SONBP2
SONBP2
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
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November 9th, 2010 at 8:53:34 AM permalink
I was looking at some video poker payouts the other day and I noticed how terrible the payouts were for several of the video poker games throughout the casino, the game in questions was a multi-denominational game $0.05-$0.50, same pay table for all denominations, and was only offering 1500 for a Royal Flush, are you kidding me?!

That simply got me thinking, obviously people are playing these games as I continue to see more and more games with these type of pay tables, so at what point is it better to take a chance at slots? I am not sure what the house edge is for a video poker game with this type of pay table, but I have to assume that is possibly as high as 5% and if that is the case then there are at least some $1 slots that guarantee a 98% return with a much higher jackpot.

So somebody please tell me at what point are video poker pay tables comparable to playing slot machines?

Thanks
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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November 9th, 2010 at 9:17:00 AM permalink
The average slot return for the $.25 denomination and below is 90% nationwide (a good rule of thumb). The absolute worst video poker paytables get down to 93-94% with perfect play. So video poker is still the better play. It is also easy to find out where the better video poker machines are located and seek them out. I agree they are getting pretty horrible, especially in the new jurisdictions like Pa.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
mkl654321
mkl654321
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November 9th, 2010 at 12:37:04 PM permalink
It's a pretty safe bet that if a given casino worsens its video poker, it is also worsening its slot payouts by an equivalent amount.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
cardshark
cardshark
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:11:07 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

It's a pretty safe bet that if a given casino worsens its video poker, it is also worsening its slot payouts by an equivalent amount.



Yeah, I was just going to say something to that effect. I wouldn't qualify the statement with "an equivalent amount", though - it could be an even lower downwards adjustment than what we are seeing in video poker!

We've witnessed in the last 5 years or so:

-Blackjack: S17 to H17, CSMs, 1-2-4 decks to 6 and 8, 6:5 and 1:1 BJ payoffs
-Video poker: worsening pay tables
-Three Card Poker: 1-4-6 to 1-3-6 paytable downgrades
-Slot clubs and promotions: less and less generous
-Almost complete disappearance of single-zero roulette in North America
-Introduction of new games and side bets with high house edges: Mississippi Stud (4.91%), Crapless Craps, Casino Backgammon just to name a few

So what do you think has been happening to slots!!! There is no doubt in my mind the payouts have been worsened on them, too.
cardshark
cardshark
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:14:35 PM permalink
To follow up on my post, did anyone see this coming? (By "this", I mean the deterioration of the quality of games.)

Was it to be expected that the games would get worse during rough times? Is there a correlation between increasing house edges and troubled casino finances? Should there be?
Doc
Doc
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:20:31 PM permalink
Quote: cardshark

... Is there a correlation between increasing house edges and troubled casino finances? Should there be?

I agree that this is an interesting question. For a constant level of wagering, tighter games would imply greater net revenue. On the opposite hand, tighter games would likely tend to drive customers away, reducing revenue. I have no idea how these balance off, and I am not convinced that casino management really understands it.
likeplayingcrapsandbj
likeplayingcrapsandbj
Joined: May 17, 2010
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:22:39 PM permalink
When will it stop?
I only play craps on the don't side.
BJ single deck 3:2 downtown.
Slots only on Friday night and only penny slots.
VP only when I can find 9:6 payout
I still get decent hotels, but the food/cash comps have dried up.
It just seems like everything is getting harder to win and new crazy games and crazy side bets.
Last Man at the Table
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:31:09 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I agree that this is an interesting question. For a constant level of wagering, tighter games would imply greater net revenue. On the opposite hand, tighter games would likely tend to drive customers away, reducing revenue. I have no idea how these balance off, and I am not convinced that casino management really understands it.



The successful parasite does not kill its host. If the casinos try to drink ALL their customers' blood at once, that strategy will backfire.

However, that is EXACTLY what casinos everywhere seem to be doing. They are the only business I am aware of that has responded to the recession by both raising the price and lowering the quality of the product it offers.

That is why, as I've posted elsewhere, I feel that Vegas is headed for an apocalyptic crash, with 50% of its casinos closing by 2015. They just don't seem to be plugged into reality.

My understanding of the "balancing off" is that any table game with a house edge of over about 3% sucks blood too fast to be sustainable. Slots that return less than 85% are similarly counterproductive, and that number is more like 92% at $1 and up denominations.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
SONBP2
SONBP2
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
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November 9th, 2010 at 2:39:10 PM permalink
I know there are still some decent games out there, but at some point if you just enjoy the casino experience and gambling then you may end up being like all the novice players who are there just to hit it big. By that, I mean there is going to come a point when the best vp machines you can find have a 95% payback and at that point there is no advantage so no matter how well you play the game you are losing money or at least much more than you use too when games were much more fair.

My wife and I consistently play games with a low house edge, bj 3:2, craps with odds, and video poker, but we consistently find that our "bankroll" runs dry very quickly. We stayed at the Luxor the other night because they gave us free rooms, not really sure why since we haven't played at MGM casinos in months, but we couldn't find any decent video poker games, but decided that was better than slots. We played $100 on vp, $0.25 machines, and didn't even play for 15min. Never hit better than a 3 of a kind. I was like did we just go through $100? I am a small player, but expect to get more than 15min of play on vp. We ended up winning it back on bj, but it is just frustrating to not even be able to enjoy the fun you get from just playing the games. We played a few slots and the penny slots just ate our money, but we did win a little playing a few $0.25 machines. We tend to allocate our bankroll primarily towards the "good" games, but are willing to take a risk on a few slots for fun.
likeplayingcrapsandbj
likeplayingcrapsandbj
Joined: May 17, 2010
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November 9th, 2010 at 3:08:02 PM permalink
Quote: SONBP2

I know there are still some decent games out there, but at some point if you just enjoy the casino experience and gambling then you may end up being like all the novice players who are there just to hit it big. By that, I mean there is going to come a point when the best vp machines you can find have a 95% payback and at that point there is no advantage so no matter how well you play the game you are losing money or at least much more than you use too when games were much more fair.

My wife and I consistently play games with a low house edge, bj 3:2, craps with odds, and video poker, but we consistently find that our "bankroll" runs dry very quickly. We stayed at the Luxor the other night because they gave us free rooms, not really sure why since we haven't played at MGM casinos in months, but we couldn't find any decent video poker games, but decided that was better than slots. We played $100 on vp, $0.25 machines, and didn't even play for 15min. Never hit better than a 3 of a kind. I was like did we just go through $100? I am a small player, but expect to get more than 15min of play on vp. We ended up winning it back on bj, but it is just frustrating to not even be able to enjoy the fun you get from just playing the games. We played a few slots and the penny slots just ate our money, but we did win a little playing a few $0.25 machines. We tend to allocate our bankroll primarily towards the "good" games, but are willing to take a risk on a few slots for fun.


I could not have written the above better myself. This last weekend I spent 4 days in wendover. Everything was tight except for Friday night. They raised the buffet prices and lowered the quality. Slots on Sunday were aweful. No return. Table games were packed. Wendover has reversed their raising the table mins from $5 back to $3. I guess they lost business.
Last Man at the Table

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