Obamacare unconstitutional (no joke)

why can't there be an expected itemized cost per procedure BEFORE getting the treatment, like dentists do? I hate the fact nobody knows how much anything will cost beforehand. Can I have some options as to what to treat or not?

Quote: darkoz

Uhh

Didnt they force everyone to get digital signals and throw out all those rabbit ears a few years ago

Still free though

Quote: OnceDear

Short time? 75 years? So, we managed to have our NHS survive for about 75 years. We love it, we fight for it and it survives.

Should we aspire to just abandon it and go for a US equivalent?.

I don't care what you fight for. Fact is you accept wait times as "normal." A hidden problem is do the Brits make the new procedures in medical care or just adopt them from somewhere else? In a socialized system you will get far less innovation over the long term.

As to the UK there is also an "island effect." The UK is about the size of PA and NY states. A satellite pic shows how most of that is concentrated in the southern part:



Thus you get economies of scale you will not get in the USA. As socialism only "works" in the Nordic countries, maybe you in the UK have that with your system. But I do not want my government running the show. The ones I see most running it are the types I was in the OWS movement. I saw them hanging around a square in tents, having a group party while I was on my way to a job. Go figure.

Quote: aceofspades

Still free though

The 'Free to air' TV network was analog with picture aspect ratio of 4:3 with 5. Yes FIVE channels. Then Digital 'Freeview' was introduced. It used the same RF masts but with different underlying infrastructure. For a year or so there was parallel running, but that was a compromise on signal quality and channel availability. During transition, we would buy a set top box to get the digital channels on an analog TV. Shops stopped selling analog only 4:3 TVs but the new digital TV's could cope with analog, till it was eventually decommissioned.
Satellite TV was long available alongside and much of the country, though not all, could get cable. Because of the population density here, free to air tv is pretty much universally available.

Now we have Digital free to air with about 70 channels (most rubbish repeats) The only cost for those is the TV licence fee plus toleration of advert breaks on most channels.

Satellite TV and cable still exist, and are subscription based.

Internet TV has only picked up in the last few years. The core 5 channels are free on all platforms.

Weirdly, we still need a TV licence for ANY platform that is capable of receiving TV broadcast even if it's a computer with IP access. Effectively every home needs one TV license and the TV Licensing authority hounds the owner/ resident of any home that does not have a license. The burden of proof of 'No TV here' is a bone of contention.

Quote: AZDuffman

Fact is you accept wait times as "normal."

I use the expression "acceptable quality at appropriate cost"
What's the wait time for a typical working class US person, or a non-wealthy old person, or anyone who cannot afford treatment and doesn't have 'affordable care' if he wants his hernia or cancer treated?
Do US people suffer or die because they cannot afford to even join a queue, let alone jump it?
Do US people face the stress of deciding between food or treatment?

Quote:

A hidden problem is do the Brits make the new procedures in medical care or just adopt them from somewhere else? In a socialized system you will get far less innovation over the long term.

Cite your evidence. I reckon we adopt the best practises whether invented in the US, or developed by some of our best university hospitals. UK hospitals were ground breakers in many facets of treatment.

Quote:

As to the UK there is also an "island effect." The UK is about the size of PA and NY states. A satellite pic shows how most of that is concentrated in the southern part:

That may make it work better here than in the US. If we have an advantage there, then we are fortunate. I'm sure there is a downside too. Swings and roundabouts.

Quote:

Thus you get economies of scale you will not get in the USA.

maybe.

Quote:

But I do not want my government running the show. The ones I see most running it are the types I was in the OWS movement. I saw them hanging around a square in tents, having a group party while I was on my way to a job. Go figure.

Government holds the top level purse strings and policy control and demands decent value for money. Day to day admin is done by Health Trusts which are much scrutinised by both government and the public at large. Much leaner than it used to be. The 'hanging around' parasites have largely been swept out decades ago.

Quote: aceofspades

Still free though

When US signals switched to digital. free signal conversion boxes were given out. Proof our government did not want the people to go without their programming.

Que Bono?

Quote: petroglyph

When US signals switched to digital. free signal conversion boxes were given out. Proof our government did not want the people to go without their programming.

Que Bono?

Free...... Who paid for that? Where did your government get the free boxes, free?
Mine cost me 20 quid.

Quote: OnceDear

Free...... Who paid for that? Where did your government get the free boxes, free?

They came from the same distributor that hands out all the "free" health care in various countries.

Quote: AZDuffman

A few posts above a Brit has stated that you can "pay extra to jump the line." Is that what you really want?

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

Quote: rxwine

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

We have that now, you do not seem to like it. What I do not like is my government telling me, "Here is this great health care system, but since waits are long you can pay extra to get out of it."

And if you think resentment of "the rich" is bad now, just wait! People scream if someone gets to move to the hear of the line at Disney resorts. How will that play? All such a system will do is set up decades more of health care battles.

The reason our healthcare system is like it is, is because the money powers want it like this. Billions funneled to CEO's of insurance company's who if "it were fair" would be paid about the same amount as the CEO for Costco.

Who wrote the ACA? Lobbyists and health insurance company's. Obama paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in pork to get the votes to have it pass. It passed without even being read by congress, that's where Pelosi coined the phrase, "we have to pass it to see what's in it".

They didn't even read it, before voting on it. Does that sound like a representative government? Not to me. That is the same way that our trade agreements, that are actually treaties were passed,,,,without being read. That's how we got NAFTA, the GATT. WTO, etc. etc. etc. Those treaties that in some cases supersede our constitution were foisted upon us freedom loving Americans, without even the courtesy of lubrication.

I just want the same health care that congress gives themselves. I want something like Medicare for everyone, with some kind of co pay to lesson abuses, [using ambulances as taxi's]. People need skin in the game or the hypochondriacs and the Munchausens people will plug the waiting rooms.

We supposedly have this capitalist system for "sickcare" yet we rate something like 37th in the world. A YUGE problem with the way it is is, in trade competition American manufacturers have to compete in a world where the rest of the western country's [and some of the eastern] have free healthcare. In practice Boeing has to pay for their employees healthcare, while Airbus doesn't. That is a huge disadvantage to American business's.

The new improved Medicare for all needs to have prescription pricing veto power over these insane scrip prices! I saw a few days ago some mark up, IIRC for the most common medicines can be as high as 72,000%. Epi pens went up 600% almost overnight. Our government gives extended patents on Lipitor and other common meds, and bars generic competition. It's ridiculous.

One of the reasons low income people will not go to work [thousands of workers needed] is because they will lose their healthcare.

All government workers have HQ healthcare, Vets have free healthcare. Welfare folk, indigent, illegals all get healthcare. Who's lives are crushed by not having free/cheap healthcare? The shrinking productive class. As was said above, the main reason for life destroying bankruptcy's is medical bills. Older workers could leave the workforce and make way for millenials, if they could afford healthcare.

Look what our "capitalist" system does to Dr's. It burns them out with shortened life expectancy's, from stress dealing with all this crap.

I contend that TPTB, do not want this fixed, or it wouldn't be like it is. end rant

Quote: AZDuffman

And if you think resentment of "the rich" is bad now, just wait! People scream if someone gets to move to the hear of the line at Disney resorts. How will that play? All such a system will do is set up decades more of health care battles.

LOL> That already happens. It's been happening for years. You ever notice the separate line at the players clubs at casinos for the high point earners. Right out in the open.


Happens everywhere even if you don't see it. Wake up.

Express service. Often it even has a name.

Quote: petroglyph

The reason our healthcare system is like it is, is because the money powers want it like this. Billions funneled to CEO's of insurance company's who if "it were fair" would be paid about the same amount as the CEO for Costco.

Executive pay is not really the problem and health insurance does not have a very high ROI.

Quote: rxwine

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

Of course. If urgent treatment is required, then urgent treatment is received urgently. Only a fool or someone with more money than sense would expect to pay extra in an emergency. Private hospitals do not tend to operate Accident and Emergency Services (ER) They are geared more for routine hospital treatments.
For private medical treatment, we would normally get a referral from our NHS general practitioner. He'd do the initial consultation (generally) and might (but is unlikely to) say "Sorry but there's a two month waiting list, but you cold go private and get treated in 2 weeks.

AZD's reasoning strikes me as flawed. He seems to say that Nationalised Health services like ours are a bad idea because they will either lead to the death of private treatment and thence to long waits, or will inevitably get privatised by stealth to eventually give a 2 tier service, which he also finds to be bad. I see our combination of NHS/Private to be the best of both worlds, not the worst of both worlds. Choice. Everyone gets the treatment he needs. Some pay a premium for premium service and take pressure of the NHS as a result. NHS and private treatment may be in separate establishments, or the NHS trust may buy in service or share facilities with the private operators. E.g. Co-located hospitals might share a body scanner, with costs and time allocated appropriately. Win-Win.

Pharmacuitical companies, especially, know that with the NHS, there will be tussles over money, but a government has more bargainng power than a provincial medical practice.

Quote: rxwine

LOL> That already happens. It's been happening for years. You ever notice the separate line at the players clubs at casinos for the high point earners. Right out in the open.


Happens everywhere even if you don't see it. Wake up.

I see it. Difference is I am not forced to go into a casino run by the government.

Quote: RS

Plus, look at places like Europe and Canada....do we REALLY want to follow their lead?

I wish we would.

Quote: OnceDear

I use the expression "acceptable quality at appropriate cost"
What's the wait time for a typical working class US person, or a non-wealthy old person, or anyone who cannot afford treatment and doesn't have 'affordable care' if he wants his hernia or cancer treated?
Do US people suffer or die because they cannot afford to even join a queue, let alone jump it?
Do US people face the stress of deciding between food or treatment?

I had exceptional medical insurance and moved to a new area. It took a few days to find a Dr. that would accept my insurance and I had to wait 4 weeks for an appt.

I had to have that appt. to get a referral to the Dr. I actually needed to see, a Dr. who could perform a spinal epidural with fluoroscopy [sp]. It took 4 weeks to see that Dr. who set me up for the epidural 2 weeks later. So for a herniated disc, steroid injection, while in a lot of pain, it took ten weeks to get an injection.

To add insult to injury, I think this guy was some kind of sadist, who rather than give the regular epidural, gave 6 facet joint injections, which take a very long needle, as they go in from the side. All without even local anesthetic.

Quote: petroglyph

The new improved Medicare for all needs to have prescription pricing veto power over these insane scrip prices! I saw a few days ago some mark up, IIRC for the most common medicines can be as high as 72,000%. Epi pens went up 600% almost overnight. Our government gives extended patents on Lipitor and other common meds, and bars generic competition. It's ridiculous.

I reckon big Pharma is a big part of the problem, much more than other medical provision. Except for generic treatments, the big pharmaceuticals set their own absurd prices and write their own check and the poor old service user gets the tab. Only the pricing power of a nation state would stand a cat in heels chance of controlling that cost. Of course, you have lots of lobbying and you know who has skin it that game.

* Confession time: I have shares in big pharmaceuticals. OnceDear=capitalist b45t4rd.

Quote: OnceDear

AZD's reasoning strikes me as flawed. He seems to say that Nationalised Health services like ours are a bad idea because they will either lead to the death of private treatment and thence to long waits, or will inevitably get privatised by stealth to eventually give a 2 tier service, which he also finds to be bad. I see our combination of NHS/Private to be the best of both worlds, not the worst of both worlds. Choice. Everyone gets the treatment he needs. Some pay a premium for premium service and take pressure of the NHS as a result. NHS and private treatment may be in separate establishments, or the NHS trust may buy in service or share facilities with the private operators. E.g. Co-located hospitals might share a body scanner, with costs and time allocated appropriately. Win-Win.

You like it because it is what you know. I have seen our VA hospitals, which will bring a person to tears. I simply do not trust government. Besides the VA, I look at how they have run Indian Reservations. How they have put troops in harms way to test long term effect of radiation. Public housing. All of it is just plain awful.

Why would I want to turn health care over to them?

Quote: AZDuffman

You like it because it is what you know. I have seen our VA hospitals, which will bring a person to tears. I simply do not trust government. Besides the VA, I look at how they have run Indian Reservations. How they have put troops in harms way to test long term effect of radiation. Public housing. All of it is just plain awful.

Why would I want to turn health care over to them?

So, do you suggest closing those badly run VA hospitals? Knock down the public housing?

Easy to tear stuff down, not so easy to replace.

Your VA needs the right leaders, the right funding, the right oversight, the right policies. Sounds like it doesn't have all those.
But you have what you have and this isn't really the correct forum or thread for such pure politics.

We had rubbish NHS hospitals and Trusts and systems and employees. It's a constant thread that needs constantly revisiting. Top down from government and bottom up by local activists. Neither of those can or will do it alone.

Quote: OnceDear

So, do you suggest closing those badly run VA hospitals? Knock down the public housing?

Lots of the public housing has been knocked down. The VA does need a huge overhaul, but it will never really be fixed, a sad thing. As vets die off maybe we get some improvement due to reduced demand.

Quote:

We had rubbish NHS hospitals and Trusts and systems and employees. It's a constant thread that needs constantly revisiting. Top down from government and bottom up by local activists. Neither of those can or will do it alone.

Now you are starting to see what I am saying. I don't want to have to keep watching government run hospitals, I want to go to a better hospital if I choose.

Quote: djatc

why can't there be an expected itemized cost per procedure BEFORE getting the treatment, like dentists do? I hate the fact nobody knows how much anything will cost beforehand. Can I have some options as to what to treat or not?

Golly.... Have YOU ever asked? Has a health care provider EVER not answered a question YOU asked about how much something will cost?

Quote: petroglyph

I had exceptional medical insurance and moved to a new area. It took a few days to find a Dr. that would accept my insurance and I had to wait 4 weeks for an appt.

I had to have that appt. to get a referral to the Dr. I actually needed to see, a Dr. who could perform a spinal epidural with fluoroscopy [sp]. It took 4 weeks to see that Dr. who set me up for the epidural 2 weeks later. So for a herniated disc, steroid injection, while in a lot of pain, it took ten weeks to get an injection.

To add insult to injury, I think this guy was some kind of sadist, who rather than give the regular epidural, gave 6 facet joint injections, which take a very long needle, as they go in from the side. All without even local anesthetic.

Sounds like the worst of all worlds? What might have made it better? Non-acceptance of your insurance seems to be a big problem. Maybe a system where centralised or collective bargaining were combined with and tempered by healthy competition might work?

Quote: AZDuffman

Lots of the public housing has been knocked down. The VA does need a huge overhaul, but it will never really be fixed, a sad thing. As vets die off maybe we get some improvement due to reduced demand.



Now you are starting to see what I am saying. I don't want to have to keep watching government run hospitals, I want to go to a better hospital if I choose.

LOL, so you do want the sort of choice that I have? And there was me thinking you were against it.

ALL hospitals MUST meet minimum standards. Who can dispute that?
Hospitals that meet minimal standards must be accessible to YOU (whoever you are)

Now, we could discuss the funding aspects till the cows come home. Our starting point in the UK is different to that in the US. The next big decision is which direction to travel.

What you are experiencing is a vocal minority.

The majority of us citizens favor expanding socialized medicine here. That includes 52% of republicans

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-americans-now-support-medicare-for-all-and-free-college-tuition.html

Surprisingly, there are more in favor of that than marijuana legalization.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/08/americans-support-marijuana-legalization/?amp=1

Things will change, but slowly. In addition to gridlock, the 535 representatives in the federal government do not really represent the will of the people. (I'm expecting the minority to state that this is a good thing)
Limit those surveys to them, and the results will be quite different.

I know not everything a majority wants is a good idea, practical, or possible, but that does not invalidate their views when they are not like that.

Quote: Dalex64

The majority of us citizens favor expanding socialized medicine here

Only because they have no idea
how much it sucks. My bro in
law in Canada comes here when
he wants something done in
a timely fashion. He doesn't
want to wait 12 weeks (the average)
to get an MRI, when he can get
one here in usually 10 days or less.

Quote: Dalex64

What you are experiencing is a vocal minority.

The majority of us citizens favor expanding socialized medicine here. That includes 52% of republicans

Serious question...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Republican party generally in favor of socialised medical treatment, but that they dug their heels in in the opposite direction as a way of taking Obama down. Didn't that force upon ObamaCare the sort of compromises that rendered it weaker than it needed to be.

I CAN understand how your society would be against the imposition of a new 'tax' or system that forced you to pay for such a socialist concept. Land of the free and all that.
My counterpoint is that with majority support, you could make something like it not only work, but actually cost in.
It's just about the very concept of insurance: It needs some to contribute more than they use because some will be randomly unlucky enough to use more than they can contribute.

There will always be piss takers and parasites, just as there will always be parasitic lobbyists. Both are a problem.

Quote: EvenBob

Only because they have no idea
how much it sucks. My bro in
law in Canada comes here when
he wants something done in
a timely fashion. He doesn't
want to wait 12 weeks (the average)
to get an MRI, when he can get
one here in usually 10 days or less.

He has money, he exercises his right to choose. Do you have any family or friends that cannot access an MRI at all, because of the cost? He might head to Canada and be gratetful of 12 weeks.

Quote: OnceDear

I use the expression "acceptable quality at appropriate cost"
What's the wait time for a typical working class US person, or a non-wealthy old person, or anyone who cannot afford treatment and doesn't have 'affordable care' if he wants his hernia or cancer treated?
Do US people suffer or die because they cannot afford to even join a queue, let alone jump it?

It's obviously hard to determine how many die by something like lack of medical treatment. But, if you believe experts conducting empirical studies, well over 10,000 people die every year.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/


Our politicians think it is worth it to preserve corporate profits. It is that simple.

Again, this isn't really a controversial issue per se. As much as our politicians and media lie about the issue, 70% of America agrees with you.

All of the factual information really is on one side.

Your wait times are no worse than ours.

You pay half as much.

For paying double, we get thousands of deaths and the number one cause of bankruptcy.

It's really just ideological extremists and corporations that favor our system. And I guess some rich people.

You could privatize the VA. Guess who comes out against it? Most of the veterans who use it.

See the first sentence on the VA site itself. More veterans are "scared" they are going to be privatized.

Quote:

There is no effort underway to privatize VA, and to suggest otherwise is completely false and a red herring designed to distract and avoid honest debate on the real issues surrounding Veterans’ health care.

https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=4034

Quote: Rigondeaux

It's really just ideological extremists and corporations that favor our system. And I guess some rich people.

That's one aspect: The other seems to be "Why should I be forced to pay for something I won't use when that lazy unemployed guy will get an equal service at no cost to him?" A slightly trickier question, I reckon. But I answer it with "If everyone had SOME access to ACCEPTABLE healthcare, even if I have to pay for it, that might save ME from a pandemic. It might save ME from absurd drug costs in the control of big corporations which have never had to compete on price."
Helping the poor might just keep a bit of civilization together, because the alternative might be ghettos.

Just weigh up the evidence. Real, Today, Here and now evidence.

Quote: petroglyph

I had to have that appt. to get a referral to the Dr. I actually needed to see, a Dr. who could perform a spinal epidural with fluoroscopy [sp]. It took 4 weeks to see that Dr. who set me up for the epidural 2 weeks later. So for a herniated disc, steroid injection, while in a lot of pain, it took ten weeks to get an injection.

To add insult to injury, I think this guy was some kind of sadist, who rather than give the regular epidural, gave 6 facet joint injections, which take a very long needle, as they go in from the side. All without even local anesthetic.

That risky procedure, could have left you paralyzed. My friend had the procedure, and lost the sense of feel in his fingertips.

When I had herniated disks a few years ago, my physician wanted to schedule me for spinal injections and spinal fusion surgery two weeks after my initial visit.

Fortunately I saw this on Dr. Oz, the same day, and opted for chiropractic treatment, which healed my condition within a few weeks.

Quote: ams288

Hasn’t the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the ACA twice now?

Gotta love those activist Texas judges!

Yes, they did but the Supreme Court upheld the ACA on the basis that the individual mandate was no more than an income tax rule, and thus was within the rights of the federal government. Now that the Congress subsequently removed the income tax penalty, the Congress has no Constitutional authority to require people to buy health insurance, thus allowing parts or all of the ACA to lapse into "un-constitutionality".

Quote: Boz

Some days are better than others for working Americans. Yesterday was one of the best! When the SC upholds it will an even better one.

Now if we could just get the Farm Bill with the work requirements passed.

Make Americans Accountable Again!

*bookmarking this post for future use*

Quote: gordonm888

Yes, they did but the Supreme Court upheld the ACA on the basis that the individual mandate was no more than an income tax rule, and thus was within the rights of the federal government. Now that the Congress subsequently removed the income tax penalty, the Congress has no Constitutional authority to require people to buy health insurance, thus allowing parts or all of the ACA to lapse into "un-constitutionality".

It's an interesting argument, but the penalty was reduced to zero, not eliminated. A subtle difference, to you and me but something lawyers will argue over for the next two years. I think it's the biggest gift to Democrats since the trumkorph himself.

Quote: OnceDear

That's one aspect: The other seems to be "Why should I be forced to pay for something I won't use when that lazy unemployed guy will get an equal service at no cost to him?" A slightly trickier question, I reckon. But I answer it with "If everyone had SOME access to ACCEPTABLE healthcare, even if I have to pay for it, that might save ME from a pandemic. It might save ME from absurd drug costs in the control of big corporations which have never had to compete on price."
Helping the poor might just keep a bit of civilization together, because the alternative might be ghettos.

Just weigh up the evidence. Real, Today, Here and now evidence.

What you are describing is a disagreement between an ideological extreme, the view that nothing is more upsetting than a poor person seeing a doctor because they don't deserve it (but I'd be overjoyed to pay. $50k a year to keep them in a cage) and pretty much everyone else.

Among the GP there are certainly people who are not thrilled with moochers, but the idea of an undeserving child seeing a doctor doesn't make them so angry that they set aside alll pragmatic consideration.

Others might be hardcore anarchist s or libertarians.

Others are simply misinformed. Our politicians and media spent decades telling tall tales of how you had to wait 20 years to get a broken arm fixed.

Younger people can access facts online. They also correspond with people in other countries and learn the truth that way.

Quote: billryan

I think it's the biggest gift to Democrats since the trumkorph himself.

I see lots of celebrating on the right over this verdict (that most experts think will be easily overturned, sorry Boz).

The GOP just got their asses handed to them in November, in large part because of their attempts to destroy the protections guaranteed by the ACA. Those that survived the slaughter blatantly lied and pretended like they supported the ACA and it’s protections for those with preexisting conditions (I’m lookin at you, Rick Scott).

So this ruling potentially allows the Dems to use the ACA as their main rallying cry again in 2020. Sounds like a plan...

Quote: billryan

It's an interesting argument, but the penalty was reduced to zero, not eliminated. A subtle difference, to you and me but something lawyers will argue over for the next two years. I think it's the biggest gift to Democrats since the trumkorph himself.

No fearmongering required for all the Americans with pre-existing conditions who can rightly start going into full panic mode any minute now.

Quote: rxwine

No fearmongering required for all the Americans with pre-existing conditions who can rightly start going into full panic mode any minute now.

Who'd be stupid enough to have a pre-existing condition? It's not as if they didn't know about it in advance $:o) $:o)

But seriously, the whole pre-existing condition thing is one hot potato. Get that wrong as a party ( or president) and you are screwed.
Lying about the provision will surely only be sustainable short term.

Quote: rxwine

No fearmongering required for all the Americans with pre-existing conditions who can rightly start going into full panic mode any minute now.

The law will stay in effect while the appeals process. I'm one of the tens of hundreds of millions with a pre-existing condition and honestly I'm not very concerned. Who knows, maybe there still exist a dozen Republican Senators who will work with Democrats and create a better system. One can only hope.

Quote: djatc

why can't there be an expected itemized cost per procedure BEFORE getting the treatment, like dentists do? I hate the fact nobody knows how much anything will cost beforehand. Can I have some options as to what to treat or not?

can somebody smart in the medical field like SOOPOO answer this cuz I'm really curious

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: rxwine

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

We have that now, you do not seem to like it. What I do not like is my government telling me, "Here is this great health care system, but since waits are long you can pay extra to get out of it."

And if you think resentment of "the rich" is bad now, just wait! People scream if someone gets to move to the hear of the line at Disney resorts. How will that play? All such a system will do is set up decades more of health care battles.

AZ go to disney and let off some steam

They dont have front of the line tickets for the rich there so you should like it

Everyone gets 3 express tickets per day. You pick the ride and are told what time to return so you go sit on line somewhere else then return during your 1 hr window to shoot ahead of everyone

No special treatment for rich or poor. You will like the socialism of Disney resorts

(I did witness a major celebrity athlete being escorted the back way with his kid but for security purposes I can understand that)

Only other people who get to skip the lines are handicapped but I imagine AZ will be upset that freeloading handicapped people get special treatment when they dont contribute to society?

Quote: Tanko

Quote: petroglyph

I had to have that appt. to get a referral to the Dr. I actually needed to see, a Dr. who could perform a spinal epidural with fluoroscopy [sp]. It took 4 weeks to see that Dr. who set me up for the epidural 2 weeks later. So for a herniated disc, steroid injection, while in a lot of pain, it took ten weeks to get an injection.

To add insult to injury, I think this guy was some kind of sadist, who rather than give the regular epidural, gave 6 facet joint injections, which take a very long needle, as they go in from the side. All without even local anesthetic.

That risky procedure, could have left you paralyzed. My friend had the procedure, and lost the sense of feel in his fingertips.

When I had herniated disks a few years ago, my physician wanted to schedule me for spinal injections and spinal fusion surgery two weeks after my initial visit.

Fortunately I saw this on Dr. Oz, the same day, and opted for chiropractic treatment, which healed my condition within a few weeks.

I don't endure them lightly.

Hence seeking out a physician that uses flouroscopy [ live xray]. I've went a very long way down the chiropractic route first.

I'm putting off a surgery now for Morton's neuroma and sciatica, that has a high possibility of causing loss of sensation on two toes of each foot. Plus the possibility of just not doing any good at all.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: rxwine

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

We have that now, you do not seem to like it. What I do not like is my government telling me, "Here is this great health care system, but since waits are long you can pay extra to get out of it."

And if you think resentment of "the rich" is bad now, just wait! People scream if someone gets to move to the hear of the line at Disney resorts. How will that play? All such a system will do is set up decades more of health care battles.

AZ go to disney and let off some steam

They dont have front of the line tickets for the rich there so you should like it

Everyone gets 3 express tickets per day. You pick the ride and are told what time to return so you go sit on line somewhere else then return during your 1 hr window to shoot ahead of everyone

No special treatment for rich or poor. You will like the socialism of Disney resorts

(I did witness a major celebrity athlete being escorted the back way with his kid but for security purposes I can understand that)

Only other people who get to skip the lines are handicapped but I imagine AZ will be upset that freeloading handicapped people get special treatment when they dont contribute to society?

Disney absolutely has a service that takes rich people to the front of the line. Not only that but you get a private van that moves on the emergency roads off limits to the public. You also can orders drinks and a.server meets you at the ride of your choice. It's about a $1,000 a day plus ticket cost.
Well worth it for a large group. You can easily do two parks in a single day.

Quote: darkoz

AZ go to disney and let off some steam

They dont have front of the line tickets for the rich there so you should like it

Everyone gets 3 express tickets per day. You pick the ride and are told what time to return so you go sit on line somewhere else then return during your 1 hr window to shoot ahead of everyone

No special treatment for rich or poor. You will like the socialism of Disney resorts

(I did witness a major celebrity athlete being escorted the back way with his kid but for security purposes I can understand that)

Only other people who get to skip the lines are handicapped but I imagine AZ will be upset that freeloading handicapped people get special treatment when they dont contribute to society?

I’m not particularly proud of this, but I went to Disney with my sister, who is a complete wack job despite being a fully grown adult with a PhD.

She went to customer service and showed them a Xanax and said she gets panic attacks in long lines. We got a pass for our entire family to skip the line on every single ride for our entire trip.

I think they only do it for physical disabilities now. Probably because of my sister.

Some disabled vets had a small cottage industry, hiring out to tourists. Groups with someone in a wheelchair get priority. This evidently upset other people not smart enough to do it themselves. Now those vets are unemployed.

Quote: OnceDear

Serious question...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Republican party generally in favor of socialised medical treatment, but that they dug their heels in in the opposite direction as a way of taking Obama down. Didn't that force upon ObamaCare the sort of compromises that rendered it weaker than it needed to be.

I CAN understand how your society would be against the imposition of a new 'tax' or system that forced you to pay for such a socialist concept. Land of the free and all that.
My counterpoint is that with majority support, you could make something like it not only work, but actually cost in.
It's just about the very concept of insurance: It needs some to contribute more than they use because some will be randomly unlucky enough to use more than they can contribute.

There will always be piss takers and parasites, just as there will always be parasitic lobbyists. Both are a problem.

Some republicans were in favor of such a system, but I do not think it was ever officially part of their supported positions.

Mitt Romney, then republican governor of Massachusetts, put in at the state level a very obama-care like system. When Democrats were working on the ACA, the republicans did everything they could to pretend it never happened.

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: rxwine

Yup, I've suggested exactly that to people like you who keep saying you will wait months for care if it were socialized. Why shouldn't you get more if you can pay more? Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like anything that might actually work.

Only exceptions are the same as we already make here. You can'tmove ahead of emergent situations regardless of ability to pay.

We have that now, you do not seem to like it. What I do not like is my government telling me, "Here is this great health care system, but since waits are long you can pay extra to get out of it."

And if you think resentment of "the rich" is bad now, just wait! People scream if someone gets to move to the hear of the line at Disney resorts. How will that play? All such a system will do is set up decades more of health care battles.

AZ go to disney and let off some steam

They dont have front of the line tickets for the rich there so you should like it

Everyone gets 3 express tickets per day. You pick the ride and are told what time to return so you go sit on line somewhere else then return during your 1 hr window to shoot ahead of everyone

No special treatment for rich or poor. You will like the socialism of Disney resorts

(I did witness a major celebrity athlete being escorted the back way with his kid but for security purposes I can understand that)

Only other people who get to skip the lines are handicapped but I imagine AZ will be upset that freeloading handicapped people get special treatment when they dont contribute to society?

Disney absolutely has a service that takes rich people to the front of the line. Not only that but you get a private van that moves on the emergency roads off limits to the public. You also can orders drinks and a.server meets you at the ride of your choice. It's about a $1,000 a day plus ticket cost.
Well worth it for a large group. You can easily do two parks in a single day.

Ah yes. You are talking about the tour ticket prices which are very expensive

Thats not an add-on like at most parks but just a ticket option

Yes I guess you are correct on that respect however everyone still gets front of the line access as well. Its just not as extensive as the tour option

There is an episode of Blackish where they purchase that ticket option. Its quite hilarious

The option is actually very good if you have a group of eight to ten. You only need a one day pass, not two ,which saves eight to ten admissions, and eliminates the need to stay multiple nights at their overpriced hotels.
I thought it was nuts at first, but when you break down the numbers it works very well. It comes down to do you want to schelp around Disney for two or three days or be treated like Royalty for a day.
Now if you are two or four people, it is very expensive. Eight to ten it's not.