Casino caught stealing(value)
She told me that as she was walking Into The Wynn high-limit room she noticed an employee was resetting/deleting multipliers. I can't recall how many X's or what denomination, it was at least one 4 times multiplier on a $5 denomination or higher. I asked her what kind of employee it was. Apparently it was a supervisor she kind of knew. She said the guy had a guilty look on his face and quickly yanked out his card and scampered away as fast as possible.
She was very concerned/pissed off about the situation, so much so, that she called Gaming Controll. The Gaming agent on the phone explained to her they were allowed to do this as long as the machine sat idle for at least 16 minutes. Who knows if they actually waited 16 minutes or if the gaming agent actually know what he was talking about when he says the casinos are legally allowed to do this per their own rules/laws. Apparently she noticed multipliers seem to be disappearing in the past, but she wasn't quite sure what was going on, until now.
I don't know how this is any different than taking away player funded Progressive money? It's pretty much downright dirty theft from their customers as far as I'm concerned(I wonder how Zcore will defend the casino in this situation?)
I know there's been some discussion about disappearing multipliers and employees doing this stuff, however, I think it's worth revisiting the discussion.
She also mentioned that the gaming agent had some other interesting things to say about Advantage players related to this situation, but I don't want to sidetrack this particular situation. Apparently, a gaming agent will be calling her back since she didn't accept what they initially had to say about the situation.
I don't know this person all that well. Maybe I'll talk to her once a year or so when she finds something interesting.Quote: PokerGrinderIf true this is disgusting. I’ve wondered for awhile whether this was possible. Interestingly enough one my casinos here had an Ocean Magic machine down for the last couple of days and when it came back on today there were no bubble wilds because every level was reset to factory. Seems like the wilds should still be there as they have been paid for.
But, I have no reason to believe it's not true. There would be no real reason for her to call me out of blue and make this up. She was asking what I thought about the situation and if I had any advice. I didn't really have any good advice. Yeah, it sucks and it shouldn't be allowed, but it is, what it is. It's just not my fight, but, I'll pass the word around.
She asked me if I would call gaming. I told her I probably wouldn't, because, I would rather save my complaints for something more serious to me personally. I told her if she felt strongly about it and had nothing to lose then she absolutely should. I doubt anything will come of it, but these casinos need to know that we're watching and people are going to make a stink about stuff like this.
It sounded as if she wanted to take a stand on this and wanted Bob N's number. I told her I doubt anything will come of it, but I guess it couldn't hurt, so I gave it to her. I told her she should send some kind of email to the casino asking them to preserve any video evidence, just in case.
Quote: AxelWolfApparently she noticed multipliers seem to be disappearing in the past, but she wasn't quite sure what was going on, until now.
This is the one thing that doesn't make sense in her story. If she saw a multiplier, wouldn't she play it off right away? for fear that someone else would beat her to it? So not sure how she would notice a multiplier, but not play it.
Are we talkin about a must hit Progressive?Quote: mcallister3200I’ve heard of Wynn being seen wiping 10k progressives to reset when they get close to the point someone might want to monitor them. Not that they couldn’t be moving that progressive money elsewhere but it’s obviously unethical to do that as a practice, just don’t put them on the floor if you don’t want anyone playing them except near reset.
Yet, they can't do it with player funded progressives. Can you explain to me what the difference is?Quote: DRichAs one that works with Nevada Gaming regulators often, I believe the agent saying they are allowed to do it. I think it is a horrible practice and I have never heard of a casino with that policy.
Quote: DRichAs one that works with Nevada Gaming regulators often, I believe the agent saying they are allowed to do it. I think it is a horrible practice and I have never heard of a casino with that policy.
This practice lowers the expected return of the game with optimal play to some unknown amount potentially lower than what regulators have approved. Seems to me that it would not be allowed.
I asked her the same type of question. Apparently, she noticed the multipliers and went to get money. As she came back and walked into the high-limit room she seen it happening as she was walking towards the machines. This might not be 100% accurate what she said, I didn't pay much attention or drill her on that aspect, because ss said earlier, there's absolutely no reason for her to suddenly call me and tell me about this.Quote: rsactuaryThis is the one thing that doesn't make sense in her story. If she saw a multiplier, wouldn't she play it off right away? for fear that someone else would beat her to it? So not sure how she would notice a multiplier, but not play it.
I don't even know how they" delete" multipliers? Does a simple machine reset do this?
And, I don't know why she would go through all the effort to call Gaming if she wasn't certain about the situation.
I kept trying to explain to him that each spin of the reels was an independent event and had nothing to do with prior wins or lack of wins, but he wouldn't buy it and actually got upset at me (but apologized the next day).
He said there were vultures standing over him eager to take over the machine, and that when he offered to JV with one of them the guy refused, which means that my friend's not the only one who believes this nonsense.
Fraaankkkklin. Franklin!
Quote: AxelWolfAre we talkin about a must hit Progressive?
Yes. Allegedly wiping majors, leaving the minor.
Quote: beachbumbabsNever played Wynn. Likely never will. Isn't he the guy who put in the triple zero roulette and capped craps odds at 2x, both in the last couple years? Or am I remembering wrong, and one of those was Venetian?
Wynn has at least one 000 roulette but it started at Venetian as did the everything under $50 6/5 thing. Per John Mehaffey (sp?) who I believe is a member and I believe helped compile the blackjack survey here a few years ago, the number of 000 roulette tables in LV went from the from the 3 at V/P in 2017, to 25 in 2018, to 60 in 2019 including infecting downtown. Venetian now has 000 video roulette as well I believe.
Quote: beachbumbabsOr am I remembering wrong, and one of those was Venetian?
It was the Venetian.
I would like to get more first hand evidence of this. Might there be a written report from Gaming about this?
Quote: AxelWolfThe Gaming agent on the phone explained to her they were allowed to do this as long as the machine sat idle for at least 16 minutes.
If this (the 16 minute rule) were true, I would think the machines would be programmed to reset the board after 16 minutes of inactivity. Why would an employee have to manually reset? Seems odd to me.
I can get you in contact with her. I have a feeling she would love to speak to you about this.Quote: WizardAs to the OP, if this is true, I would be happy to expose it. Morally, I think it is the same as lowering a progressive jackpot, which casinos may not do except if specifically allowed by Gaming to give the money back to players another way. This is rarely done, usually only in a case of a casino going out of business.
I would like to get more first hand evidence of this. Might there be a written report from Gaming about this?
I don't think she expected to walk in and find somebody doing this.Quote: jjjooogggIf she was allowed to video record this. Then we'd have proof. I believe that this is one of the reasons why casino's prohibit recording. I know of an old known trick that would be exposed if recording was allowed.
Quote: AxelWolfShe told me that as she was walking Into The Wynn high-limit room she noticed an employee was resetting/deleting multipliers. I can't recall how many X's or what denomination, it was at least one 4 times multiplier on a $5 denomination or higher.
If I ever found something like that, it would mean I'm about to lose $225 . . .
Extremely slimy thing to do. I wonder if a talented lawyer could argue it falls under abandoned property. The hotel side is required to keep some of that for up to a few years. Obviously this is different than sun glasses or a Rolex. But as part of a financial transaction, that makes it even more egregious. Like a stock broker cleaning out an account just because it hadn't been touched for some time.
Quote: AxelWolf(I wonder how Zcore will defend the casino in this situation?)
There's really nothing to say if they followed all rules regarding the situation. I was an Interim Slot Manager for 6 months. We had Ultimate X machines. I never and would never reset them. I would also never attempt to dissuade or prevent someone from vulturing them.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13There's really nothing to say if they followed all rules regarding the situation. I was an Interim Slot Manager for 6 months. We had Ultimate X machines. I never and would never reset them. I would also never attempt to dissuade or prevent someone from vulturing them.
ZCore13
Was this a possible scenario?
"Hi boss, it's me, Zc, the interim slot manager. If we reprogram the (name type of machine here) to wipe out multipliers after 16 minutes of inactivity we will clear an extra $286 per shift on average. What say you, boss?"
Unless illegal, why WOULDN'T the casino do that?
I know it's been discussed before, but is it legal for a casino to have a dealer or pit boss count cards and reshuffle BECAUSE there is a positive count?
Quote: AxelWolfI can get you in contact with her. I have a feeling she would love to speak to you about this.
Please make the introduction.
Quote: OOPSI know it's been discussed before, but is it legal for a casino to have a dealer or pit boss count cards and reshuffle BECAUSE there is a positive count?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at G2E one year there was an automatic shuffler that did this, only it just alerted the dealer if the count was significantly positive and let the dealer decide to shuffler early or not. I think Gaming ruled such preferential shuffling, aided by a device, would be illegal.
However, I've seen it happen lots of times where I raised my bet and a hand-held game got shuffled. This, I believe, doesn't break any regulations.
well in Nevada, i think the minimal return on slots is 75%Quote: smurgerburgerThis practice lowers the expected return of the game with optimal play to some unknown amount potentially lower than what regulators have approved. Seems to me that it would not be allowed.
what's the difference between the shuffler counting and the eye in the sky counting, alerting the pitboss of a high count, and the pit boss telling the dealer to shuffle?Quote: WizardSomeone correct me if I'm wrong, but at G2E one year there was an automatic shuffler that did this, only it just alerted the dealer if the count was significantly positive and let the dealer decide to shuffler early or not. I think Gaming ruled such preferential shuffling, aided by a device, would be illegal.
However, I've seen it happen lots of times where I raised my bet and a hand-held game got shuffled. This, I believe, doesn't break any regulations.
is the latter also illegal?
Quote: SOOPOOWas this a possible scenario?
"Hi boss, it's me, Zc, the interim slot manager. If we reprogram the (name type of machine here) to wipe out multipliers after 16 minutes of inactivity we will clear an extra $286 per shift on average. What say you, boss?"
Unless illegal, why WOULDN'T the casino do that?
I know it's been discussed before, but is it legal for a casino to have a dealer or pit boss count cards and reshuffle BECAUSE there is a positive count?
I wouldn't have had to call anyone to reset machines. Just tell my slot techs to reboot them every so often. Like I said, I would never do it. I didnt care about vultures.
Some of the newer Ultimate X machines clear the multipliers by themselves. I'm pretty sure they came out with an "upgrade" that allowed casinos to have this feature.
Every State is different. In many States, a re-shuffle can be called anytime. In Az, we can shuffle whenever, flat bet someone, cut the deck in half, ask someone to not play blackjack any longer or ban them. I only flat bet counters when I was Director. That just makes them leave on their own.
Where I currently work, they ban them. Even if they've never played in the casino before. An email goes out telling us a known counter has been seen in area casinos and ban him/her on site if seen.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13
Some of the newer Ultimate X machines clear the multipliers by themselves. I'm pretty sure they came out with an "upgrade" that allowed casinos to have this feature.
ZCore13
Can you offer an explanation why any casino would NOT want to have this 'upgrade' if legal and made available to them?
Quote: SOOPOOCan you offer an explanation why any casino would NOT want to have this 'upgrade' if legal and made available to them?
I can only answer for myself and my non-Las Vegas experience. I try and keep games as fair as possible. My goal is not to take everyone's money as fast as possible. I want to give people time on a game and entertainment. I know they are coming back and sending someone home to their wife down $500 in 90 minutes is not good for business. This applies to slots and table games.
I usually go with the lowest or closest to the lowest house edge pay tables for Carnival Games. I also usually add an additional payment to any progressive to reduce the house edge and add entertainment value. This is a payment not available on the felt payouts. For example, on High Card Flush, I invented a pay table that included a $1,000 pay for 4 of a Kind. I don't believe any other casino has ever used it.
95% of casinos in the U.S. are not Las Vegas. Not every casino wants to fleece you for every dime with fees, extra charges, the worst odds, sketchy rules or procedures, etc.
ZCore13
Quote: SOOPOOCan you offer an explanation why any casino would NOT want to have this 'upgrade' if legal and made available to them?
Generally it costs thousands of dollars to upgrade a machine. It may be that they just don't want to spend the money.
The difference between this and a progressive is that the progressive machine has a mechanism to reset the progressive to any level. These non progressive machines do not offer a way to reset the multipliers or bonuses.
In my OP: "She also mentioned that the gaming agent had some other interesting things to say about Advantage players related to this situation, but I don't want to sidetrack this particular situation."Quote: DRichIf Gaming knew a casino was going out and clearling multipliers on a regular basis they would not allow it. Most likely the casino is saying that they need to do maintenance on the machine which requires a reset.
I think you'll find it very interesting what they told her because it's in direct contrast to what you just said. I want to talk with her again to make sure it's okay to discuss that aspect publicly.
Quote: AxelWolfIn my OP: "She also mentioned that the gaming agent had some other interesting things to say about Advantage players related to this situation, but I don't want to sidetrack this particular situation."
I think you'll find it very interesting what they told her because it's in direct contrast to what you just said. I want to talk with her again to make sure it's okay to discuss that aspect publicly.
Trusting a Gaming agent may be as bad advice as asking a slot mechanic how a slot machine works. Many are inexperienced and most of them really don't understand the intricacies of slot machines. It might be similar to expecting a police officer to fully understand all of the laws, and I think we all know that many police are naive to many laws.
Quote: DRichTrusting a Gaming agent may be as bad advice as asking a slot mechanic how a slot machine works. Many are inexperienced and most of them really don't understand the intricacies of slot machines. It might be similar to expecting a police officer to fully understand all of the laws, and I think we all know that many police are naive to many laws.
When i took an electrician certification. The teacher said that when he was a journeyman. He complained to the inspector that he was within code. He failed the inspection for the whole subdivision. The journeyman was correct. Later in his career he saw an ad: Electrical inspector wanted, no electrical license required. Inspectors are sometimes more of a witness than expertise.
Weve noticed other code inspectors are uninformed.
Quote: jjjooogggWhen i took an electrician certification. The teacher said that when he was a journeyman. He complained to the inspector that he was within code. He failed the inspection for the whole subdivision. The journeyman was correct. Later in his career he saw an ad: Electrical inspector wanted, no electrical license required. Inspectors are sometimes more of a witness than expertise.
Weve noticed other code inspectors are uninformed.
That is how most if not almost all State Inspector and Surveillance jobs are in Az. No experience needed. No knowledge of table games needed. No game protection training. Barely any game rules and play training. Yest, they oversee everything.
ZCore13
This really had nothing to do with how the games work, I'll post it up later. I want to reconfirm for accuracy. The gist of it is... The gaming agent said they were doing this because of Advantage Players and that seemed to be his justification for defending the casinos actions(deleting multipliers).Quote: DRichTrusting a Gaming agent may be as bad advice as asking a slot mechanic how a slot machine works. Many are inexperienced and most of them really don't understand the intricacies of slot machines. It might be similar to expecting a police officer to fully understand all of the laws, and I think we all know that many police are naive to many laws.
This guy(the gaming agent) seemed very anti AP according to my source.
He had some other lame argument I'll get into later.
Notice how in the first picture the player earned four full houses with a 10-credit per hand bet, which should have earned a 12x multiplier, yet none is shown for the next hand.
Photo courtesy of Anon E. Mouse.
As a reminder, here is a screenshot from VideoPoker.com. It shows the current multiplier in a large font and the one for the next hand in a small font.
Does this picture not speak for itself, or can anyone offer any explanation why these full houses didn't earn multipliers on the next hand?
Quote: WizardHere is a picture sent to me.
Notice how in the first picture the player earned four full houses with a 10-credit per hand bet, which should have earned a 12x multiplier, yet none is shown for the next hand.
Photo courtesy of Anon E. Mouse.
As a reminder, here is a screenshot from VideoPoker.com. It shows the current multiplier in a large font and the one for the next hand in a small font.
Does this picture not speak for itself, or can anyone offer any explanation why these full houses didn't earn multipliers on the next hand?
This actually came up in another forum I post at just the other week. For UX machines in a casino, any variant with the same paytable will show the cards played for the last hand for EVERY denomination with that paytable. So the last hand played in that game was in a different denomination than the multipliers found.
This phenomenon also exists in other games.
A quarter royal I hit at Aria Row 802 in Sept. 2018.
Me coming back to the machine after dinner wishing I hit it at this denomination instead...lol
As for the OP, this is sick. And I definitely have never read a "16 minute rule" publicly.
The 16 minute rule(or however long it's supposed to be) sounds familiar going back to the central server type games where the casino could change the pay tables/hold on a machine at will as long as the machine set idle for x amount of time. I'm not sure what the rule is if the machine has a progressive. I'm trying to think back if the casinos ever attempted to change a pay table on a video poker Progressive mid play. I'm certain they never attempted it while I happened to be playing. I do remember some situations where they added a cap to the progressive and put up signs stating the cap amount.Quote: tringlomaneQuote: WizardHere is a picture sent to me.
Notice how in the first picture the player earned four full houses with a 10-credit per hand bet, which should have earned a 12x multiplier, yet none is shown for the next hand.
Photo courtesy of Anon E. Mouse.
As a reminder, here is a screenshot from VideoPoker.com. It shows the current multiplier in a large font and the one for the next hand in a small font.
Does this picture not speak for itself, or can anyone offer any explanation why these full houses didn't earn multipliers on the next hand?
This actually came up in another forum I post at just the other week. For UX machines in a casino, any variant with the same paytable will show the cards played for the last hand for EVERY denomination with that paytable. So the last hand played in that game was in a different denomination than the multipliers found.
This phenomenon also exists in other games.
A quarter royal I hit at Aria Row 802 in Sept. 2018.
Me coming back to the machine after dinner wishing I hit it at this denomination instead...lol
As for the OP, this is sick. And I definitely have never read a "16 minute rule" publicly.
Perhaps this is one of those situations where the make a new rule/law to protect people from new technology or whatever, meanwhile that rule ends up being used in a different way.
Quote: PinkI walked into the high limit at Rio to cut through traffic. It was empty. I noticed the slot supervisor was obviously CHECKING an ultimate x. The tell tale light was blinking. He did not see me. I walked behind him right as he pulled up a five play on 5$ with 4x one every line. Of course I was going to play it. Then he put a card in and pulled it out. All the cards were face down, "blue,' and multipliers were gone. As he pulled away from the machine he saw me and looked guilty. I thought I saw this last year at Wynn but that supervisor was slicker and I was not certain.
I’ve seen this happen at a different casino in a different jurisdiction, but in a different way. There is a very unique hand that is displayed on certain UX machines when the machine has been reset. It’s a broken low straight flush that will display on all hands, all games, all denominations, until someone plays a different hand on that particular game variant.
Anyway, these were nickel and dime machines, by which I don’t mean 5’s and 10’s...lol. They would just reset the entire thing, maybe there was no way to reset individual hands or that was seen as to onerous.
I can’t prove that the sole intent was to scrub multipliers, but that being said, these machines were reset somewhat frequently.
