Lawmakers push for increase in W-2G threshold

Quote: FCBLComish

I agree 100% that the way gambling winnings are taxed is crazy. Having said that, the law is the law.

"The law is the law." And "the decline of casinos is the decline of casinos."

It is indisputable that taxes are disincentives on behavior. If people who makes hundreds or thousands of bets in a weekend are taxed on the winning bets and have limited ability to off-set the wins with their losses for tax purposes- then the entire structure of "the gambling experience" becomes non-functional. Becomes ruinous. Becomes deeply unattractive.

It will be the death-knell of casinos. The gambling industry cannot survive in its present form if the IRS taxes the winning bets and ignores the losing bets when calculating taxable income.

Everything you have worked for, FBCLComish, all of your life's work, will be reduced to sand and guano by these tax laws. But: "The law is the law."

Quote: darkoz

Also, any jackpot over $5000 (I dont believe it matters about the 300:1 win) is not only taxable but MUST have state and federal taxes removed at the top tax bracket. Again something that is not the case for regular slots where you can collect every penny and pay the taxes end of year

I do not think that lottery has the 300 to 1 rule for mandatory withholding.

Horse racing does though. That was updated a few years back to be total wager, not base unit of wager. Thus if you make a $1 pick 6 ticket that ends up as $232 with all the horses selected, you do not have W-2G or withholding on a $5220 win. Horse racing kept the $1200 and 300 times rules, but changed the base for the 300x calculation. With horse racing, the point was to keep more money circulating on horses to help the industry.

Quote: darkoz

In Atlantic city it does.

In NYS racinos it does not

It does in NY's actual casinos as well. NY has VLT halls, video bingo halls (Native American reservations), Indian casinos, and now commercial casinos. Where you play determines how tax reporting works. Like, I believe Monticello harness track was VLTs, but they pulled them out and sent everyone over to RW Catskills, which is a commercial casino. $600 wins at Monticello could be W-2G'd while $2000 wins might not be. At Resorts World, It is just $1200 and over.

Quote: itsmejeff

I do not think that lottery has the 300 to 1 rule for mandatory withholding.

Horse racing does though. That was updated a few years back to be total wager, not base unit of wager. Thus if you make a $1 pick 6 ticket that ends up as $232 with all the horses selected, you do not have W-2G or withholding on a $5220 win. Horse racing kept the $1200 and 300 times rules, but changed the base for the 300x calculation. With horse racing, the point was to keep more money circulating on horses to help the industry.
It does in NY's actual casinos as well. NY has VLT halls, video bingo halls (Native American reservations), Indian casinos, and now commercial casinos. Where you play determines how tax reporting works. Like, I believe Monticello harness track was VLTs, but they pulled them out and sent everyone over to RW Catskills, which is a commercial casino. $600 wins at Monticello could be W-2G'd while $2000 wins might not be. At Resorts World, It is just $1200 and over.

I am talking from personal experience

I have won a number of jackpots over $5,000 at multiple racinos in NYS and they always have 37% taxes removed mandatory even at $25 and $50 per spin which is where the bulk of my jackpots were won

Quote: Deucekies

A $100 bet getting paid 12:1 would not get a W2G.

On a slot machine it does!

Quote: gordonm888

"The law is the law." And "the decline of casinos is the decline of casinos."

It is indisputable that taxes are disincentives on behavior. If people who makes hundreds or thousands of bets in a weekend are taxed on the winning bets and have limited ability to off-set the wins with their losses for tax purposes- then the entire structure of "the gambling experience" becomes non-functional. Becomes ruinous. Becomes deeply unattractive.

It will be the death-knell of casinos. The gambling industry cannot survive in its present form if the IRS taxes the winning bets and ignores the losing bets when calculating taxable income.

Everything you have worked for, FBCLComish, all of your life's work, will be reduced to sand and guano by these tax laws. But: "The law is the law."

I never said I agreed with the laws, but I am an operator, not a legislator.

I did not realize how the VLTs worked. Very interesting. I learned something today.

Quote: darkoz

I am talking from personal experience

I have won a number of jackpots over $5,000 at multiple racinos in NYS and they always have 37% taxes removed mandatory even at $25 and $50 per spin which is where the bulk of my jackpots were won

Now on real slot machines, the $5000 rule does not apply. On table games it does.

The rules are very strange. There are several different types of wagers, and the taxation and withholding are different on each of them.

From the Federal Form

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/iw2g--2019.pdf


1. Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Jai Alai, and Other
Wagering Transactions Not Discussed Later (this includes Table Games)
File Form W-2G for every person to whom you pay $600 or more
in gambling winnings if the winnings are at least 300 times the
amount of the wager. If the person presenting the ticket for
payment is the sole owner of the ticket, complete Form W-2G
showing the name, address, and TIN of the winner. If regular
gambling withholding is required, the winner must sign Form
W-2G, under penalties of perjury, stating that he or she is the
sole owner and that the information listed on the form is correct.
If more than one person shares in the winnings from a single
wager, see Withholding and Forms W-2G for Multiple Winners,
later.

Withholding
You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the
winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are
at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 24% of the proceeds (the
winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.
If the winner of reportable gambling winnings doesn't provide
a TIN, you must backup withhold on any such winnings that
aren't subject to regular gambling withholding. The backup
withholding rate is identical to the regular withholding rate of
24%. That is, backup withholding of 24% applies if the winnings
are at least $600 but not more than $5,000 and are at least 300
times the wager. Figure backup withholding on the amount of the
winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by the amount
wagered

2. Sweepstakes, Wagering Pools, and Lotteries
File Form W-2G for each person to whom you pay $600 or more
in gambling winnings from a sweepstakes, wagering pool, or
lottery (including a state-conducted lottery) if the winnings are at
least 300 times the amount of the wager. The wager must be
subtracted from the total winnings to determine whether
withholding is required and, at the option of the payer, to
determine whether reporting is required. The wager must be
subtracted at the time of the first payment.
The requirements in this section apply to church raffles,
charity drawings, etc. In the case of one wager for multiple raffle
tickets, such as five for $1, the wager is considered as $.20 for
each ticket.

Withholding
You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the
winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000. Withhold 24% of the
proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular
gambling withholding. If the winner of reportable gambling
winnings doesn't provide a TIN, you must backup withhold on
any such winnings that aren't subject to regular gambling
withholding. that backup withholding rate is identical to the
regular withholding rate of 24%. That is, backup withholding of
24% applies if the winnings are at least $600 but not more than
$5,000 and are at least 300 times the wager. Figure backup
withholding on the amount of the winnings reduced, at the option
of the payer, by the amount wagered.

3. Bingo, Keno, and Slot Machines
File Form W-2G for every person to whom you pay $1,200 or
more in gambling winnings from bingo or slot machines, or
$1,500 or more from keno after the price of the wager for the
winning keno game is deducted. If the winnings aren't paid in
cash, the FMV of the item won is considered the amount of the
winnings. Total all winnings from all wagers made during a single
bingo or keno game to determine whether the winnings are
reportable. Winnings and losses from other wagering
transactions aren't to be taken into account in arriving at the
$1,200 or $1,500 figure.

Withholding
Regular gambling withholding doesn't apply to winnings from
bingo, keno, or slot machines. However, if the recipient of
reportable gambling winnings from bingo, keno, or slot machines
doesn't provide a TIN, you must backup withhold. That is, if the
winnings are at least $1,200 from bingo or slot machines or
$1,500 from keno, backup withholding of 24% applies to the
amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by
the amount wagered.

4. Poker Tournaments
File Form W-2G for each person to whom you pay more than
$5,000 in winnings, reduced by the amount of the wager or
buy-in, from each poker tournament you have sponsored.
Winnings and losses of the participant from other poker
tournaments you have sponsored during the year aren't taken
into account in arriving at the $5,000 amount.

Withholding and backup withholding. If you file Form W-2G
for the person to whom you pay more than $5,000 in net
winnings from a poker tournament, and provide a copy of Form
W-2G to such person, regular gambling withholding doesn't
apply to the winnings. However, if the person who wins more
than $5,000 doesn't provide a TIN, you must apply backup
withholding to the full amount of the winnings from the
tournament. The backup withholding rate is identical to the
regular withholding rate of 24%. Net winnings of $5,000 or less
aren't subject to reporting, withholding, or backup withholding.

Quote: FCBLComish

Now on real slot machines, the $5000 rule does not apply. On table games it does.

The rules are very strange. There are several different types of wagers, and the taxation and withholding are different on each of them.

From the Federal Form

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/iw2g--2019.pdf


1. Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Jai Alai, and Other
Wagering Transactions Not Discussed Later (this includes Table Games)
File Form W-2G for every person to whom you pay $600 or more
in gambling winnings if the winnings are at least 300 times the
amount of the wager. If the person presenting the ticket for
payment is the sole owner of the ticket, complete Form W-2G
showing the name, address, and TIN of the winner. If regular
gambling withholding is required, the winner must sign Form
W-2G, under penalties of perjury, stating that he or she is the
sole owner and that the information listed on the form is correct.
If more than one person shares in the winnings from a single
wager, see Withholding and Forms W-2G for Multiple Winners,
later.

Withholding
You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the
winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are
at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 24% of the proceeds (the
winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.
If the winner of reportable gambling winnings doesn't provide
a TIN, you must backup withhold on any such winnings that
aren't subject to regular gambling withholding. The backup
withholding rate is identical to the regular withholding rate of
24%. That is, backup withholding of 24% applies if the winnings
are at least $600 but not more than $5,000 and are at least 300
times the wager. Figure backup withholding on the amount of the
winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by the amount
wagered

2. Sweepstakes, Wagering Pools, and Lotteries
File Form W-2G for each person to whom you pay $600 or more
in gambling winnings from a sweepstakes, wagering pool, or
lottery (including a state-conducted lottery) if the winnings are at
least 300 times the amount of the wager. The wager must be
subtracted from the total winnings to determine whether
withholding is required and, at the option of the payer, to
determine whether reporting is required. The wager must be
subtracted at the time of the first payment.
The requirements in this section apply to church raffles,
charity drawings, etc. In the case of one wager for multiple raffle
tickets, such as five for $1, the wager is considered as $.20 for
each ticket.

Withholding
You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the
winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000. Withhold 24% of the
proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular
gambling withholding. If the winner of reportable gambling
winnings doesn't provide a TIN, you must backup withhold on
any such winnings that aren't subject to regular gambling
withholding. that backup withholding rate is identical to the
regular withholding rate of 24%. That is, backup withholding of
24% applies if the winnings are at least $600 but not more than
$5,000 and are at least 300 times the wager. Figure backup
withholding on the amount of the winnings reduced, at the option
of the payer, by the amount wagered.

3. Bingo, Keno, and Slot Machines
File Form W-2G for every person to whom you pay $1,200 or
more in gambling winnings from bingo or slot machines, or
$1,500 or more from keno after the price of the wager for the
winning keno game is deducted. If the winnings aren't paid in
cash, the FMV of the item won is considered the amount of the
winnings. Total all winnings from all wagers made during a single
bingo or keno game to determine whether the winnings are
reportable. Winnings and losses from other wagering
transactions aren't to be taken into account in arriving at the
$1,200 or $1,500 figure.

Withholding
Regular gambling withholding doesn't apply to winnings from
bingo, keno, or slot machines. However, if the recipient of
reportable gambling winnings from bingo, keno, or slot machines
doesn't provide a TIN, you must backup withhold. That is, if the
winnings are at least $1,200 from bingo or slot machines or
$1,500 from keno, backup withholding of 24% applies to the
amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by
the amount wagered.

4. Poker Tournaments
File Form W-2G for each person to whom you pay more than
$5,000 in winnings, reduced by the amount of the wager or
buy-in, from each poker tournament you have sponsored.
Winnings and losses of the participant from other poker
tournaments you have sponsored during the year aren't taken
into account in arriving at the $5,000 amount.

Withholding and backup withholding. If you file Form W-2G
for the person to whom you pay more than $5,000 in net
winnings from a poker tournament, and provide a copy of Form
W-2G to such person, regular gambling withholding doesn't
apply to the winnings. However, if the person who wins more
than $5,000 doesn't provide a TIN, you must apply backup
withholding to the full amount of the winnings from the
tournament. The backup withholding rate is identical to the
regular withholding rate of 24%. Net winnings of $5,000 or less
aren't subject to reporting, withholding, or backup withholding.

Yes, in AC when I ask them to withhold for me from slots (they give me a choice there) its 24%

NYS racinos do 37%. I don't know why. But I did get a decent sized tax refund this year as a result. In fact, it was waiting for me in my mailbox when I arrived home from the spring fling, a very nice way to end my vacation

New York mandatory withholding is federal, state, and, if applicable, city income tax. Federal is 24%, state is 8.82%, Yonkers is 1.477%, and New York City is 3.876%. For $5000 or more lottery win, the most you can walk away with is 67.118%. The least is 63.242%.

25 years ago, a tour bus operator told a bus full of seniors & me how much they put in the slot machines, and how much they won that day from the slot machines, based on the club card statistics. They had coin in & coin out stats for each of us on a daily basis. Like I may have put $312 into the nickel slots or won enough credits to make it seem that way, but won $316 back. I'd have a net of $4. It's easy to note wins and losses this way instead of through W-2G's, but after 100 trips to the casino it might be too much accounting for individuals who can't add. But for people who don't like tax forms, they may not like the coin in/coin out accounting method either.

Quote: darkoz

Yes, in AC when I ask them to withhold for me from slots (they give me a choice there) its 24%

NYS racinos do 37%. I don't know why. But I did get a decent sized tax refund this year as a result. In fact, it was waiting for me in my mailbox when I arrived home from the spring fling, a very nice way to end my vacation

How many hundreds of refund checks do you get? One for each player card? :)

Quote: FCBLComish

How many hundreds of refund checks do you get? One for each player card? :)

Lol, I dont do tax fraud.

If I win a jackpot with another players card in the machine I just show my ID. I get the credit and tax liability

Quote: darkoz

Lol, I dont do tax fraud.

If I win a jackpot with another players card in the machine I just show my ID. I get the credit and tax liability

There may be some joints that allow husband/wife to use each other's card but clearly this is a big issue at most places I've seen. I would not think of using another player's card.

Btw, I must apologize to the group for cluttering. I accidentally posted on this same subject and did not see that Aces & Eights had already established a big thread on this subject. My apology to the group.

I think the Commish was asking how many different casinos darkoz went to and scored 100+ handpays at each one.

Quote: darkoz

Lol, I dont do tax fraud.

If I win a jackpot with another players card in the machine I just show my ID. I get the credit and tax liability

I always wondered about how that would work.

What happens if you hit some sort of property random jackpot?

Quote: FCBLComish

I always wondered about how that would work.

What happens if you hit some sort of property random jackpot?

If there is another players card in the machine I just take it out. Most places dont question it.

I am aware of the few that do an usually head off the issue by stating when the slot attendant arrives "i was playing without my card but noticed someone left theirs in the machine."

I only had one casino ever refuse to pay me in this situation and I had the gaming commission summoned which confirmed it was my money, my finger that pushed the button and ordered the casino to pay.

Of course the casino flagged that particular card (as I knew they would) so I had actual person come down for his offers. We laughed at how 3 times security confronted him while using his card and demanded ID.

I run rings around casino security lol. They are a bunch of Bobbleheads.

Quote: darkoz

If there is another players card in the machine I just take it out. Most places dont question it.

I am aware of the few that do an usually head off the issue by stating when the slot attendant arrives "i was playing without my card but noticed someone left theirs in the machine."

I only had one casino ever refuse to pay me in this situation and I had the gaming commission summoned which confirmed it was my money, my finger that pushed the button and ordered the casino to pay.

Of course the casino flagged that particular card (as I knew they would) so I had actual person come down for his offers. We laughed at how 3 times security confronted him while using his card and demanded ID.

I run rings around casino security lol. They are a bunch of Bobbleheads.

Wow. Don't try that sh*t in California, lol. Of course they're going to pay you, no one is thinking they're not going to pay you, but they're going to do something, take away your card, kick you down the road, they're gonna do something. And that line about playing without your card and noticed someone left theirs in the machine, I don't know any Security that's going to fall for that. Your play is all on record, I'm sure you know that. You're just inviting trouble. You're a trouble-maker. lol

Quote: bobbartop

Wow. Don't try that sh*t in California, lol. Of course they're going to pay you, no one is thinking they're not going to pay you, but they're going to do something, take away your card, kick you down the road, they're gonna do something. And that line about playing without your card and noticed someone left theirs in the machine, I don't know any Security that's going to fall for that. Your play is all on record, I'm sure you know that. You're just inviting trouble. You're a trouble-maker. lol

So lets see.

A person loses their money and pissed off leaves the casino legitimately forgetting their players card in the machine.

You sit down and dont notice because you play unrated.

Its your belief in California that will result in a beatdown?

Lol, you really made my day.

Quote: darkoz

So lets see.

A person loses their money and pissed off leaves the casino legitimately forgetting their players card in the machine.

You sit down and dont notice because you play unrated.

Its your belief in California that will result in a beatdown?

Lol, you really made my day.

They will look at the cameras and see that you put that card into the machine when you sat down. Stop trying to lie to the casinos; it won't work.

Quote: darkoz

So lets see.

A person loses their money and pissed off leaves the casino legitimately forgetting their players card in the machine.

You sit down and dont notice because you play unrated.

Its your belief in California that will result in a beatdown?

Lol, you really made my day.

Thanks, you made my day too. You're a funny guy. :-)

Quote: KevinAA

They will look at the cameras and see that you put that card into the machine when you sat down. Stop trying to lie to the casinos; it won't work.

And yet I do it EVERY DAY

Sorry you are giving the casino surveillance too much credit.

Even if they did observe me putting the card in the machine so what?

There is NO GAMBLING STATUTE in any jurisdiction that states if a player inserts his own money and pushes the winning spin himself, the jackpot is forfeit if he inserted another persons players card.

Quote: darkoz

And yet I do it EVERY DAY

Sorry you are giving the casino surveillance too much credit.

Even if they did observe me putting the card in the machine so what?

There is NO GAMBLING STATUTE in any jurisdiction that states if a player inserts his own money and pushes the winning spin himself, the jackpot is forfeit if he inserted another persons players card.

Nobody's saying that. In fact, in a couple posts up the thread I said that no one's saying that. Look, you're not stupid, and I ain't stupid. There are lots of reasons to use other people's cards. You know that, I know that, and the casinos know that. Including Ellis Island. lol

Quote: bobbartop

Nobody's saying that. In fact, in a couple posts up the thread I said that no one's saying that. Look, you're not stupid, and I ain't stupid. There are lots of reasons to use other people's cards. You know that, I know that, and the casinos know that. Including Ellis Island. lol

But this is what you are saying:

Quote: bobbartop

Wow. Don't try that sh*t in California, lol. . . . they're going to do something, take away your card, kick you down the road, they're gonna do something. . . . You're just inviting trouble. You're a trouble-maker. lol

So, you're the one who started the chest pounding, the name calling and the threats/warnings about "Don't try that sh*t" to people who are not doing anything illegal. This kind of bluster is not respected by this forum whether its in California or on Ellis Island.

Quote: gordonm888

But this is what you are saying:



So, you're the one who started the chest pounding, the name calling and the threats/warnings about "Don't try that sh*t" to people who are not doing anything illegal. This kind of bluster is not respected by this forum whether its in California or on Ellis Island.

What are you talking about? I thought I was having a friendly conversation with Dark Oz. What "name calling" are you talking about? I didn't say anything was illegal, I said it's against casino rules and they will act on it. I'm sure you can figure out how people scam casinos with multiple cards. Where is your hostility coming from? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying, as I said, I thought I was having a friendly conversation. I don't know what your problem is. I think you just misunderstood. Geez, lighten up. You owe me an apology.

Quote: gordonm888

So, you're the one who started the chest pounding, the name calling and the threats/warnings about "Don't try that sh*t" to people who are not doing anything illegal. This kind of bluster is not respected by this forum whether its in California or on Ellis Island.

Here is a quote from a local casino's card rules. Hardly a "felony", and no one said it was.

"Any use of The Card by a person whose name does not appear on the card to earn or redeem points, comps, or other member's benefits may result in the revocation and loss of the named card holder's outstanding or earned points, privileges, prizes, or benefits."


If you live in Vegas, are you not aware of the people who carry around 100 cards with their friend's names on them? Have you never heard of casinos, like Ellis Island for instance, cleaning house and kicking a bunch of people out for having multiple cards? It's not a secret. Well, maybe it's a secret from you.

Quote: darkoz

And yet I do it EVERY DAY

Sorry you are giving the casino surveillance too much credit.

Even if they did observe me putting the card in the machine so what?

There is NO GAMBLING STATUTE in any jurisdiction that states if a player inserts his own money and pushes the winning spin himself, the jackpot is forfeit if he inserted another persons players card.

Actually true story- Table Mountain. Our largest slot player hit the property bonus jackpot of about $75k. He has his wife's card in the machine. They refused to pay. It was in their T&C that to qualify, you had to have your card in the machine. The jackpot could only have been won by a carded player.

Quote: bobbartop

What are you talking about? I thought I was having a friendly conversation with Dark Oz. What "name calling" are you talking about? I didn't say anything was illegal, I said it's against casino rules and they will act on it. I'm sure you can figure out how people scam casinos with multiple cards. Where is your hostility coming from? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying, as I said, I thought I was having a friendly conversation. I don't know what your problem is. I think you just misunderstood. Geez, lighten up. You owe me an apology.

Well, if you and DarkOz are best buddies and I interrupted a personal, friendly conversation then I do apologize to you and I am indeed sorry. But your posted comments sound like those of so many of the casino employees who confuse the casino rules with the law and who believe that casino security staff are permitted to act like thugs, to detain illegally, to confiscate winnings, and to abrogate civil liberties. IMO, your use of phrases such as "kick you down the highway" and "Don't try that sh*t in California" come across as hostile, and don't sound like "friendly conversation."

Quote: bobbartop

What "name calling" are you talking about?

You called DarkOz a "trouble-maker" in your post. I mean, d'uh! Try owning the words that you post, guy.

Quote: gordonm888

Well, if you and DarkOz are best buddies and I interrupted a personal, friendly conversation then I do apologize to you and I am indeed sorry. But your posted comments sound like those of so many of the casino employees who confuse the casino rules with the law and who believe that casino security staff are permitted to act like thugs, to detain illegally, to confiscate winnings, and to abrogate civil liberties. IMO, your use of phrases such as "kick you down the highway" and "Don't try that sh*t in California" come across as hostile, and don't sound like "friendly conversation."


You called DarkOz a "trouble-maker" in your post. I mean, d'uh! Try owning the words that you post, guy.

I'm kidding with him. Lighten the fk up. I didn't recommend the buzz saw, did I? Didn't you see the "lol" thingy? Next time I'll put some smiley faces. Look at my avatar, he was a friendly dictator.

Quote: gordonm888

Well, if you and DarkOz are best buddies and I interrupted a personal, friendly conversation then I do apologize to you and I am indeed sorry. But your posted comments sound like those of so many of the casino employees who confuse the casino rules with the law and who believe that casino security staff are permitted to act like thugs, to detain illegally, to confiscate winnings, and to abrogate civil liberties. IMO, your use of phrases such as "kick you down the highway" and "Don't try that sh*t in California" come across as hostile, and don't sound like "friendly conversation."


You called DarkOz a "trouble-maker" in your post. I mean, d'uh! Try owning the words that you post, guy.

I read his posts as if they were written by Eddie Haskell. It enriches the experience.

Quote: FCBLComish

Actually true story- Table Mountain. Our largest slot player hit the property bonus jackpot of about $75k. He has his wife's card in the machine. They refused to pay. It was in their T&C that to qualify, you had to have your card in the machine. The jackpot could only have been won by a carded player.

Wow, that's tough love. How did that go over with him? Did he remain a player there? It's only a little further up the hill to another nice casino. Of course there you have to worry about rival groups of Indians punching and tazing each other. lol What a crazy deal that was.

Btw, the jackpot I think was $120K the other day. I'd like to pick that lucky seat.

But I don't know about Table but you being in the industry I'm sure you know how much multiple card abuse can happen. Especially in Vegas. I don't know what they can do about it, except being less generous, which we're all used to. Maybe crack down on the big abusers, I know if Security wants to, they can figure out anything.

Quote: FCBLComish

Actually true story- Table Mountain. Our largest slot player hit the property bonus jackpot of about $75k. He has his wife's card in the machine. They refused to pay. It was in their T&C that to qualify, you had to have your card in the machine. The jackpot could only have been won by a carded player.

When you say property bonus that is some type of extra bonus on top of the slot game? I dont ever recall seeing that terminology out here on the East coast.

Also, any comments about what the casinos can get away with probably has little adherence in an Indian casino. They are notorious for abuse

Quote: darkoz

When you say property bonus that is some type of extra bonus on top of the slot game? I dont ever recall seeing that terminology out here on the East coast.

Also, any comments about what the casinos can get away with probably has little adherence in an Indian casino. They are notorious for abuse

I may be speaking out my ass but I get the impression that our Indian casinos (California) are friendlier than other states. I know they're not angels, but it's such big business here, they want to be nice. lol I know it's big business all over the country, but I can only judge California. I only see friendly people, from the drink girls, to the dealers, to Security, all the way up to management. Just friendly people.

Quote: bobbartop

I may be speaking out my ass but I get the impression that our Indian casinos (California) are friendlier than other states. I know they're not angels, but it's such big business here, they want to be nice. lol I know it's big business all over the country, but I can only judge California. I only see friendly people, from the drink girls, to the dealers, to Security, all the way up to management. Just friendly people.

I would agree. Been in Indian casinos in.6 or 8 states...NC, AL, WA, CA, MS, FL, MN, WI that I can think of. CA has the most professional and friendly attendants, in my experience.

I'd add NY (upstate) to friendly Indian casinos. I'm a guppy, and have always been treated well.

No idea how they treat APs.

California's casinos are definitely friendly & professional. Lots of other locals aren't. I think my last visit to Iowa was my final visit to Iowa.

Yes, those casino wide promos are on top of the slot games. For example, stations ran one this winter with a 10k reset and a 20k must hit. Gotta be using your card & when it hits most people get $10 and one guy gets $1x,xxx.

Quote: rdw4potus

California's casinos are definitely friendly & professional. Lots of other locals aren't. I think my last visit to Iowa was my final visit to Iowa.

Yes, those casino wide promos are on top of the slot games. For example, stations ran one this winter with a 10k reset and a 20k must hit. Gotta be using your card & when it hits most people get $10 and one guy gets $1x,xxx.

Oh, that was the Monopoly thing. Even though I am in California, I watched the Stations website and got texts on my phone each time one of their many casinos was approaching $20K. I would call my friend in Vegas who doesn't know how to use his phone. We're both old.

Quote: darkoz

When you say property bonus that is some type of extra bonus on top of the slot game? I dont ever recall seeing that terminology out here on the East coast.

Also, any comments about what the casinos can get away with probably has little adherence in an Indian casino. They are notorious for abuse

It is a random jackpot that can hit on any machine at any time. Has a minimum and a must hit by a certain amount. The program is from IGT and it is called "Carded Lucky Coin"

Quote: SOOPOO

I'd add NY (upstate) to friendly Indian casinos. I'm a guppy, and have always been treated well.

No idea how they treat APs.

I used to work in NY also.... Turning Stone. I was there from 1993 to 2001. Funny story. They used to sweat the money. I always treated AP very well. We had a deal that they would not win $2000 in a single session, and I would leave them alone.

I really am more of an AP than a Dark sider.....

Quote: FCBLComish

I used to work in NY also.... Turning Stone. I was there from 1993 to 2001. Funny story. They used to sweat the money. I always treated AP very well. We had a deal that they would not win $2000 in a single session, and I would leave them alone.

I really am more of an AP than a Dark sider.....

Work the BJ pits? The ones they never changed the cards on?

When TS has $500 BJ table limits, or even just $300 at the smaller sister casinos, I'm either there before they jack up the minimums past $10/$15 or they are still sweating the money.

Craps has a $10-$1000 limit, $5-$500 at the sister casinos. I'm trying to figure out how to reach table max bet on a run of 11 place bet 6's or 8's hitting during one shooter.

Quote: FCBLComish

I used to work in NY also.... Turning Stone. I was there from 1993 to 2001. Funny story. They used to sweat the money. I always treated AP very well. We had a deal that they would not win $2000 in a single session, and I would leave them alone.

I really am more of an AP than a Dark sider.....

Turning stone sweated their freeplay so bad they nearly went out of business. They had to have a big ad campaign when they switched over back in 2015.

They made it so freeplay resulted in a win OVER the amount.

I.E. if you had $100 freeplay and did just the playthrough and were left with $89 you could collect nothing.

And if you were left with $101 you could collect just the $1 over. They treated it like a temp loan which you had to actually win more than when finished

Business was so bad as a result they switched to freeplay as we know it in 2015 I believe

TS has some Match The Dealer plays. https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/match-the-dealer/
28/14 in Blackjack: 3/14 Eight-Deck Blackjack Analysis (3.67% HA)
24/12 in Spanish 21: 3/12 Eight-Deck Spanish 21 Analysis (3% HA)
Not sure how much of my original bet I should plunk down on these. 100%? 50%? 16.67%?

Quote: billryan

Work the BJ pits? The ones they never changed the cards on?

Yup. That's the one.

I am still wringing the sweat out of some of my clothes... That was 18 years ago.

Place was too cheap to spring for readers to check for blackjack so the cards ended hopelessly warped. It's hard not hitting a 17 when you know the dealer has a 20, but one had to pretend we didn't know the warped cards were tens.
Only other place I saw this was a now defunct casino in Searchlight.

Quote: Joeman

^^^Exactly!

I itemized for 2017, but took the standard deduction for 2018. Had to eat the tax burden for my sole W2-G even though my 2018 gambling showed a net loss. At least I don't have a reason to keep records of my gambling, any more! :/

Sadly, I still itemize. I say sadly because it is indicative of my large mortgage balance and high local taxes. Mortgage interest paid last year was around $18k, add in the $10k cap for SALT and I'm over the $24k standard deduction. Will continue to be for many years under current rules, unless we move and get a smaller mortgage.

Quote: ChumpChange

TS has some Match The Dealer plays. https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/match-the-dealer/
28/14 in Blackjack: 3/14 Eight-Deck Blackjack Analysis (3.67% HA)
24/12 in Spanish 21: 3/12 Eight-Deck Spanish 21 Analysis (3% HA)
Not sure how much of my original bet I should plunk down on these. 100%? 50%? 16.67%?

ChumpChange,

0% is optimal... Why would you want to buck a 3+% house edge?

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

The dealer gets upset when I don't bet on winning hands.

Quote: ChumpChange

The dealer gets upset when I don't bet on winning hands.

Because they just missed out on a potential tip. And they are very prone to voodoo crap and they only notice certain events that they think has meaning.

Here's my article on this for LCB for anyone interested:

https://lcb.org/news/editorials/w-2g-threshold-increase

Quote: Mission146

Here's my article on this for LCB for anyone interested:

https://lcb.org/news/editorials/w-2g-threshold-increase

Seems like free play should automatically be part of the win/loss, as it all comes out in the wash. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that it would not. Also assuming that players card is always used.

Free play is generally NOT included in win/loss statements.

From my own personal experience of a few dozen casinos on the East Coast I have witnessed only ONE casino that did (which leads me to believe they were incorrect in their approach)

Anecdotally I had one casino suggest they would claim my taking freeplay resulted in my winning an unfair amount of money (on multiple cards)

I quickly printed out all the online win/loss statements which to almost everyone stated a total loss for the year. I was quite prepared to ascertain in court how either their own documentation was incorrect and how their own evidence supported any type of wins.

Of course I did win quite a large amount. But not according to their own tracking system (and you had to keep the card in while using freeplay so there was no method for falsifying wins from freeplay)

The threat of the court case never came to fruition. I am certain their attorneys realized they were not going to win.

At any rate, my suspicion as to why freeplay is not included is because IRS rules state cash won from freeplay is NOT income as long as its a rebate on prior purchases (ex. Gambling that earns offers predicated on prior play) just like frequent flier miles are not income.

For example, if you wanted to show ALL the expenses from a particular airline (30 flights lets say totalling $30,000) you would not then subtract the value of 2 flights from frequent flier miles and list your expenses as only $28,000.