Can we please have, dare i say, a "fantasy" board to discuss "rigged" games?

Quote: heatmap

wtf?

anyways

im most certain you have - but have you ever actually tried to complain to a gaming control board - or "express yourself" to one? have you ever gone and said the things i have said to one?

i have.

there is nothing. not a single way to actually CHALLENGE what you think may be going on. and when you do you will be met with the fact that its all tested by someone somehow. and that no matter what it wouldnt be in the casino if it was not considered to be fair or whatever it is called.

do you think the people interfacing with me have ANY clue of the internal workings of the machines they are telling me dont do what I say they are doing? No they have no clue. One of us is either correct or incorrect.

i simply hate it when someone comes on here and says its not possible and acts as if its not real. and have no clue what you are talking about. The only reason you are correct as of this point is because i have no proof the things i say are IN CASINOS. so you have me there.

RRS is in casinos thats the truth. and if roulette wheels were as random as they say they are then they wouldnt need it. yet everyone willfully ignores its existence and will constantly say that roulette is the most random game in the world

Having worked in Gaming Compliance I do believe the Gaming Control Board in Nevada will take you seriously if you provide statistical evidence of anomalies with your complaint.

Quote: DRich

Having worked in Gaming Compliance I do believe the Gaming Control Board in Nevada will take you seriously if you provide statistical evidence of anomalies with your complaint.

how much of my life would i have to give recording results for one game to make them KNOW there is something going on. i know thats not worth it. and they know that too.

my question to you is - is there an external process for result verification outside of the normal avenues such as GLI or the other one you mentioned i cant think of the name i think its BMI

4th party testing just in case your 3rd party is wrong(tm)

Quote: heatmap

how much of my life would i have to give recording results for one game to make them KNOW there is something going on. i know thats not worth it. and they know that too.

my question to you is - is there an external process for result verification outside of the normal avenues such as GLI or the other one you mentioned i cant think of the name i think its BMI

4th party testing just in case your 3rd party is wrong(tm)

Obviously I can't give a number but if you had an expert in statistics agree that the numbers are outside of "x" standard deviations I think they would take it seriously. If you can't prove that it is outside of "x" standard deviations there is no reason for you to believe it is compromised.

Quote: AxelWolf

You come across what you are fairly certain is a rigged game in a casino, what would you do?
A)Keep playing it over and over while losing money.
B) figure out how to exploit it and win money.
C) Just walk away and find something else to play.
D) Come talk about it on a forum void of any actual evidence.
E) Report it to the gaming board in your jurisdiction.
F)Keep playing it over and over while losing money and then come talk about it on the forums void of any actual evidence, rinse repeat.

I am going to answer because I feel this is at least partly directed at me. (yes, I know...maybe I am being overly sensitive). So I encountered the situation twice at two different locations within my regular rotation, several years apart. (1) will be the first encounter and (2) the second that I think you and others may be familiar with as the discussion was brought here.

A: (1) Once I was convinced, I stopped playing. On the final day, I made a comment to the pit person and his reaction, FOR ME, confirmed my suspicions. I then stopped playing that location for good. (2) This one is a little difficult, There were two tables in the regular pit that I played VERY regularly for a decade at nice results. One day the pits were rearranged a bit and in addition to my regular two tables, two new tables with newer model ATM's showed up. It is at these newer tables only that I started to experience what I considered very odd results. At that point I stopped playing the game, BUT continued tracking it for weeks without playing. I did this because I wanted to be absolutely sure myself and frankly I was concerned that I had now seen a second incident and was concerned it was and would continue to spread.

B: I am not smart enough to figure out how to exploit it myself, although in the second case (2), after it was explained to my by other members of the community, I have since been able to exploit it at 2 additional locations for short times.

C: I think I answered this in part A. (1) I walked away. (2) I wanted to prove it to myself AND there were still 2 tables at this casino which was in my regular rotation that I remained comfortable playing.

D: (1) I walked away. removed the location from my regular casinos and did not initially mention it on forums. Later when the topic of cheating came up, I shared the experience without mentioning the casino by name. (2). As I said in part A, I continued to track this game for weeks while not playing it. I accumulated over 200 shoes (it was a double deck game dealt from a shoe) worth of evidence. I was looking for usual card clumping, true counts of either +4 or -4. Between the 200 shoes tracked, one of those pretty extreme counts was reached 94% of the time, IIRC. I took that info to blackjack math expert Don Schlesinger, who confirmed this a pretty unusual anomaly.

At this point I shared the experience with a blackjack related forum as a warning, and the discussion was then brought here, where I was not an active member. My intent on bringing it to the forums was ONLY to warn other players, AP's and non-AP's that might play this game. It never occurred to me that a few AP's smarter than me had also figured this out and were exploiting it. I plead 'stupid' on that and throw myself at the mercy of the court and those fellow AP's.

E: (2) Upon my going public, there was some discussion of a formal complaint to gaming. As an active player in this town, hoping for years to come, I was not going to be the face of that complaint. Someone (a forum administrator on a forum owned by this same company) suggested Mike Shackleford to be the face of the complaint. Mike and I were not on speaking terms at that time, and by the time someone conveyed the thought to him several weeks later, the issue had been resolved when casino #2 abruptly removed the two tables and ATM's in question (never to be seen again)

F: This seems to be a rehash question. I think I have answered.

oh man that last poster makes me actually uncomfortable and i hang out with a guy who murdered someone a long time ago that occasionally does meth

Quote: heatmap

oh man that last poster makes me actually uncomfortable and i hang out with a guy who murdered someone a long time ago that occasionally does meth

It’s Boz.

Quote: unJon

It’s Boz.

It's sad.

Quote: CamsAngels

I am disappointed tis video didn't draw more discussion. And yes, I know there is limited blackjack interest on this particular forum, but for a while now, whenever myself or anyone else even mentions the possibility of shuffle machine cheating, people seem to come out of the woodwork saying that is not possible, machines don't have that capability and it isn't occurring.

Well it IS possible! And I have seen it occur, at two different locations over the past few years. I am not saying it is wide spread, but it is possible and it will occur more and more. If the technology is there, it will occur.

Again, the whole video is interesting IMO, but for those who don't want to invest 13 minutes, skip to the blackjack part at 9:55 in.

Quote: kewlj

Quote: CamsAngels

I am disappointed tis video didn't draw more discussion. And yes, I know there is limited blackjack interest on this particular forum, but for a while now, whenever myself or anyone else even mentions the possibility of shuffle machine cheating, people seem to come out of the woodwork saying that is not possible, machines don't have that capability and it isn't occurring.

Well it IS possible! And I have seen it occur, at two different locations over the past few years. I am not saying it is wide spread, but it is possible and it will occur more and more. If the technology is there, it will occur.

Again, the whole video is interesting IMO, but for those who don't want to invest 13 minutes, skip to the blackjack part at 9:55 in.

For the record, I absolutely believe some shufflers have the ability to cheat. I believe that it has happened and will happen in the future. What I don't believe is that it's rampant. I have a feeling it's very rare. I absolutely don't believe the bubble craps is cheating.

I will tell you that I have personally witnessed several state gaming officials entering our properties unannounced, being escorted by our security to certain tables and removing shoes right after the shuffle, either from a shuffler or the rare manual shuffle, bagged, Ziplocked, tagged and photographed. Same with dice, roulette balls and other items.

Also witnessed officials testing slots and video machines.

I have to agree with the previous comments referring to sending viable evidence to the state gaming officials for action.

Quote: kewlj

It never occurred to me that a few AP's smarter than me had also figured this out and were exploiting it. I plead 'stupid' on that and throw myself at the mercy of the court and those fellow AP's.

i came out a loser eventually that day but - the one of the first times i knew that i had found the exploit was when a dealer stopped my game and whispered to their pit manager that i knew what cards were coming out right in front of me - he told her to continue dealing the cards.

Quote: AxelWolf

For the record, I absolutely believe some shufflers have the ability to cheat. I believe that it has happened and will happen in the future. What I don't believe is that it's rampant. I have a feeling it's very rare. I absolutely don't believe the bubble craps is cheating.

I also don't believe it is common. I have encountered it twice and I am a grinder type player playing many casinos and hours. More than most professional blackjack players who play higher stakes. AND both incidents were at small independently owned casinos. One was later purchased by one of the chains, but was independent at the time.

But while not common I think players should be on the lookout for it. Hey I jumped the gun last summer, thinking some really bad variance was a third case and was wrong. Nothing wrong with that. Glad I was wrong.