SHOOTING at Mandalay festival

Steve Wynn

Quote:

Wynn also said Stephen Paddock and his girlfriend were well-known to his staff.

“He's been staying in Las Vegas since ‘06.  So you know, we're talking about 11 years with his girlfriend or at least in recent years, frequent visitor, once or twice a month, to this hotel and others. The most vanilla profile one could possibly imagine. A modest gambler at least by our standards, you know, nothing serious, paid promptly, never owed any money anywhere in Las Vegas. He didn't fit the profile of a problem or compulsive gambler.”  

When asked whether he had a motive regarding Paddock’s murderous rampage, Wynn suggested that his previous behavior suggested the gunman was “a rational man.”

“This is a man who behaved rationally, privately, a little introverted, liked to play video poker. But he was a rational man. And every historical review of his behavior indicates that he was a rational man; so was his girlfriend. And yet he prepared over an extended period of time, a totally irrational act.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/las-vegas-gunman-seemed-like-a-rational-man-steve-wynn-tells-fox-news-sunday/ar-AAt50WB?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

It's hard to have sympathy for someone's 2nd amendment right to own 40 guns, even if you lowballed the staggering cost this would be awarded in a lawsuit, if any entity was able to be sued for the full cost. Damages which are likely to last for years for some people's medical costs. Not to mention other pain or suffering due to loss or mental trauma.

Do people who ordinarily complain about someone stealing your money (like the government) care about that, or is it just the fact it wasn't you in this case?

The thread has devolved somewhat which is normal. What is apparent is that "responsible gun owners" want to keep their guns. One can argue the intentions of the 2nd amendment. We've talked about mental health.

It doesn't matter. States can and have successfully limit types of weapons available, cartridge sizes, quantity limits, mental health checks, etc. All have been constitutionality challenged and states are indeed free to put limits on firearm ownership and can restrict for different reasons (felonies, criminals, reports of domestic abuse, mental health) and have done so. Nevada is a lax state, in the west, and is not surprisingly, not one of them. I suspect that Nevada will be changing their laws shortly to reflect the shootings and at least start putting together a slate of gun control regulations in urban counties such as Clark and Elko. There will be financial reasons to do that and make visitors feel safe. The LV Visitors bureau will see numbers in the next three months that will reflect the tourist hit that the city took because of the shootings. And the government will react vigorously to bring back those revenue numbers, and the casinos will reply to keep its stock prices in check.

You really have three choices here:
- do nothing and chalk it up to the 2nd amendment and cost of freedom.
- enact laws to limit weapons which are consitutional and legal, be it by quantity, mental health condition, cartridge limits, permits, education, etc.
- enact security in tall buildings and vulnerable places so that tragedies like this don't happen again until the next security hole opens up and another mass shooting occurs.

The fact that the guy liked to gamble and, despite Wynn's statements, was more than a ploppy but less than a whale. Strong enough to land perks like free RFB, weak enough to not have hosts and casinos fawning over him. All that the gambling past gives us is a personality profile that can be provided by casinos, which really focus on the things important to casinos: ability to pay, types of comps to earn, and any incidents reported by the casinos. His latest casino stay was at MB and they have been pouring over their video for "lessons learned".

Nobody who is sane decides to shoot barrages of bullets into a crowd. The behavior screams of mental health issues, not picked up by his girlfriend or anyone else. Having been there myself, you have to look for the unusual behavior and link it back to a mental health condition. The only hint, if true, is the guy moaning and screaming in bed "Oh my God" reported by the girlfriend.

We've gone thru the crisis stage wherein information was coming in fast and furiously and no one could actually do anything.
We've passed the Triage and 'scoop and run' proceedings and things are in general rather quiet.

No one at this stage seems to actually have answers but there are interesting issues to be explored: location of sniper's lair. Sniper's mental state. Sniper's lifestyle.

We all want to "find a solution" but I fear there is none. Bad legistation will be adopted because of this. Bad events create bad laws.

We might all want to step back a year in time to the start of his gun acquisition spree, but so what? Many buy lots of guns and do not go around planning or executing any mass murder.

In short we really have to adopt the attitude that there is nothing we can do. Those who were there zigged and perhaps did so when they should have zagged. Its over now.

The autopsy will be a whitewash, the final report will be a thick tome of gobbledygook.

Its over.

Quote: FleaStiff

In short we really have to adopt the attitude that there is nothing we can do.

On that note, "The Onion" has been running the same article every time there is mass shooting. They just change the names and city and use the same quotes over again.

Quote:

This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Michigan resident Emily Harrington,

Quote: FleaStiff

Pretty much true, but there was also an emphasis on poor whites but in general it was aimed at those who shouldn't be allowed to breed. At the time the scientific literature was full of different races and a general concern for the avoidance of bastardy in a situation where the poor white or black female was considered incapable of exercising restraint or discretion. Only white males were considered to have intelligence to overcome their baser instincts.

Actually its false. Planned Parenthood was started in 1916 by Margaret Sanger who had been working as a visiting nurse in the slums of NYC. Sanger was pissed because the women in these neighborhoods (mainly immigrants from Catholic countries) underwent frequent childbirth, miscarriages and self-induced abortions for lack of information on how to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Sanger stated that final straw was when she accompanied a doctor to the apartment of a woman who had become extremely ill due to a self-induced abortion. Afterward, the woman begged the doctor to tell her how she could prevent future pregnancies, to which the doctor simply advised her to remain abstinent. A few months later, Sanger was called back to the same apartment — only this time, the woman died from another self-induced abortion.

As Patrick Moynihan said “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

The onion's humor is usually interesting even though I've not visited the site for a long time. However, its basically true. Its similar to these cars being driven into crowds or the bombs at teeny bopper concerts: Get used to it. Its the real world.

Those who assumed the sniper was in the hotel tower and ran to get under the gun were probably smartest, but no one running was able to run faster than a bullet. Some lived, some died. Some probably never knew they had been shot.

Remember Con Air: The guy who had driven thru three states wearing a little girl's head as if it were a hat said that maybe working in a cubicle until put out to pasture was what was insane.

The shooter got his revenge. Against what or whom, I have no idea, but as The Gambler's lyrics go "somewhere in the darkness the gambler he got even" the shooter got even with whatever it was that was troubling him.

He played video poker and seems not to have interacted with very many people. Perhaps he liked it that way; perhaps not.
Was he getting even with the NT's that tormented him? He decided over a year ago to buy lots of guns. He had enough self control to handle his life then, but did not exercise that self control to stop his actions.

Quote: FleaStiff

The shooter got his revenge. Against what or whom, I have no idea

Perhaps he remembered the day he could stay inside hotels when the entertainment was kept inside and not making all that racket outside half the night.

(scene: on bed screaming and groaning) "Them or me, them or me." Finally concluded THEM!

Quote: Drawing

It is painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about, have never really known anyone there, and likely never will be allowed to do so, for very good reason. Cut the crap already dude, it ooozes all over out of you and smells like bloody Hell.

Yet another vicious vial personal attack. The point remains as it always was, the Filipino "girlfriend" may have driven him to this madness. I'm not blaming her. The other members seem to be able to see the tidbits as additional information and contributions to the theory, not "off topic" rants. However, if you want to relay to us your personal experiences in metro Manila I'd suggest starting a new discussion another section. Up to you of course. Thanks.

Quote: mamat

IMO NokTang, you'd probably get a more favorable response here if you talked about...facts relevant to the Las Vegas shooting.

You may be talking about your experiences.

...but people will get confused.
The shooter's girlfriend was 62 yrs old.

...so a rant about 70 yr olds with 22 yr old Filipinos will seem strange.

Just my two cents.
Peace everyone... Let's try to keep it civil.

A few personal attacks are always the way of the Filipino crowd. As I said, "she really loves you" applies. Most don't get the context of money in an impoverished nation and mindset. I try and keep things civil and her involvement is a fact relevant to the shooting. Involvement in the sense of in the killers mind, not actually contributing to the planning and execution of the act. Members have been warned, and in at least one example here shown what can happen. Can you actually imagine a minimum wage standard making a difference in a country like the Philippines? Quite a naive and vicious personal attack basis. Follow the money, the $100,000.usd, which I'm sure they are doing behind the scenes.....

Quote: FleaStiff

"somewhere in the darkness the gambler he got even"

He "broke even."

Not to be confused with this psychopath.

Quote: CrystalMath

He "broke even."
Not to be confused with this psychopath.

I'm not sure. Something bothered him. Socially inept? Who knows. Debits and Credit type jobs don't need glad-handing salesmen types. Did he have a hatred of the neurologically typical person who interacted well with others.

Was he getting revenge on someone specific or simply a generalized "other" ? Mowing down hordes of innocent bystanders happens in video games. We watch movies such as Death Race 2000 where contestants gain points for mowing down pedestrians and bonus points for children or handicapped. We watch Demolition Derby rather than race laps.

"rage, rage against the dying of the light'.... well, perhaps he raged.

His value system was different but I wonder if ISIS warriors reading the news are not happy about what happened. He must have hated something real bad.

Quote: rxwine

Steve Wynn

Wynn also said Stephen Paddock and his girlfriend were well-known to his staff.

“He's been staying in Las Vegas since ‘06. So you know, we're talking about 11 years with his girlfriend or at least in recent years, frequent visitor, once or twice a month, to this hotel and others. The most vanilla profile one could possibly imagine. A modest gambler at least by our standards, you know, nothing serious, paid promptly, never owed any money anywhere in Las Vegas. He didn't fit the profile of a problem or compulsive gambler.”

When asked whether he had a motive regarding Paddock’s murderous rampage, Wynn suggested that his previous behavior suggested the gunman was “a rational man.”

“This is a man who behaved rationally, privately, a little introverted, liked to play video poker. But he was a rational man. And every historical review of his behavior indicates that he was a rational man; so was his girlfriend. And yet he prepared over an extended period of time, a totally irrational act.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/las-vegas-gunman-seemed-like-a-rational-man-steve-wynn-tells-fox-news-sunday/ar-AAt50WB?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Steve Wynn is a amazing guy.

When one of the biggest whales in Las Vegas, Terrence Watanabe, lost around $280 million (I forget the exact number, and websites keep copying each other's bad info).... Steve said "You have a gambling problem" & wouldn't allow Terrence to gamble.

Simply incredible.

So I would tend to trust Steve Wynn's assessment of character.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/08/las-vegas-gunman-seemed-like-rational-man-steve-wynn-tells-fox-news-sunday.html

Fascinating long interview (10 min) with Steve Wynn.

Steve Paddock & girlfriend NEVER drank alcohol in 11 years at the Wynn.

Quote: FleaStiff

I'm not sure. Something bothered him. Socially inept? Who knows. Debits and Credit type jobs don't need glad-handing salesmen types. Did he have a hatred of the neurologically typical person who interacted well with others.

Was he getting revenge on someone specific or simply a generalized "other" ? Mowing down hordes of innocent bystanders happens in video games. We watch movies such as Death Race 2000 where contestants gain points for mowing down pedestrians and bonus points for children or handicapped. We watch Demolition Derby rather than race laps.

"rage, rage against the dying of the light'.... well, perhaps he raged.

His value system was different but I wonder if ISIS warriors reading the news are not happy about what happened. He must have hated something real bad.

Perhaps a biochemical change. Like getting rabies (without the foaming mouth).

However, some stories report him as being kinda sad/depressed/not-well in the past few months.

Quote: boymimbo

There will be financial reasons to do that and make visitors feel safe. The LV Visitors bureau will see numbers in the next three months that will reflect the tourist hit that the city took because of the shootings. And the government will react vigorously to bring back those revenue numbers, and the casinos will reply to keep its stock prices in check.

I don't think a drop in tourism to Las Vegas is a given, but we shall see. I certainly have not changed my opinion about visiting Las Vegas...in fact I drove out to Las Vegas last Monday to attend G2E...a large gathering of people in Las Vegas where there is no metal detector you are required to pass through to enter the trade show floor. I wasn't concerned at all...by that point it was getting clear this was not a ISIS terrorist attack on Vegas, this was a crazy A$$H@L# that happened to live in Mesquite, NV and visit Vegas frequently who snapped...a "one off" as it relates to Las Vegas. This event could have happened anywhere...the guy was allegedly looking at other concert locations.

I do think the outdoor concert venues are going to be hurt and hurt badly particularly if there are tall buildings nearby. Wonder what Lollapalooza crowd is going to be next year or "Life is Beautiful" concert in Vegas...I bet those crowds are way down vs. the last show. And Route 91 Concert is done in Vegas unless they use a different name & indoor location...T Mobile Center is nearby, I would go to a concert in a facility like T Mobile with metal detectors in a heartbeat.

There may even be a push to go to Vegas by some folks...support the city and the local workers there....go to Vegas and support #VegasStrong. All this is conjecture for sure, but I don't think this has any long term impact on Vegas, the casinos or the stocks of the companies that own them.

But all that said, this is a disaster for the many that were affected and their stories are heartwrenching...the monetary impact and future of Vegas is not a concern for any of those families and my heart goes out to them....their lives are forever altered by chance and circumstance and it is impossible to get my head around what they are going through.

Quote: FleaStiff

We've gone thru the crisis stage wherein information was coming in fast and furiously and no one could actually do anything.
We've passed the Triage and 'scoop and run' proceedings and things are in general rather quiet.

No one at this stage seems to actually have answers but there are interesting issues to be explored: location of sniper's lair. Sniper's mental state. Sniper's lifestyle.

We all want to "find a solution" but I fear there is none. Bad legistation will be adopted because of this. Bad events create bad laws.

We might all want to step back a year in time to the start of his gun acquisition spree, but so what? Many buy lots of guns and do not go around planning or executing any mass murder.

In short we really have to adopt the attitude that there is nothing we can do. Those who were there zigged and perhaps did so when they should have zagged. Its over now.

The autopsy will be a whitewash, the final report will be a thick tome of gobbledygook.

Its over.

Somehow the monocle sniper does not fit this killer. How is shooting 100's of rounds a minute into a distant huge crowd snipping? Snipping is basically taking out a target in singular fashion then moving location. Nothing this guy did suggests he had any known targets except something soft and unprotected.
I think it's still speculation he targeted the fuel tanks.

Quote: boymimbo

Nobody who is sane decides to shoot barrages of bullets into a crowd. The behavior screams of mental health issues, not picked up by his girlfriend or anyone else. Having been there myself, you have to look for the unusual behavior and link it back to a mental health condition. The only hint, if true, is the guy moaning and screaming in bed "Oh my God" reported by the girlfriend.

Is there clear indications his moaning in bed during sleep was not about ecstasy? I've been known to moan in ecstasy in my sleep, fortunately I've been lucky enough to do so using the correct name of whomever I'm with that night.

Or else I wouldn't be waking up.

Quote: NokTang

A few personal attacks are always the way of the Filipino crowd. As I said, "she really loves you" applies. Most don't get the context of money in an impoverished nation and mindset. I try and keep things civil and her involvement is a fact relevant to the shooting. Involvement in the sense of in the killers mind, not actually contributing to the planning and execution of the act. Members have been warned, and in at least one example here shown what can happen. Can you actually imagine a minimum wage standard making a difference in a country like the Philippines? Quite a naive and vicious personal attack basis. Follow the money, the $100,000.usd, which I'm sure they are doing behind the scenes.....

You seem to be struggling to even stay on topic. Perhaps your advice to start another thread would work for you as well.
Mamat hasn't posted anything vicious that I can tell on this thread. Mamat was very civil.
This is about the Vegas shooting and the shooter. Not the employment conditions of lessor countries.

Quote: Paradigm

I don't think a drop in tourism to Las Vegas is a given, but we shall see.

For what it's worth, I booked a flight soon after 911 assuming the air fair would be cheaper.

If hotel rates drop, I have little doubt people will show up. Also, there is nothing to indicate Vegas was any less a target before this. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is only surprised it went this long without something that would be classified as a major event.

Worst single mass murder shooting in US history, I assume qualifies.

Quote: rxwine

Worst single mass murder shooting in US history

For now.

I fear another disturbed attention whore will top it.

That's the way things seem to go.

I hope not.

It seems this "socially inept loner" image is perhaps not valid. He made most of his money as a salesman in the family's real estate firm so he had to have some social skills.

Motive never has to be proven but it sure helps the jury.

Sniper... I agree. I think of a sniper as a man with a telescopic sight taking out ONE target, not a crazed shooter spraying rounds into densely packed concert goers.

"attention whore".... attention to what?

Twelve minutes?

Quote: FleaStiff

"attention whore".... attention to what?

Twelve minutes?

He's globally famous. His name will still be known long after any of ours. He ended or otherwise dramatically altered the course of thousands of lives. Laws might be written because of him. etc.

Quote: sammydv

You seem to be struggling to even stay on topic. Perhaps your advice to start another thread would work for you as well.
Mamat hasn't posted anything vicious that I can tell on this thread. Mamat was very civil.
This is about the Vegas shooting and the shooter. Not the employment conditions of lessor countries.

Hello. I wasn't referring to member Mamat. Some others have typed out personal attacks and the usual name calling macho keyboard warrior stuff. The employment conditions (actually, only wages were mentioned, conditions are another topic) were mentioned to give context of the $100,000.usd which the killer sent to this so called "girlfriend" in the days leading up to his act. I remain convinced a Filipino "girlfriend" could drive a man to madness, even to this extent. Some Filipino customer service agents can drive others mad, they just don't end up being mass murderers. I specially recall when AOL was first to provide internet and farmed out their customer service to Clark Air Base in Angeles City, PI. My own next door neighbor in Georgia, an intelligent woman, was completely frustrated and out of her wits when I luckily intervened and told her it was a Filipino driving her nuts and helped her with what at the time was a simple fix to her AOL account. Rest assured, and be advised, they don't sell wind up dolls which steal in Manila for no reason.

The problem with getting information on someone after the fact is.....well, it's sort of like after someone dies. You don't hear that person was a loner, depressed, etc. all you hear is how they loved life, inspiration to all, etc.

Even if Paddock were just a regular person, it wouldn't be surprising at all to hear people say he was a loner, depressed, etc. etc. even if it weren't true.

Oct 9, 3am (only a few hrs old):
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-vegas-shooting-gambler-20171009-story.html

Describes the shooter's life/background as a VP Pro.
includes stories from other gambling pros who knew him/sat next to him


"Paddock, say some of those who’ve watched him play, seemed to be in it not to get rich so much as to enjoy the perks that go along with being a regular.

Anthony Curtis, a professional gambler who runs one of the authoritative guides to the Las Vegas casinos, the Las Vegas Advisor, said Paddock was what is known as a "comp hustler" — someone who plays well enough to get significant compensation in the form of suites, limos and food."


also:
But drinking seemed to be a common denominator among those who saw him in action.
"He was a heavy drinker and that is what impressed upon on them,” Curtis said.

wonder why he never drank at the Wynn in the 11years he played there?

Quote: that article

"He was a heavy drinker and that is what impressed upon on them,” Curtis said.

If I'm reading this right, Anthony Curtis is saying Paddock was a heavy drinker...?

I think another article, the guy who was being interviewed (I think Steve Wynn?), said he didn't drink at all.



Granted, people change over time and sometimes people who are alcoholics quit and sometimes people just start drinking because of their problems. It'd be interesting to know when Anthony Curtis's interactions were with Paddock (if any) as well as Steve Wynn's [assuming it was the Steve Wynn article that said Paddock didn't drink at all].

Quote: RS

Quote: that article

"He was a heavy drinker and that is what impressed upon on them,” Curtis said.

If I'm reading this right, Anthony Curtis is saying Paddock was a heavy drinker...?

I think another article, the guy who was being interviewed (I think Steve Wynn?), said he didn't drink at all.

The two articles are contradictory. (Anthony Curtis - yes, Steve Wynn - no).

Just as "Did he buy tracer bullets?" has two different answers.

I'm not much of a conspiracy type person, and I sorta hate to bring up that subject.....but what are the chances this was some sort of a setup by the government (since there's always chatter about restricting gun laws after a big mass shooting)?

MaxPen, where you at? My money's on Obama and/or Hillary Clinton.

Quote: NokTang

Hello. I wasn't referring to member Mamat. Some others have typed out personal attacks and the usual name calling macho keyboard warrior stuff. The employment conditions (actually, only wages were mentioned, conditions are another topic) were mentioned to give context of the $100,000.usd which the killer sent to this so called "girlfriend" in the days leading up to his act. I remain convinced a Filipino "girlfriend" could drive a man to madness, even to this extent. Some Filipino customer service agents can drive others mad, they just don't end up being mass murderers. I specially recall when AOL was first to provide internet and farmed out their customer service to Clark Air Base in Angeles City, PI. My own next door neighbor in Georgia, an intelligent woman, was completely frustrated and out of her wits when I luckily intervened and told her it was a Filipino driving her nuts and helped her with what at the time was a simple fix to her AOL account. Rest assured, and be advised, they don't sell wind up dolls which steal in Manila for no reason.

No disrespect, but I think there are better boards for this particular shard of off topic.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/4310-modern-racism/14/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/free-speech-zone/6055-are-you-racist/7/

Quote: sammydv

No disrespect, but I think there are better boards for this particular shard of off topic.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/4310-modern-racism/14/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/free-speech-zone/6055-are-you-racist/7/

Agreed. Let me say that part of my worklife over my years was dealing directly with female managers and employees at call centers and employees located in the Phillippines and I have never had any issues with them. I also know several Filipino women who do not exhibit the behaviors that Noktang described.

While certain stereotypes of some nationals are apt and made for jest or humor (aka Indians shaking their head no when they mean yes, the rituals of arranged marriage among Indians, Chinese drivers, stupid Americans, beer-swilling eh saying Canadians, cowardly French people), I find Noktangs portrayal of the Filipino female to be wrong.

Teetotaler
Dypsomaniac

Shows how much people know about someone.

One network said "compulsive gambler" though there is no evidence of any compulsion and he can afford any losses.

The Sheriff had a SWAT policy of no perimeter, no containment just get in there an confront the danger. Some cops on scene noting the carnage commented that the only way to save live was to take out the shooter.

It seems the chance encounter with the security guard and the resultant team of four cops distracted him. He sprayed 200 rounds into the corridor and that is 200 rounds that did not go into the crowds. Indeed once his surveillance equipment indicated a response in the hallway, he stopped his shooting and did not resume it. So that routine open door alarm and the routine response to it saved lives for sure.

I just hope we get serum and hair testing of tryptophan and kynurenine.

What counts as a compulsive gambler? Even if he was ostensibly a comp hustler, that's a very unusual thing especially for someone who is independently wealthy. This guy could do anything he wanted to and then enjoy a steak dinner. However, he chose to sit at a machine and push buttons for hours to get a steak dinner for "free."

People here take it for granted that heavy gambling is normal behavior but it's not. There's something inherently a little crazy about gambling. I mean, you have businesses proudly advertising that they have machines where you put your money in and then get 98% of it back.

Having worked in casinos, I've found gamblers often have messed up thinking in general. Real big on blaming other people for their problems and stuff like that. I had gambled a little here and there for fun, and was interested in gambling beforehand. But, for example, the idea of getting mad at a dealer for results I didn't like would never have entered my mind if I didn't see degens do it. I think that's true of most people and most truly recreational gamblers. It's something about they psychology of heavy gamblers that makes this commonplace among them.

Quote: RS

Quote: that article

"He was a heavy drinker and that is what impressed upon on them,” Curtis said.

If I'm reading this right, Anthony Curtis is saying Paddock was a heavy drinker...?

I think another article, the guy who was being interviewed (I think Steve Wynn?), said he didn't drink at all.



Granted, people change over time and sometimes people who are alcoholics quit and sometimes people just start drinking because of their problems. It'd be interesting to know when Anthony Curtis's interactions were with Paddock (if any) as well as Steve Wynn's [assuming it was the Steve Wynn article that said Paddock didn't drink at all].

His hairdresser also said that he had come in smelling of booze and said he'd been up all night gambling. That's one reason I think he was falling apart.

Maybe he lost a bunch on some real estate deal, upped the gambling, etc. I think they'll probably be able to put together a pretty clear picture of his finances.

Quote: FleaStiff

Teetotaler
Dypsomaniac

Shows how much people know about someone.

One network said "compulsive gambler" though there is no evidence of any compulsion and he can afford any losses.

The Sheriff had a SWAT policy of no perimeter, no containment just get in there an confront the danger. Some cops on scene noting the carnage commented that the only way to save live was to take out the shooter.

It seems the chance encounter with the security guard and the resultant team of four cops distracted him. He sprayed 200 rounds into the corridor and that is 200 rounds that did not go into the crowds. Indeed once his surveillance equipment indicated a response in the hallway, he stopped his shooting and did not resume it. So that routine open door alarm and the routine response to it saved lives for sure.

First I've heard of him having surveillance equipment.

I've also heard different stories of the police response. Some that it took an hour for them to get to his room, which is way too long.

The policy you described is the correct one. The police are paid to risk their lives and this is a situation where they should not worry much about caution. But was that the approach they actually used?

It may have been the unarmed security guard who played the biggest role in stopping him.

Quote: Rigondeaux

First I've heard of him having surveillance equipment.

Reports of two cameras on room peep holes and camera hidden on Room Service food cart in hallway have been out for a week.

Quote: rxwine

It's hard to have sympathy for someone's 2nd amendment right to own 40 guns, even if you lowballed the staggering cost this would be awarded in a lawsuit, if any entity was able to be sued for the full cost. Damages which are likely to last for years for some people's medical costs. Not to mention other pain or suffering due to loss or mental trauma.

Do people who ordinarily complain about someone stealing your money (like the government) care about that, or is it just the fact it wasn't you in this case?

The true cost includes the negative effects on productivity for the nation, given an assumption that people who would have otherwise have been working on the day of the event and beyond were distracted by the event and unable to perform at full capacity.

I am both glad and saddened to see this much attention being given to mental illness. Glad, because it's a "real" answer. Saddened because, damn, that's a tough nut to crack.

I'm "mentally ill". Been so since at least 16, but I bet you could go all the way back to age 6 or 7. I don't have a neat and tidy diagnoses with a known plan of action. No family history or genetic markers. I'm just "broken" as a result of TBI. Sometimes it manifests itself into a sort of serene acceptance, a thought that "every thing is over, and that is OK". Sometimes it causes "phantoms", a feeling that someone is in the room, or voices I can hear just outside my door. Nothing nearing a delusion; I'm never compelled to believe that they're real. Mostly it's like a very low grade hallucination. Concerning, but not debilitating. Sometimes I am swept away but such a savage temerity it's as if i could carry the entire world on my back, be thankful for the opportunity, and be glad for it. And other times a rage so pure and intense I feel as though i could fling an entire college campus across the state by giving it no more than a directed thought.

This is one face (yay puns!) of mental illness. How would you treat it? How would you assign "risk value"? How would you determine how likely it is for me to engage in gun violence? Is there a way to?

I bring this up because I am the man you need to convince. I represent the opposition with whom you need a promise of solidarity. And i think one of the big areas of contention is not only that you wish to have judged that which is difficult if not impossible to judge, but you have appointed what I assume to be our worst enemy (I assume gunners have a higher propensity for .gov distrust than the average citizen) as the arbiters.

I'm not intending this post to be a challenge to you, or... I dunno, an attempt to disrupt your path. Just sharing the mindframe of someone with whom you're opposed but also need by your side. There are hurdles, here. Real hurdles. And I think it's these hurdles which people get caught up on, are unable to articulate, and simply fall to the old standby of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED", or manifest themselves in conspiracy-lite fashions such as "Registration leads to confiscation". The sometimes whackadoo catchphrases aren't always a product of low-think, sometimes it's just the best one knows how to do because the concept in their heart is too big for their brain to communicate.


My minor contention aside, I am HUGELY behind you on the subject of mental health, but my determination in this regard goes wayyy past the one, tiny issue of gun violence (and it is tiny, if you could see what's in my head). I truly feel that our society is damned. Maybe not in the Christian fashion, but damned all the same. The things we've created, that we pine for, that have lead us to such prosperity and growth, I feel, are in direct conflict with how we are made, in direct conflict with the spirit of humanity.

I could not possibly write out my philosophy on this page, so will have to use cliche. I hope folks can stifle the knee jerk and see through this to get what I'm trying to say. You see, we are made (by evolution or a creator matters not) to both have and relieve stress. It's all chemicals in the brain and body that produce feelings that make us avoid that which is harmful and acquire that which is helpful. Everyone here knows of seratonin, dopamine, and oxytocin, of cortisol and epinephrin. In a perfect world, we would still have stress. Life is stress. But in a perfect world, we use helpful and healthy ways to cope. A hug from mom. A long talk with a true friend. Completion of a long forgotten project. In today's world, we too often turn to that which gets the job done, which releases the feel good we need, but in ways that do not help. Booze releases seratonin. Cigarettes. Pinners. Glue in a bag. Tinder hookups. Facebook likes. Retweets. Reddit gold.

The problem is, this brand of feel good is fake. That Swipe Right sure feels good. That Swipe Right also has the same amount of Real Good that a fat bump of Columbian Marching Powder has. It, like the rest of our society, is "instant". It comes with no work, no effort, no heart. It is feel good that is undeserved, and therefore, does nothing for the spirit.

We are suffering from atrophy of the soul. When's the last time you went to a holiday at the family and had no phones present? When did you last go out with the boys/girls and no one updated their Instagram? When's the last time you put your heart out and just went up to that girl, awkwardness and all, and put yourself out there? When's the last time you sat with your mother, father, son, daughter, Best Friend Five Ever, and talked with no game on TV or social media app open?

A soul can only be filled by that which is Real, and Real takes time. Real takes investment. Real takes an effort to create, maintain, and protect. We're losing that. We've replaced Real with 5min rice, with next day delivery, with 24/7 connectivity. We don't even teach our kids what is real anymore. We teach that everyone gets a trophy, that they can be anything they want, that the world is their oyster if they just work hard, take their vitamins, and say their prayers. You can't even go to a doctor of medicine anymore. I know more about me and my illness than any one of the 14 billion people who have ever existed. Do I even get questioned? Is my knowledge ever requested? No. "Take this pill". An instant cure.

Is it any wonder we are all f#$%ed up?

I do not for a second believe that I could change the path on which this country, this world, is headed. I have lost any and all faith that my answer lies in some chemists' mortar and pestle. And I'd be a fool to believe that my beliefs are shared by any one person and we'll fix it together. But what I do know is, and I encourage you to check for yourself, that the one thing that all of these f#$%wad mass murdering monsters have in common is extreme self isolation. A feeling or sense that they are all alone in the world, and those rage episodes I began my post with, all come when I am at my most secluded.

Instant connectivity ruins our connections. A digital avatar has replaced a human face. URL's to a song replace a warm embrace. And our souls just continue to rot. Well, I'm done with it. I see what it's gotten me, and I see where I'd be headed without intervention. And that is not the life I choose.

I don't think the answer lies in a pill, or in the destruction and rebuilding of the land in which we live. I think all it takes is individual effort. It really is "the little things". You, boymimbo, and rxwine, and terapined, each and every one of you I've battled on the gun debate. But, both you and rx have shared my joy in my racing thread. terapined and I have no qualms discussing love of video games or kayaking. We've, as Babs so excellently pointed out, have not fallen to the defensive thought that because i feel I am right, the other person must be wrong. There's a girl I've got at work. She's the only person I talk to there. She's the only person in my life that, for much of the last year+, was there when I really needed someone. Despite that my distemper, my violent demeanor, my garb, my truck all made her assume I'd probably be one of those folks that call her "nigger" when her back was turned, she took a chance on me. And we've been best friends ever since. It's my real best friend, who despite having to weather all my fits and bouts with depression and the like, has never judged and never abandoned me. None of this costs a single red cent, but goddamn if it just might not have saved a life.

If you wait for all this to be fixed, you'll be waiting your whole life. YOU must be the fix. A held door, a genuine greeting, a simple word of kindness. That's all it takes to change the world. What if Paddock had been questioned about his rough appearance, his rough drinking, and found an open heart to speak with? What if the homophobes hadn't continued to harass Mateen? What if Dylan and Cleibold had a circle of like minded individuals with which to play and converse and grow?

As Bob Ross has taught us, "Everyone needs a friend". Life's a tempest; be the lighthouse.

Quote: RS

I'm not much of a conspiracy type person, and I sorta hate to bring up that subject.....but what are the chances this was some sort of a setup by the government (since there's always chatter about restricting gun laws after a big mass shooting)?

MaxPen, where you at? My money's on Obama and/or Hillary Clinton.

99.17% chance of some manipulation of the story by F.B.L'ies.

We need to ask why we haven't heard from Sheriff Lombardo since he insisted Paddock had help.

Why are there 9 Windows between the two broken ones and 11 rows of Windows above?

Why would a man with an escape plan shoot himself in the face 40+ minutes prior to his door being breached?

If you sit on the floor and eat a bullet will the revolver wind up above your head and your hands to your sides?

Steve Wynn slipped up in his interview by mentioning service elevators. Or did he?

Have you ever seen an automatic weaponized quad copter?

Face. Thank you for a amazing post. Post isn't the correct word for it but I am at a loss.
If people can't get something from your prose, then they are in worse shape than you are.

Thank you for touching my heart.

Quote: MaxPen

99.17% chance of some manipulation of the story by F.B.L'ies.

Okay

Quote:

We need to ask why we haven't heard from Sheriff Lombardo since he insisted Paddock had help.

We have, he's been on the news every other day. Might have to turn on the TV sometime.

Quote:

Why are there 9 Windows between the two broken ones and 11 rows of Windows above?

It was a huge corner suite and room. Lots of windows. How many floors is the hotel?

Quote:

Why would a man with an escape plan shoot himself in the face 40+ minutes prior to his door being breached?

And you know this how? Did he send you his itinerary sometime prior?

Quote:

If you sit on the floor and eat a bullet will the revolver wind up above your head and your hands to your sides?

who says he was sitting? Every human reacts differently to massive shock, some collapse, some flip all over. There is no set response to violent death.

Quote:

Steve Wynn slipped up in his interview by mentioning service elevators. Or did he?

Did he?

Quote:

Have you ever seen an automatic weaponized quad copter?

Why? Did they send one of those into the shooters room while no one was looking? Or did the shooter also control one while he was shooting out the window as well? What bearing does that have with the Vegas Shooter?

You have a media that is out of control and only reports to there political motivation. An FBI with no public trust and a gun man who did his homework. He wanted as many dead or injured as possible. He talked to himself, orders meals for 2, broke two windows out and got on prescribed medication. Started buying a lot of the long guns after the election and is a registered democrat voter in Florida. He was very smart because he understood they would not want to give his motive.

I'm really not interested in dishing my opinions on this matter to a board full of sheep.

Standby for continuous timeline changes and ever changing narratives.

The Unabomber was right.
Instagram has become reality. There is no "genuine" interaction anymore.

Solitude can morph into solitary confinement. And people in stir who do time in solitary get woefully warped.

As with alcoholism, the only real cure is a woman.

Quote: FleaStiff

The Unabomber was right.
Instagram has become reality. There is no "genuine" interaction anymore.

Solitude can morph into solitary confinement. And people in stir who do time in solitary get woefully warped.
As with alcoholism, the only real cure is a woman.

does renting one count?

Quote: MaxPen

Acoustic 'expert' who doesn't know about echos and reverberation and delay effects? Go figure.

Good thing this is off topic because I think people would have taken umbrage at this comment of yours

"I'm really not interested in dishing my opinions on this matter to a board full of sheep."

And I've never respected your my way or the highway rhetoric and arrogance which is better suited for the sensationalized and usually wrong daily mail forums and blog. But hey, that's just me. And I'm acting alone.

His lab tests food, not acoustic waves. He's no more an expert than I am. It's a shame people won't spend 5 minutes to vet something they see on internet.

I also believe the sheep comment could be considered a personal attack and I hope the admins will evaluate it.

Do you have to be chemist to understand mixing bleach and vinegar is a bad idea?

#BAAAAAAAH

Quote: MaxPen

Do you have to be chemist to understand mixing bleach and vinegar is a bad idea?

#BAAAAAAAH

Why, do you believe bleach and vinegar make a deadly chlorine gas and you can use it as a weapon?

Quote: Face

I'm "mentally ill". Been so since at least 16, but I bet you could go all the way back to age 6 or 7. I don't have a neat and tidy diagnoses with a known plan of action. No family history or genetic markers. I'm just "broken" as a result of TBI. Sometimes it manifests itself into a sort of serene acceptance, a thought that "every thing is over, and that is OK". Sometimes it causes "phantoms", a feeling that someone is in the room, or voices I can hear just outside my door. Nothing nearing a delusion; I'm never compelled to believe that they're real. Mostly it's like a very low grade hallucination. Concerning, but not debilitating. Sometimes I am swept away but such a savage temerity it's as if i could carry the entire world on my back, be thankful for the opportunity, and be glad for it. And other times a rage so pure and intense I feel as though i could fling an entire college campus across the state by giving it no more than a directed thought.

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm also "mentally ill".

In my case it comes from Dad's side of the family. Shows up in uncles & cousins.
I'm manic-depressive and was suicidally depressed for 12 years.
I spent months in three mental hospitals.

In my case, I think it was
(1) "spiritual crisis" - the values I grew up with from my parents...did not work for me, and I needed to find new ones.
(2) poor emotional skills - unable to cope with the "dark night of the soul"
(3) my body chemistry allows me to be "high for months", and "low for years". Most people's bodies bring them back to center-line.

Unlike some manic-depressives, I haven't had an "episode" in 27 years.
I can still feel what's happening in my body & mind, but I guess I've learned other ways to handle manic or depression without going into "episodes".

Quote: sammydv

Why, do you believe bleach and vinegar make a deadly chlorine gas and you can use it as a weapon?

No....In general though you shouldn't mix anything with bleach but water.

Quote: mamat

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm also "mentally ill".

In my case it comes from Dad's side of the family. Shows up in uncles & cousins.
I'm manic-depressive and was suicidally depressed for 12 years.
I spent months in three mental hospitals.

In my case, I think it was
(1) "spiritual crisis" - the values I grew up with from my parents...did not work for me, and I needed to find new ones.
(2) poor emotional skills - unable to cope with the "dark night of the soul"
(3) my body chemistry allows me to be "high for months", and "low for years". Most people's bodies bring them back to center-line.

Unlike some manic-depressives, I haven't had an "episode" in 27 years.
I can still feel what's happening in my body & mind, but I guess I've learned other ways to handle manic or depression without going into "episodes".

This is all very fascinating and raw and perhaps should have it's own thread somehow. But in regards to the vegas shooter and mental issues, From my experience working in places I have and with manic depressive and other diseases of the mind, I've felt that the sicknesses you describe are more internal with your own lonely type struggles.

If so, at what point does it cross over into the outside world where one starts to react with others and strangers in dangerous ways? Would you think there would be signs? As a manic-depressive yourself, do you think you would be better able to see signs of depression and potential destructive behavior in others?

I know being around people with mental handicaps, watching and helping them in longer time frames, I see the same routines every day and I'm afraid I have become desensitized to the familiar. I may be missing signals I should be catching. Do you think friends and girlfriends closest to Paddock didn't see any subtle changes in him? One of my best friends is manic depressive, bi-polar amongst other things but looking and talking to him for a while one would not know it.
It's only if you start asking questions about religion does his illness show itself. He speaks to God, talks in code etc etc. I've pulled him in off his roof a few times as he was attempting to speak to God and walk to him. But I saw signs of his demons early on and was one of the people who convinced him to seek whatever 'professional' advice other than himself to talk to. He too controls himself admirably.

Maybe people missed the signs with Paddock. It was a devastating error if so.