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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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OnceDear
March 12th, 2018 at 12:12:41 AM permalink
I've been asked by several people to weigh in on the SAP/WoN situation. Never one to do the smart thing and keep my mouth shut, I do have some thoughts on the subject. Chances are I'll end up satisfying no one, because I'm not wholly in agreement with anyone so far.

First, I'm starting a new thread in order to put all the eggs in one basket. Because, yes, if this forum is to have any integrity and continuity, we have to allow this discussion. I'm not sure we've had any more complicated issue come before us, certainly not in my time here.

I ask those who've weighed in on the Miscellaneous Discussion thread to bring their posts here they want retained. Once that is done, I will remove them from that huge, unsplittable thread. I do not want to censor this conversation. However, it will be strictly moderated for doxxing, which we also do not allow.

I think Mission was correct in his intent and focus on stopping the doxxing. This is not the purpose of WoV. Wizard made comments previously about not allowing this site to host such practices. His intent appears to focus primarily on the good of the forum and the members, not protect SAP. There are possibly some apologies owed him for aspersions about his reasons for the deletions.

I do not think the thread should have been deleted. I think identifying information should have been redacted and the link removed. Not to suppress the information on that website, but because the publisher unwisely (for our purpose of discussion) used SAP's full name as the link.

Further, the website lists his wife, and provides a picture of her. Yet none of the complaints seem to include her. Very unfair to her.

Some moderating facts. SAP was banned from this site years ago, though he continues to create sock puppets. Therefore many of the protections given members in our rules no longer apply to him. But there have been precedents set for not doxxing former members as well, (LarryS, KewlJ, a couple others come to mind) and so consistency in this would be in the best interests of the forum, its members, and incidentally, SAP.

However, and this is where I may part ways with many of you, this forum collectively has a duty to warn. If members have allegations, factual issues or information, past bad experiences with SAP, whether they met him through this board or not, they have a right to be heard as well.

The Wizard built his career on educating gamblers and forcing casinos to be honest about the odds on the games they were offering, their true take, how random the mechanics are, and other issues, like transparency and responsibility.

The community here largely holds itself to a similar standard, and has had little tolerance or patience for scammers, system sellers, con men, welchers, or thievery. That website accuses SAP of many of these type things, and seems to have at least some facts to back up those accusations. Other members have personal experiences that echo some of those accusations. And those recollections go back at least several years.

I think it's time to end the vague innuendos and allow the exchange of information. I'm not interested in stories told on other forums, or something people heard from someone else. But, just like this forum has specifically identified rogue casinos and shoddy practices, it should allow for identification of gamblers who befriend and then scam its members.

Ultimately, it will be up to the Wizard whether this thread continues. If it does, I will not allow SAP's legal name, address, or other identifying text to remain if posted. He can be referred to by any of his past forum names, of which there are about a dozen I know of. If his picture is posted, I'm not sure I can stop it, as the precedent was set (at my expense) that a person's picture can be posted by another member without their permission or agreement, and demands to take it down will be ignored. However, I will have ZERO tolerance for any photo or identifying info about his wife or other non-combatants.

The website does not contain copyright protection. So I don't believe RS is in violation of any rules, at least not their intent to protect fair use, by posting his redacted version of that narrative. Same for the car forum link from Max Pen; SAP is not identified by one particular name there. This forum also used to think nothing should be deleted for 1st Amendment reasons, but also because people.should stand by what they say, so I am not removing any of it, even.the f-bomb.

But the real challenge is to those, if any, members who have first hand experience with SAP. Facts are important. Slurs are unnecessary. Keep in mind the truism.that you can't con an honest man when considering your own part in whatever happened. But people need to understand how to avoid being vulnerable. Chances are some good object lessons could be taught if people discuss these situations openly and objectively.

I'm exhausted, and it's 3am. Going to stop talking. But I encourage you to start. If SAP has to reap.what he sowed, so be it. If there are those who have positive first-hand stories, let's hear them.

But no personal information on SAP, please.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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March 12th, 2018 at 12:18:18 AM permalink
The FF had stuff like this in mind when they created the second amendment.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
Mission146
Mission146 
Joined: May 15, 2012
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March 12th, 2018 at 12:29:18 AM permalink
I'm going to ask that my post explaining why I deleted those threads remain in the Miscellaneous Discussion Thread because that is the post that I linked Wizard to.

That post said:

Quote:

RE: DELETED THREAD

With respect to the deleted threads that people are discussing, I will say the following:

1.) I have not had the opportunity to discuss the nature of that thread or the website it links to with Wizard yet, so given that the thread did not take very long to create and can easily be reposted, I intend to share the site in question with Wizard and determine whether or not the thread should be allowed.

2.) In the meantime, I am erring on the side of caution, not out of protecting any one person, but the fact that I would delete a thread linking to a site about any current or previous member in that regard.

3.) Specifically, I believe that the thread violates the following Rules, which will be quoted in italics, with explanations appearing below:

Respect privacy. Do not post any information about someone else that is intended to be private or quote from private communication.

---This one is fairly obvious as the thread in question contains a link to the personal information of a previous member that, I would assume, the previous member in question would not want shared.

---MORE IMPORTANTLY the thread in question contains a link to a website that contains the personal information of someone known to the previous member, specifically a relative, who does not appear to be accused by anyone of ever doing anything himself or herself. I can definitely say that I will not allow that thread linking to that website to stand to such extent that it mentions the personal information of anyone other than the previous member in question.

Keep it legal: Don't post anything that would violate the laws of Nevada or the United States. For example, anything libelous, or promoting anything obviously illegal.

---In the first deleted thread, there was some question as to whether or not the name of the website linked is even legal. While I'm not a lawyer, preliminary research leads me to the conclusion that the name of the website is NOT legal. Therefore, leaving a link to the website up (which may be illegal in and of itself) would also theoretically fall under promoting illegal activity.

---Secondly, some aspects of the linked website may constitute libel. I have no intention of making a final decision on that.

No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member. This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. (Added 2/24/2012). This also includes threats against another member. (added 9/3/12)

---In the past, we have deleted and/or locked threads created specifically for the purpose of attacking members both current and past. In this case, whether or not the accusations are true, there can be no question that the purpose of the thread is to attack that person.

4.) While I await the opportunity to discuss the matter with Wizard, the person who created the thread in the first place has been asked not to re-create the thread again. The person who created the thread has not and will not be banned for the thread's original creation whether we decide to allow the thread or not.

Anyway, that's all. The simple answer is that I am erring on the side of caution until I have an opportunity to fully discuss the matter with Wizard. As such, my decision is not final, but this is one instance where it seems better to err on the side of caution until he either approves or does not approve the existence of that thread. If he determines that the thread does not violate any rules, then I will PM the member who create the thread as soon as practicable and inform him or her that the thread may be created again.

Thank you and I have nothing else to say on this matter for the time being. I will be along to update whether or not we will allow the thread.

Vultures can't be choosers.
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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MaxPenBoz
March 12th, 2018 at 12:30:11 AM permalink
For those unsure of what's being discussed, here's the website, with redactions (protecting the personal information of con artists is important) --

Quote:

ABOUT JeffWarren75
HOW HE SCAMS
JeffWarren75
SCAMMING IN CASINOS: PENNSYLVANIA -- LAS VEGAS -- FLORIDA · CONVICTED FELON, FRAUDSTER, SCAMMER
JeffWarren75 is a convicted felon, fraudster, con artist and scammer with a gambling problem. He has conned dozens of people out of their money by earning their trust and pretending to be knowledgeable and wealthy. He is known to scam in casinos and the car industry. He has taken hundreds of thousands of dollars from individuals just so he can satisfy his gambling fix. He is mentally unstable and dangerous. Do not trust him.


If you know JeffWarren75 or have had an incident with him-- contact [redacted, email address]

HOW HE SCAMS
WHO HE IS
PROFESSIONAL CON ARTIST AND SCAMMER
JeffWarren75 is a known and documented con artist with a lengthy criminal history and many victims in his past. He should be AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS. He is known to frequent the Las Vegas, Pennsylvania, Atlantic City, Hollywood, Florida areas although he is known to travel and will go anywhere to find willing participants in his scams. He also has ties to Philadelphia and the east coast although he has been criminally barred in all PA casinos, and trespassed in Atlantic City. JeffWarren75 currently has a lien judgement from the IRS and multiple government agencies are seeking him out. His criminal record includes multiple felony convictions for theft by deception, larceny, forgery, and making false statements, among others.

JeffWarren75 uses multiple names and pretends to have a lot of people working for him/under him. He goes around showing you how to beat the casino, and then later tries to embezzle your money-- by asking for loans (with no intention to pay back), offering to pick up your free play (with the intention to steal and embezzle these funds), or offering you to buy pieces of his “employees” (which are non-existent) that are on a +EV play (which doesn’t exist).

JeffWarren75’s only means of existence is to defraud others. He has done this through varying industries, from casino consulting to car shipping to financial consulting. He has stolen millions from victims and is a well-versed and confident con man that has shown the ability to talk his way into almost anything. Mr. JeffWarren75 has shown himself to be incredibly smart and insidious in his ability to “sweet talk” others, helping him perpetrate and get away with fraud by first helping instill trust in his victims. It is IMPORTANT to note that he will pose as a wealthy, successful, kind, and generous person to lure you in. He knows how to manipulate his own personality to get others to trust him. He will say and do anything to eventually defraud you. He only exists to defraud others, and we recommend you avoid any interaction with him and report him to local authorities. It is believed he has a warrant out for his arrest and he should be reported to local authorities if u know him. Everything he says is a lie. He also tries to appear more powerful than he is, claiming he has people that work for him, claiming he is friends with credible people, that is he is a lawyer, worked for morgan stanley... etc...All of those are lies he tells in order to gain your trust and make him appear sharper than he is.


HOW HE SCAMS
CASINOS
JeffWarren75 has scammed dozens of people for large amounts of money, totaling over 1 million dollars. He has actively pursued people to work with him and for him and then later embezzles your money. He has stolen free play in casinos, taken out loans in other people's names, made charges under other people's accounts and even defrauded multiple people out of vehicles. He is banned from Casinos in Atlantic City, Pennsylvania, Las Vegas, Florida. His criminal history goes back 15 years. His date of birth is [redacted, redacted DOB], age [redacted, age]. Last known addresses:

[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
...He is [redacted, height] He is currently Married to [redacted]. He was also locked up for domestic abuse.

OTHER INFORMATION
Online JeffWarren75 is also known to frequent online forums such as gamblingforums.com and wizardofvegas.com... on those websites his alias is the "wizardofnothing", "Jeffwarren75", and "strictlyAP". he has been banned from these sites as a result of not paying up on bets and scamming people from these forums.

Bob Dancer Article Pt1
Bob Dancer Article Pt2
Where he talks about JeffWarren75 being a con artist
Podcast where JeffWarren75 is mentioned
How He Scammed someone out of a Porsche
His Online Profile at wizardofvegas (1)
His Online Profile at wizardofvegas (2)
His Online Profile at wizardofvegas (3)
Past court documents
Past court documents
Bob Dancer Articles from 2013: July 30 Don't Trust JeffWarren75 --- Part 1 of 2 This two-part story has a dual purpose: First I want to publish information about JeffWarren75, a man who has ripped me off. I'll tell you how he did it. I'm doing this in hopes that, should you have any contact with him, you will avoid trusting him. So that you will know what he looks like, I have included two mug shots from previous arrests in Florida in 2011 and 2012. At least one of the arrests was on drug charges (meth). I'm not sure what the other charge was. Had I known of these arrests, I would not have done business with him.

Second, I want to tell you about an unusual promotion and how I went about attacking it in June of this year. I "met" JeffWarren75 over the Internet when he wrote to me concerning the Gambling with an Edge radio show. Through his emails, he was able to convince me that he was a very strong advantage player. Although video poker wasn't his particular specialty, he told me that he occasionally discovers a good promotion that might make it worthwhile for me to fly back east. JeffWarren75 told me about an eight-hour promotion at the Parx casino in Bensalem, PA near Philadelphia, which would take place on Saturday, June 8, 2013 from 4 p.m. to midnight. The promotion was strong enough that I eventually chose to get on an airplane in Las Vegas and fly to Philadelphia. In some ways the promotion turned out to be less than advertised--in some ways more. The wording on the promotion was a bit vague, but here's the gist of it: If you're playing on a machine which has $1 as the lowest denomination, any W2G totaling $2,500 or higher gets a $500 free play bonus. If you're playing on a machine which has $5 or $10 as the lowest denomination on it, any W2G totaling $5,000 or more gets a $1,000 free play bonus. (They also offered bonuses for jackpots at lower denominations, but I wasn't interested in getting on a plane for five hours to play for quarters). The things I wanted to know up front were: Which games are available and at what denominations? What sort of cash back do they have? Can I get airfare reimbursed? Do they have any new member promotion? What size mailers would I likely receive? The no-risk game to play on this promotion was video roulette. They had stand lots of standalone machines where you could bet on every number. Betting $70 on each number, for a total of $2,660, you'd get back exactly $2,520 plus receive $500 in free play every time you played. The problem is that this has no variance at all and the casino likely wouldn't tolerate it for long. After flying across the country, I didn't want to be booted immediately after starting to play. (As it turned out, players WERE removed from the casino for doing this. But they were allowed to keep their winnings --- so it was a profitable play for them. I don't know if they were removed from the casino "forever" or just for the duration of the promotion.)

Apparently, the best percentage game available is a $10 9/6 Double Double Bonus single-play machine where $5 is the lowest denomination. This game would return 99.78 during the promotion. For this denomination, I would get the $1,000 bonus for a royal, any aces, and 2s, 3s, or 4s with a kicker. JeffWarren75 thought he might be able to get the denomination bumped up to $25, which would increase the return close to 101 because all quads would then return at last $6,250 and every one of them would receive the $500 bonus. JeffWarren75 told me that they have a 0.33 slot club and a new member promotion that yields $1,000 if you play at least $120,000 coin-in on your first day. He thought the mailers might end up being well over 0.50 if I could play double that amount. On a $10 single line machine, how much coin-in I could get would depend on how fast they paid off jackpots and how many adjacent machines I would have available. In eight hours, I calculated that I should get 10-12 W2Gs (with fewer than half eligible for the bonus) if I could move over to another machine while waiting to be paid. I could play at least $240,000 through the machines in eight hours under these conditions. If I only had one machine and it took 20 minutes to pay me, I might not even meet the $120,000 threshold for my $1,000 first-day promo. When I arrived in Philadelphia on Friday evening, I went directly to the casino. I wanted to see the games for myself. They did indeed have five of the $10 9/6 DDB machines. On the opposite side of the same bank were five All Star Poker machines, with the lowest denomination starting at $1. All Star Poker is a box with a variety of games on it—the exact mix depending on the casino's preference. But Triple Play, Five Play, Ten Play, Five Aces Poker, Trade Up Poker, Spin Poker and a couple of others were on this box --- in different denominations that varied from game to game.

A $10 game (other than Jacks or Better) on this box is very appealing because most quads and straight flushes pay 250 coins --- which is exactly $2,500. That way you earn the $500 free play bonus most efficiently. 9/6 DDB (which normally returns 98.98) returns a tasty 101.51% under this promotion --- but that game wasn't to be found. 9/5 DDB returned a mere 100.40 --- but that game wasn't to be found either for $10 denominations. The only game that was remotely interesting was 8/5 DDB Five Aces poker, which was available in $10 Triple Play. I had never played this game and didn't know the percentage returns of the various pay schedules. But I wrote it down and planned to look it up when I got to my hotel room. It turns out the game returns an anemic 97.64 under regular conditions but a robust 100.77 under this promotion. Regular DDB has a variance of 42 --- which is very scary to some people. This game during the promotion had a variance of 112, which can be downright frightening. I had brought "only" $40,000 with me as I was planning on playing $10 single line for eight hours. For the game that I originally planned on playing, I figured that I had plenty of cash. But for playing Triple Play in the same denomination in a game with almost triple the variance, I was short stacked. I realized that I could lose the $40K in about two hours if things went badly. That would be annoying but hardly disastrous. (I clearly was there to win and didn't want to lose at all. But I was willing to lose the entire $40,000 --- and more if I could borrow from JeffWarren75. If I hadn't been willing to lose that much, I wouldn't have toted the cash across the country.) With the expected mailers and other promotions going on, the EV for this play was in excess of $1,000 per hour --- for the eight hours of the promotion. I got the percentage return numbers as well as the strategy from The Wizard of Odds Video Poker Strategy Calculator, a valuable free resource. I'm not crazy about the format used in this calculator, but beggars can't be choosers, so I spent about three hours reformatting the strategy to my own taste and then practicing it as well. Three hours was a long time, but I started at about 2 a.m. and didn't have to play until 4 p.m. There was plenty of time for study, sleep, eating, and exercise before I had to be at the casino.) I emailed two strategies to JeffWarren75 and had him get them printed for me. The reason I created two strategies because the rules didn't make it crystal clear whether this game received the $500 bonus for every $2,500-or-higher jackpot or $1,000 for every $5,000-or-higher jackpot (although I was hoping for the latter). It was a juicy play either way, but the strategy was different depending on which rules were in effect. For example, from 4h 5h Ks Qs 9c, you hold '45' when you're getting the $1,000 bonus and 'KQ' when you're getting the $500 bonus. Five Aces poker is a 53-cards-to-the-deck game where the extra card is an ace of stars. It counts for straights, as an ace, and as a kicker for four 2s, 3s, and 4s, but it cannot be used for any flush, straight flush, or royal flush. One of the tricky things about Five Aces Poker is that you get your money back for a pair of aces, but not for a pair of Kings, Queens, or Jacks. So a pair of Kings, Queens, or Jacks is worth the same as a pair of sevens, eights, or nines --- and less than a pair of twos, threes, or fours. This also means that a suited ace-King is worth no more or less than a suited ace-ten (You hold the ace by itself in both instances), and you need to make weird plays such as going for the straight from unsuited KKQJT. You don't hold an unsuited KQJ in this game, but you do hold unsuited QJT and 345, in addition to a suited 34. Go figure. The frequency of the good hands is different in this game than in regular Double Double Bonus. I assume most of my readers are somewhat familiar with DDB (although perhaps most haven't played it at the $10 denomination), so the following table compares "regular" $10 9/6 DDB with $10 8/5 DDB Five Aces during the promo.

Four aces, with and without a kicker, occur a LOT more frequently when you have five aces in the deck rather than four. If I could average 400 deals per hour (which could be too optimistic depending on how fast the W2Gs were paid) --- that would be 1,200 total hands per hour times eight hours --- meaning almost 10,000 hands during the promotion. Three sets of aces with a kicker and 7 or 8 sets of regular aces would be "about right" for the eight hours of the promotion. But being high or low one $20,000 jackpot or even a couple of $8,000 hits makes a big difference when you only start with $40,000 in your pocket. Had I known what game I was getting into, I would have arranged for some combination of cash/line-of-credit for $150,000 or so. But it was too late to worry about that. I only had $40,000 and the clock was ticking. Did I mention the game has a high variance? In the first hour I was down $35,000 before hitting several quick jackpots within fifteen minutes. That put me up a bit, but then I started to lose again. I'll tell you more about the playing session next week. And how JeffWarren75 stole money from me.

July 30 Don't Trust JeffWarren75 --- Part 2 of 2 This is the second part of a two-part story. If you missed last week's column, I recommend you start there. It's available a few clicks away. I don't mind waiting for you. There were a total of five suitable machines for this game. They were sort of in the back corner of the high limit room --- but not quite. For the first couple of hours, I was the only guy playing --- although the high limit room soon became crowded as my jackpots began attracting a crowd. I played about seven hours before the smoke finally drove me to leave. I ended up with 23 taxable jackpots over the seven hours and all but two of them qualified for the $500 bonus. On two occasions, I was dealt a full house for $1,200 which was big enough for a W2G but not big enough for the $500 bonus. I played on the machine at the far right end. I played my machine with my right hand and fed $100 bills into the adjacent machine with my left hand so that I would have a large ticket ready to insert into the machine I was playing when needed. I had converted my original $40K bankroll into tickets prior to the start of the promotion, but I had to continue creating additional tickets (usually in $2500 amounts) from my jackpot cash as I played. Since the bill acceptor on most machines is on the upper right, it's a comfortable reach if you're playing immediately adjacent to that machine on the right side. Reaching the other way is a stretch. Whenever I hit a jackpot, I'd move over to the adjacent machine and continue playing. If I had cash, I'd use the third machine from the right to create tickets. This behavior looked strange to many of the "lookie-loos," and, since I kept hitting jackpots, several of them commented on how much I was winning. Nobody ever played this game (And why would they? It normally returned less than 98 with hellacious swings) and if they ever did stumble onto it, they would leave shortly. Little did they know that I needed more than $20,000 in jackpots every hour just to tread water. I was a little concerned about security. Fortunately, there were enough cameras in the area that as long as I was in the high limit room, I figured I was safe. But LOTS of people saw me get paid tens of thousands of dollars. I couldn't know if one of them might be tempted to jump me after I left the casino, but since I was with JeffWarren75 and he parked in valet parking, I figured I'd most likely be able to get out of there intact. It never occurred to me that I'd be ripped off by JeffWarren75 afterwards. Even though I won, the casino ended up making money because of me. A man who I'll call "Paul" had taken a class from me years ago at the Borgata. He politely asked if I was indeed Bob Dancer. I told him "Yes," but I asked that he not publicize my presence as I was trying to keep that from the casino. (I never get players' cards in the name of Bob Dancer because that's not the name on my driver's license). He noticed the game that I was playing and must have concluded that if Five Aces was a good enough game for Bob Dancer, it was a good enough game for him. The problem is that Five Aces requires a VERY different strategy from other games. For example, if you have a suited K952 along with another King, in this game you go for the 4-card flush. In every other variation of Double Double Bonus, you hold the Kings. Paul was using a strategy that probably gave up 2 to the house. This is a game with huge swings, even if you know what you're doing. If you don't know how to play, you can lose a ton quickly. He might have brought $20,000 thinking that he was going to be playing $10 single-line Double Double Bonus --- and he probably lost all of it. I felt sorry for him, feeling that he may have switched games because of what I was doing, but that was not my concern. I can't save other people from themselves. I figured the game was worth $1,000 per hour to me and I was much too busy to worry about his bankroll. At about 11 p.m., I called it quits. It was smoky and I was tired. My score didn't have anything to do with it. I thought I was up a little bit, but I wasn't sure. I had unused $2,500 tickets in a couple of different pockets and didn't take time to count them in front of prying eyes --- including the eye in the sky. I certainly had enough cash on hand to last another hour but I was finished with this promotion. We cashed out and went to JeffWarren75's hotel room and counted out the accumulated cash. (It wasn't hard. Most of the money was in $5,000 "straps." In round numbers, I was ahead $5,000 which I kept after we had recorded the results. There would also be cash back and mailers. The plan was that JeffWarren75 would pick up the cash back, keep his share, and mail me the rest. So far, so good. Dealing with JeffWarren75 was looking like a profitable arrangement. When I got back to my room I found another $2,500 ticket. This was partnership money, so I immediately called JeffWarren75 and told him. We decided he would give me $2,200 cash in the morning for it (his agreed-upon share was about 12) and he'd cash the ticket next time he went to Parx. We'd continue to use the $5,000 figure as the basis of deciding how to split the cash back and mailer money. He picked me up in the morning and suggested we go to Sugar House --- another casino in the area with a sign up bonus. (I lost there.) At the airport, I reminded JeffWarren75 that he was to give me $2,200 for the Parx ticket. He didn't have any cash on him (he said) and told me he'd mail me the money. The casino was too far away to go there now without missing my flight. It would have only been a slight detour to have gone to the Parx from my hotel room, but from the airport it was a substantial distance. Since that day, I've received a grand total of $175 from JeffWarren75, the first of many weekly payments I was supposed to receive from him. I have, however, gotten a number of emails and texts promising to send me money. He even sent two different bogus Western Union tracking numbers. Needless to say, I'm very unhappy with being ripped off. The $2,200 is one thing. The normal Parx mailer money for the amount I played should have been between $6,000 and $8,000. I'm missing out on that too. That's the real reason I went to play there. I finally called up the Parx and told them to freeze my account. I'm going to miss out on the mailer money --- and he will too. I debated whether I should "out" JeffWarren75 to the casino. I get accused of identifying advantage players --- although that has never happened. I decided to tell the Parx management exactly what JeffWarren75 did --- especially since I was planning on publishing the story. He wasn't acting as an advantage player. He was acting as a thief. And he deserves to get busted. I know of two other people who JeffWarren75 has ripped off. He collected Atlantic City casino money for them and then skipped with it. At least one of them is talking about going to the police. The other is talking about calling JeffWarren75's probation officer in Florida and telling him what a "prince" JeffWarren75 is. We'll see. JeffWarren75 claims to have a famous, wealthy father, [redacted], and he throws that "information" around loosely. I now doubt there is any relationship between them. JeffWarren75 lied about so many other things that he probably lied about that too. One of the essential parts of winning gambling is getting paid when you win. If you do have a partner, you need to be able to trust that he won't rip you off. Obviously I misjudged JeffWarren75. This guy talks a good game, but he's bad news. Avoid him if you can.

It's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake. If the way is hazy. You gotta do the cookin' by the book. You know you can't be lazy. Never use a messy recipe. The cake will end up crazy. If you do the cookin' by the book. Then you'll have a... Break it down! Lemme see you bake it up! Drop that down low and pick that up. Break it down! Lemme see you bake it up! Drop that down low and pick that up Now back that Hey! Now back that. Hey! Now bake that. Hey! Now bake that. Hey! It's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake (WHAT!) If the way is hazy (OKAY!) You gotta do the cookin' by the book, (WHAT!) You know you can't be lazy (YEAH!) Never use a messy recipe, (WHAT!) The cake will end up crazy (OKAY!) If you do the cookin' by the book, (YEEAAHHHH!) Then you'll have a...cake! Rub that, it's yours! Grab this, it's yours! Rub that, it's yours! Grab this, it's yours! Now turn around, put that on. Grind, make it get a little bigger! Now turn around, put that on. Grind, make it get a little bigger! You gotta do the cookin' by the book! HEY!
Mission146
Mission146 
Joined: May 15, 2012
  • Threads: 116
  • Posts: 11069
March 12th, 2018 at 12:40:58 AM permalink
Great explanation, Babs! I'm just going to quote and respond to a few little snippets:

Quote: beachbumbabs


I think Mission was correct in his intent and focus on stopping the doxxing. This is not the purpose of WoV. Wizard made comments previously about not allowing this site to host such practices. His intent appears to focus primarily on the good of the forum and the members, not protect SAP. There are possibly some apologies owed him for aspersions about his reasons for the deletions.



Thank you, and that is correct. As I explained in my post in Miscellaneous Discussion Thread (now quoted in an above post) those are the Forum Rules that I believed were being violated in that thread and the reasons why. My concern is also that we could set a dangerous precedent by allowing the post of non-volunteered personal information, which could potentially harm other people in the future aside from the person being discussed.

Nobody owes me an apology for anything. They have opinions as to the rightness or wrongness of my action and my motivations for taking that action. All of that is fine and I believe I have answered (either privately or publicly) to anything along those lines.

Quote:

I do not think the thread should have been deleted. I think identifying information should have been redacted and the link removed. Not to suppress the information on that website, but because the publisher unwisely (for our purpose of discussion) used SAP's full name as the link.



My stance on this was that there would essentially be no thread, anyway, if I did all of that Editing. The website in question was the subject matter of the thread and virtually every one of the few posts in that thread mentioned identifying information.

Quote:

Further, the website lists his wife, and provides a picture of her. Yet none of the complaints seem to include her. Very unfair to her.



100% agree.

Quote:

However, and this is where I may part ways with many of you, this forum collectively has a duty to warn. If members have allegations, factual issues or information, past bad experiences with SAP, whether they met him through this board or not, they have a right to be heard as well.

Ultimately, it will be up to the Wizard whether this thread continues. If it does, I will not allow SAP's legal name, address, or other identifying text to remain if posted. He can be referred to by any of his past forum names, of which there are about a dozen I know of. If his picture is posted, I'm not sure I can stop it, as the precedent was set (at my expense) that a person's picture can be posted by another member without their permission or agreement, and demands to take it down will be ignored. However, I will have ZERO tolerance for any photo or identifying info about his wife or other non-combatants.



I agree with all of this. I don't believe it violates Forum Rules to discuss this stuff in the context of someone's User Name(s), but I do believe that we need to extend some protections of the posting of personal information to Members whether they be banned or not. Otherwise, I think people might be rightly concerned that they will join this site only to perhaps have their personal information shared if they run afoul of someone.

It is for that reason that I would not have removed the post that quotes the website but changes all instances of his name to his handle and does not link to the website. There's no Doxxing going on when you're talking about a handle.

Quote:

The website does not contain copyright protection. So I don't believe RS is in violation of any rules, at least not their intent to protect fair use, by posting his redacted version of that narrative.



I agree with that.

Quote:

But the real challenge is to those, if any, members who have first hand experience with SAP. Facts are important. Slurs are unnecessary. Keep in mind the truism.that you can't con an honest man when considering your own part in whatever happened. But people need to understand how to avoid being vulnerable. Chances are some good object lessons could be taught if people discuss these situations openly and objectively.

I'm exhausted, and it's 3am. Going to stop talking. But I encourage you to start. If SAP has to reap.what he sowed, so be it. If there are those who have positive first-hand stories, let's hear them.

But no personal information on SAP, please.



I also agree with this. If you have something to say and are willing to put your handle out there, at least, and speak to your experiences, then there is no reason by way of the Rules that should be stopped as long as you are referring to a handle and not any personal information.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
Mission146 
Joined: May 15, 2012
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March 12th, 2018 at 12:43:09 AM permalink
Quote: RS

For those unsure of what's being discussed, here's the website, with redactions (protecting the personal information of con artists is important) --



Protecting the Personal Information of anyone is important. This is a message board that people sign up for anonymously, so any personal information that was not openly volunteered has no business being shared here. That is Rule #4 of this Forum.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
Mission146 
Joined: May 15, 2012
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March 12th, 2018 at 12:48:16 AM permalink
RS,

I will also add that I don't think you'd ever get banned from this Forum for any reason, and I seriously doubt any accusations of this nature will ever be made against you...but, if they were, would you not want me to protect your personal information?
Vultures can't be choosers.
MaxPen
MaxPen 
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
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Thanks for this post from:
RSBozCasinoKiller
March 12th, 2018 at 1:02:17 AM permalink
It is really pretty simple, at least in America. When you commit a crime your personal info is made public and is there for all to see.

https://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/CourtSummaryReport.ashx?docketNumber=MC-51-CR-0011118-2014

Your mugshots get published so that other potential victims can be alerted to the face behind the name.



The bigger question is why was a moderator of this forum looking for any infitessimal excuse to suppress the sharing of such info? Had the info been allowed to flow freely maybe there would be less victims.
Last edited by: MaxPen on Mar 12, 2018
GWAE
GWAE 
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March 12th, 2018 at 2:19:33 AM permalink
I think protection is ended when you commit a crime. If there were just accusations then that is one thing. look at the me too stuff. Many people's lives ruined on just "rumors" maybe where there is smoke there is fire but so far a lot of it is just an accusation. However in this case jeffwaren75 has commited crimes and it has affected many people on this forum. Once he opened the door by giving people his name I feel he loses his anonymity. Even if it was done in private if he gives someone his name and they find out he has been convicted it should be published in order to protect others. If we worry about the betterment of this forum that would have helped. Maybe I am biased since I am one of his victims.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
Nathan
Nathan 
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March 12th, 2018 at 2:25:24 AM permalink
No wonder Jeffwarren75 refused to tell me what he looked like when I tried to meet with him last year. ;)
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D A Ploppy trying to come across an AP. Now I've seen it all. LMAO! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D

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