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darkoz
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February 29th, 2020 at 8:14:17 PM permalink
Wizard Approved

So I checked into a casino hotel. They made me an offer to "go green"

Since I checked in for four nights if I did not waste resources by having my room cleaned for the duration of my stay, I could get a $20 food credit for any restaurant

Sounded good to me

I wondered how did some soap suds and electricity vacuuming amount to $20 worth of saving to the hotel but oh well.

I stepped out on the third day when the cleaning lady was next door. She asked if she could clean my room.

I said no as I was taking part in the "going green" program

She clearly had no idea what I was talking about

She asked if I didn't need my room cleaned could she just dial in from my room phone. It would take just a moment.

I asked why?

She said she gets paid by the room

And suddenly I understood where the $20 for my restaurant credit was coming from

The execs must have been laughing real hard around the boardroom. "We go green, alright, green dollar bills right out the pockets of our employees"
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Greasyjohn
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February 29th, 2020 at 9:32:14 PM permalink
So you let the housekeeping lady call from your room and thereby get paid for cleaning your room. I know you were just trying to help her out, but to management it would look like you ask for housekeeping services anyway. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they tacked $20 onto your bill when you check out.
billryan
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March 1st, 2020 at 12:25:42 AM permalink
A $20 credit at one of their restaurants probably cost them $5,.or less.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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March 1st, 2020 at 1:20:37 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

So you let the housekeeping lady call from your room and thereby get paid for cleaning your room. I know you were just trying to help her out, but to management it would look like you ask for housekeeping services anyway. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they tacked $20 onto your bill when you check out.



No, I refused her the call.

Which is the next part of my wishy-washy feeling on the subject

I felt bad for not letting her earn a few dollars and that management was taking the money for my food credit from their workers

Otoh, technically, she was attempting to get paid for work not done. I.e. she was gaming the system.

I don't know my head hurts from this quandary
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Minty
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March 1st, 2020 at 1:36:51 AM permalink
I'm glad you've brought this up. I always just assumed they wanted to save a small amount on water and wanted a green reputation. Gonna have to think harder about doing this in the future.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
SOOPOO
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March 1st, 2020 at 8:52:49 AM permalink
Quote: Minty

I'm glad you've brought this up. I always just assumed they wanted to save a small amount on water and wanted a green reputation. Gonna have to think harder about doing this in the future.



I never thought that for one second. It was clear to me that it was a way to have fewer housekeepers. If one of the big floors with 100 rooms used to need 4 housekeepers, now they only need 2 or 3. And the food credit of $20 costs the casino far less.

You all know what's next, don't you? I'll clue you in.....


Room cost.... $100 per night
$43 resort fee per day
$8 room tidy up fee per day (can decline...)
Greasyjohn
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March 1st, 2020 at 9:46:10 AM permalink
For years I have declined room service. I can live with two towels for a two night, or longer, stay in Vegas. I keep things pretty tidy in the room anyway; pull up the blankets so the bed looks presentable.
Sandybestdog
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March 1st, 2020 at 10:53:28 AM permalink
I’m really not picky. It’s just me, I don’t need anything. There’s enough towels. It just seems like everywhere everyone is just itching to get in your room. Tropicana AC, they’re banging on your door at 7:30, then again at 11:30, then at 2 a supervisor is knocking to see how your service was. Maybe that was somewhere else. I normally just leave the do not disturb on my door. I just stayed a few days at Beau Rivage. After the first night I actually had a voicemail on my phone saying we’re sorry you chose not to have your room serviced today. Please let us know if you need anything. Also we reserve the right to enter your room at any time. I know after the Vegas shooting they were all saying we’re coming in your room every day or so whether you want it or not. That seems to have subsided. So I let them come in the next day.

Casinos leave a carbon footprint like any other business. Except the casino itself serves no purpose to the general public. Society is not any better off because of casinos. Whereas we are better because of cars and planes and electricity.
SOOPOO
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March 1st, 2020 at 12:12:29 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

Except the casino itself serves no purpose to the general public. Society is not any better off because of casinos. Whereas we are better because of cars and planes and electricity.



I think you are being unfair to casinos. I am better off because of casinos. It is in my rotation of entertainment options. It lets me go to Vegas for great vacations at steeply discounted prices. I think casinos serve the public like movie theaters do. Or golf courses. Or nightclubs.
Guessing casino industry in USA employs 500,000 people? Not to mention the dozen or so AP's on this very forum who make their living at them.

If your argument is that the problems that gambling causes overrides my points, I'll give that to you.
Minty
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March 1st, 2020 at 12:59:23 PM permalink
Is it worth the marginally smaller impact to go green if it costs someone hours who may need them? That's a tough one. The idea of an additional fee wouldn't surprise me though. Still waiting to see if there will ever be a breaking point and boycotting of all the fees people get slapped with, but I'm guessing they're timed in such a way that we can stomach them.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
AxelWolf
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March 1st, 2020 at 1:45:52 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I think you are being unfair to casinos. I am better off because of casinos. It is in my rotation of entertainment options. It lets me go to Vegas for great vacations at steeply discounted prices. I think casinos serve the public like movie theaters do. Or golf courses. Or nightclubs.
Guessing casino industry in USA employs 500,000 people? Not to mention the dozen or so AP's on this very forum who make their living at them.

If your argument is that the problems that gambling causes overrides my points, I'll give that to you.

I'm better off because we have casinos as well.

Y0U might be smart enough to research, learn, and understand more about gambling than the average person to where the advantage is minimal and that allows you to maximize your entertainment value. Most people are not doing those things.
For the most part, I believe casinos are a big drain on society in so many ways. I absolutely believe we would be way better off without them. But, since I'm an advantage player and it pays the bills, I hope they keep building them. I just have no idea how we can sustain so many casinos being built, and on top of that adding sports betting everywhere.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Minty
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March 1st, 2020 at 9:02:16 PM permalink
Do you think we'll ever see some big collapse like what's happening to malls and many retail stores with there being too many? Granted, there's more to the story than just the quantity there, but maybe their overexpanansion could be problematic for them.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
Sandybestdog
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March 1st, 2020 at 9:35:46 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I think you are being unfair to casinos. I am better off because of casinos. It is in my rotation of entertainment options. It lets me go to Vegas for great vacations at steeply discounted prices. I think casinos serve the public like movie theaters do. Or golf courses. Or nightclubs.
Guessing casino industry in USA employs 500,000 people? Not to mention the dozen or so AP's on this very forum who make their living at them.

If your argument is that the problems that gambling causes overrides my points, I'll give that to you.

I am better off as well having made my living as an AP for the past 2 years. It's just a general observation. I think casinos should be relegated to destination places like Vegas and AC. But states like Pennsylvania with politicians that have an insatiable appetite for more money to spend have probably gotten half the population hooked on the lottery and casinos. It can't really be called a legitimate industry when half the revenue is taxed. Providing a service that earns tax revenue like a restaurant has been replaced by a desire to get as much money from the public as possible without regard to what product is being offered. To say that they employ people doesn't legitimize its effects on society. Don't mean to be too serious or doom and gloom here. It's just a general observation.
AZDuffman
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March 2nd, 2020 at 5:26:54 AM permalink
Quote: Minty

Do you think we'll ever see some big collapse like what's happening to malls and many retail stores with there being too many? Granted, there's more to the story than just the quantity there, but maybe their overexpanansion could be problematic for them.



You will probably see some point where there are too many. AC has too many. But people will have to move on to other entertainment. Malls we’re shopping as entertainment in many ways.

I was just at a casino for a few days. What was important was getting together with old friends. Big open place to hang out. Room. Food. Relax. And pull a couple hundred from the BJ tables. We rotate but we hit casinos because they are one of few things offers all of this.

Back to the thread I can see it being worth $20 to a big place. An hour labor will be near $15. The laundry is tougher but talking another $1-3 in labor and cost. So
A credit like $30 at a big joint I can see it. Though I would not take it as part of why I stay at a hotel
Is the clean room.
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SOOPOO
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March 2nd, 2020 at 5:27:32 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I am better off as well having made my living as an AP for the past 2 years. It's just a general observation. I think casinos should be relegated to destination places like Vegas and AC. But states like Pennsylvania with politicians that have an insatiable appetite for more money to spend have probably gotten half the population hooked on the lottery and casinos. It can't really be called a legitimate industry when half the revenue is taxed. Providing a service that earns tax revenue like a restaurant has been replaced by a desire to get as much money from the public as possible without regard to what product is being offered. To say that they employ people doesn't legitimize its effects on society. Don't mean to be too serious or doom and gloom here. It's just a general observation.



Fully agree..... but..... I like 'taxes' that are optional. You don't have to play the lottery. You don't have to go into a casino.
LuckyPhow
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March 2nd, 2020 at 6:39:56 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Guessing casino industry in USA employs 500,000 people? Not to mention the dozen or so AP's on this very forum who make their living at them.



American Gaming Association notes on its home page that the gaming industry -- casinos, suppliers, regulators, etc. -- "supports 1.8 million jobs."
TigerWu
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March 2nd, 2020 at 8:34:12 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I never thought that for one second. It was clear to me that it was a way to have fewer housekeepers. If one of the big floors with 100 rooms used to need 4 housekeepers, now they only need 2 or 3. And the food credit of $20 costs the casino far less.

You all know what's next, don't you? I'll clue you in.....


Room cost.... $100 per night
$43 resort fee per day
$8 room tidy up fee per day (can decline...)



And for the average person staying only 2, 3, 4 days... why would they ever need to pay that "room tidy up fee?" Do you clean your house top to bottom and wash and change the sheets every 2-3 days when you're home?

This whole thing about hotels letting you opt out of room cleaning is smart and should have been done a long time ago.
darkoz
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March 2nd, 2020 at 9:35:30 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

And for the average person staying only 2, 3, 4 days... why would they ever need to pay that "room tidy up fee?" Do you clean your house top to bottom and wash and change the sheets every 2-3 days when you're home?

This whole thing about hotels letting you opt out of room cleaning is smart and should have been done a long time ago.



I agree

And if they paid their cleaning staff by the hour instead of by the room it would feel a bit less nefarious

I suppose it can be argued the outcome would be the same (less rooms needing cleaning = less hours required) but this per room bit seems more direct.

I thought it quite interesting that the cleaning lady was NOT aware of the going green program. If they haven't made the staff aware of incentives being offered to patrons to avoid having their rooms cleaned that strikes me as purposefully deceptive
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DRich
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March 2nd, 2020 at 10:27:44 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

And for the average person staying only 2, 3, 4 days... why would they ever need to pay that "room tidy up fee?" Do you clean your house top to bottom and wash and change the sheets every 2-3 days when you're home?



I want a clean towel and a made bed every day.
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AZDuffman
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March 2nd, 2020 at 11:08:18 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I want a clean towel and a made bed every day.



+1. Hotel not a hostel.
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billryan
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March 2nd, 2020 at 11:30:31 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I want a clean towel and a made bed every day.



Isn't that why you got married?
I make my bed everyday. If I'm home, if at a friend's or in a hotel.
Most hotels have more than enough towels for a 2-3 day stay.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
TDVegas
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March 2nd, 2020 at 12:29:16 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I’m really not picky. It’s just me, I don’t need anything. There’s enough towels. It just seems like everywhere everyone is just itching to get in your room. Tropicana AC, they’re banging on your door at 7:30, then again at 11:30, then at 2 a supervisor is knocking to see how your service was. Maybe that was somewhere else. I normally just leave the do not disturb on my door. I just stayed a few days at Beau Rivage. After the first night I actually had a voicemail on my phone saying we’re sorry you chose not to have your room serviced today. Please let us know if you need anything. Also we reserve the right to enter your room at any time. I know after the Vegas shooting they were all saying we’re coming in your room every day or so whether you want it or not. That seems to have subsided. So I let them come in the next day.

Casinos leave a carbon footprint like any other business. Except the casino itself serves no purpose to the general public. Society is not any better off because of casinos. Whereas we are better because of cars and planes and electricity.


Gambling, imo, is supposed to be a treat, a vacation, a once in a while form of entertainment. The influx of casinos turned it into a regular thing. Considering it’s probably one of the most expensive (ask a slot player) forms of entertainment.....in a general sense, casinos have not been a boon to “living standard” from a $$ perspective. In all regards, it’s been a siphon.

Locals Vegas casinos continue to promote “come on in everyday”....”we love ya”. As I see it, not a good thing.

Gambling should be a treat, a baseball game once a month. A visit to Disney. A day at the beach. Too many turned it into a way of life.
DRich
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March 2nd, 2020 at 12:37:10 PM permalink
Quote: billryan


Most hotels have more than enough towels for a 2-3 day stay.



I don't find that to be true when there are two or more people in the room. I rarely see a hotel with more than four bath towels in the room. The wives usually use two towels each per shower. One to dry with and the other one for their hair.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
AxelWolf
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TDVegas
March 2nd, 2020 at 1:30:17 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Gambling, imo, is supposed to be a treat, a vacation, a once in a while form of entertainment. The influx of casinos turned it into a regular thing. Considering it’s probably one of the most expensive (ask a slot player) forms of entertainment.....in a general sense, casinos have not been a boon to “living standard” from a $$ perspective. In all regards, it’s been a siphon.

Locals Vegas casinos continue to promote “come on in everyday”....”we love ya”. As I see it, not a good thing.

Gambling should be a treat, a baseball game once a month. A visit to Disney. A day at the beach. Too many turned it into a way of life.

Exactly.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TDVegas
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March 2nd, 2020 at 1:46:48 PM permalink
I also TOTALLY disagree with the former governor or PA who argued "if they don't gamble here...they will gamble elsewhere".

Does this guy not understand that by making it convenient and local....PA'ers are going to gamble more often than traveling to Atlantic City or Mohegun Sun?? Does he really think a slot addict, if he didn't have access, is going to blow the same money on online sports wagering or scratch offs. Please.

And by more often, I'm talking about the "at risk" gamblers. The ones traipsing into Parx or Sugarland 3-4-5 days a week.

While I'm a free market person..let's not kid ourselves, too many are blowing money they simply cannot afford to blow as more casinos pop up. It's a very expensive fun.

If you want stark reality....the Bahamas probably has the best set up. "Come from far and away and enjoy our gambling".

"You live here as a citizen and gamble in the casinos"?..."we will arrest you".

My understanding...they have one of the highest standards of living in the Caribbean islands.
AZDuffman
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March 2nd, 2020 at 3:42:53 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Gambling, imo, is supposed to be a treat, a vacation, a once in a while form of entertainment. The influx of casinos turned it into a regular thing. Considering it’s probably one of the most expensive (ask a slot player) forms of entertainment.....in a general sense, casinos have not been a boon to “living standard” from a $$ perspective. In all regards, it’s been a siphon.

Locals Vegas casinos continue to promote “come on in everyday”....”we love ya”. As I see it, not a good thing.

Gambling should be a treat, a baseball game once a month. A visit to Disney. A day at the beach. Too many turned it into a way of life.



Only for people who cannot control themselves. I go in a controlled manner. As do most people I know. I have an Entertaient budget. The casino is great entertainment. Whether gambling or dining. And what makes a game more fun to watch than laying a few bucks on the outcome?

Destructive people will destroy their lives one way or another. Let the rest of us enjoy ourselves.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
TDVegas
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March 2nd, 2020 at 4:53:35 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Only for people who cannot control themselves. I go in a controlled manner. As do most people I know. I have an Entertaient budget. The casino is great entertainment. Whether gambling or dining. And what makes a game more fun to watch than laying a few bucks on the outcome?

Destructive people will destroy their lives one way or another. Let the rest of us enjoy ourselves.


No one is changing anything. It’s merely an observation backed up with sound data. Gambling does not provide a bump up to the population on the standard of living scale. It provides an overall bump down.
onenickelmiracle
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March 2nd, 2020 at 5:24:43 PM permalink
No real issue here imo. Even the old folks at McDonald's in the morning drinking coffee wouldn't waste time on this.
I am a robot.
Minty
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beachbumbabs
March 2nd, 2020 at 11:31:57 PM permalink
Ehh, I think towels can be reused a number of times. It's just water you're wiping off yourself. Feels wasteful to have em cleaned more than every few uses if you ask me.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
AZDuffman
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March 3rd, 2020 at 3:50:16 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

No one is changing anything. It’s merely an observation backed up with sound data. Gambling does not provide a bump up to the population on the standard of living scale. It provides an overall bump down.



Bump to the standard of living?

It provides entertainment. And it provides jobs for people. Lots and lots of them. If you want to make the argument that "the jobs would otherwise be down at the now closed mall" go ahead, but by that logic you can say any business displaces any other business.

In Pittsburgh metro you have two major casinos. Both have become "anchors" for their areas. Rivers completes the North Shore as an entertainment area. Meadows has turned a fairly empty area into an area of hotels and restaurants. The offices near it now have more life around them. Rivers in fact pays half the running costs for the subway connection to downtown, a very great thing. That subsidy is renewed year by year and may end one day, or it may stay free to the rider. Either way it has turned what was once a dangerous part of the city into new nightlife. Said nightlife is causing a condo conversion boom in the downtown area. It is simply amazing to see if you remember the 70s/80s.
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billryan
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March 3rd, 2020 at 6:54:51 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

No one is changing anything. It’s merely an observation backed up with sound data. Gambling does not provide a bump up to the population on the standard of living scale. It provides an overall bump down.



Tell that to the people of Las Vegas.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AxelWolf
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March 4th, 2020 at 4:25:18 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Tell that to the people of Las Vegas.

I WILL. I believe the Las Vegas average income is $58k a year, I believe that is ranked about 28th. A large percentage of those Casino employees gamble frequently many do it daily, especially bartenders from cocktail waitresses and what I've noticed. There isn't a jackpot Joanie's, Dotty's, bar and all the other places you can gamble at on every corner for the tourists and I certainly wouldn't call it entertainment.

While playing many promos in the bars I noticed it's almost like clockwork, an employee shift ends and they sit down and start plugging away at video poker and video Keno, $20 after $20 after $20. The strange thing many of those bartenders have a computer screen that lets them know exactly how much everyone's losing. Unfortunately, they only seem to remember when somebody wins.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DRich
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March 4th, 2020 at 7:12:40 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


While playing many promos in the bars I noticed it's almost like clockwork, an employee shift ends and they sit down and start plugging away at video poker and video Keno, $20 after $20 after $20. The strange thing many of those bartenders have a computer screen that lets them know exactly how much everyone's losing. Unfortunately, they only seem to remember when somebody wins.



You are forgetting an important fact. When the machines are losing, losing, losing, they are now due to hit. Most bartenders and recreational gamblers believe that.

I deal with bartenders daily and they truly believe that.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
TDVegas
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March 4th, 2020 at 8:35:10 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

You are forgetting an important fact. When the machines are losing, losing, losing, they are now due to hit. Most bartenders and recreational gamblers believe that.

I deal with bartenders daily and they truly believe that.


Vegas, in a general sense...is a dumb population. One look at the daily, local commercials on tv....you can see where everything is geared toward. If it’s not the car dealerships carnival barking “low credit, no credit” or the PI attorneys carnival barking “in a wreck, need a check”, then it’s the payday loans, dollar loan center clowns “selling their wares” or a local casino inviting you in for “crappy gift” Monday’s.

High school graduation rate is around 70%. The real number of those actually applying themselves for something better is probably around 20-30%. It shows in all aspects.

If I had a $1 for everytime some local told me he can beat some new game...whether bubble craps, stadium style roulette or just about any other game....lets just say I'd have a lot of $1's.

Unless it’s an AP player....gambling at the local level is not meant to be a way of life. The locals business owners went for that jugular. It worked like a charm for Frank Fertitta and Sam Boyd in 1976 and 1979.
Last edited by: TDVegas on Mar 4, 2020
AZDuffman
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March 5th, 2020 at 4:38:48 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


While playing many promos in the bars I noticed it's almost like clockwork, an employee shift ends and they sit down and start plugging away at video poker and video Keno, $20 after $20 after $20. The strange thing many of those bartenders have a computer screen that lets them know exactly how much everyone's losing. Unfortunately, they only seem to remember when somebody wins.



I used to think gambling dealers fell under "the shoemaker's kids go barefoot" but it is deeper. Even less intelligent dealers will see people keep losing. Sharper ones will limit play to not play, an exception being poker dealers who can learn from all that play they watch. But to be a bartender and watch VP or table top slots drain people then play after their shift ends?

What I really think it is about is what I call a "serf class." Being a class of people who think their lot will never, can never improve so try to make a small score and have a nice few days. From the dealer who had a big tip night to the salesman who had a big commission check to the gangster who made a big score. You live high off the hog for a few days or weeks, then back to hand to mouth.

Don't think it is just the low income quint. All those upper middle class places in Vegas and elsewhere. Lots have leased cars, maxed credit cards, and every few years they refi the equity right out of the house.

It has gone on forever. It will go on forever. Many livelyhoods depend on this behavior. From mortgage refis to the Payday Loan Store to Rick Harris. Getting rid of casinos will not change it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Wizard
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March 5th, 2020 at 5:58:47 AM permalink
I applaud the hotel in question for offering an incentive to not clean the room. I've seen this before, mainly in Europe. It is wasteful to clean a room that isn't very dirty and the occupant doesn't need the service. If an agreement is made to not clean the room for $20 in comps, then that is a win-win situation. As to the maid, making less money, there are plenty of jobs out there. I would argue the unemployment rate is too low for a healthy economy. Everyone in casino and hotel management I know sing that blues about how hard it is to fill jobs.

Even if I were in Costa Rica, I would still applaud the hotel out of respect of a free market. If the hotel let go some housekeepers because some percentage of guests were declining room cleaning, then they could be out there doing some service people want done. I am never one to support jobs just for the sake of giving someone a paycheck. The service done should be the purpose of a job.

As an example, in Baltimore there is a toll booth in BOTH directions of the Key Bridge. I've been asking the question for 30 years and still nobody has ever been able to explain to me an argument against doubling the toll in one direction and making it free the other. You reduce total waiting time at the bridge, less carbon footprint, and revenue remains the same. However, knowing Maryland politics, somebody will say the J word whenever the topic gets suggested.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Doc
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March 5th, 2020 at 6:50:47 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

As an example, in Baltimore there is a toll booth in BOTH directions of the Key Bridge. I've been asking the question for 30 years and still nobody has ever been able to explain to me an argument against doubling the toll in one direction and making it free the other. You reduce total waiting time at the bridge, less carbon footprint, and revenue remains the same. However, knowing Maryland politics, somebody will say the J word whenever the topic gets suggested.


Just for my own amusement, I will offer a counter-example. Due to possibly-failing memory, I might possibly have this backwards, but I don't think so, and the concept should hold.

My wife and I have made several driving trips to the Atlantic Provinces of Canada, visiting New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island -- some beautiful country. It is rather easy to drive between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, as the land mass is basically continuous. However, Prince Edward Island is, naturally, an island. There is the Confederation Bridge (a long one) connecting New Brunswick to the island, and Northumberland Ferries provides an automobile ferry between Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia.

In accordance with the logic presented by the Wizard, both the bridge and the ferry charge one-direction tolls. The bridge only collects the toll for travel from New Brunswick to Prince Edward Island and not on the return. Similarly, the ferry only charges the toll for travel from Prince Edward Island to Nova Scotia and not for the return sailing.

Do you see where this counter-example is heading? My wife's cheapskate husband likes to visit these places by driving the loop counter-clockwise from New Brunswick to Nova Scotia to Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick for the return trip home. That way, I see all three provinces without paying a toll for either the bridge or the ferry. If I were to drive the loop in the clockwise direction, I would have to pay both tolls.

;-)
Wizard
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March 5th, 2020 at 7:39:07 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

In accordance with the logic presented by the Wizard, both the bridge and the ferry charge one-direction tolls. The bridge only collects the toll for travel from New Brunswick to Prince Edward Island and not on the return. Similarly, the ferry only charges the toll for travel from Prince Edward Island to Nova Scotia and not for the return sailing.



I would submit for consideration to the appropriate government agencies in Canada that they charge a toll the say way in both places, either leaving the island or going to it. For example, if memory serves me right, one must pay to take the ferry to Mackinaw Island but it's free to leave.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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March 5th, 2020 at 7:59:19 AM permalink
Most of NY has eliminated toll booths (and their workers AND the police sentinels and enforcers AND the cleaning crews and upkeep.

In place they have installed digital "poles" which either scan your EZpass or send you (much higher) toll bill in the mail.

BTW failure to pay is high. I have a friend who left town for a few weeks so didn't see the mail until his return. I think he was penalized $150 each unpaid toll regardless of original amount
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AZDuffman
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March 5th, 2020 at 8:52:44 AM permalink
At the PA/OH border they charge one way for the PA turnpike. It’s like $8! I took a side road when I was doing courier work and sometimes still do. But it makes sense if I am just going home.
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DRich
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March 5th, 2020 at 9:21:10 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

At the PA/OH border they charge one way for the PA turnpike. It’s like $8! I took a side road when I was doing courier work and sometimes still do. But it makes sense if I am just going home.




Raise the rates. I would pay a lot more than $8 to get out of Pennsylvania.
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TigerWu
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March 5th, 2020 at 9:47:53 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Most of NY has eliminated toll booths (and their workers AND the police sentinels and enforcers AND the cleaning crews and upkeep.

In place they have installed digital "poles" which either scan your EZpass or send you (much higher) toll bill in the mail.



How do they know where you live if you don't live in NY? What if you're using a rental car?
unJon
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March 5th, 2020 at 10:05:27 AM permalink
Am I the only one that wants to correct the grammar of the topic title every time this thread pops up?
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DRich
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March 5th, 2020 at 10:23:52 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Am I the only one that wants to correct the grammar of the topic title every time this thread pops up?



Whom would want to do that?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
billryan
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March 5th, 2020 at 10:23:57 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

How do they know where you live if you don't live in NY? What if you're using a rental car?



Toll goes to the plates owner., same as red light tickets. If unpaid, you can't renew your car's registration. I'm not sure how hard they go after that. They can suspend your drivers license, or any state licenses you might have and I believe they can suspend your car's insurance. That would make driving a felony. It's theft of service, and you can be arrested for it, though I'm not sure how.many are.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
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March 5th, 2020 at 10:57:34 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

How do they know where you live if you don't live in NY? What if you're using a rental car?



I can tell you..... I used a rental car in San Juan and went through a 15 cent toll but there was no way for me to pay it. A few weeks later the rental car company charged me $22.50.
AZDuffman
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March 5th, 2020 at 11:18:00 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Raise the rates. I would pay a lot more than $8 to get out of Pennsylvania.



You pay coming in.
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PokerGrinder
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March 5th, 2020 at 12:30:20 PM permalink
Fun fact if you skip paying tolls in a car with Canadian license plates they don’t send you a bill or come after you. I assume something to do with jurisdiction or it costing more to collect than the collection.

Edit: I should say while driving Canadian car in USA.
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Sandybestdog
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March 9th, 2020 at 12:52:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

,,,,
As an example, in Baltimore there is a toll booth in BOTH directions of the Key Bridge. I've been asking the question for 30 years and still nobody has ever been able to explain to me an argument against doubling the toll in one direction and making it free the other. You reduce total waiting time at the bridge, less carbon footprint, and revenue remains the same. However, knowing Maryland politics, somebody will say the J word whenever the topic gets suggested.

The bridge about 30 miles north just short of Delaware is $6 one way. The Bay Bridge is one way too. But there is no way to avoid those. I think if the Key bridge were one way there would be people going around it. From where I come from I go 695 to avoid the toll. It's a coin toss as to which is faster so I avoid it. If it were free one way I may go through it.

The toll to get out of NJ to DE or PA was just raised to $5. I wouldn't say I'm a tight wad per se but there's definitely been times I've avoided going to NJ just so I don't have to pay to get out. Of course though there is no price too high to get out of NJ.
AxelWolf
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March 9th, 2020 at 1:23:24 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I used to think gambling dealers fell under "the shoemaker's kids go barefoot" but it is deeper. Even less intelligent dealers will see people keep losing. Sharper ones will limit play to not play, an exception being poker dealers who can learn from all that play they watch. But to be a bartender and watch VP or table top slots drain people then play after their shift ends?

What I really think it is about is what I call a "serf class." Being a class of people who think their lot will never, can never improve so try to make a small score and have a nice few days. From the dealer who had a big tip night to the salesman who had a big commission check to the gangster who made a big score. You live high off the hog for a few days or weeks, then back to hand to mouth.

Don't think it is just the low income quint. All those upper middle class places in Vegas and elsewhere. Lots have leased cars, maxed credit cards, and every few years they refi the equity right out of the house.

It has gone on forever. It will go on forever. .

Well said, I agree for the most part. Many of those employees who I was talking about make enough to pay their bills and live just fine even after they gamble a significant amount away. I'm sure they're all borrowing money from each other from time to time and taking out a few payday loans here and there. Then I'm sure there's the other end of the spectrum both ways. Some guy'/ gals life gets totally ruined do to a gambling addiction, meanwhile, another bartender doesn't Gamble and they live very frugal overall and saves tens of thousands per year.

I'm still fairly certain we would be better off overall if not for all the legalized gambling. That can be said about a great many things(including guns😁)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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