AP stink of illegality
April 17th, 2017 at 3:56:03 PM
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Feel free to add your thoughts or experiences
Seems a lot of people i know think AP is illegal
Within the last day 2 people very familiar with what i do hav insinuated that
While discussing an Unfortunate coworker of mine who has become addicted to drugs my friend stated u never know if he gets arrested and tries to bargain with the police about what i do. To which i pointed put i do nothing illegal so whats to bargain with. Cops want to know of illegal activity not legal ap moves in a situation like that
Then later another friend said i am lucky ive never been arrested for all the shenanigans at the casino. Again i stated thats because i dont break any laws
She shrugged her shoulders and stated "you winning all this money at the casino has the stink of illegality"
So many people i come across have this perception that outsmarting the casino is inherently illegal
Mind you i have been backroomed a few times including in the same casino more than once and never have i ever been charged or arrested - because i commit no crimes. (Trust me one casino really tried to find something even calling the police who had to admit no crime was committed so come on)
Anyway just wondering how other AP friends and family feel. Does anyone else have this issue?
Seems a lot of people i know think AP is illegal
Within the last day 2 people very familiar with what i do hav insinuated that
While discussing an Unfortunate coworker of mine who has become addicted to drugs my friend stated u never know if he gets arrested and tries to bargain with the police about what i do. To which i pointed put i do nothing illegal so whats to bargain with. Cops want to know of illegal activity not legal ap moves in a situation like that
Then later another friend said i am lucky ive never been arrested for all the shenanigans at the casino. Again i stated thats because i dont break any laws
She shrugged her shoulders and stated "you winning all this money at the casino has the stink of illegality"
So many people i come across have this perception that outsmarting the casino is inherently illegal
Mind you i have been backroomed a few times including in the same casino more than once and never have i ever been charged or arrested - because i commit no crimes. (Trust me one casino really tried to find something even calling the police who had to admit no crime was committed so come on)
Anyway just wondering how other AP friends and family feel. Does anyone else have this issue?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
April 17th, 2017 at 4:03:33 PM
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My brother in law after seeing the 21 movie said "I saw the movie about the MIT people who cheat the casinos like you do".
A few friends have asked if I wasn't afraid of being arrested for cheating.
It's definitely a misconception that the public has.Hell it's a misconception the casinos have also.
A few friends have asked if I wasn't afraid of being arrested for cheating.
It's definitely a misconception that the public has.Hell it's a misconception the casinos have also.
Happy days are here again
April 17th, 2017 at 4:21:11 PM
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Do you ever get accused of being a gambling addict?
April 17th, 2017 at 4:50:04 PM
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You all need to get smarter friends and family (-:
I have yet to hear any of this from friends and family. Perhaps I am able to describe it in a way they understand.
9 out of 10 times they want to come help, so I they must not assume any of this.
I have yet to hear any of this from friends and family. Perhaps I am able to describe it in a way they understand.
9 out of 10 times they want to come help, so I they must not assume any of this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 17th, 2017 at 4:56:46 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfYou all need to get smarter friends and family (-:
I have yet to hear any of this from friends and family. Perhaps I am able to describe it in a way they understand.
9 out of 10 times they want to come help, so I they must not assume any of this.
Or they just want to help you cheat... :-)
The truth is, many or most people don't know all the laws in different circumstances. It's not that they are specifically naive when it comes to casinos / gambling laws & whatnot......but that they are just naive regarding laws in general.
April 17th, 2017 at 4:59:17 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfYou all need to get smarter friends and family (-:
I have yet to hear any of this from friends and family. Perhaps I am able to describe it in a way they understand.
9 out of 10 times they want to come help, so I they must not assume any of this.
Not really able to get smarter family. Most were prepackaged when i was born
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
April 17th, 2017 at 5:02:42 PM
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Quote: gamerfreakDo you ever get accused of being a gambling addict?
Yes lol. Forgot about that too. Lots of people although not as much as those who think AP is illegal since those people see me winning money
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
April 17th, 2017 at 5:03:09 PM
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In that case I should crack out the Way Way Beyond Counting book.Quote: RSOr they just want to help you cheat... :-)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 17th, 2017 at 5:20:00 PM
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Reply that it is not illegal to use your brain in a casino.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 17th, 2017 at 5:29:09 PM
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My comic book friends think I make my money playing blackjack. My blackjack friends think I make my money selling comics. Many an acquaintance has mentioned they know I'm in the drug game or money laundering.
Who cares?
Who cares?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 17th, 2017 at 5:29:24 PM
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if that's true, you owe them for not knowing and letting your own brain develop.Quote: darkozNot really able to get smarter family. Most were prepackaged when i was born
Whether something is illegal depends on the ignorance and foolishness of the accused. Some people will just agree to any allegation, true or not, against their best interest. Some people know more, lie, deceive, but they cannot be caught because they're shifty. What they're doing can be illegal if they would allow themselves to be railroaded, or just admit to the version of reality others see. I think most crimes can't be prosecuted without a confession.
I am a robot.
April 17th, 2017 at 7:04:32 PM
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I feel more like a criminal being an AP then
I did the few times in my life when I actually
stole something. It's doing it right in front
of them, with them watching, it makes me
feel like I'm doing something immoral. Even
when I know I'm not. It's lot like lying to
your wife. You just know she see's the lie,
even though she doesn't.
I did the few times in my life when I actually
stole something. It's doing it right in front
of them, with them watching, it makes me
feel like I'm doing something immoral. Even
when I know I'm not. It's lot like lying to
your wife. You just know she see's the lie,
even though she doesn't.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 17th, 2017 at 7:37:07 PM
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I think it depends on what kind of AP stuff you do, what kinda people are your friends and family, and how you explain it.
If you're a poker player, your friends & whatnot are not likely to see you as a cheater or doing something illegal.
If you're a card counter, it's probably a bit more 50/50, closer to them thinking you're up to no good. But if your friends and family have all been around gambling all their lives and/or someone plays poker for a living, I'd say less likely they see CC'ing as necessarily bad.
Even if your family included professional CC's, poker players, promo hunters, etc. and your main game was targeting gaffed slot machines (perhaps it overpays when you cash out) or possibly hole-carding table games, there's a decent chance your friends & family would consider that cheating or illegal.
And there's also probably several things that all around APs might think is illegal or cheating (not gonna name plays), for example -- the double up bug.
For whatever reason, every now and then my mom will get the feeling or urge that I'm involved in some Las Vegas mafia gang or something and is worried that I owe some loan sharks some money. When talking about my gambling / AP and a trip I went on, sometimes I'll absent-mindedly say something like I'm still owed $X or I owe $Y and she'll start thinking I'm dealing with loan sharks and criminals or something.
Easiest way is to just tell people you play poker. Nobody thinks playing poker for a living is illegal or cheating.
Don't you play roulette....?
If you're a poker player, your friends & whatnot are not likely to see you as a cheater or doing something illegal.
If you're a card counter, it's probably a bit more 50/50, closer to them thinking you're up to no good. But if your friends and family have all been around gambling all their lives and/or someone plays poker for a living, I'd say less likely they see CC'ing as necessarily bad.
Even if your family included professional CC's, poker players, promo hunters, etc. and your main game was targeting gaffed slot machines (perhaps it overpays when you cash out) or possibly hole-carding table games, there's a decent chance your friends & family would consider that cheating or illegal.
And there's also probably several things that all around APs might think is illegal or cheating (not gonna name plays), for example -- the double up bug.
For whatever reason, every now and then my mom will get the feeling or urge that I'm involved in some Las Vegas mafia gang or something and is worried that I owe some loan sharks some money. When talking about my gambling / AP and a trip I went on, sometimes I'll absent-mindedly say something like I'm still owed $X or I owe $Y and she'll start thinking I'm dealing with loan sharks and criminals or something.
Easiest way is to just tell people you play poker. Nobody thinks playing poker for a living is illegal or cheating.
Quote: EvenBobI feel more like a criminal being an AP...
Don't you play roulette....?
April 17th, 2017 at 7:58:43 PM
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Quote: RSDon't you play roulette....?
Or bac, they're interchangable.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 17th, 2017 at 8:22:47 PM
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I'm 99.45% sure that should have been a quote from AxelWolf?Quote: RS
Easiest way is to just tell people you play poker. Nobody thinks playing poker for a living is illegal or cheating.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 17th, 2017 at 8:37:01 PM
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Quote: RSEasiest way is to just tell people you play poker. Nobody thinks playing poker for a living is illegal or cheating.
Yeah, nobody cheats at poker. Just ask Russ Hamilton.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 17th, 2017 at 8:58:13 PM
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I didn't say you can't cheat at poker. I said people (at least them common folk) don't view playing poker professionally as cheating (or illegal).
April 18th, 2017 at 1:46:27 AM
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On another forum a BJ AP posted that he'd been trespassed at a few large casinos in Vegas where he lives, and when his family comes to visit they want to go to those casinos. Of course, he can't go there and it's awkward for him to try to explain why he can't go. There is a mentality out there that reckons that if an individual has a dispute with a large business, the individual must be at fault. If cops are ever called to a retail store to investigate a dispute between a customer and any store personnel they will immediately side with the store.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
April 18th, 2017 at 2:11:33 AM
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Since poker became more popular and mainstream. It became an accepted form of entertainment and also thought of as a legitimate, fun, well paying career.Quote: IbeatyouracesYeah, nobody cheats at poker. Just ask Russ Hamilton.
People may not understand how one could beat most games in the casinos, but they could somewhat understand how one could beat poker. Their first thoughts were not skepticism, cheating, addicted gambler or whatever.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 18th, 2017 at 5:40:41 AM
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Quote: RSI didn't say you can't cheat at poker. I said people (at least them common folk) don't view playing poker professionally as cheating (or illegal).
I agree. When my profession comes up with new acquaintances and i say i gamble professionally the first guess is almost always oh you play poker.
Then their second guess is oh you count cards at blackjack with the wizened council "better be careful. They lock you up for that"
Its like every ploppies gambling education comes from watching rain man
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
April 18th, 2017 at 7:59:51 AM
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This is my experience as well. I think I relate it in a way (by giving very easy examples usually such as must hits) so they see it's more of a moment of opportunity to jump on.Quote: AxelWolfYou all need to get smarter friends and family (-:
I have yet to hear any of this from friends and family. Perhaps I am able to describe it in a way they understand.
9 out of 10 times they want to come help, so I they must not assume any of this.
I'd think people who think it's illegal think you're somehow stealing because they can't fathom the fact that a casino can actually be beat. But usually when I give the must hit example they go "oh well yeah that makes sense" and I just follow that up with "There's similar type things where you can get advantages in tons of other games" then they get curious and want to learn more.
Oh dammit... Axel made me laugh.Quote: AxelWolfIn that case I should crack out the Way Way Beyond Counting book.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
April 18th, 2017 at 8:11:31 AM
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I was a poker player, not an AP, but I suspect it would've been the same for me if I'd been on the AP side. I never really ran into that kind of thinking. Various people were probably a little skeptical that I had won long term, but the attitude was never to defend the casino. I think the reaction was more, consensual transaction + maybe casinos/gambling aren't the greatest to begin with so who cares. Maybe if you see casinos as a 100% legitimate form of entertainment, then it feels like cheating?
I also wonder if political trends mean that people polarized on the right might be drifting towards an attitude that participating in gambling in any way is bad.
My dad once opened a restaurant, and we found ourselves in neck deep, AND were then told by someone in the industry that you had to cheat on taxes to be competitive. After the fact, a (less smart) uncle (by marriage) said we shouldn't have gotten into an industry that required that sort of thing. It wasn't that laws should be enforced, or that one should be able to assume a legal playing field in business, it was that... we should've been psychic? I don't even know. People have weird attitudes.
I also wonder if political trends mean that people polarized on the right might be drifting towards an attitude that participating in gambling in any way is bad.
My dad once opened a restaurant, and we found ourselves in neck deep, AND were then told by someone in the industry that you had to cheat on taxes to be competitive. After the fact, a (less smart) uncle (by marriage) said we shouldn't have gotten into an industry that required that sort of thing. It wasn't that laws should be enforced, or that one should be able to assume a legal playing field in business, it was that... we should've been psychic? I don't even know. People have weird attitudes.
April 18th, 2017 at 8:28:28 AM
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Thou shalt not gamble... "While the Bible does not explicitly mention gambling, it does mention events of 'luck' or 'chance.'" The bible basically condems the love of money because if you go after money you're putting it on a pedistal next to god, and "Matthew 6:24 proclaims, “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”"Quote: socksI also wonder if political trends mean that people polarized on the right might be drifting towards an attitude that participating in gambling in any way is bad.
Most righty's today don't even understand where this came from, but it's not their objective to understand, only to be told and led. Thus they take it on blind faith that the bible/elders say it's bad, welp, then it's bad.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
April 18th, 2017 at 8:31:02 AM
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Quote: RS
For whatever reason, every now and then my mom will get the feeling or urge that I'm involved in some Las Vegas mafia gang or something and is worried that I owe some loan sharks some money. When talking about my gambling / AP and a trip I went on, sometimes I'll absent-mindedly say something like I'm still owed $X or I owe $Y and she'll start thinking I'm dealing with loan sharks and criminals or something.
I think the AP move would be to allow Mom to think you owe money to shady characters and maybe she will give you some cash to keep you safe. If you are not willing to beat Mom out of a few bucks you aren't a real AP.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
April 18th, 2017 at 3:20:40 PM
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Quote: darkozI
Its like every ploppies gambling education comes from watching rain man
Or that movie where he reads a card
counting book on the plane to Vegas
and wins $80K his first time playing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2017 at 4:29:43 PM
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I have never once heard anything like this at all. And if I ever did, my answer would be "casino games are not illegal," then never make it a topic of conversation again
April 18th, 2017 at 4:40:22 PM
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If the person who's getting comment's like that is working in what some may consider grey areas then I can see why someone may say such things.Quote: TomGI have never once heard anything like this at all. And if I ever did, my answer would be "casino games are not illegal," then never make it a topic of conversation again
I think we just had a poster asking about using fake ID to avoid being identified by the casino while counting.
I have to assume most people would think of that as illegal, even in NV.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 18th, 2017 at 4:41:38 PM
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Quote: RomesThou shalt not gamble...
To be honest, I wasn't even thinking about religion. I think even the secular right is reevaluating the importance of culture and moving away from the libertarian mindset.
April 18th, 2017 at 5:05:31 PM
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If you have to ask the question(is gambling a sin?)Quote: RomesThou shalt not gamble... "While the Bible does not explicitly mention gambling, it does mention events of 'luck' or 'chance.'" The bible basically condems the love of money because if you go after money you're putting it on a pedistal next to god, and "Matthew 6:24 proclaims, “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”"
Most righty's today don't even understand where this came from, but it's not their objective to understand, only to be told and led. Thus they take it on blind faith that the bible/elders say it's bad, welp, then it's bad.
Then it is a sin. There is nothing holy about casinos or gambling.
Assuming one believes in God and the bible, I don't think he cares about your "entertainment" one bit. Your entertainment should be at church, at home praying, reading the bible, helping others, giving to the church, spreading the word of god. One should eat, breath and live for God every moment possible.
Obviously over the years religions had to lax up in order to keep up attendance.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 18th, 2017 at 8:34:49 PM
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Quote: AxelWolf... Obviously over the years religions had to lax up in order to keep up attendance.
Yeah, I heard some parishes "fist bump" now during the sign of peace, instead of shaking hands. <== not making that up.
April 19th, 2017 at 11:07:50 AM
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Quote: AxelWolf
People may not understand how one could beat most games in the casinos, but they could somewhat understand how one could beat poker. Their first thoughts were not skepticism, cheating, addicted gambler or whatever.
There's also an element of "it's on TV so it has to be legit." Obviously, many poker players are gambling addicts, and we don't really know how many of the TV guys are cheaters, con artists and crooks. But we know it's way more than most people think.
As for the religious stuff. I'd think serious -ev gambling would be at least frowned upon by most religions. I don't know what religion is going to endorse a self destructive compulsion driven by love of money and attachment to the material world.
A little bingo to raise money for the church should be fine. Basically, messing around with pocket money and having fun wit friends. I think even a home game might be ok.
Being religious and being owning or operating a casino must take some amazing mental gymnastics. Unless you are a religious bigot maybe, like Sheldon.
AP/poker pro, it's hard to say. You are a parasite, but not actively harming anybody any more than many other competitive businesses. You are driven by money. But then, what compels a secretary or a garbage man to go to work? It's probably a small mark against you, but you can make up for it elsewhere.
April 19th, 2017 at 11:21:53 AM
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I think it's rather comical that most religions denounce gambling, but EVERY CHURCH in a 500 mile radius of me that I know of has "festival night" to raise money for the church or some cause in which they offer blackjack, craps, poker, etc, etc, etc. We condemn gambling, unless you're going to give your money to USSSSSSSS! #IiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrooooooooonnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyQuote: Rigondeaux...As for the religious stuff. I'd think serious -ev gambling would be at least frowned upon by most religions. I don't know what religion is going to endorse a self destructive compulsion driven by love of money and attachment to the material world...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
April 19th, 2017 at 11:38:33 AM
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Well, if they say gambling per se is a sin, that's a big problem.
If they oppose casinos but think that truly recreational gambling for pocket money, or to raise money for charity is ok, then I think they are in the clear. I'm sure they see the maintenance of their churches as a legitimately good cause.
If they are taking people's rent money and cashing SS checks so they can be gambled away at the church function, that's also a problem.
If they oppose casinos but think that truly recreational gambling for pocket money, or to raise money for charity is ok, then I think they are in the clear. I'm sure they see the maintenance of their churches as a legitimately good cause.
If they are taking people's rent money and cashing SS checks so they can be gambled away at the church function, that's also a problem.
April 19th, 2017 at 12:01:37 PM
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Quote: RomesI think it's rather comical that most religions denounce gambling, but EVERY CHURCH in a 500 mile radius of me that I know of has "festival night" to raise money for the church or some cause in which they offer blackjack, craps, poker, etc, etc, etc. We condemn gambling, unless you're going to give your money to USSSSSSSS! #Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrooooooooonnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyy
I've never known of a church that had a casino or festival night. I've heard of it, like on WOV or BJTF, but never actually seen one or heard of one first hand. First hand, I've never heard of a church condemning gambling like you're insinuating they all do.
April 19th, 2017 at 12:03:27 PM
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Theres a reason all dogs go to heaven....none of them gamble. And dog spelled backward is God.Quote: RigondeauxWell, if they say gambling per se is a sin, that's a big problem.
If they oppose casinos but think that truly recreational gambling for pocket money, or to raise money for charity is ok, then I think they are in the clear. I'm sure they see the maintenance of their churches as a legitimately good cause.
If they are taking people's rent money and cashing SS checks so they can be gambled away at the church function, that's also a problem.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 19th, 2017 at 12:21:57 PM
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Well here in the mid-west we clearly are better christians than you... For the record I suppose I'm agnostic, but was raised catholic and went to sunday school every week and 'studied' the bible.Quote: RSI've never known of a church that had a casino or festival night. I've heard of it, like on WOV or BJTF, but never actually seen one or heard of one first hand. First hand, I've never heard of a church condemning gambling like you're insinuating they all do.
Yeah, almost every church around says it's a sin and condemns it, though "now days" mostly it's frowned upon and less harshly condemned (because everyone has done it or does do it in some fashion).
And yeah, tons of churches put on events. Also, private christian schools do the same, and many "town festivals" are held on church grounds. It's a hodgepodgery of irony.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
April 19th, 2017 at 12:30:36 PM
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The hatred of gambling has surpassed religion at this point. Lots of millennials who are non-religious in the USA take a strong stance against gambling and Europeans as well. The only place where it seems to have a decent balance yet is in Asia and Oceania.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
April 19th, 2017 at 12:32:45 PM
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Thats just because they don't know where eachothers hands have just been.Quote: megapixelsYeah, I heard some parishes "fist bump" now during the sign of peace, instead of shaking hands. <== not making that up.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 19th, 2017 at 12:33:34 PM
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Did you get the extra special clergy treatment?Quote: RomesWell here in the mid-west we clearly are better christians than you... For the record I suppose I'm agnostic, but was raised catholic and went to sunday school every week and 'studied' the bible.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
