What TABLE games (or bet) does the HOUSE not have its advantage?

You already know where I'm going with this so ya might as well play along. Assuming, there are NO games that the house has NO advantage, why play any of them? (Wait, let me guess, AP) Why are we on these boards? If player 'A' should not be able to win, then doesn't that mean that player 'B' should ALSO not be able to win? Regardless of the game they are playing. The HA is still present whether its keno or perfect strategy play for blackjack. All comments are welcome. Ken

Why do we gamble? Because we know that, although the house always has the long-term advantage, but we also know that on a day-to-day basis, some people go home winners. It's not always the same people, but some absolutely do win. So why not try to see if it's gonna be us?

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To answer your original question, it's been discussed here before: There is a casino in New Mexico (I forget the name) that pays triple on BOTH the 2 and 12 for a craps field bet. That's a 0% edge. I forget what else, but I seem to recall that there was some other bet at that casino that's also 0%.

Some video poker games have a player advantage. 100x odds craps and the Barona single-deck blackjack game have a house edge of about 0.01%, which is almost zero.

Pretty straight up: if I wanted to guarantee that I made money, I'd go to work instead. I gamble because I love the thrill right before the cards are turned, the dice settle, the ball drops, the wheels stop. The skip of the beat. Otherwise, why bother.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why do we gamble? Because we know that, although the house always has the long-term advantage, but we also know that on a day-to-day basis, some people go home winners. It's not always the same people, but some absolutely do win. So why not try to see if it's gonna be us?

"You don't gamble to win. You gamble so you can gamble the next day." - Bert Ambrose, Band leader

Santa Ana Star in New Mexico offered a promotional bet with no house advantage on the craps table.

The odds bet in craps is 0%. I am amazed at how many craps players do not play it.

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Even if the HA is 0%, where is the advantage for YOU? The last time I checked, 0% is not an advantage. My POINT being...... Granted, 5.26% is high (00 roulette), I dont dispute that. The SAME people that say I cant win are the SAME people who also play a TABLE game where the house has its advantage. lol I dont care if its only .000000001%, you are STILL not suppose to win in the LONG term, technically. They CAN win but its impossible for me? Ken

Quote: mrjjj

Even if the HA is 0%, where is the advantage for YOU? The last time I checked, 0% is not an advantage. My POINT being...... Granted, 5.26% is high (00 roulette), I dont dispute that. The SAME people that say I cant win are the SAME people who also play a TABLE game where the house has its advantage. lol I dont care if its only .000000001%, you are STILL not suppose to win in the LONG term, technically. They CAN win but its impossible for me? Ken

Nobody says you can't win. The only roulette system I know of where you actually can't win is "put $1 on all 38 spots". Your system doesn't do that. What people are saying is that the EV of your system is negative, just like you know each bet is. Negative EV doesn't mean "you can't win". It just means that over any reasonably-long session, roulette results will tend to cluster around a loss that is 5.26% of the total amount wagered. If your results are above that level (and especially if they're above zero), then you've been lucky. That's all - it's not the system, it's your good luck.

@MathExtremist >> Hmmm, so that means, you DO know of a method where a person can WIN in the long term? What is the method if I may ask? Ken

Quote: mrjjj

@MathExtremist >> Hmmm, so that means, you DO know of a method where a person can WIN in the long term? What is the method if I may ask? Ken

There are plenty of methods for +EV play, but there are no betting systems. The difference between "can win" and "can (or will) win in the long term" is very important. Keep one thing in mind: you don't live in the long run but the casino does.

Ok thats neat. So your way of play, your preferred bets (word it however you want) is what? Ken

The only time you have an advantage at a table game is when you

(1) buy a double down at Blackjack / Spanish / Switch that another player did not take.
(2) play a jackpot table game where the jackpot is above the breakeven point for the game (ie 250,000 for Caribbean).

That's it.

So for the record, does EVERYONE agree with this? Question: Lets say you are playing BJ and your #1 example never happens, then what? Ken

Quote: mrjjj

Ok thats neat. So your way of play, your preferred bets (word it however you want) is what? Ken

I play craps. For fun. I never have the edge (except when I get lucky and someone sells me their don't bets).

Ok but thats like me changing my answer.....I only play roulette for FUN. So from now on, I am exempt from anyone ripping on my methods. I'll throw in a disclaimer as well: Any roulette method I post, is for entertainment purposes only. Does that sound about right? Ken

There are plenty of other one-off examples which do not involve cheating:

- biased roulette wheels (very difficult to find)
- biased roulette croupiers who bias their spin by releasing the ball and turning the wheel at the same velocities enabling one to predict a sector of the wheel. (difficult to find?)
- dealers regularly exposing hole cards (in any game) (difficult to find)
- card counters (easy skill, not being caught)
- biased dice (difficult to prove)
- dice control experts (rare skill).

mrjjj,

I haven't ripped on you yet, but there are alot of people on this site that believe in the Wizard's ideals, which is that there is no gambling system or betting strategy that can beat the house edge. If you're being ripped on, it's because I believe that you're posting betting systems which, for all intents and purposes, is no better than me putting on a blindfold and picking a number between 0 and 38. You say you're winning. The math experts on this site are saying that you are on the positive side of the variance for this game (aka, lucky). Good for you.

My experience on roulette has been nothing short of the Clark Griswold experience. I don't like the game. The only thing I do like about the game is it is sometimes frequented (at my casino) by young hotties who wear low cut shirts and short dresses and bend over to place the numbers. Now that's entertainment.

Quote: mrjjj

Ok but thats like me changing my answer.....I only play roulette for FUN. So from now on, I am exempt from anyone ripping on my methods. I'll throw in a disclaimer as well: Any roulette method I post, is for entertainment purposes only. Does that sound about right? Ken

It should be right. Whether you believe it or whether you believe your method(s) produce an edge over the house is entirely up to you. Betting systems have many uses -- I play several myself -- but "beating the house" isn't one of them.

"which is that there is no gambling system or betting strategy that can beat the house edge" >>> Thats ok because I only post them for entertainment purposes. Ken

- biased roulette wheels (very difficult to find)
- biased roulette croupiers who bias their spin by releasing the ball and turning the wheel at the same velocities enabling one to predict a sector of the wheel. (difficult to find?)
- dealers regularly exposing hole cards (in any game) (difficult to find)
- card counters (easy skill, not being caught)
- biased dice (difficult to prove)
- dice control experts (rare skill). >>>>> You guys are really grasping at straws. lol Ken

I just rely on luck, luck is always +EV =)

http://www.theluckfactor.com/

mrjjj

To start with there are no games that the house has no advantage on. The gaming board would not allow them. Casinos are in business to make money, and so are the states that have legal gaming in them. The so-called free odd bet in craps was developed to get players to bet the pass-line bet. You are paying to make that bet, with your pass-line bet!

Quote: Ayecarumba

The odds bet in craps is 0%. I am amazed at how many craps players do not play it.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

To answer your original question, it's been discussed here before: There is a casino in New Mexico (I forget the name) that pays triple on BOTH the 2 and 12 for a craps field bet. That's a 0% edge. I forget what else, but I seem to recall that there was some other bet at that casino that's also 0%.

I would guess that the bet that DJTeddyBear is talking about, you can not bet it unless you have a pass-line bet too!


Your dilemma as to why anybody would play a game that the house has an advantage is easily answered, with a question for you or anybody else. Why do you play any game? It does not have to do with gaming, in a casino. Because you think you can win! This could be a friendly game of golf with you buddies, or even by your self. When playing the game by your self you are trying to better the last results you had in the game before.

We compete with everything we do in life, and it could be a simple thing as trying to get that first date with the little girl you had your first crush on. Yes you were playing a type of a game with the other guys that were around the two of you, your first job, and the list goes on and on!

I play craps, and the rest of the players that are on the table are not playing the same game that I am, Most are betting stupid bets in my mind, and you could say the same thing for me if your betting plan was different then mine!
The house does not always win, sure it has a house edge but there will always be winners on the craps table when everybody else is losing. Player A is not a carbon copy of Player B. They could be like night and day, one of them might have at least picked up a book on the game he was going to play, and has some understanding of the game. While the other player just throws his money on the table and hopes that luck is on his side!

One of these two players will be on a board like this, and reading everything he can before he puts the first dime on the table; the other is playing for the entertainment of it, and losing his money. I just want to thank all those kind of players; they keep the casinos in business.

Some players may find this hard to believe, but there are players that do win, at playing casino games in the long run, are you one of them or just someone that is trying to prove that there are losers in all the casinos? If you are on this board I would hope that you already know that facts when you walk through the doors of a casino, 98% of all players will lose in the long run!

I have never seen a system work every time someone plays it, they might get lucky and win today, but it will not work the next time they play! Then again if they do have a way of betting that they won on today, and had the brains not to bet it all back the next day they will come out a winner.

The big problem for most players is greed, and lack knowledge on any table game they play. Everybody takes some kind of risk in life, if we didn’t it would be a boring place for most of us, remember the old question, do you play the Stock Market? There is a risk that you are going to lose your money as a lot of people found out in the pass few years!

At the same time there are people making money in the down market, because they had a different way of investing their money and knew when to get out of the market!

Again 98% of all players play for the entertainment of the game, and might as well just stick their hand high in the air when they walk into a casino, and give them their gambling money! Oh did I forget that a few do get lucky, and win something only to give it back.

I personally want to puke when someone tells me they play for the fun of it, but I do have to laugh because; there wouldn’t be any casinos if it wasn’t for players like that!

"To start with there are no games that the house has no advantage on. The gaming board would not allow them" >>> Yes I know but there are SOME that do NOT believe this. Ken

Quote: mrjjj

- biased roulette croupiers who bias their spin by releasing the ball and turning the wheel at the same velocities enabling one to predict a sector of the wheel. (difficult to find?)
- dealers regularly exposing hole cards (in any game) (difficult to find)

I think the first one is probably a myth. I doubt that this skill is possible.

The new mirrors make the second one difficult to do in the USA. It avoids collaboration between a dealer and a player. A big executive was arrested in Vegas for persuading a young female dealer to collobarate with him. He got busted partly because he was greedy, and seen to be only betting big when he played with her.

The mirrors are an inexpensive option, so I think almost everyplace uses them now.

How are those quotes from me? Ken

Regarding AP players, The greatest trick the devil ever pulled on mankind was to convince them that he doesn't exist.

In short, I agree with your Mr. jjj. There are NO AP players and there haven't been any in over 100 years.

Quote: superrick

I would guess that the bet that DJTeddyBear is talking about, you can not bet it unless you have a pass-line bet too!

Your guess would be incorrect. You may play the Field with 0% edge (Triple 2 and Triple 12) and Buy the 4 and the 10 with no commission at all (pays 2:1). You can play just those bets, all day, every day. No pass line required.

http://www.santaanastar.com/gaming/table-games

This is why I ask......different answers. Ken

- dealers regularly exposing hole cards (in any game) (difficult to find)

Quote: pacomartin

I think the first one is probably a myth. I doubt that this skill is possible.

The new mirrors make the second one difficult to do in the USA. It avoids collaboration between a dealer and a player. A big executive was arrested in Vegas for persuading a young female dealer to collobarate with him. He got busted partly because he was greedy, and seen to be only betting big when he played with her.

The mirrors are an inexpensive option, so I think almost everyplace uses them now.

There are many different ways to catch a hole card in many different games. Collaboration is illegal, sloppy procedures are not.

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That I love. Only you AP (cough) guys know what goes on in multi-million dollar casinos. ROFL Casino staff pay attention to nothing....."Win as much as you want, not a big deal. Have a great day sir, come back tomorrow and hit us again". WTF? Ken