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December 22nd, 2019 at 6:51:18 PM permalink
Around the globe? In america? anyone have any stats?
ksdjdj
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December 22nd, 2019 at 10:13:09 PM permalink
It doesn't really answer your question with a "total $ figure", but here are some articles you may find interesting.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/basic-casino-cheating-scams-hardest-to-catch-gaming-experts-say/

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/14/3857842/las-vegas-casino-security-versus-cheating-technology

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/scandals-casinos-gambling-las-vegas-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/

https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf

Note: Most of the links are about "players' cheating casinos", but the "harvardjsel.com" link is about the casinos "cheating" players, with "cheat prevention countermeasures".

There are many more, but I am not going to read them (just google what you had as the name for this thread, and you should find plenty, hopefully one will have a "$ figure" for you ?)

Otherwise, someone on this forum who is in the "casino business" could have better info to give you, maybe?
jjjoooggg
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December 22nd, 2019 at 11:02:09 PM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

It doesn't really answer your question with a "total $ figure", but here are some articles you may find interesting.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/basic-casino-cheating-scams-hardest-to-catch-gaming-experts-say/

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/14/3857842/las-vegas-casino-security-versus-cheating-technology

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/scandals-casinos-gambling-las-vegas-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/

https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf

Note: Most of the links are about "players' cheating casinos", but the "harvardjsel.com" link is about the casinos "cheating" players, with "cheat prevention countermeasures".

There are many more, but I am not going to read them (just google what you had as the name for this thread, and you should find plenty, hopefully one will have a "$ figure" for you ?)

Otherwise, someone on this forum who is in the "casino business" could have better info to give you, maybe?



I know that a casino in vegas cheats bc a dealer told me. Idk how often though. Its also risky for the casino?

Another retired dealer confirmed to me another way they cheat.
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
Zcore13
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December 22nd, 2019 at 11:28:52 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

I know that a casino in vegas cheats bc a dealer told me. Idk how often though. Its also risky for the casino?

Another retired dealer confirmed to me another way they cheat.



Lol. So, what did the dealer tell you he/they did to cheat?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
FleaStiff
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December 23rd, 2019 at 1:30:30 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Lol. So, what did the dealer tell you he/they did to cheat?

Retired dealer? Were you by any chance buying him drinks at the time? Buy me some drinks and I'll tell you some really juicy stories about casinos that cheat. Then you can buy me lunch at Burger King, so there will be even more whoppers! Them casinos spend zillions on advertising and public relations trying to attract and retain customers and along comes some low paid dealer whose got the skinny on how the casino cheats? Get Real!!
SOOPOO
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December 23rd, 2019 at 6:52:27 AM permalink
The only thing I know is that casinos spend a large multiple of what they lose to cheaters to prevent cheaters from taking more......
heatmap
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December 23rd, 2019 at 7:16:28 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

The only thing I know is that casinos spend a large multiple of what they lose to cheaters to prevent cheaters from taking more......



ive read something similar
TomG
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December 23rd, 2019 at 7:23:22 AM permalink
My hypothesis is that if you add up all cheating in all casinos, the casinos show a huge profit from it. The casinos cheat the players out of far more money than the players could ever cheat the casinos out of money. Here's one example of a Las Vegas casino attempting to cheat a player out of $30,000 by changing the odds after the bet has been resolved: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/big-wins/28555-paigow-bonus-casino-did-not-pay-full-amount-as-shown-on-the-table/ -- And that is in the most well-regulated gambling jurisdiction in the world. Imagine how much of this stuff goes on in unregulated places. I'm sure there are players here who could tell plenty of stories of casinos cheating them out of money.

The more I think about it, it isn't really a hypothesis so much as a certainty
Zcore13
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December 23rd, 2019 at 7:44:30 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

My hypothesis is that if you add up all cheating in all casinos, the casinos show a huge profit from it. The casinos cheat the players out of far more money than the players could ever cheat the casinos out of money. Here's one example of a Las Vegas casino attempting to cheat a player out of $30,000 by changing the odds after the bet has been resolved: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/big-wins/28555-paigow-bonus-casino-did-not-pay-full-amount-as-shown-on-the-table/ -- And that is in the most well-regulated gambling jurisdiction in the world. Imagine how much of this stuff goes on in unregulated places. I'm sure there are players here who could tell plenty of stories of casinos cheating them out of money.

The more I think about it, it isn't really a hypothesis so much as a certainty



I would not call that the Casino trying to cheat a player. To me that's a decision by an individual employee, not systematic cheating by a casino. That's like saying an entire police force is corrupt because 1 officer took a bribe. Or, a hospital murders patients because a nurse poisoned one.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
onenickelmiracle
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December 23rd, 2019 at 7:49:49 AM permalink
Any kind of security or protection is always supposed to cost more than losses, without them, it would keep happening repeatedly. We all have locks on our doors and our losses are less than the things stolen.
I am a robot.
Mission146
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December 23rd, 2019 at 7:57:08 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I would not call that the Casino trying to cheat a player. To me that's a decision by an individual employee, not systematic cheating by a casino. That's like saying an entire police force is corrupt because 1 officer took a bribe. Or, a hospital murders patients because a nurse poisoned one.

ZCore13



Just for one example: Is it systematic cheating when you have to make dozens of phone calls to a casino to get loss rebate funds as well as talking to a half dozen, or more, different people over the course of multiple months? Is it systematic cheating on a different loss rebate when players are 86'ed from the casino after incurring the loss, but prior to actually being able to get the promised free play?

I would say that it counts as cheating. In fact, the only way I was ever able to address it was by getting direct lines for people that most people aren't going to have access to or even know that is someone they can talk to. I should assume that many people did not get the rebate at all and simply decided it wasn't worth the effort and hassle to try to do so since it required spending hours on the phone arguing with people.

Is it cheating when a casino rolls out an ill-advised promotion and starts tossing people left and right who know how to beat it rather than simply turning off the games that they are playing in order to beat it?

Is it cheating when a casino resets a must-hit machine for no purpose other than to reset the (partially player funded) jackpot back to its starting point?

Is it cheating when a casino resets a vulturable machine for no purpose other than to clear the multipliers or conditions that make it beatable?

I have no reason to believe that YOUR casino engages in any form of cheating and would be very surprised that you would work there if you had any reason to believe it to be so. Further, I have every reason to doubt that you have personally engaged in cheating. That being said, the idea that some casinos (and casino companies) don't systematically cheat is a fanciful notion.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
TigerWu
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December 23rd, 2019 at 8:37:55 AM permalink
I imagine the kind of people that cheat in a casino are very low stakes gamblers to begin with. You know, some guy trying to past post a $25 chip at blackjack or something. Even when you hear about a very successful gang of cheaters, it's "only" like a few million dollars over the course of years, when a high roller or whale can lose as much in a single sitting. I bet the amount of money casinos lose to cheating in an entire year is more than covered by the money lost in a single average weekend.
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 11:11:25 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Retired dealer? Were you by any chance buying him drinks at the time? Buy me some drinks and I'll tell you some really juicy stories about casinos that cheat. Then you can buy me lunch at Burger King, so there will be even more whoppers! Them casinos spend zillions on advertising and public relations trying to attract and retain customers and along comes some low paid dealer whose got the skinny on how the casino cheats? Get Real!!



My friend’s ex gf’s mom is a retired dealer. She never volunteered info. I asked her questions with a yes or no answer. A Very specific way to cheat. She lives across the country. We were texting each other. Not in a situation for her to benefit.

Another dealer told me while i was playing

Im as shocked as you are. The fines are high. Gaming commission is prowling. Why cheat when you have an advantage already. I would think it happens on rare occasions. Unless the casino is in debt.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 23, 2019
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Ayecarumba
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December 23rd, 2019 at 12:57:22 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Around the globe? In america? anyone have any stats?



How do you define "cheating"? Is card counting cheating? How about edge sorting, shuffle tracking, dealer flashing, or handle popping?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 1:18:12 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

How do you define "cheating"? Is card counting cheating? How about edge sorting, shuffle tracking, dealer flashing, or handle popping?



If you limit to card counting. Its not as much as ppl think. Card counting is just above break even with alot of variance. Huge wins cover the negative variance. Thats why casinos pay more attention to higher stakes players
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
Ayecarumba
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December 23rd, 2019 at 1:24:59 PM permalink
On the house side, is preferential shuffling cheating? I consider the house tracking the count, then shuffling anytime a shoe is above a certain positive value for the player "cheating".
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 1:33:25 PM permalink
Maybe others dont want to talk about this. Maybe i ought to keep quiet

I recall the method discussed before
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jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 1:35:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

On the house side, is preferential shuffling cheating? I consider the house tracking the count, then shuffling anytime a shoe is above a certain positive value for the player "cheating".



Thats not cheating. No deception
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Ayecarumba
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:16:35 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

Thats not cheating. No deception



I disagree. The house is changing the conditions of play so that the player is always at a disadvantage. Players don't have the same option to call for a shuffle when a shoe goes way negative.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
SOOPOO
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:42:25 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I disagree. The house is changing the conditions of play so that the player is always at a disadvantage. Players don't have the same option to call for a shuffle when a shoe goes way negative.



Really!! I consider the right to NOT BET the same as ‘calling for a new shuffle’.

A casino has the majority of its games set so that they player is always at a disadvantage’! I assume you know this?
ksdjdj
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:46:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

On the house side, is preferential shuffling cheating? I consider the house tracking the count, then shuffling anytime a shoe is above a certain positive value for the player "cheating".


Quote: jjjoooggg

Thats not cheating. No deception


I think preferential shuffling is cheating*** or at least deceptive, if the casinos' don't have signage at the table that says the game is subject to preferential shuffling.
***: At the very minimum it is "unfair" to the vast majority of player's in the casino.

Think about it, if you are a "basic strategy rec player (non-counter)" flat betting in a 0.5% house edge game , you are supposed to lose about 0.5 units every 100 bets. But with the casino worried about a potential counter at the table, you (the 'rec player') are "unknowingly"^^^ being exposed to a game with a basic strategy house edge significantly worse than 0.5%, every time there is a preferential shuffle (in my book that is a type of cheating).

^^^: As of my last visit (2014) the casinos' did NOT put up any signs like "this table is subject to preferential shuffling (or similar)"
When I was in Vegas in 2014 on a holiday I was always 'flat betting the minimum' but also counting cards, and when the true count got somewhere between +1 to +2 'they shuffled the deck'. I then commented "you seem to be shuffling early" and the dealer said something like "sometimes we do that" and no further explanation (i didn't push it, because I was just playing for fun and to pass the time).
I went to other BJ tables, and over about an 8 hour period the same thing happened about 6+ more times whenever the 'true count' was between +1 and +2 (no signage about preferential shuffling at those table either)
Note: when the count was neutral or negative, they played through all the way to the 'cut-card'.

Read the link here >>> https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf
<<< from about page 71 to about page 74, as it has a good argument about casino "cheating" when it does things like preferential shuffling.

Important: I am generally NOT against a casino shuffling early if they do it by moving the cut card to reduce penetration, but if they do it so that they have a "bigger house edge" under the guise of "AP countermeasures", then yes I think it is cheating, especially if they don't post signage that they may do this.

I understand casinos' are a business, but there are plenty of countermeasures they can use besides preferential shuffling to reduce the effect that "potential APs" have on their bottom line

Edit/update (about 304 pm): FYI, I already had this opinion (or a similar) about "preferential shuffling" before I read the "harvardjsel.com" link above.
Last edited by: ksdjdj on Dec 23, 2019
Zcore13
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:48:36 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Really!! I consider the right to NOT BET the same as ‘calling for a new shuffle’.

A casino has the majority of its games set so that they player is always at a disadvantage’! I assume you know this?



That's similar to a situation I come across almost every day. A dealer makes a mistake, skips a player, forgets to deal themself a card, etc. I have the dealer finish the deal which is now out of normal order and then ask each player, "Would you like to take your bet back or play against the dealer up card?". Depending on the up card and player cards, some take their bets back, some want to continue to play. The riundcendcand people play the next hand. Sometimes when someone loses they want their money back for the hand because the cards were out of order from the last hand. I have to tell them, i can't do that, you chose to play knowing the situation.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
mcallister3200
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:57:05 PM permalink
Preferential shuffling is artificially and intentionally manipulating the house edge of the game outside of the rules of the game or published house edge. So is placing a cut card in a single deck game rather than a defined number of rounds, that is preferential shuffling by policy regardless of the player. By that definition it would meet the legal definition of cheating but nevada gaming has ruled otherwise, which shouldn't surprise anyone, depending on gaming regulation integrity is like counting on a public defender to go to bat for you to the same extent as a hired attorney.
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 3:07:59 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Preferential shuffling is artificially and intentionally manipulating the house edge of the game outside of the rules of the game or published house edge. So is placing a cut card in a single deck game rather than a defined number of rounds, that is preferential shuffling by policy regardless of the player. By that definition it would meet the legal definition of cheating but nevada gaming has ruled otherwise, which shouldn't surprise anyone, depending on gaming regulation integrity is like counting on a public defender to go to bat for you to the same extent as a hired attorney.



In theory, the dealer could dump positive half shoes making the game even more -ev. But you dont see this often. Because casinos dont make money waiting for a reshuffle. The average player plays basic strategy poorly and doesnt spread to take advantage of positive shoes.
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
ksdjdj
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December 23rd, 2019 at 3:23:23 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

In theory, the dealer could dump positive half shoes making the game even more -ev. But you dont see this often. Because casinos dont make money waiting for a reshuffle. The average player plays basic strategy poorly and doesnt spread to take advantage of positive shoes.


I agree that what you said is true.

But if you are unlucky enough to be playing at a table that does a preferential shuffle, then you are being "cheated" ***

***: even if you are a 'poor player' that stands on 12 to 16 against all dealer up-cards, you are still being "cheated", IMO.
Minty
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December 23rd, 2019 at 4:50:29 PM permalink
I think it's ok casinos have the right to back off and bar people and I've said it before because otherwise we'd get worse conditions as players. There are many things casinos can do that cross the line into cheating and I'd agree with Mission's previous post about what they are for the most part. Cheating could mean many things depending on if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint or from an ethical or moral standpoint.
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jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 8:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

I think it's ok casinos have the right to back off and bar people and I've said it before because otherwise we'd get worse conditions as players. There are many things casinos can do that cross the line into cheating and I'd agree with Mission's previous post about what they are for the most part. Cheating could mean many things depending on if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint or from an ethical or moral standpoint.



Happened to me only twice. I only played a few hands and the dealer confessed. He was upset that they were doing this.

Another time i was playing without spreading with the count. I heard the dealer a table over laugh and look at us. I kept losing but she said “you are lucky” after i lost alot. The dealer told me that i should have left when i was ahead. I was never ahead. The dealer looked at the amount on the table not factoring in pay in before the dealer switched into the table

A 3rd time i cant prove but its a casino thats already been caught by the authorities They owe alot of money for exclusivity rights.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 23, 2019
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Zcore13
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December 23rd, 2019 at 10:13:04 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

Happened to me only twice. I only played a few hands and the dealer confessed. He was upset that they were doing this.

Another time i was playing without card counting. I heard the dealer a table over laugh and look at us. I kept losing but she said “you are lucky” after i lost alot. The dealer told me that i should have left when i was ahead. I was never ahead. The dealer looked at the amount on the table not factoring in pay in before the dealer switched into the table

A 3rd time i cant prove but its a casino thats already been caught by authorities They owe alot of money for exclusivity rights.



You can't prove any of them.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 10:26:05 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You can't prove any of them.


ZCore13



Im not going to go into specifics discussed between the dealers and me

2 times are very rare occurrences over my play lifetime. Its not something a player should worry about.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 24, 2019
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TomG
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December 24th, 2019 at 6:16:46 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I would not call that the Casino trying to cheat a player. To me that's a decision by an individual employee, not systematic cheating by a casino. That's like saying an entire police force is corrupt because 1 officer took a bribe. Or, a hospital murders patients because a nurse poisoned one.



Great analogy with the hospital killing a patient. If it was done out in the open for everyone to see, and the people higher up than the nurse agree it was correct and do not do anything about it until law enforcement steps in, and then by all accounts the nurse keeps their job -- then I would say the nurse was not acting as an individual, but as an agent of the hospital.
TomG
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December 24th, 2019 at 6:26:49 AM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

I think preferential shuffling is cheating*** or at least deceptive, if the casinos' don't have signage at the table that says the game is subject to preferential shuffling.
***: At the very minimum it is "unfair" to the vast majority of player's in the casino.



As far as I know, casinos do not need to use a cut card. If they decided to do that, all shuffling would be discretionary, or "preferential" -- and it would not be cheating. It would also be completely transparent, not deceptive. And they would not need a sign to say "at a certain point we mix the cards up". Whenever a casino does employ preferential shuffling, it is always done for everyone to see the shuffle point -- it's hard for me to accept something as cheating when they are that open and transparent about it.
jjjoooggg
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December 24th, 2019 at 7:17:36 AM permalink
Delete
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 24, 2019
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ksdjdj
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December 24th, 2019 at 9:36:05 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

As far as I know, casinos do not need to use a cut card. If they decided to do that, all shuffling would be discretionary, or "preferential" -- and it would not be cheating. It would also be completely transparent, not deceptive. And they would not need a sign to say "at a certain point we mix the cards up". Whenever a casino does employ preferential shuffling, it is always done for everyone to see the shuffle point -- it's hard for me to accept something as cheating when they are that open and transparent about it.


If they did it after roughly the same amount of hands dealt/ or the same amount of cards have gone through the shoe, then yes I agree, but in my opinion a "preferential shuffle" means "shuffling early (only) when the deck is rich in player favorable cards".
Doing this costs*** the BS player an extra 1.5% (added to the house edge) so if a game has an average house edge of 0.5% (they are "unknowingly" playing into a game with an average house edge of ~ 2%).

***: it probably costs the 'poor player' the same or similar amounts too, but a poor player strategy may have a 5% house edge, and doing an early "preferential shuffle" will mean they are probably betting into about a 6.5% house edge, "unknowingly".

Remember, "cheating is generally defined as altering the elements of chance that determine the result of a game or the frequency of payment in a game...." (https://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2017/chapter-465/statute-465.015/ )

So by the above definition, when a casino does that kind of early "preferential shuffle" then they are "cheating"### every punter playing at the table. But the "honest recreational players" will be at the most disadvantage^*^ when this happens, as they will quite possibly NOT know what this is costing them, why this is happening, or any of the "rules" above that define "cheating" (even if the "rec player" knew any of these things, it would still be "cheating", as per the above definition)

###: I will concede that when a casino is "cheating", it is generally because they are "reacting" to a "cheating/possibly cheating player" (in other words, if there were no players' cheating in casinos', then the "fair casinos" would not even think to use this or other questionable "countermeasures").

^*^: The "counters", "AP's" and "cheating player's" would probably all leave the table when this happens, so only the "rec player" will be directly exposed to the "unfair shuffle".

Lastly, I will probably not post anymore to this thread about this particular topic (since I will just be repeating myself).

---
Back to the "thread starter's" original question(s): I have been searching since my last post, and I still can't find any industry wide $ specific info about "How much does cheating cost casinos per year?"
Last edited by: ksdjdj on Dec 24, 2019
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