20,000th Post
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57 members have voted
Quote: MaxPenI see you like to take chances.😆👹👹😈😱
Well, I do travel to Detroit a lot!
Quote: EvenBob'Discovery', like he's hiding behind a
tree waiting to pop out at you? I'll
wait till the discovery is actually made
and in the meantime, go on like he
doesn't exist. Which, of course, obviously,
he does not.
All of mankind's discoveries are
equal to one grain of sand on the
beach there is an infinity of
discoveries left and one of
those may be God/ a God.
Quote: rainmanAll of mankind's discoveries are
equal to one grain of sand on the
beach there is an infinity of
discoveries left and one of
those may be God/ a God.
So why give it a second thought. My
feeling is the existence of a god would
be obvious and provable, and neither
is true. It's so unobvious that we have
invented thousands of gods over the millennia
to fill the void. None have stood the
test of time, all we're left with is a nameless
faceless one who stands for whatever
you like. The vanilla god.
Quote: MaxPenI believe in God because there is absolutely no benefit in not believing. How can an AP not believe in God?
Which one(s)?
Quote: Dalex64Which one(s)?
The ONE and only.
Quote: MaxPenThe ONE and only.
How did you do the task of
separating all of them? I'm
guessing you did nothing,
just believed what you were
told to believe and never
questioned it. Because, believe
me, when you start to question
it, it's a life changer from then
on. Better to play it safe and
keep your mind closed lake
a bear trap.
Quote: EvenBobHow did you do the task of
separating all of them? I'm
guessing you did nothing,
just believed what you were
told to believe and never
questioned it. Because, believe
me, when you start to question
it, it's a life changer from then
on. Better to play it safe and
keep your mind closed lake
a bear trap.
I do not have a preferential storyline. My God, is The ONE, for there can only be one.
You can draw as many lines as you like of varying lengths, but they all have the same middle and/or center.Quote: MaxPenThe ONE and only.
Yep. 20,000+ posts that all say the same thing?Quote: EvenBobBetter to play it safe and
keep your mind closed lake
a bear trap.
Not so true. You bitch every time someone mentions praying. If you felt you didn't know, you would just keep your mouth shut 20,000 times.Quote: EvenBobPeople love to over complicate everything.
An atheist is perfectly comfortable saying
'I don't know' to any question he doesn't
know the answer to. By comparison, far
too many people have to make up a god
and blame everything they don't understand
on him. Atheists are perfectly happy waiting
for the science and proof of something. We
feel no need to make up fairy tales to explain
things in the meantime.
Quote: MaxPenI do not have a preferential storyline. My God, is The ONE, for there can only be one.
For you, is what you mean. There
have been as many gods over the
ages as grains of sand on a beach.
The one that's left is the like
the skeleton key god, he fits all
occasions for all people. He's
whatever you want him to be, as all
imaginary friends are. He needs
you, because without you, he doesn't
exist at all. Stop believing and, poof,
he disappears like smoke because he
was never there to begin with.
Quote: AZDuffmanMy position is anyone who wants to defend their position of no god needs to explain to me how life formed from nothing since science has proven that is not possible.
At the risk of hijacking the thread, I have to call you on this one. What is this proof you speak of?
Quote: WizardAt the risk of hijacking the thread, I have to call you on this one. What is this proof you speak of?
There is no such proof because they can't
prove the universe has no beginning and
has in fact been here forever. Which, btw,
Hindu's and Buddhists believe. And so do
I.
God people think they see a creation, so
they erroneously go in search of a creator.
Not finding one, they make one up. It
makes far more sense that we are in an
eternal universe that has always been here
and will always be here. Not the galaxy
we live in, the universe the galazies
exist in.
The Earthly one, not the cosmic spiritual variety, but the terrestrial one for posting tens of thousands of times as a particular identity created on an internet forum. What does the winner win? And, BTW, how much greater would that prize be, if, just hypothetically, someone would've had many more ticks on a web forum odometer if they included a lot of other identities, sometimes even becoming different nationalities and genders and beliefs and whatnot, let alone the cooking up the tales of varied flavors of a successful gamblin' pro makin' stacks o' make-believe moolah as a roulette wheel psychic and whatnot. What extra prize would someone win then? If someone, somewhere, ever was obsessive enough that they actually spent years at a keyboard and did that, hypothetically.
There must surely be a reeeeeeally biiiiiiiiiiig prize involved, with a super nice shiny gold-star trophy.
I assume when you say "no benefit in not believing" You are assuming there is a benefit for believing, as in, going to heaven?Quote: MaxPenI believe in God because there is absolutely no benefit in not believing. How can an AP not believe in God?
You say it as if you are freerolling going to heaven by simply believing. I don't think its that easy(Assuming you are going by the bibble).
There is that whole giving up 10% to the church among many other things you have to do to get to heaven.
Quote: AxelWolfI assume when you say "no benefit in not believing" You are assuming there is a benefit for believing, as in, going to heaven?
You say it as if you are freerolling going to heaven by simply believing. I don't think its that easy(Assuming you are going by the bibble).
There is that whole giving up 10% to the church among many other things you have to do to get to heaven.
That is what churches would like you to believe. That is why I avoid them. All you have to do is accept God.
Quote: MaxPenAll you have to do is accept God.
Or not, there is no difference, because there
is no god to accept, just the one you made up
in your mind. That's why there have been so
many thousands of gods, they are as easy to
make up and dismiss as any other random
thought. If thinking there's a god floats
your boat, that's fine. Just keep him to
yourself and don't try and run my life with
your fantasies.
Quote: EvenBobOr not, there is no difference, because there
is no god to accept, just the one you made up
in your mind. That's why there have been so
many thousands of gods, they are as easy to
make up and dismiss as any other random
thought. If thinking there's a god floats
your boat, that's fine. Just keep him to
yourself and don't try and run my life with
your fantasies.
I do not share well with strangers. Therefore you have nothing to worry about. I am actually done discussing the subject as I believe everyone has a right to their beliefs. Like you, I do not need others pushing their beliefs on me.
You mean the one that fools us by not updating the bibble, fails to protect us from fake churches(and fake news), fails to protect us from the mass carnage, fails to even protect children from getting molested, tortured and murdered in brutal ways? Not only that, it seems to me he is culpable for creating a safe haven for predators in the churches.Quote: MaxPenThat is what churches would like you to believe. That is why I avoid them. All you have to do is accept God.
You say, "absolutely no benefit in not believing" That's a dumb argument to me.
How do you know heaven is even a good thing? Are you sure you are not being tricked and lured into an evil trap? This God guy seems a little tricky to me. It seems to me that anytime the ploppies/the masses are attracted to something bright and shiny, it's usually not a good thing.
If there is a higher being, and you think about it, it seems more likely that he knows exactly what to do in order to trick you into believing in him for nefarious reasons.
Perhaps some higher being is testing us with this God story just to see just how dumb humans are. The dumb ones get rejected.
Quote: MaxPenI am actually done discussing the subject .
You have to be done, there is no subject
to discuss. This happens a lot with people
who never think about their beliefs. When
forced to discuss them, they realize there
is no 'there' there and they retreat. It's
as fruitful talking about what unicorns
eat for dinner as it is discussing a god
that doesn't exist.
Quote: AxelWolfYou mean the one that fools us by not updating the bibble, fails to protect us from fake churches(and fake news), fails to protect us from the mass carnage, fails to even protect children from getting molested, tortured and murdered in brutal ways? Not only that, it seems to me he is culpable for creating a safe haven for predators in the churches.
You say, "absolutely no benefit in not believing" That's a dumb argument to me.
How do you know heaven is even a good thing? Are you sure you are not being tricked and lured into an evil trap? This God guy seems a little tricky to me. It seems to me that anytime the ploppies/the masses are attracted to something bright and shiny, it's usually not a good thing.
If there is a higher being, and you think about it, it seems more likely that he knows exactly what to do in order to trick you into believing in him for nefarious reasons.
Perhaps some higher being is testing us with this God story just to see just how dumb humans are. The dumb ones get rejected.
You are trying to get me involved in a religious debate. I probably have my dog tags somewhere. Army and Marine Corps both state "No Religious Preference". Doesn't mean that I don't believe in God. Just means I haven't bought into any particular story.
I believe in God just as I believe in the probability favoring other life exists in the Universe somewhere. More likely than not in my opinion. It would be nice if there was a Heaven, although I don't necessarily buy the fairy tale description of many religions. I have watched people die and I definitely believe each and every one of us possesses a soul or something that exits the body.
Quote: AxelWolfHow do you know heaven is even a good thing? Are you sure you are not being tricked and lured into an evil trap? This God guy seems a little tricky to me.
World mythology is loaded with trickster gods.
Loki is probably the most famous. The Hindu's
have a trickster god who has clothes that are
red on right side and blue on the left. Even his
hat is two colors. If you see him walking from
town he'll appear all dressed in blue. When
he comes home and passes your house, he's
all dressed in red.
The point is, never believe what you see, don't
be gullible.
- You're Done, Go Away
- You Should Have Been Banned at 10K Posts
- Nobody Here Likes You
Quote: RSI voted for:
- You're Done, Go Away
- You Should Have Been Banned at 10K Posts
- Nobody Here Likes You
And you need instruction on how to
use the blocked feature, is that what
you're asking?
Quote: onenickelmiraclepeople talk like they know something just to hide all they don't know.
That's the function god has always provided,
it's a kinda sort of explanation for whatever
we don't understand. Which was almost
nothing when god was invented.
The more we learn and discover, the more
the need for a god drops off. Makes perfect
sense.
Quote: onenickelmiracleNot so true. You bitch every time someone mentions praying. If you felt you didn't know, you would just keep your mouth shut 20,000 times.
And that is why I say atheism is a religion in and of itself.
Quote: WizardAt the risk of hijacking the thread, I have to call you on this one. What is this proof you speak of?
The disproving of Spontaneous Generation that we all learned in high school is my main reasoning.
My other reasoning is that we should have seen life of some sort on our neighbor planets. On Mars we have not even found any microbial life. Life came from something, not out of nothing.
I will again offer to let people believe in "Mother Nature" guiding things if "God" makes them uncomfortable. At the risk of further hijack, or not in a meandering thread to begin with, look at how much programming so many animals have in what we call "instinct."
How did say a bird get programmed to build a nest? It cannot be just over time, since it is an inherited trait. Generations of birds would never have reproduced. Did one bird just decide to make a nest? Well, they could not have just out of nothing, that goes against inherited traits. IOW, like life, behaviors cannot just spring up out of nothing. Something is guiding things.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe disproving of Spontaneous Generation that we all learned in high school is my main reasoning.
My other reasoning is that we should have seen life of some sort on our neighbor planets. On Mars we have not even found any microbial life. Life came from something, not out of nothing.
I will again offer to let people believe in "Mother Nature" guiding things if "God" makes them uncomfortable. At the risk of further hijack, or not in a meandering thread to begin with, look at how much programming so many animals have in what we call "instinct."
How did say a bird get programmed to build a nest? It cannot be just over time, since it is an inherited trait. Generations of birds would never have reproduced. Did one bird just decide to make a nest? Well, they could not have just out of nothing, that goes against inherited traits. IOW, like life, behaviors cannot just spring up out of nothing. Something is guiding things.
I think Natural Selection is much more at work in your specific example than a God influence.
Birds build nests because they're easier to defend than eggs laid without a nest. They keep the eggs gathered so the parent sitting on the nest can keep then in a close group to be warmed and protected. They give the young birds a platform that supports from underneath, protects from pests getting directly to them, the sides keep them corralled together until they're old enough to move. It can catch food that's dropped, perhaps retain some heat during cold periods. If the bird can fly, a nest in a tree puts it out of reach of predators.
The nest itself could be an environmental transition as the bird flourished. The most successful might not have built nests at first, but found that living in the center of a dense bush provided more protection. As they spread to areas with sparser foliage, they recreated the dense and supporting environment by moving and weaving twigs to an otherwise bare perch.
When birds first became distinct from other species, there were probably those that built nests and those that didn't. Over thousands of generations, those that built nests probably died at a lower rate than those that didn't, and their young reached maturity more successfully. They experienced a nest, and they copied their experience. So the use of one became ingrained in the dominant number of each type of bird that used them, to where now, it's a standard behavior.
To me, this makes total logical sense, without the intervention of a Creator or planned direction in their development. And can be extrapolated to a larger group of animal behaviors. If the consequences of not doing something lessen the population compared to those that do that thing, doing it will become dominant, and the future generations will continue the behavior.
I think it would have been interesting to be there when the first creature that COULD fly figured out they could. That must've been a real game-changer.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think Natural Selection is much more at work in your specific example than a God influence.
Natural selection does not "make" a new species. It might improve the breed, but it cannot make a new species.
Quote:When birds first became distinct from other species, there were probably those that built nests and those that didn't. Over thousands of generations, those that built nests probably died at a lower rate than those that didn't, and their young reached maturity more successfully. They experienced a nest, and they copied their experience. So the use of one became ingrained in the dominant number of each type of bird that used them, to where now, it's a standard behavior.
To me, this makes total logical sense, without the intervention of a Creator or planned direction in their development. And can be extrapolated to a larger group of animal behaviors. If the consequences of not doing something lessen the population compared to those that do that thing, doing it will become dominant, and the future generations will continue the behavior.
I think it would have been interesting to be there when the first creature that COULD fly figured out they could. That must've been a real game-changer.
None of this explains why a bird "knows" how to build a nest. Humans do not know how to build shelter. it is all taught. But a mother bird just does it all naturally. Birds are far from the only animals with some kind of instinct like this. Your "early birds" example is flawed because the birds did not just decide to try and build nests. Something drove it.
They did not "copy" it as you suggest. They do not go to birdie trade school. Mother bird just knows how to do it. To say this happened by chance, trial and error, is absurd.
In summary, Natural Selection will let the strongest of a species survive. It cannot make new species. Species rarely can interbreed. When they do, the offspring is often infertile. NS does not come close to answering the question.
One more question still unanswered, WHERE DID LIFE START? Did two rocks "breed" and something formed? Life cannot just happen out of nothing.
Quote: AZDuffmanLife cannot just happen out of nothing.
It is a fundamental law of science that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
Which leads to an insoluble conundrum: If matter cannot be created or destroyed, where and how was the matter currently incorporated in the universe created?
In the alternative, if the universe has always existed, how can such a thing be possible?
Mind-boggling stuff.
Quote: MrVIt is a fundamental law of science that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
Which leads to an insoluble conundrum: If matter cannot be created or destroyed, where and how was the matter currently incorporated in the universe created?
In the alternative, if the universe has always existed, how can such a thing be possible?
Mind-boggling stuff.
Again, this is just wrong. To begin, "The first law of thermodynamics doesn't actually specify that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead that the total amount of energy in a closed system cannot be created nor destroyed (though it can be changed from one form to another)."
http://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/askaphysicist/physics-answer.cfm?uid=20120221015143
The question remains: where did it come from and how did it get there (matter, energy or both)?
Quote: AZDuffmanOne more question still unanswered, WHERE DID LIFE START? Did two rocks "breed" and something formed? Life cannot just happen out of nothing.
Real life is eternal, without end. And, as a species along with other species of "life" we are eternal, but no one select member of us is. Would such a member be God?
Material energy cancels out spatial or gravitational energy. The two energies can be said to derive from nothing.Quote: MrVOK, whatever.
The question remains: where did it come from and how did it get there (matter, energy or both)?
Hawking's black hole radiation involves the spontaneous creation of mass at the event horizon (outer range of the black hole). Both negative and positive mass from the high energy there. The negative mass falls into the black hole to shrink it, and the positive mass is ejected or returned to normal space. Simplified explanation. Don't quote me on it.
Photons routinely "decay" to form an electron and anti-electron, and versa. Out of, and back to, nothing. Dirac's equation, which relates relativity to quantum science. Space is empty in the relative sense, but full of energy in the quantum.
Quote: AxelWolfYou mean the one that fools us by not updating the bibble, fails to protect us from fake churches(and fake news), fails to protect us from the mass carnage, fails to even protect children from getting molested, tortured and murdered in brutal ways? Not only that, it seems to me he is culpable for creating a safe haven for predators in the churches.
You say, "absolutely no benefit in not believing" That's a dumb argument to me.
How do you know heaven is even a good thing? Are you sure you are not being tricked and lured into an evil trap? This God guy seems a little tricky to me. It seems to me that anytime the ploppies/the masses are attracted to something bright and shiny, it's usually not a good thing.
If there is a higher being, and you think about it, it seems more likely that he knows exactly what to do in order to trick you into believing in him for nefarious reasons.
Perhaps some higher being is testing us with this God story just to see just how dumb humans are. The dumb ones get rejected.
Yeah all that "love your neighbor as yourself" and "feed the poor comfort the widows" was just an evil trick, Stoopidhoomans.
Jesus loves Axel
Quote: onenickelmiracleAnimals can have society where knowledge is passed on between generations, can copy what they see others doing successfully./q]
They can, but this does not explain instinct. You can take an infant animal, separate it from the flock, and the same instincts will be there.All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Quote: AZDuffmanMy other reasoning is that
'Reasoning' is what gets us in god trouble
every time. The Church 'reasoned' that
wells drying up and women having stillbirths
were the cause of the devil and witches, so
they burned thousands of women at the stake
for centuries. The Church 'reasoned' that
the earth was the center of the universe.
They 'reasoned' that women are inferior beings
and to this day a woman cannot be a priest
in their church.
People look around and think they see a creation,
so they 'reason' a god that must have created it.
Of the course it's far more likely the universe has
always been here and works in a way we don't
entirely understand yet. But that info gives you no
power over others, and inventing angry demanding
silly gods does. Gods you can obey, gods that have
priests pushing their made up agenda. gods you
can pray to that will grant your every wish if you
do it correctly. (That's what Jesus said if you pray
to him, look it up)
If we wait long enough, science will explain everything,
it always does. Making up fairy tales like gods to
fill in the gaps is a serious non productive waste of time.
People and to a degree animals can feel happiness, sadness, guilt, empathy(?), remorse, love, hatred, and much more. I know the difference between doing right and wrong. I have a conscience. Where'd that all come from and why haven't the bad ones gone away like guilt, empathy, and a conscience?
Quote: EvenBob
If we wait long enough, science will explain everything,
it always does. Making up fairy tales like gods to
fill in the gaps is a serious non productive waste of time.
Science has already said life cannot come out of nothing and matter cannot be created. Please come up with some new material.
Quote: AZDuffmanScience has already said life cannot come out of nothing
Why do you always assume we're
dealing with 'nothing'. Where do
you get that from. You take an
unproven premise and then treat
it as a fact. Quit it.
If the universe has been here forever,
there was never 'nothing'. Not the
galaxy or galaxies, but the universe
the galaxies exist in, has been here
forever.
It's people that have a god agenda that
have to make up creations, so they can
invent a god creator. And give him
personality traits and make themselves
the enforcers of his rules so they can
have power over others. Like the priests
in every organized religion since time
began.
Quote: AZDuffmanScience has already said life cannot come out of nothing and matter cannot be created. Please come up with some new material.
Look, life comes from organic chemistry, those organic elements of which we are composed. And only numbers of protons, neutrons and electrons separate the organic from the non-organic elements. One element is as much an element as another. Where there is organic, there is non-organic. Can't have one without the other. No mystery there. As far as instincts go, animals removed from their natural environment and parentage early on require retraining to survive in the wild. Where are you guys getting your stuff?
The universe is not a collection of laws. How could it have any idea what it's supposed to be? The reason to "ignore all laws", the only rule being that there are no rules. So, it "covers its ass" by, eg, having like charges attract on one level but repel on another. Similarly, it's as logical for nothing to remain nothing as it is for nothing to be made of something + and something - . (0 exponent 0 or of itself is 0 in some cases but 1 in others.) Does the universe know there is not a God?
Science is hard to ask but easy to answer once you understand the question. Religion is easy to ask, buy very difficult to answer.
Quote: RSSo the concept of there being some singularity existing forever is perfectly fine, but God being here forever is some unfathomable notion? Hah.
What god, the one you made up?
Which one, there are thousands.
Do you have a specific god in mind,
or just the vanilla god, the one size
fits all god, with no name of face.
The god you can't prove exists, but
know he does because that's what
were taught as a child.
Sure he can be here forever, or not.
He's just a figment of your imagination,
what's the difference.
Quote: EvenBob
If the universe has been here forever,
there was never 'nothing'.
In any event, relativity theory is based on a space with nothing in it. Something in it would give away our position in it as we move through it. But there is nothing. We can never know our direction through space on this earth.
I think that avatar of EB's is of himself holding his hands over his eyes.
Quote: MaxPenI have watched people die and I definitely believe each and every one of us possesses a soul or something that exits the body.
Sorry if you don't want to talk about it, but was there something specific that you saw/felt that made you believe something was exiting the body?
I've seen a number of people die, all strangers, and personally I've never had that feeling.
Quote: 1MatterToMotionReligion is easy to ask, buy very difficult to answer.
Very good, I might steal this. Religion
is the easiest of all, that's why there
are so many of them. You don't need
reason, logic, or proof. All you need is
emotion and gullible people, and there's
always plenty of both to go around.
Religion always goes for the easiest
answer to everything, that's why it's
so useless and flawed. In science they
say we stand on the shoulders of giants,
people who figured out how things work
by sheer brain power. In religion, we
stand on the shoulders of lazy dreamers,
spinners of tall stories and fairy tales, instead
of doing the real work of finding the
truth. The hard work, the productive work.
Quote: EvenBobWhy do you always assume we're
dealing with 'nothing'. Where do
you get that from. You take an
unproven premise and then treat
it as a fact. Quit it.
At one point there was no life on Earth, just like Mars today. We know this because we can date when Earth was formed. Somehow, life came from nothing, which I will keep saying until you can do better than "Uh, I dunno but it is impossible it was some greater force!"
Why did no form of life happen on Venus or Mars? Or any other planet? By your logic, it should have, in some form.
