Neutrino
Neutrino
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September 2nd, 2017 at 12:34:59 PM permalink
Tl;dr The Police at my sister's high school routinely does something that would get them sued for millions if it happened in a casino.


Hi Everyone.

I'm sure everyone here knows that, if a casino demands your ID and you refuse, and then they get the police to come and demand your ID, and get your ID from the police afterward. That is SUPER illegal and will get the casino a huge fine.

And I'm also sure everyone here knows that, if a casino caught you breaking a rule but it's still legal, they can not call the police to arrest you or abuse you in any other way even though it breaks internal casino rules. As long as it's legal. For example, They can not do this for card counting, but they can do this for stealing chips.

Well, very similar abuses to this recently happened to my sister and several of her classmates at her high school...



I am under the impression that, if the police is paid by someone to be at a certain place. The police must NOT act in that person or entity's interest. The police must enforce the law, NOT that entity's internal policies. Because the police can only enforce state law and not internal rules, this is why the police can arrest for chip stealing but not for card counting at a casino.

My little sister goes to my local high school. Not too long ago the anti-gun public school board implemented a new policy that all students must wear school IDs at all times. Supposedly because "it somehow magically protects us from school shooters". Anyway there are many problems with this and the school charges $10 for each replacement ID and rumor goes each public school each month makes $500 from just making plastic replacement IDs. This and many other problems with the ID ended up pissing up all students and all teachers, from both sides of political spectrum regardless of their positions on gun control.

A week ago, something major happened.

About 20 students, my sister included, protested the policy by refusing to bring their IDs. The school demanded their IDs and was refused by the students. After a few minutes of confrontation, the principal got the SRO involved. The SRO, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_resource_officer, is a cop who works for the school. He is fully armed and always carries a concealed weapon.

The SRO started to target the 3 leaders of the protest including my sister. He demanded school ID from them, they refused. Then he demanded their driver's license from them, and they refused again. He said they must show their driver license because he is the state police. If they don't they will go to jail. In this process, he threatened all 20 of them with many other threats (I'll talk about that next). When he obtained the IDs from the protesting students, he passed the government IDs to the principal and the principal immediately went to make them replacement school IDs, and obviously, charged them $10 each to their school accounts.

That was what happened. But the process, was long and not pretty. The SRO repeatedly threatened the students with various charges. Such as "disturbance of peace", "obstruction of justice". That just makes me sick. The most ridiculous threat was that, the SRO targeted an Asian-American student with last name "Qin". He asked the student what his last name was and the student eventually gave in and said "Qin", so the SRO said "Chen?" and he said "yes". Later when the SRO received his ID he saw it was Qin and threatened to charge the student with lying to a police officer. The SRO insisted it should be pronounced like "Keen" because that's how the principal pronounces it, and because he said "Qin" and it sounded nothing like how it's spelled it was lying, and there was an intent to mislead the officer on his real name. Keep in mind this is a white cop telling a Chinese-American student how HIS name should be pronounced in HIS Asian language. You be the judge, https://translate.google.com/#en/zh-CN/Qin, click on the sound button to hear how it's pronounced in Chinese. I honestly think there may even be a case for racial discrimination here on the officer to be honest.



I was just so shocked how that can be legally allowed in a school. And I am very proud of my sister for doing her best to stand up to such abuse of power. Just imagine if this happened in a casino... The casino calls the cops on you and the cops demand your ID by threatening you with charges for being non-cooperative. Then the cop hands the ID to the casino security and says "go make this guy a replacement player's card and charge him for it"


I wonder if Bob Nersesian might think the school could be sued for millions here?
billryan
billryan
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September 2nd, 2017 at 1:02:29 PM permalink
A school is not a casino. In most places, a School Resource Officer is a full fledged police officer, not a security guard.
Students, especially minors, in a school do not have the same rights as adults in a casino.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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September 2nd, 2017 at 1:47:40 PM permalink
In most jurisdictions, your person anything you bring on school property (K-12, not colleges) is subject to a search. No warrant or probable cause required.
ahiromu
ahiromu
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September 2nd, 2017 at 2:08:10 PM permalink
High school students have zero rights while on campus. Deservedly so, in most situations.

I side with the students, but don't think it's unreasonable, in theory. I would have advised them to go an official route, school board/PTA.

Admin should have just let them protest, I guarantee you this won't help their cause with the student population AT ALL.
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billryan
billryan
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September 2nd, 2017 at 2:12:59 PM permalink
By the way, this is nothing new. Hofstra required everyone on campus to have a school issued id on them at all times and to present it to any school official( including security guards) upon demand. When I transferred, they wouldn't forward my transcripts until I surrendered it. That was back when Reagan was President, and a college, not a high school.
The idea of an officer challenging a student on how his name is pronounced is a bit bizarre, but the OP chose to bury the lead.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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September 2nd, 2017 at 2:13:18 PM permalink
Unfortunately in certain states including in non native casinos patrons have little to no recourse for comparable behavior in casinos. States without punitive damages officers feel empowered to do as they please, particularly one down south with no punitive damages, Louisiana. Bullying and threatening are common tactics.
Last edited by: mcallister3200 on Sep 2, 2017
Mission146
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Mission146 
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September 2nd, 2017 at 4:17:33 PM permalink
State laws vary, of course, when mentioned:

1.) I am actually a little surprised that this is a new implementation at any High School. We had ID's when I was in school, early 2000's. It doesn't just protect from school shooters, it protects from anyone not authorized to be there being there. When we're talking about High School, it can be difficult to determine a student from a young-looking adult (or student from another school) who has no business being there.

At any school size, but especially for bigger schools, it stands to reason that not every staff member is going to recognize every student (or employee) as someone who should be there, hence ID's.

I don't remember if our ID's had our pictures, I think so, but I'm not 100%.

2.) Trespassing is illegal and there are laws against it. If someone is at the school who is not a student or is otherwise authorized to be there, that person is trespassing if asked to leave and the person refuses. The cop may be viewed as enforcing this law. The ID verifies identity, which verifies authorization to be there which verifies the person is not trespassing.

3.) Schools are permitted to have their own policies which may or may not have anything to do with laws as a condition of being at the school, dress codes are another example. There are disciplinary measures in place for those who violate these rules, up to and including expulsion/suspension.

4.) The cop got the ID's to provide to the principal to make proper school ID's, as a matter of school policy. Did the cop act according to the letter of the law? Maybe, maybe not. One alternative, though, would have been to demand the students to either present ID or leave the school. That would be perfectly within the law. Having been commanded to leave the school (or show ID) if the kids were to refuse, they would be defiantly trespassing. Now you're back into actual laws.

5.) Attendance of a physical school is optional in most cases, though education is often mandatory to a certain age. If the parents agree with the students that any school policies are unjustly invasive, then the parents have the option of enrolling the kids in a private school or home schooling them. There are multiple home schooling online regimens (most states) that will get the student a High School diploma issued either by the state or school district.

In short, if the kids don't like it, they don't have to be there.

6.) I agree with you as to the treatment of Mr. Qin, provided sufficient evidence, there should be some disciplinary for that as relates the officer.

7.) Really, they should have best been ordered to either present ID or leave the school immediately. They would then be marked as absent. I think that would have been the best way to go. If you tell them to show the ID or leave, and they refuse to do either, then you undeniably have them for trespass.

Much like a casino, they can demand you leave whenever they want to. Things can get hairy if it comes to cashing chips, of course, but the school isn't holding up anyone's money, here.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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Mission146 
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September 2nd, 2017 at 4:19:06 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu


Admin should have just let them protest, I guarantee you this won't help their cause with the student population AT ALL.



Who the Hell cares? It's not a customer service oriented establishment. Why remove what few and soft authoritative teeth the school system has remaining?
Vultures can't be choosers.
billryan
billryan
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September 2nd, 2017 at 4:49:25 PM permalink
In regards to point #7, if a child is supposed to be in school, I don't think the staff can just order them to leave. Schools must have some responsibility for kids in their care. Suppose the kid goes out and gets hit by a car when he is supposed to be in school. Parents put their faith in a school system that picks up their kids and drops them off.
Not a teacher, nor have I been the parent of a student for many years but I think there must be some responsibility.
Send them to detention, or an in school suspension, not just let them go wander wherever.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
RS
RS
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September 2nd, 2017 at 5:09:53 PM permalink
What happens if there's a kid at a school who does not belong to that school? If he can't show ID, would they ask him to leave? Or do they keep him there because he might be a student?

If they ask him to leave but he is a student there, then the school is in trouble for not being responsible for their student(s). If they require him to stay but he is not a student, they don't have any authority over him (I think)....would this not be kidnapping?


I don't see a problem with being required to show ID or else vacate the property. Although I'd amend it to being required to show ID if you're in a place where or when you're possibly not supposed to be -- walking around during class time, that type of thing.
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