple cards.

But if you're playing in Dumbfux Pennsylvania maybe they dont have the system Caesars had 15 years ago... as hard as it is to believe they don't.

It seems the AP crowd here can play their teams at will with reckless abandon.

Must be the secret decoder rings.
link to original post

This reply is the reason people get so angry with you Alan.

You seem to only read the parts of replies that will allow you to give snarky but WRONG replies.

Case in point. I stated that I have had situations where ALL my cards were pin locked in as little as an afternoon.

I didn't mention it was done remotely by surveillance but I figured that would be self evident.

Nonetheless you then post how I must be getting away with using multiple cards is because perhaps they don't have that capability in West bubblecluck.

So you just ignore what doesn't suit you.

The fact is all the Casinos in the US at least have the ability to pull up the name of the card that's in the machine in the surveillance room and see who is playing and then remotely switch it off

The reason why I get away with multicarding is that surveillance doesn't know which person is using someone else's card unless they check.

And a three person surveillance team (they don't have many people on a shift) would have to check and verify EVERY slot machine with a player's card inserted as they go. (Not to mention people switch machines).

So you really believe they are sitting there doing that?

As for hosts, they don't have the surveillance ability to compare who sits at a machine. They generally just turn off cards based on if offers are taken without additional play. But it still requires hosts that actually do the comparisons. Some hosts are lax, some are not. It doesn't take much to figure out where they are lax in checking.

In the early Aughts, I used to play quite a bit in AC. At one point, I had been working there on Mondays and occasionally Tuesdays,
So I got monthly mailings offering my small amounts of free play each week. I stopped going weekly and I noticed the offers increased.
I had been getting $20-25 in free play at each of three casinos. The offers ran Monday thru Sunday, so I figured if I went down on a Sunday, I could collect two weeks of free play with one overnight trip.
A new mailing came, and they wanted me back, so they upped the offer to $50 a week in free play. I went down, ran $50 thru a machine in every casino for the two days, cashed out just over $350, ate for free for two days and didn't give them a dime of other play. I've never got an offer from them again. I didn't expect them to be so punitive, as I was a platinum member with a decent record.

I just hate the ill informed posts by Alan and a few others implying that DarkOz was ant beating the casinos, and has done so for years. You can think what DO does is sleazy, unethical, beneath behavior that you would do. But why would anyone doubt his claims? They make total sense, and are actually quite easy to understand. He has given way MORE specific information than the other APs here would have wanted him to!

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?

Quote: SOOPOO

I just hate the ill informed posts by Alan and a few others implying that DarkOz was ant beating the casinos, and has done so for years. You can think what DO does is sleazy, unethical, beneath behavior that you would do. But why would anyone doubt his claims? They make total sense, and are actually quite easy to understand. He has given way MORE specific information than the other APs here would have wanted him to!

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?
link to original post

They might make sense to you, but the scale of his claimed operations makes me very dubious. I don't believe he makes anything near what he claims. You are welcome to believe, just as I am welcome to disbelieve. I have no doubt he operates as he claims, just that the scale is highly exaggerated.

Great post Soopoo.
I think many of the doubters want to be spoon fed the info with step by step instructions on how to do it.

Quote: billryan

Quote: SOOPOO

I just hate the ill informed posts by Alan and a few others implying that DarkOz was ant beating the casinos, and has done so for years. You can think what DO does is sleazy, unethical, beneath behavior that you would do. But why would anyone doubt his claims? They make total sense, and are actually quite easy to understand. He has given way MORE specific information than the other APs here would have wanted him to!

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?
link to original post

They might make sense to you, but the scale of his claimed operations makes me very dubious. I don't believe he makes anything near what he claims. You are welcome to believe, just as I am welcome to disbelieve. I have no doubt he operates as he claims, just that the scale is highly exaggerated.
link to original post

I don't recall, what did he imply he makes a year? I do remember the comment that he has made as much as $20k in a week before but I don't ever remember him saying what he makes on an average week. Yes, I do believe he could make $20k in a week but it would be rare.

Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

Quote: SOOPOO

I just hate the ill informed posts by Alan and a few others implying that DarkOz was ant beating the casinos, and has done so for years. You can think what DO does is sleazy, unethical, beneath behavior that you would do. But why would anyone doubt his claims? They make total sense, and are actually quite easy to understand. He has given way MORE specific information than the other APs here would have wanted him to!

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?
link to original post

They might make sense to you, but the scale of his claimed operations makes me very dubious. I don't believe he makes anything near what he claims. You are welcome to believe, just as I am welcome to disbelieve. I have no doubt he operates as he claims, just that the scale is highly exaggerated.
link to original post

I don't recall, what did he imply he makes a year? I do remember the comment that he has made as much as $20k in a week before but I don't ever remember him saying what he makes on an average week. Yes, I do believe he could make $20k in a week but it would be rare.
link to original post

People can claim whatever they want. I can believe what I want. I don't want to make it an issue. You can claim you are the love child of Richard Nixon and Marilyn Monroe if you want. I won't say you aren't, just that I don't believe it.
Last post on this subject from me. I've stated my belief and no need to say it over and over again. You are free to believe what you like.

Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

Quote: SOOPOO

I just hate the ill informed posts by Alan and a few others implying that DarkOz was ant beating the casinos, and has done so for years. You can think what DO does is sleazy, unethical, beneath behavior that you would do. But why would anyone doubt his claims? They make total sense, and are actually quite easy to understand. He has given way MORE specific information than the other APs here would have wanted him to!

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?
link to original post

They might make sense to you, but the scale of his claimed operations makes me very dubious. I don't believe he makes anything near what he claims. You are welcome to believe, just as I am welcome to disbelieve. I have no doubt he operates as he claims, just that the scale is highly exaggerated.
link to original post

I don't recall, what did he imply he makes a year? I do remember the comment that he has made as much as $20k in a week before but I don't ever remember him saying what he makes on an average week. Yes, I do believe he could make $20k in a week but it would be rare.
link to original post

My claim is that I make $20,000 a week but not every week. I stressed that because people started claiming I had to be making a million a year because I make $20,000 EVERY week.

My claim didn't seem strange to me. No different than if I said I make $10 an hour. And then someone challenges me that they don't believe I make $240 in a day. Because the statement"I make $10 an hour" never means every hour of every day.

In general I try to clear $20,000 in a given week. The ability to do this is dependent on acquiring enough freeplay from players cards to achieve this and is pretty predictable

For example if a casino hands out freeplay two times a month and I can get $400 both times and I do fifty cards for the month (something I have done) that gives me $20,000 freeplay twice for the month.

If I can turn it over at VBJ I will profit $20,000 two out of the four weeks.

$20,000 week one
$0 week two
$20,000 week three
$0 week four.

Obviously I am making $20,000 in a week but not every week (actually it probably takes me an afternoon to do the gambling at $50 per hand VBJ so should I have claimed $20,000 a day but not every day?)

Of course it's usually not so cut and dried. I hit multiple Casinos with differing schedules and there's re investment and paying my crew so I have to earn a lot more Freeplay than $20,000 to profit that much.

And there always comes that moment when the Casinos catch on an suddenly I lose a significant investment when offers are cancelled.

So I never claimed how much I made in a year because of that.

I have filed income tax for six figures amounts all from my gambling profit for a number of years now so that will give some idea of my success.

Geez, I thought the vultures had already eaten away at this horse so it couldn稚 be beaten anymore. Guess it痴 still there rotting to continue being beaten.

I don't understand why everyone would keep banging their heads against the wall as it relates certain naysayers who may or may not be involved in this conversation.

On occasion, especially with the internet rather than an irl setting, you're going to get people who are going to take the contrarian side of whatever the popular opinion seems to be. In some instances, it's because they fervently believe that the opposite of the thing most people are saying is true; in other instances, this is done disingenuously for reasons known only to the contrarian.

I'd rather not speculate on reasons that a specific person, or persons, who may or may not be participating in this thread or on this forum makes such contrarian posts, but in more general terms, I do observe that you get more comments directed your way if you are disagreeing with what ten other people are saying rather than agreeing with those people, but in such agreement, you also have nothing that you could possibly add to the existing conversation.

Almost everyone has heard the expression, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." In some cases, I think it's possible that you couldn't even get some nags to acknowledge the existence of the water, especially if those nags are blind or pretending to be so.

I also think that, if there is some disingenuousness at play (which there might not be), that Darkoz could post up his tax returns, mailers, share his initial coin-in for a new PC requirements and perhaps even physically show someone what he is doing for two weeks or a month and a disingenuous person might still refuse to acknowledge it.

That said, I don't understand the constant need to bring up 20k, or whatever. It doesn't even tell anyone anything. It's really just a claim that exists only for the purpose of the claim being challenged, imo, even though I suppose Darkoz wasn't the first to start making a big deal about 20k/week and only mentioned it casually at first.

In any event, what I believe is that Darkoz has final profits, annually, in the range of $0.01-$1,000,000...somewhere in there. Why would I care anyway? I started the range at $0.01 just to be silly; there's no question that he's making some amount of money because I've seen it in action on a large scale and have done it myself on a small scale, though I don't anymore.

Anyway, I don't even know what purpose any such boasting has, whether it was casual or otherwise. It could be 20k one week, but zero the next week. It could be 20k one week, except it only happens one week a year. The claim doesn't even really mean anything and only keeps getting brought up for the purpose of creating controversy.

As more and more people participate on forums less and move on to other outlets, or whatever, you would have thought that we would have been left with only the most meaningful and substantive of conversations taking place, but no, it's just some variant of the same old bickering and, 99% of the time, conveyance of exactly nothing that would ever be of use to anyone. It's pretty sad, if you want to know the truth.

But, by wasting time arguing in generalities with someone who is going to, for whatever reason, just claim not to believe anything that you're saying regardless of what you do is just that---a waste of time. I don't know what the end goal or motivations are when people behave in such a fashion, but what I do know is that I have no interest in indulging them beyond a certain point. I don't know what points you guys have, but I am way past my point with certain people who may or may not have participated in this thread and may or may not have ever participated on this forum.

Anyway, I mean absolutely no offense to those who would completely deny the existence of almost all forms of AP. If I ever need advice on doing recreational gambling, and probably not even particularly well, I've got you on speed dial.

My $20,000 claim started about two years ago right after the reopening from Covid if I remember correctly

Posters were saying comps had returned very tight and I pointed out I was doing quite well.

Someone asked how well and seeing I had been pulling in $20,000 a week every week since the reopening I mentioned the amount.

Then I got accused of saying I make a million a year (because people of course assume I make that 52 weeks a year with no downtime) and I am such a person I don't like to mislead so I quantified that it wasn't every week.

Sure it might last every week for a few months but then everything get shut down. Or worse, the Last three weeks of profits is lost when cards I invested in are shut off very prematurely.

But people could not wrap their heads around that and it just took off from there.

Quote: DRich

As someone who has designed casino player tracking systems used in 100's of thousands of slot machines I can tell you exactly how they work if you have specific questions.
link to original post

I'm curious as to whether casinos rate players based on whether they make optimal holds on video poker. I'm sure they gather data from the machines that shows what they've paid out - and from that data they could infer the effective edge they have over the average player. But do they have any way of keeping track of suboptimal play percentage?

Also, if a player pulls out his card after getting dealt 3 of a kind, but before hitting draw, then hits 4 of a kind after drawing with no player card inserted, does that win still register as a win on his account?

Quote: SOOPOO

I am now a 4 figure a year AP! I値l be making over $1k a year using some stuff from the APs that I learned from them. Plus a 5 figure AP from online sports.
You gonna make some snarky comment implying I知 making it up?
link to original post

We're gonna need to see pics of paid off markers, Rolex watches, and fanny packs full of cash for us to believe you.

Quote: JackSpade

I'm curious as to whether casinos rate players based on whether they make optimal holds on video poker. I'm sure they gather data from the machines that shows what they've paid out - and from that data they could infer the effective edge they have over the average player. But do they have any way of keeping track of suboptimal play percentage?

Also, if a player pulls out his card after getting dealt 3 of a kind, but before hitting draw, then hits 4 of a kind after drawing with no player card inserted, does that win still register as a win on his account?
link to original post

No, IGT machines which make up 95% of video poker do not have the ability to track holds and communicate them to the player tracking systems. I believe Acres now has an add on product that can do it but I am not aware of any casinos using it.

Most of the modern player tracking systems do not conclude the player session until after the hand has finished. In the old days most systems would reward you for pulling the card early.