Can Men & Women Get Along?
September 26th, 2010 at 3:18:39 PM
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I'm not sure. I know very few that do. In fact, I know 2 men who's wives are permanently mad at them. I know other men who have hobbies and spend 95% of their time in the basement. My brother knows a guy who picks up a six pack and a pizza on the way home from work and goes right to his rec room in the basement and never even see's his family. Charleston Heston said the secret to marriage is to say "I'm sorry honey, I was wrong" about 10 times a day. And even then its touch and go. The things women can get mad about never ceases to astound me. I've found that the less you say to them, the better off you are. Lets face it, they're really just a younger version of our mothers and they have even more power over us than she did. I really think that if I had a choice of being stuck on an island with a man or a woman, I'd take a hetro guy over a woman. At least there would be peace and quiet..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 3:36:02 PM
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wow, you and your wife had a fight, right? [g]
well I personally think the first thing to realize is that humans have been forced into monogamy, the right move for us, but it fights what was natural to our ape ancestors. Birds are monogamous. Deer, goats, herd types in general have harems. Primates have at least some instinct for the latter route, sometimes as in the early Mormon Church, and some sects today, this is acted out..
Ideally, I think you do *not* marry your idealized Lover. You have a different relationship with your spouse, although sex should be part of the picture.
my 2 cents
well I personally think the first thing to realize is that humans have been forced into monogamy, the right move for us, but it fights what was natural to our ape ancestors. Birds are monogamous. Deer, goats, herd types in general have harems. Primates have at least some instinct for the latter route, sometimes as in the early Mormon Church, and some sects today, this is acted out..
Ideally, I think you do *not* marry your idealized Lover. You have a different relationship with your spouse, although sex should be part of the picture.
my 2 cents
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 26th, 2010 at 3:49:24 PM
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Quote: odiousgambit...our ape ancestors.
Speak for yourself.
I'm going with the Adam & Eve magic spell version.
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
September 26th, 2010 at 4:09:02 PM
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Quote: EvenBobwho's wives....hetro
Many marital disagreements are caused by lack of spelling ability.
Men and women are fundamentally different and fundamentally compatible. Any truly reciprocal relationship involves compromise from both parties. I've observed that most "permanently mad" states are a result of the husband refusing to modify his behavior in any way whatsoever from when he was single. Often, this involves staying a complete slob, rather than picking up after himself, because after all, he has a live-in free maid; why should he be neat and/or clean?
Another reason such conflicts are usually the husband's fault is that women are culturally and dispositionally inclined to resolve rather than exacerbate conflict. This means that they yield more than men do, even when they shouldn't. The state of war that exists in certain households is often the result of the wife's (incorrectly) allowing her husband to be a boor, and then, after his behavior becomes intolerable, snapping at last.
If a man truly can't understand what makes a woman mad, then he's not only unperceptive, but clueless as well. It actually doesn't take a genius to figure out what is wrong: after all, a man can simply ASK, if he can't divine it any other way. Women are usually implicit rather than explicit in their emotional cues, and part of what irritates them about men is that they think that they shouldn't HAVE to blurt out exactly what is bothering them; if we were paying any attention to their feelings, we should be able to figure it out. Men, in turn, see that as unfair.
The assertion, "the less you say to them, the better off you are" pretty much sums up what is wrong with male-female relations. Not discussing the source of conflicts exacerbates and prolongs those conflicts. Men may be reluctant to discuss anything but motorcycles and football, but the tension that is prolonged by their fear of talking with their spouses is THEIR fault. Mr. Six-Pack-and-Pizza is a coward.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 4:12:47 PM
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Many disagree with me on this, but I'm of the general opinion that a heterosexual man and woman can't be just friends. If it were not for the sexual compatibility, we wouldn't get along at all.
One thing I've always wondered if there is one person in a lesbian relationship who takes the scapegoat roll. Speaking only for my family, everything that goes wrong in our house is my fault. Easier to just accept it than fight it.
One thing I've always wondered if there is one person in a lesbian relationship who takes the scapegoat roll. Speaking only for my family, everything that goes wrong in our house is my fault. Easier to just accept it than fight it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 26th, 2010 at 4:21:03 PM
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Quote: WizardMany disagree with me on this, but I'm of the general opinion that a heterosexual man and woman can't be just friends. If it were not for the sexual compatibility, we wouldn't get along at all.
One thing I've always wondered if there is one person in a lesbian relationship who takes the scapegoat roll. Speaking only for my family, everything that goes wrong in our house is my fault. Easier to just accept it than fight it.
That assertion (that men and women "can't" be friends) seems far too strong to be defensible. I know literally dozens of couples who are each others' best friends. I also know many persons, including myself, who have good friends of the opposite sex.
I reiterate my impression that many couples' incompatibility is caused by the man's perception that he need not modify his behavior in the slightest, just because he's sharing a household with a woman. And of course, the reason for such incompatibility is always dismissed as "she's a ------ (insert insult) bitch/pain in the ass/etc." NEVER is it the man's fault.
I think the above is a lingering cultural artifact from the not-so-distant days when women were supposed to cook, clean, make babies, and otherwise shut the fuck up. A LOT of men still resent that women have largely broken free of that role.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 4:24:19 PM
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Quote: WizardMany disagree with me on this, but I'm of the general opinion that a heterosexual man and woman can't be just friends. If it were not for the sexual compatibility, we wouldn't get along at all.
Three of my best friends are female, and I've lived with two of them, in completely platonic relationships. Actually I live with one of them right now.
Quote:One thing I've always wondered if there is one person in a lesbian relationship who takes the scapegoat roll. Speaking only for my family, everything that goes wrong in our house is my fault. Easier to just accept it than fight it.
Why does there need to be a scapegoat in a two person relationship, regardless of the sexes of those involved. I know that defining a lesbian relationship in the traditional 'male/female' roles is a waste of time. Actually defining most relationships in those terms in a waste of time, if you want to understand it...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 26th, 2010 at 4:25:29 PM
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Quote: mkl654321
The assertion, "the less you say to them, the better off you are" pretty much sums up what is wrong with male-female relations.
Wrong. It avoids conflicts. Its something you learn the hard way. Let her talk, act like you care and understand, and say as little as possible. All women want is to talk anyway, they don't really want your input unless they ask for it. Its something I've heard Dr Laura say over and over and its a hard lesson to learn. Men are problem solvers and women just like to vent. If I just listen (or pretend to) it will all get resolved on its own.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 4:30:12 PM
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Quote: WizardSpeaking only for my family, everything that goes wrong in our house is my fault. Easier to just accept it than fight it.
Yup. When something goes wrong and it really is my wifes fault, I slip away and pretend it never happened. Other than that, everything else is my fault, usually because I didn't do something to prevent whatever went wrong. Assigning blame seems to be paramount, rather than just moving on. As Heston said "I'm sorry, honey, its my fault" is what saves the day.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 4:42:01 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAll women want is to talk anyway, they don't really want your input unless they ask for it.
Yet another assertion that is emblematic of what is wrong with male-female relationships. (And a patronizing, self-serving, and full-of-crap assertion, at that.)
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 4:43:24 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAs Heston said "I'm sorry, honey, its my fault" is what saves the day.
Actually, it just shoves the problem over the event horizon. If men weren't so deathly scared to talk about emotions and feelings, they wouldn't have to do the Heston.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 4:53:09 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Yet another assertion that is emblematic of what is wrong with male-female relationships. (And a patronizing, self-serving, and full-of-crap assertion, at that.)
Are you married? You talk like a single guy who doesn't go out much. Its the god's truth, and its been told to my face, that women just want to vent, they don't want or need or even like your opinion. I know for a fact its true and I've heard professional's say it. But you go right ahead and keep trying to 'communicate', its your time to waste.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 5:01:27 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Actually, it just shoves the problem over the event horizon. If men weren't so deathly scared to talk about emotions and feelings, they wouldn't have to do the Heston.
So you actually think that every time a problem comes up, the woman actually wants you to sit down and take her hand get emotional and talk it through? Good god, what planet do you live on. Most women I know are not happy. They don't like their jobs, their appearance, or sometimes, their husbands. They get mad because they're frustrated and emotional people, and its their way of letting off steam. Here is an honest to god true story. I was madly in love decades ago in my early 20's and I had ideas just like MKL. I wanted to talk about everything with this girl, and I tried to. I thought it was going great and she broke it off with me because I was TOO attentive, because I wouldn't let her vent, I always had to 'talk' about it. Women don't want that, they just want to yell and get it out of their system. And stay out of the way. Also, the relationship gets very one sided, everything is about her all the time. Who needs that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 5:05:00 PM
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Quote: EvenBobMost women I know are not happy.
Implied correlation between the fact that you know them and the "fact" that they're not happy. Hmmmmmm......
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 5:18:11 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Implied correlation between the fact that you know them and the "fact" that they're not happy. Hmmmmmm......
Yup, most of them aren't happy, especially in their marriages. The younger ones seem happy, and the husbands don't. Mostly they look like frightened deer who get caught in the headlights. Its quite amusing.
Years ago at family get togethers I would position myself so I could hear what the women were talking about in the dining room. I soon realized they weren't talking as much as exchanging information with each other. Opinions were never given or asked for. They were just comparing notes so they could feel better about themselves. This taught me how to deal with my wife. Just listen and shut the hell up. She really doesn't want my input and if she does, she's not shy about asking for it. And she doesn't want to hear about my problems, I'm a man and am supposed to deal with them myself. Women really don't like whiney men, they consider them weak and ineffectual.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 5:39:01 PM
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The animal (insect) world makes it all clear
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/mantis1.asp
So, basically, your head, may or may not be chewed off in any relationship on any given day depending on various indeterminate circumstances.
Quote:In a research project whose results were published in the journal Animal Behaviour in 1984, entomologists Eckehard Liske and W. Jackson Davis made videotapes of the sex lives of thirty pairs of praying mantises. They discovered that mantises engage in elaborate posturing rituals before mating, but not one of the thirty males had his head eaten during the mating process. They also noted that other scientists had observed the same thing: Although female mantises sometimes ate their mates, the deadly act by no means occurred in every case. The behavior appeared to be influenced by captivity: Female mantises were either jarred into unusually aggressive behavior by the unusual laboratory conditions, or they were simply not fed enough by their keepers.
Yes, the female praying mantis does sometimes eat her mate. In fact, male mantises will often offer themselves up as food to the female during the mating process, and from a biological standpoint this action makes sense: There's no point to mating with a female who might die from a lack of food before she can lay her eggs and pass the father's genes onto the next generation. This doesn't happen all the time, however, and its frequency of occurrence and the reasons for it are still a subject a debate within the entomological world.
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/mantis1.asp
So, basically, your head, may or may not be chewed off in any relationship on any given day depending on various indeterminate circumstances.
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 26th, 2010 at 6:13:52 PM
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Quote: rxwine
So, basically, your head, may or may not be chewed off in any relationship on any given day depending on various indeterminate circumstances.
The longer you're in a relationship, the more you learn about saving your head. I have a nephew who's 28 and has managed to stay unmarried, with my advice. All he see's around him are friends and relatives who married young, and are now either divorced or close to it. If he can make it to 30, there might be a chance for him.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 6:42:18 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Yet another assertion that is emblematic of what is wrong with male-female relationships. (And a patronizing, self-serving, and full-of-crap assertion, at that.)
If you ever read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" the author definitely asserts that men should just listen, and not leap into "problem-solver" mode. Note, though, that attentive listening is required.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 26th, 2010 at 7:10:39 PM
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Quote: mkl654321That assertion (that men and women "can't" be friends) seems far too strong to be defensible. I know literally dozens of couples who are each others' best friends. I also know many persons, including myself, who have good friends of the opposite sex.
I agree that couples are supposed to be good friends. I'm trying to argue the other way, that if there were a true friendship first, then becoming a couple would be the natural outcome. I think those already married are playing with fire to develop close friendships with the opposite sex.
Let me also be clear about what I mean by a friend. I don't mean somebody you get along with due to circumstances that force you together, like being roommates or working together. I've been friendly with lots of women like that. Rather I mean somebody you genuinely enjoy sacrificing your free time to spend time with. If such a person was such a good friend, then I think a romantic attachment would naturally form.
I'm also not saying anybody else here is not truthful about the experiences they posted. Maybe it just comes down to defining the word friend differently.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 26th, 2010 at 7:13:04 PM
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I'm in the "women generally just want to vent" camp. BUT ... it's not that way every time, sometimes there is a problem to be sovled. So I think that "I'll just smile and nod" is a recipe for eventual disaster.
We all know that women and men are different. I would think that any woman who truly thinks of her man first would be slow to boil over when the man goes into problem-solver mode. If she never tells him and just explodes every time he tries (from his point of view) to help, then I think you find yourself in just-mile-and-nod mode, which isn't good for anyone. Believe it or not, gals, we can't read minds and if you expect us to, then that is your problem.
As always, there's a need for communicating.
PS - When I first saw Cosmos about, oh, 20 or so years ago, I thought it was just mind-blowing. Now, outside of some interesting science, Sagan just seems like some arrogant, wanna-be-avuncular con artist: "We're a curious species, in our adolescence." What, are you outside of the species, some self-proclaimed super-human, here to save us? Puh - LEEZ!
We all know that women and men are different. I would think that any woman who truly thinks of her man first would be slow to boil over when the man goes into problem-solver mode. If she never tells him and just explodes every time he tries (from his point of view) to help, then I think you find yourself in just-mile-and-nod mode, which isn't good for anyone. Believe it or not, gals, we can't read minds and if you expect us to, then that is your problem.
As always, there's a need for communicating.
PS - When I first saw Cosmos about, oh, 20 or so years ago, I thought it was just mind-blowing. Now, outside of some interesting science, Sagan just seems like some arrogant, wanna-be-avuncular con artist: "We're a curious species, in our adolescence." What, are you outside of the species, some self-proclaimed super-human, here to save us? Puh - LEEZ!
September 26th, 2010 at 7:20:17 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitIf you ever read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" the author definitely asserts that men should just listen, and not leap into "problem-solver" mode. Note, though, that attentive listening is required.
You're right, I haven't thought about that book in years. Just watch how women react to each other, thats basically how they want you to react to them. Men are different. When a male friend tells me a story, he wants my opinion and input, thats why he's taking the time.
>>I agree that couples are supposed to be good friends.>>
Yes, but I don't want my wife to be my best friend. Thats too many eggs in one basket, she'll have a hard time delivering on it. Marriage is tough enough as it is. One of my brothers is 55 and never been married and doesn't miss it in the least. He has every toy his heart desires and answers to absolutely nobody. Most of the married men his age are so jealous they can hardly stand it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 7:29:05 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
PS - When I first saw Cosmos about, oh, 20 or so years ago, I thought it was just mind-blowing. Now, outside of some interesting science, Sagan just seems like some arrogant, wanna-be-avuncular con artist: "We're a curious species, in our adolescence." What, are you outside of the species, some self-proclaimed super-human, here to save us? Puh - LEEZ!
Interesting, I never liked Carl Sagan. Too pompous. But you couldn't say that in the 80's for fear of being stoned in the public square. I never liked Deepak Chopra for the same reason.
“Whatever relationships you have attracted in your life at this moment, are precisely the ones you need in your life at this moment. There is a hidden meaning behind all events, and this hidden meaning is serving your own evolution.”
Bah, bleah, humbug. There's no hidden meaning in anything, the mystics love to say crap like this because it makes them sound superior.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 8:48:18 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
As always, there's a need for communicating.
Which an attitude of "women just like to bitch, so either say 'yes, dear' or ignore them altogether" is unlikely to bring about.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 8:56:39 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Which an attitude of "women just like to bitch, so either say 'yes, dear' or ignore them altogether" is unlikely to bring about.
Sigmund Freud said 'what does a woman want'. I'll tell you what they want. They want everything their way 95% of the time, and if they don't get it, they have endless ways to make you regret it. The longer you spend with them, the more of your will gets eroded away and eventually you just accept the inevitable. This is called a 'happy marriage'.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 8:57:08 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitIf you ever read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" the author definitely asserts that men should just listen, and not leap into "problem-solver" mode. Note, though, that attentive listening is required.
Well, that book was pop-psychology claptrap, but the basic point you mention had some validity. However, listening alone won't do it--not even attentive listening. If an actual dialogue doesn't take place, eventually the woman will feel patronized. Women are not so dumb that they won't recognize the just-smile-and-nod approach for what it is.
The element of validity is that women sometimes don't present a problem with the goal of obtaining a solution, and that men, on the other hand, always want to offer a solution whenever a problem is articulated. However, that is a grossly inaccurate oversimplification. It would certainly not be the case very often when a wife is complaining to her husband about something HE has done, or failed to do. You leave your half-smoked cigars all over the house, and when she complains about it, she isn't merely looking for attentive sympathy.
I also think that the cognitive differences between men and women are greatly overstated. That book had a LOT to do with that "common wisdom" being so prevalent. Whatever differences do exist, in fact, are mostly externally imposed social norms rather than genetically programmed cognitive elements.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 9:01:24 PM
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Quote: mkl654321If an actual dialogue doesn't take place, eventually the woman will feel patronized.
And you think they don't like this? You think women don't enjoy controlling the men in their lives? Changing them, making them behave, training them. Have you EVER been in a relationship with a woman?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 9:02:16 PM
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Quote: mkl654321
Which an attitude of "women just like to bitch, so either say 'yes, dear' or ignore them altogether" is unlikely to bring about.>>>
Sigmund Freud said 'what does a woman want'. I'll tell you what they want. They want everything their way 95% of the time, and if they don't get it, they have endless ways to make you regret it. The longer you spend with them, the more of your will gets eroded away and eventually you just accept the inevitable. This is called a 'happy marriage'.
Which an attitude of "women just like to bitch, so either say 'yes, dear' or ignore them altogether" is unlikely to bring about.>>>
Sigmund Freud said 'what does a woman want'. I'll tell you what they want. They want everything their way 95% of the time, and if they don't get it, they have endless ways to make you regret it. The longer you spend with them, the more of your will gets eroded away and eventually you just accept the inevitable. This is called a 'happy marriage'.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 9:03:12 PM
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Quote: EvenBobSigmund Freud said 'what does a woman want'. I'll tell you what they want. They want everything their way 95% of the time, and if they don't get it, they have endless ways to make you regret it. The longer you spend with them, the more of your will gets eroded away and eventually you just accept the inevitable. This is called a 'happy marriage'.
You must be a real hit with the ladies.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 9:04:46 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAnd you think they don't like this? You think women don't enjoy controlling the men in their lives? Changing them, making them behave, training them. Have you EVER been in a relationship with a woman?
Like being patronized? No, don't think they like that at all.
I have been, and am currently in, relationships with women, none of which have been anything like you describe.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 9:14:57 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Like being patronized? No, don't think they like that at all.
I have been, and am currently in, relationships with women, none of which have been anything like you describe.
I've been sitting here thinking of all the couples I've known since they were young and are still married. Without question, the men who didn't give in to being manipulated and changed and controlled by the women, all have miserable marriages. They either fight all the time or don't speak at all. The men just don't get it. The old saying 'She that must be obeyed' isn't just a quaint saying, its the damned truth. You can choose to do what you like, and she will choose to punish you for it. My 23 year old niece just got married last year. Gorgeous girl and hell on wheels. You do not get in her way. She kept looking and found the perfect guy for her. Casper Milquetoast has nothing on this guy. She says jump and he literally JUMPS! He came pre-trained, no opinions, rarely speaks, hangs at her side like a body slave. The women all think they have a beautiful relationship. They make me want to gag.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 10:39:19 PM
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Whats interesting is that in every survey thru the decades that asked the question 'Will Scarlett get Rhett back', the women always say yes and the men HELL NO. Scarlett was a mean, bitchy, scheming, manipulative, selfish woman. When I saw GWTW in my early 20's, she scared me to death. But the women see nothing wrong with her, they relate to her, thats the way most of them really are inside. Men are fools, they believe all the propaganda about women, usually propogated by naive men who have unrealistic female characters in books and movies.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 11:15:08 PM
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Fuck me, it's like the 80's, 90' and 2000's never happened and I'm looking in at the set of Married with Children.
EvenBob's experience is so far from my own, it's like he's from another country. Oh, wait... :)
EvenBob's experience is so far from my own, it's like he's from another country. Oh, wait... :)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 26th, 2010 at 11:27:21 PM
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Quote: thecesspitFuck me, it's like the 80's, 90' and 2000's never happened and I'm looking in at the set of Married with Children.
EvenBob's experience is so far from my own, it's like he's from another country. Oh, wait... :)
I was being more reminded of All In the Family (guess who), but on second thought, I think you're spot on.
And EvenBob is, unfortunately, very much from this country. It's the CENTURY he's from that seems so foreign (and I DON'T mean the 20th).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 11:31:27 PM
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This country in your terms isn't my country (either or birth or emigration :). I am quite willing to believe that there is often a bigger cultural difference between both countries and environments than I would at first assume. Anyways, he can talk about how it is in the REAL world, but his how it is differs a world from mine (and my parents, siblings, relations and friends) that I doubt the overall truthiness.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 26th, 2010 at 11:37:15 PM
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Quote: thecesspittruthiness.
Careful, EvenBob will take you to task for making up words. Even though it's a Colbertism (and therefore valid).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 1:07:30 AM
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Quote: thecesspitAnyways, he can talk about how it is in the REAL world, but his how it is differs a world from mine (and my parents, siblings, relations and friends) that I doubt the overall truthiness.
Wow, please give details from The Land of OZ. Are you a Mormon? Or some other religious zealot? Where women are subservient to men? Does your wife wear a burka, perhaps?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 27th, 2010 at 2:20:29 AM
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The way this thread is going, chances of any bonus 'LOLs' look pretty remote.
Getting back to the original question, there's an old joke that helps explain the gender gap.
Why do women close their eyes during sex?
Because they hate to see a man have a good time.
Getting back to the original question, there's an old joke that helps explain the gender gap.
Why do women close their eyes during sex?
Because they hate to see a man have a good time.
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
September 27th, 2010 at 2:45:14 AM
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Quote: EvenBobWhats interesting is that in every survey thru the decades that asked the question 'Will Scarlett get Rhett back', the women always say yes and the men HELL NO.
I didn't know anybody did a survey on that. It was something I said in the The Ultimate Chick Flick thread.
Quote: WizardWhat makes for a good question, assuming the movie were real life, would Scarlett and Rhett have ever gotten back together? Ask a woman and you usually get a "yes." Ask a man and you'll get a "hell no!"
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 27th, 2010 at 9:32:37 AM
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Quote: EvenBobWow, please give details from The Land of OZ. Are you a Mormon? Or some other religious zealot? Where women are subservient to men? Does your wife wear a burka, perhaps?
No, I my Land of Oz (the UK and Canada) people seem to communicate, the man is neither a distant fool who ignores or pays lip service to his partner OR a hard-arse who whips his wife and makes her wear a burka.
Really, Bob, can you not imagine that your life may not be true for everyone else?
I do actually agree with one thing, that often people try to be a fixer when all the ranter wants is someone to listen. But active listening, not just nodding and hoping they'll stop talking so they can go back to their six pack and football game. That point is very true. I'm just sorry that you heard it and then went a very different way with it.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 27th, 2010 at 10:02:42 AM
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Quote: mkl654321It's the CENTURY he's from that seems so foreign (and I DON'T mean the 20th).
20th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
The 20th century of the Common Era began on January 1, 1901 and ended on December 31, 2000. In contrast to the earlier centuries, one of the most prominent...
Quote: mkl654321Even though it's a Colbertism (and therefore valid).
Colbertism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Colbertism is an economic and political doctrine of the seventeenth century, created by Jean-Baptiste Colbert, the French minister of finance under Louis XIV. Colbertism is a variant of mercantilism and is more a collection of economical practices than a true current of economic thought.
Colbert's central principle was that the wealth and the economy of France should serve the state. Drawing on the ideas of mercantilism, he believed state intervention was needed to secure the largest part of limited resources. To accumulate gold, a country always had to sell more goods abroad than it bought. Colbert sought to build a French economy that sold abroad and bought nothing back.
Colbertism from the "Urban Dictionary":
The display of irrational dislike for Canada and Canadians, normally the result of an upbringing by rednecks in the backwoods of South Carolina.
"After Canada refused to believe the USA's fake rationale for invading Iraq, many ignorant Americans, like Mike Judge caught a bad case of Colbertism, which has been subsequently unshakable by common sense and truth."
Why bet at all, if you can be sure?
Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts?
(P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
September 27th, 2010 at 10:07:14 AM
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Quote: thecesspitI do actually agree with one thing, that often people try to be a fixer when all the ranter wants is someone to listen. But active listening, not just nodding and hoping they'll stop talking so they can go back to their six pack and football game. That point is very true. I'm just sorry that you heard it and then went a very different way with it.
There's probably some give on that, though. If the gal knows that, for a few hours every week, her man finds recreation/decompression/whatever in watching a couple of football games ... AND she picks that exact time, week after week after week, to need to vent ... then I would grow less suspicious that she just needs to vent and more suspicious that she was "measuring her value" (for lack of a better term).
There are about a zillion dynamics that lead up to that from the guy driving her towards that, to her being selfish and childish. But that's my point ... it's the dynamics behind the behavior that are the issue, not just a series of events.
I've always kind of thought that, if people want to be together, the venue doesn't really matter. I've been outright told on two different occasions that I'm very attractive when I'm completely comfortable and in my element, and I'm inviting and accepting her to be a part of it. One time, ironically, it was while watching football!
Another way of saying the same thing is (paraphrasing a reality show contestant): "men just have this camaraderie that, if they invite you to be a part of it, is just so awesome to be a part of."
I think the woman is always asking herself, Am I beautiful? Am I accepted? Am I safe? If she feels these things, then venting is, I think, less of an issue, not that it goes away, but that she will be more understanding if she can't vent when/where/how/now she wants to.
Whether or not the woman feels safe/beautiful/accepted is an internal issue (her self-esteem, etc.) or a relationship issue (the guy treats her poorly) is a whole 'nother ball game!
My $0.02.
September 27th, 2010 at 10:18:12 AM
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Kurt Vonnegut hypothesized that the staggering rise in divorce is a direct result of much smaller extended families (or geographic remoteness of those families). He said women just want people to talk to, and since there aren't as many aunts, sister in-laws, female cousins, etc. hanging around a core family these days, the women run out of people to talk to much sooner which then leads to marital strain and divorce. Makes sense to me.
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
September 27th, 2010 at 11:35:28 AM
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Hey it's a hypothesis but until there is statistical evidence to support it it seems like a pretty big stretch.
I think there is little doubt that feminism and the huge increase in females with careers and the eroding of a traditional family, thus more stress on them and more stress on the relationship is a major factor. Women are not wired for the daily stress and competition of the business world. It is evident in the general lack of harmonious working environments when women work together as equals.
A family needs one king not 2 arguing heads. The tendency for females to exhibit socially liberal ideas(help the poor, help the criminals, help the semmingly helpless) just shows they belong in the most important job of all, at home raising a family with compassion, understanding, and love.
I think there is little doubt that feminism and the huge increase in females with careers and the eroding of a traditional family, thus more stress on them and more stress on the relationship is a major factor. Women are not wired for the daily stress and competition of the business world. It is evident in the general lack of harmonious working environments when women work together as equals.
A family needs one king not 2 arguing heads. The tendency for females to exhibit socially liberal ideas(help the poor, help the criminals, help the semmingly helpless) just shows they belong in the most important job of all, at home raising a family with compassion, understanding, and love.
September 27th, 2010 at 12:16:52 PM
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IMHO, there's some truth to this but I also think it requires a little extra care to discuss ...
I wasn't around while it was going on, but from looking at the kinds of ads that prevailed up to the beginning of the feminist movement, I can see why the movement began. Degrading women, portraying them as stupid, etc. was the apparent norm.
But like many movements (and I would put labor unions and environmentalism among them), its original purposes and intents - however noble - have been hijacked. For example, labor unions are less about safety and fairness and more about greed and politics. Environmentalism is less about cleaning up and conserving, and more about ... well ... greed and politics, and I would add control to this one (light bulbs you use, batteries, car, etc.).
Nowadays, all the ads show men as the stupid, brainless, spineless ones. But I think this pendulum will swing back and forth, given enough time.
PS - I would argue that one reason women have taken a more masculine role is in part due to men abandoning it. If men act masculine (not macho, or condescending, or domineering - none of which is truly masculine), women (in general) will stop.
My $0.02.
I wasn't around while it was going on, but from looking at the kinds of ads that prevailed up to the beginning of the feminist movement, I can see why the movement began. Degrading women, portraying them as stupid, etc. was the apparent norm.
But like many movements (and I would put labor unions and environmentalism among them), its original purposes and intents - however noble - have been hijacked. For example, labor unions are less about safety and fairness and more about greed and politics. Environmentalism is less about cleaning up and conserving, and more about ... well ... greed and politics, and I would add control to this one (light bulbs you use, batteries, car, etc.).
Nowadays, all the ads show men as the stupid, brainless, spineless ones. But I think this pendulum will swing back and forth, given enough time.
PS - I would argue that one reason women have taken a more masculine role is in part due to men abandoning it. If men act masculine (not macho, or condescending, or domineering - none of which is truly masculine), women (in general) will stop.
My $0.02.
September 27th, 2010 at 2:31:56 PM
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Quote: Garnabby20th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
The 20th century of the Common Era began on January 1, 1901 and ended on December 31, 2000. In contrast to the earlier centuries, one of the most prominent...
Colbertism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Colbertism from the "Urban Dictionary":
Yes. EvenBob's attitude is imported from the 19th century, or perhaps the 18th.
I meant the term in reference to Stephen Colbert, of "The Colbert Report", who I believe coined the word, "truthiness".
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 2:36:05 PM
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Quote: clarkacalThe tendency for females to exhibit socially liberal ideas(help the poor, help the criminals, help the semmingly helpless) just shows they belong in the most important job of all, at home raising a family with compassion, understanding, and love.
But...but...but...doesn't that mean that they should be out there in the social and political marketplace, sharing and disseminating those compassionate ideals?
It seems to me that in the United States and Europe, socially liberal practices didn't start until women began to have a voice in society. In traditional male-dominated societies, people being assholes to one another was pretty much the social and political norm. The abolitionist movement, for example, was largely driven by women.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 2:46:53 PM
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Quote: mkl654321I meant the term in reference to Stephen Colbert, of "The Colbert Report", who I believe coined the word, "truthiness".
Okay, that's what i thought... though i didn't know about that particular neoism of his. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoism )
And i think a big help in figuring out "where you're coming from" here.
Why bet at all, if you can be sure?
Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts?
(P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
September 27th, 2010 at 4:20:43 PM
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Quote: mkl654321But...but...but...doesn't that mean that they should be out there in the social and political marketplace, sharing and disseminating those compassionate ideals?
It seems to me that in the United States and Europe, socially liberal practices didn't start until women began to have a voice in society. In traditional male-dominated societies, people being assholes to one another was pretty much the social and political norm. The abolitionist movement, for example, was largely driven by women.
No, that's the point. It should be at home with children when it is needed and can make a difference, not in an adult society where it is unnatural, counterproductive, and f***s things up. The main difference between liberals and sensible people isn't that liberals are compassionate and kind hearted and others are cold and elitist, almost everyone would love for everyone else to be happy, fulfilled, and wanting for nothing. The difference is non liberals understand this condition is unnatural and impossible, and trying to force it through laws or media pressure inevitably brings all of society down.
September 27th, 2010 at 4:28:01 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
I wasn't around while it was going on, but from looking at the kinds of ads that prevailed up to the beginning of the feminist movement, I can see why the movement began. Degrading women, portraying them as stupid, etc. was the apparent norm.
Or in other words, how heterosexual men are portrayed in 2010.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
September 27th, 2010 at 5:03:16 PM
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Quote: clarkacalNo, that's the point. It should be at home with children when it is needed and can make a difference, not in an adult society where it is unnatural, counterproductive, and f***s things up. The main difference between liberals and sensible people isn't that liberals are compassionate and kind hearted and others are cold and elitist, almost everyone would love for everyone else to be happy, fulfilled, and wanting for nothing. The difference is non liberals understand this condition is unnatural and impossible, and trying to force it through laws or media pressure inevitably brings all of society down.
Inevitably? Name one society that's been brought down by overly liberal attitudes? Just one (hint : communism is certainly not 'liberal' before we go there). I could be wrong and have forgotten about it.
Liberalism is not inherently evil, no more than conservatism is. And America is quite welcome to choose what sort of society and system they want. It's an important debate. What is the American dream, really? And yer at a cross roads on that. S'not my country, and I'm not ever going to live there.
But I restate this sort of bipartisan 'that side is dumb' politics is EXACTLY what the movers and shakers won't to control you. it's a classic tactic used by communist cadre's to the brown shirts to your standard democratic/republican government. Create a boogey man to turn attention away from yourself and gather support.
I digress the topic anyway from 'can men and women be friends' anyways, so apologies. If a woman doesn't have children, can she not participate in society externally then? What if she's not married yet? Should she stay at home and look after someone else's children? or make sure she's pretty enough to get a husband, run the household and make sure she rules the roost?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
