20,000th Post
Poll
 | 26 votes (45.61%) | ||
| | 14 votes (24.56%) | ||
| | 6 votes (10.52%) | ||
| | 16 votes (28.07%) | ||
| | 11 votes (19.29%) | ||
| | 11 votes (19.29%) | ||
| | 16 votes (28.07%) |
57 members have voted
Quote: RSresponding to what DeMango wrote, you
I wrote and responded how I
wanted to, not how YOU wanted
me to, is that what you're saying?
Oh well, I don't remember your
wants and desires entering into
this and dictating how I should
respond.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionGod was around before the Bible.
There were thousands of gods before
the Bible, which one are you referring
to.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionThis is where the conservation of matter versus space-time comes into play. Whatever is left of us remains entombed in the universe. Where else is it going to go? Hence, the soul/spirit. It's not so much that it exists as much as it can't not exist.
"It can't not exist?"
Really?
We have a mind, with memories, all perfectly explainable as a biological construction.
When the body dies, so do the electrical signals.
End of story.
What, do you posit the existence of an afterlife that our minds are transported to?
Comforting widows and loving my neighbors might get me in trouble.Quote: RogerKintYeah all that "love your neighbor as yourself" and "feed the poor comfort the widows" was just an evil trick, Stoopidhoomans.
Jesus loves Axel
I don't need to believe in god or religion to be a good person and know right from wrong.
I don't hate God or religion. I don't judge or discriminate against people that believe in God or attend church. However, you will find many religious people that judge non-believers.
I think church can be good for many people socially.
I think there are some good values and morals kids can learn by going to church. If done right, I think it's a good thing to start your kids off with. But, I don't think parents should force their teens to go to church and force religion on them, just let them choose.
I think many parents end up trusting other members of the church with their kids just because those people are members of the church(they let their guard way down).
Thank you for reminding me Jesus love me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-LU4tNKddE
Quote: rainmanYou guys need a little Rock n Roll Jesus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-LU4tNKddE
Kid Rock! The next MI senator!
Yes. Is it too late?Quote: EvenBobSee the poll above.
This is my 20,000th post. Should I retire now,
is 20K enough? Should this be my last post
at WoV?
Quote: onenickelmiracleSome posts in the thread I feel are manipulative, dishonest, and sadistic.
Those are the pillars the church is built
on, just look at it's history.
Quote: rsactuaryThe overwhelming majority of voters says... go away.
Don't believe polls, they're always skewed one
way or another. Very unreliable.
Quote: EvenBobDon't believe polls, they're always skewed one
way or another. Very unreliable.
In this cas
e, they're sk
ewed in you
r favor.
Quote: RSIn this case, they're skewed in your favor.
My poll, the fix is in. I don't make
decisions based on polls, I'm not
a Hillary voter.
It's possible for there to be an afterlife and there to still not be God. How I don't know. I suppose it requires a grand illusion about life itself, many atheists believe in matrix like scenarios.Quote: MrV"It can't not exist?"
Really?
We have a mind, with memories, all perfectly explainable as a biological construction.
When the body dies, so do the electrical signals.
End of story.
What, do you posit the existence of an afterlife that our minds are transported to?
Quote: onenickelmiracleIt's possible for there to be an afterlife and there to still not be God. How I don't know.
Bingo. There has been a huge amount of
scientific investigation into reincarnation
in the last 60 years. Non religious, actual
science.
The Science of Reincarnation
http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation
There's a mountain of stuff written on
what they've discovered in their
research. Many a skeptic has looked
into their material and have come out
scratching their heads. There is for
sure something going on here.
One theory is, the material world may
be created by consciousness, not the
other way around. If true, consciousness
could continue on after the body dies.
It's intriguing stuff and the more you get
into it, the more sense it makes.
Reincarnation is an ancient concept, and
science finding evidence for it is interesting,
beyond interesting in fact.
The article I linked to is just one of hundreds
of articlea and books written over the last
60 years. Scoff if you like, but it's food for
thought, as they used to say. Reincarnation
as a fact and not connected to a god or
religion. Who woulda thunk..
An anomaly isn't necessarily evidence of God, but God would necessarily be an anomaly.Quote: rxwineEven if you can't explain an odd premise in physics, that does not mean God must exist. That's flawed logic.
The mind is the least understood organ of the body. This aside, our minds seem to go beyond our minds to ponder such reflective things as epiphenomenalism. A theatre of the mind. Something beyond mere physics and chemistry?Quote: MrV"It can't not exist?"
Really?
We have a mind, with memories, all perfectly explainable as a biological construction.
Uh, no, the universe isn't done with you yet.Quote: MrVWhen the body dies, so do the electrical signals.
End of story.
I suppose that the weaker argument is that non-believers want to carry on with indifference to the universe, and then face zero judgement on the end. No one wants peace more than the guy who won a war or other conflict. "I'm rich, now, so let me alone!" No conquest or conflict is a fair fight or struggle.
The stronger argument is that one can not be just dead and gone. Only a God could die a perfect, everlasting and complete "end of story" death. A death so removed as to be, at the same time, inseparable from life. How about our not-so-unique energies that continue to permeate the universe? And, the traits and other essences that were never really our own to begin with, but carry on regardless? How about quantum entanglement, which states, loosely, that time may intertwine with itself the same as space, ie, that the universe is still creating itself as a later time directly depends on the "new" outcome of an earlier one? We can't be truly dead while ever greater details or nuances in our lives continue to be fleshed out. Furthermore, the past/future and now are, reasonably and likely, the product of a single non-differentiable temporal dimension. The past is in the future, and the now was and will be again.
Why would an afterlife be essentially different or removed? God would be the only (true) anomaly that isn't explained away whether real or not. No, neither would positioning ourselves into non-believers versus believers provide a frame of reference.Quote: MrVWhat, do you posit the existence of an afterlife that our minds are transported to?
Who knows where you and your "buns" would reappear in mind and body. Is there a system of retribution or fairness for that? But that which is you, as opposed to God, namely, your soul and spirit, would go on.
The One that can't be killed, of course. The One also already dead. The One on the inside and outside.Quote: EvenBobThere were thousands of gods before
the Bible, which one are you referring
to.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionThe mind is the least understood organ of the body. This aside, our minds seem to go beyond our minds to ponder such reflective things as epiphenomenalism. A theatre of the mind. Something beyond mere physics and chemistry?
Uh, no, the universe isn't done with you yet.
I suppose that the weaker argument is that non-believers want to carry on with indifference to the universe, and then face zero judgement on the end. No one wants peace more than the guy than won a war or other conflict. "I'm rich, now, so let me alone!" No conquest or conflict is a fair fight or struggle.
The stronger argument is that one can not be just dead and gone. Only a God could die a perfect, everlasting and complete "end of story" death. A death so removed as to be, at the same time, inseparable from life. How about our not-so-unique energies that continue to permeate the universe? And, the traits and other essences that were never really your own to begin with, but carry on regardless? How about quantum entanglement, which states, loosely, that time may intertwine with itself the same as space, ie, that the universe is still creating itself as a later time directly depends on the "new" outcome of an earlier one? We can't be truly dead while ever greater details or nuances in our lives continue to be fleshed out. Furthermore, the past/future and now are, reasonably and likely, the product of a single non-differentiable temporal dimension. The past is in the future, and the now was and will be again.
Why would an afterlife be essentially different or removed? God would be the only (true) anomaly that isn't explained away whether real or not. No, neither would positioning ourselves into non-believers versus believers provide a frame of reference.
Who knows where you and your "buns" would reappear in mind and body. Is there a system of retribution or fairness for that? But that which is you, as opposed to God, namely, your soul and spirit, would go on.
I don't know yet what I think about this post, but thanks for a really interesting perspective.
You are welcome. Thank you for saying that.Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know yet what I think about this post, but thanks for a really interesting perspective.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionBut that which is you, as opposed to God, namely, your soul and spirit, would go on.
I had a friend die this week, that I've
known for 30 years. She fell and hit
her head and dropped dead the next
day.
When I examine my feelings, I'm sorry
for myself and her kids, we won't get
to see her again. But I don't worry
about her at all. I never wonder if
my parents who died 20 ago are
OK. I've never heard a Xtion in my
life express grief that a loved one
might be being tortured in hell
years after he died.
We seem to instinctively know these
people are all right, they are beyond
our caring. It's an instinct that says
this has happened before to all of us,
and will continue happening. We have
all died many times, on some level
we know what it is.
Grieve for yourself missing them, but we
seldom grieve about where they are
now. We know they're fine.
So it is. And, in many ways, beyond our control.Quote: EvenBobI've never heard a Xtion in my
life express grief that a loved one
might be being tortured in hell
years after he died.
We seem to instinctively know these
people are all right, they are beyond
our caring. It's an instinct that says
this has happened before to all of us,
and will continue happening. We have
all died many times, on some level
we know what it is.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionSo it is. And, in many ways, beyond our control.
A zen master lives in two worlds. The
world of his ego, where he likes TV
westerns and oatmeal for breakfast.
And the world where he's aware of
the real him, the one that lives
forever without an ego and without
a personal identity. His job is to give
students clues on how to experience
the eternal part of themselves.
Funerals are for the livingQuote: EvenBobGrieve for yourself missing them, but we
seldom grieve about where they are
now. We know they're fine.
http://www.two-views.com/health/funerals.html#sthash.dZRKY1OL.dpbs
Furthermore, perhaps, mourning and other thoughts are a way to help the dead person's spirit and soul achieve an equilibrium. Death is otherwise very sudden and disjointed. And it takes others to grieve for us.
What we, the living, feel depends on the types and degrees of connections to the dead, and the circumstances and natures of the deaths.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_geoffrey_skelley/just_how_many_obama_2012_trump_2016_voters_were_there
Quote: 1MatterToMotion"6% of all voters supported Trump while reportedly backing Obama in 2012. Conversely, just 2% reported voting for Mitt Romney in 2012 while casting ballots for Hillary Clinton in 2016."
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_geoffrey_skelley/just_how_many_obama_2012_trump_2016_voters_were_there
Bob says he voted for Obama in 2008, not 2012. By 2012 Bob realized what a mistake he made. But thanks for the info. 6% seems high but not impossible. I'd have bet on 2 or 3 %.
But I'm more curious if they reject the idea out of fear or logic. I suspect it's more out of fear than logic. Just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean it's not the correct choice. No matter how much you dislike it.
OTOH, I don't' know why it would be any more likely or not.
Quote: rxwineI like to posit that there is eternal pain for everyone, no exceptions, after death.
So just like life, then.
I dunno why everyone gets caught up on something they've spent most of eternity doing. Remember the French Revolution? How did you feel then? Face wasn't cold, wasn't hungry, did not suffer longing, sadness, pain, want, or desire. In the winter of 1795, I knew only perfect peace.
The idea of an after is but a manifestation of your own self importance.
Quote: FaceThe idea of an after is but a manifestation of your own self importance.
I keep trying to explain that to FrG
on the other forum but he just
doesn't get it.
Humans are not really even intelligent in the grand scheme, our intelligence is only derived from the leftovers of survival on this planet. We're only intelligent out of necessity with regards to Earth, intelligent is only in comparison to what is needed here.
Just name the questions, what is the fourth dimension, what is outside the universe, what is there besides the universe. The universe will always control us, have power over us, and everything in it, we're eternally weak and stupid, something will always be considered random.
Quote: EvenBobI keep trying to explain that to FrG
on the other forum but he just
doesn't get it.
Because he has a product to sell.
A lack of self is just the other side of self-promotion? Quite a stretch. Almost "juicy".Quote: FaceSo just like life, then.
I dunno why everyone gets caught up on something they've spent most of eternity doing. Remember the French Revolution? How did you feel then? Face wasn't cold, wasn't hungry, did not suffer longing, sadness, pain, want, or desire. In the winter of 1795, I knew only perfect peace.
The idea of an after is but a manifestation of your own self importance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IlleismQuote:
In everyday speech
Illeism in everyday speech can have a variety of intentions depending on context. One common usage is to impart humility, a common practice in feudal societies and other societies where honorifics are important to observe ("Your servant awaits your orders"), as well as in master–slave relationships ("This slave needs to be punished"). Recruits in the military, mostly United States Marine Corps recruits, are also often made to refer to themselves in the third person, such as "the recruit," in order to reduce the sense of individuality and enforce the idea of the group being more important than the self. The use of illeism in this context imparts a sense of lack of self, implying a diminished importance of the speaker in relation to the addressee or to a larger whole.
Conversely, in different contexts, illeism can be used to reinforce self-promotion, as used to sometimes comic effect by Bob Dole throughout his political career. This was particularly made notable during the United States presidential election, 1996 and lampooned broadly in popular media for years afterwards.
Similarly, illeism is used with an air of grandeur, to give the speaker lofty airs. Idiosyncratic and conceited people are known to either use or are lampooned as using illeism to puff themselves up or illustrate their egotism. The artist Salvador Dalí used illeism throughout his interview with Mike Wallace on The Mike Wallace Interview, punctuating it with "Dalí is immortal and will not die," although this may have been a reference to his oeuvre and artistic legacy rather than his actual self.
The wrestler The Rock was notorious for this, mainly to enhance his persona to a superhuman level. Deepanjana Pal of Firstpost noted that speaking in the third person "is a classic technique used by generations of Bollywood scriptwriters to establish a character’s aristocracy, power and gravitas." Conversely, third person self referral can be associated with self-irony and not taking oneself too seriously (since the excessive use of pronoun "I" is often seen as a sign of narcissism and egocentrism), as well as with eccentricity in general.
In certain Eastern religions, like Hinduism or Buddhism, this is sometimes seen as a sign of enlightenment, since by doing so, an individual detaches his eternal self (atman) from the body related one (maya). Known illeists of that sort include Swami Ramdas, Ma Yoga Laxmi, Anandamayi Ma, and Mata Amritanandamayi. Jnana yoga actually encourages its practitioners to refer to themselves in the third person.
Young children in Japan commonly refer to themselves by their own name (a habit probably picked from their elders who would normally refer to them by name. This is due to the normal Japanese way of speaking, where referring to another in the third person is considered more polite than using the Japanese words for "you", like Omae) though as the children grow older they normally switch over to using first person references. Japanese idols also may refer to themselves in the third person so to give off the feeling of childlike cuteness.
Perhaps the most important message to take away from any religion is to save yourself.Quote: IbeatyouracesBecause he has a product to sell.
From what?
Reality?
Quote: IbeatyouracesBecause he has a product to sell.
Your gods want your tax money. What are they selling you?
From ourselves.Quote: MrV"Save yourself?"
From what?
Reality?
Quote: MrV"Save yourself?"
From what?
Reality?
Arseholes
The reason it's best to think about it now. It's too late after you're dead.Quote: rxwineAlso, why do so many people expect death to result in answers? Maybe there will just be more questions.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionThe reason it's best to think about it now. It's too late after you're dead.
Why? Do you have other plans? I intend to use the first few years after I die to catch up on my sleep.
Of course, I have other plans. Why not? Is there a way to cheat death? But, maybe, this isn't the way to pose the question.
I wonder about EB stopping at 20,099 posts. Is this all there is from him? Will he give us an unearthly signal on the end?
Quote: 1MatterToMotion
I wonder about EB stopping at 20,099 posts. Is this all there is from him? Will he give us an unearthly signal on the end?
Well, in supposed hauntings, the spirit, or ghost hangs around bothering everyone long after it should have moved on.
Let's see....
Hmm.
These simple questions they just discount off hand. They admit were just smart monkeys, but cannot admit that it's possible smart monkey intelligence isn't enough to answer the question.
We know we can't personally beat big blue at chess, but they think they can outsmart an almighty if there is one. If they don't like my reasoning, they say I'm tricking them.
Yes it can be said the same from those who are believers, it's just as bad. I'm a true agnostic, but it's so over our pay grades. It can get freaky once you even try. For example, there could be a Good that created our universe, but maybe their existence came about without a God. Then they wouldn't be God, because they're really not all everything, just all everything over us as far as we know. It's funny though gun to my head, there is a God, seems like common sense, though it also makes sense to never know for sure.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThis gets old after a while, people just keep asserting they know everything when none of us know anything. It's especially irritating coming from the atheists, their brains are close minded, but they think they're superior and open minded.
Granted.
Here's where that goes wrong. Many if not most of the theists embrace a whole canopy of associated beliefs and behaviors associated with various texts and teachings.
If neither of us really know anything, which one of us is wasting time on a bunch of crap?
Not me.
Quote: onenickelmiraclepeople just keep asserting they know everything when none of us know anything.
We actually know more than we
think, we just can't articulate it.
We know what happens after
death, just look around you now.
We over think death, so the obvious
evades us. Look for the most boring
answer, and it's often the right one.
(no, the most boring answer is not
you snap off like a light switch when
you die)
