Credit cards, rewards, and annual fees

I routinely get mailer offers for credit cards offering various rewards programs. As a rule, the first thing I have looked at is the annual fee, and if it is anything other than $0, I don't even read any further.

Today I got a mailer for the American Express Premier Rewards Gold Card. It offers the following:

- "3x points for flights booked directly with airlines," something I do about five or six times a year.
- "2x points at U.S. restaurants, gas stations, and supermarkets," all of which I frequent.
- "1x points on other purchases"
- "A 50,000 point welcome offer" if you spend $2,000 in the first three months. It says this is a $500 value, so I guess each point is worth a penny.

The annual fee is $0 for the first year, and then $195 a year.

Those with rewards credit cards, are the rewards they offer really worth it? In this example, I can't imagine the $195 annual fee making the card worth it.

I've heard of some people getting a credit card, taking advantage of the introductory offers, then cancelling the card before the second year. Wouldn't this have repercussions on a person's credit score?

When applying for a credit card, what do you look for?

There's a really good Gambling With an Edge about credit card perks/etc. Sorry I can't recall which one but it was from last year (2015).

Basically you hit it though. A lot of places have/had sign up bonuses and other promotions. Way back in the day you could buy pre-paid visa cards and then go to the bank and pay off the balance... i.e. free transactions that just churned points. Then fly anywhere in the world first class and cancel the card before owing a dime. I personally have never done this, but it's been another branch of AP I've been looking to get in to: AP Travel, as I have a lot of destinations on my list.

As far as credit, I would assume it would at the end have a negative impact, but very very little? When you open a new credit card your credit score goes up because you have more lines of credit available to you. So when you close I'm sure it goes down, but I don't know by how much. The same amount as opening? Then it wouldn't have any affect long term.

Quote: Romes

When you open a new credit card your credit score goes up because you have more lines of credit available to you. So when you close I'm sure it goes down, but I don't know by how much. The same amount as opening? Then it wouldn't have any affect long term.

One of the things looked at for your credit score is the average age of your open accounts. When you get a brand new credit card, that average age goes down, lowering your score. I know my credit score takes at least a little bit of a hit whenever I get a new card.

Quote: Deucekies

One of the things looked at for your credit score is the average age of your open accounts. When you get a brand new credit card, that average age goes down, lowering your score. I know my credit score takes at least a little bit of a hit whenever I get a new card.

I never use credit, so I never think of my credit score. I pay my cards off every month. Am I wrong to think that as long as you pay off your cards your score will be high enough for any possible reason?

My ex wife does what you say..... she will get a card for no annual fee first year, use it for the $2k minimum, then use the 50,000 miles for a free trip or hotel stay or whatever. There are a large number of cards you can do that with. I don't think she really ever pays for a plane ticket anymore. And she will cancel the card as soon as it would be time to pay an annual fee. I should do the same, but don't have the energy to constantly be changing my direct pays, etc.....

Quote: Deucekies

Those with rewards credit cards, are the rewards they offer really worth it? In this example, I can't imagine the $195 annual fee making the card worth it.

I've heard of some people getting a credit card, taking advantage of the introductory offers, then cancelling the card before the second year. Wouldn't this have repercussions on a person's credit score?

When applying for a credit card, what do you look for?

I did this with the Delta AMEX credit card.

Took advantage of the $0 introductory fee for the first year. Spent enough in the first three months to get the 30,000 bonus miles. When I had the card, I primarily flew Delta so the fact that bags flew free with the card was a savings of $50 round trip for each flight I went on. I would say that the rewards were definitely worth it.

Then I canceled it just before the yearly renewal came up so I didn't have to pay the $95 fee.

The credit score implications were not a factor for me, because the effect either way was so negligible that I didn't care.

I have since switched over to mainly fly Southwest and I now have their VISA card. It is a $99 fee per year, which I pay. Each year they give you 6,000 bonus miles, which is roughly equal to $99 so I feel it is a fair price to pay.

Quote: Deucekies

I routinely get mailer offers for credit cards offering various rewards programs. As a rule, the first thing I have looked at is the annual fee, and if it is anything other than $0, I don't even read any further.

I'm with you. All of my cards have a $0 annual fee. I tend to shy away from fee cards. However, if my annual benefit would exceed what would I get from a $0 fee card plus the annual fee, I would consider it. I have yet to find one that does this with my typical spending habits.

Quote:

Today I got a mailer for the American Express Premier Rewards Gold Card. It offers the following:

- "3x points for flights booked directly with airlines," something I do about five or six times a year.
- "2x points at U.S. restaurants, gas stations, and supermarkets," all of which I frequent.
- "1x points on other purchases"
- "A 50,000 point welcome offer" if you spend $2,000 in the first three months. It says this is a $500 value, so I guess each point is worth a penny.

"Point" reward cards have never sit well with me. I'd rather have cash rewards -- cash is king! Since I've never had one, I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that the actual point value varies depending on where they price the things you can "buy" with points. But, again, if the benefits far outweighed what I currently get from my cards, I would consider it.

Quote:

The annual fee is $0 for the first year, and then $195 a year.

Those with rewards credit cards, are the rewards they offer really worth it? In this example, I can't imagine the $195 annual fee making the card worth it.

I would suggest looking at your typical spending habits and then calculate what your rewards would be to see if it is worth it.

Quote:

I've heard of some people getting a credit card, taking advantage of the introductory offers, then cancelling the card before the second year. Wouldn't this have repercussions on a person's credit score?

Yes, but I would imagine the impact is small. Another option is to switch to another American Express product at the end of the year. I did this with a Delta Skymiles Gold card. I initially got it for the free sky miles. Then, I switched to a Blue Cash card at the end of the year to avoid the annual fee. I'm pretty sure it didn't trigger a "credit pull," and the credit line remained the same, so there was no noticeable impact to my credit score.

Quote:

When applying for a credit card, what do you look for?

For me, it's all about max cash back. If you carry a monthly balance (which you really shouldn't in most circumstances), the interest rate would be of great concern when shopping for a card. Some people will chase cards with "$0 balance transfer/0% introductory APR" offers to move their debt from card to card until they can pay off their balance to minimize interest charges.

I also look to see what the Grace Period is. I like to see at least 25 days.

Quote: Deucekies

One of the things looked at for your credit score is the average age of your open accounts. When you get a brand new credit card, that average age goes down, lowering your score. I know my credit score takes at least a little bit of a hit whenever I get a new card.

I can never figure credit scores. It seems like they move counter-intuitively for certain events.

I paid off my mortgage last year. That's a good thing, right? It shows I pay my debts in full, the #1 concern of any creditor. My score went down almost 50 points because of this!

Quote: SOOPOO

I never use credit, so I never think of my credit score. I pay my cards off every month. Am I wrong to think that as long as you pay off your cards your score will be high enough for any possible reason?

Yes, usually this will mean you have good credit, but it's a good idea to know your score anyway. Even if you are not planning to open any new cards/credit lines, other industries use these scores. For instance, some insurance companies use FICO scores to determine how much to charge for premiums.

Many credit cards now offer scores free of charge to their customers.

It's just another form of AP.To do well you need to put alot of time and effort into it.
There are websites dedicated to this subject.

This is my 30 year anniversary as an Amex cardholder. It's been worth every penny of their annual fee.

But you're not looking for a sales pitch, so I won't go on about them.

Looking at your offer, though, the card is essentially free to you for 3 1/2 years minimum, just by taking advantage of their opening offer.The first year free, next 2 years at 195, part of the 4th year paid for, just by spending money you're spending anyway but putting it on the card, and earning those points besides.

You want a quality card with excellent fraud protection, it doesn't come better or cheaper.

The following is meant for the large number of wov folks in their 20s and early 30s, info from hard knocks and 40 years of credit cards. My score has been everywhere from 550 to 800 over that time, so I've learned plenty along the way. Hope to save somebody some nasty surprises.

They are looking at:

Total credit extended to you vs. Your reported annual income. Flag: owing more than 15%or so of your annual income. You can have open accounts with zero bal, though, and that's usually good.

Total credit available to you vs. The percentage of that amount in use. Flag: increasing percentage indicates you're living off the cards. So does a high percentage, generally starting at 50%

Average age of your accounts as above. Flag: more than 2 or 3 less than about 3 years old.

Type of credit extended (secured vs unsecured) and how many accounts you have. Flag: more than about 8 accounts open from all sources.

How many hard inquiries per year or per quarter on your credit. Flag: more than about 2 per quarter or 5 per year. Double flag: inquiry that results in refusal.

Quality of cards you hold and maintain. Flag: mostly department store or store credit (like a carpet store or furniture place) rather than visa/mc/Amex type cards.

Whether you are prompt in paying or delinquent. Flag: anything over 90 days, anything that went to a debt collector. If there was a dispute, you should get your side of it in your credit notes. If you're just building a.profile, be really careful about paying on time.

Whether you walked out on any debt - unresolved. As above, you should notate any disputes.

If there are closed accounts, whether you closed them or the vendor did, and why. Pay off a car loan or a card in full, get a zero bal, close it. Gold star, and it says on your report that you closed it. Make the vendor eat all or.part of a loan and they close it for cause. Big red flag.

Short sale or foreclosure; 4 years punishment for new credit.

Bankruptcy : 7 years punishment.

Neither of those last two stops EVERYTHING for that period, but it definitely affects their decisions for that long, and not in your favor. So do settlement activities on your behalf, but I'm less informed about that particular tactic than the rest.

You can also have credit abruptly downsized without warning. Most companies do periodic reviews, and can cut you to nothing without advising you first.

Sources; equifax, amex, transunion, (all as a customer) and a year in the bankrupt /deceased collections at Citibank.

Our household has 4 rewards cards:

2 Alaska Airlines Mileage cards (we live in Alaska) - comes with a $99 annual companion fare, $75 annual fee
2 Capitol One Venture - Double miles on every purchase, can use your miles for any travel related expense, $59 annual fee

Basically, every single possible household expense is put on these four credit cards and our balances are paid off at the end of the statement period. I had a revelation ten years or so back: I will never pay another dime of interest on a credit card...ever. In order to take advantage of the awesome rewards that some of these cards offer, you MUST be disciplined and pay your balances off at the end of the month.

There's a little math involved in figuring out which card is right for you. Figure out what your average monthly expenses are and then weigh that against your benefits minus the annual fee.

Don't get crazy with it. Getting new cards to take advantage of a bonus and then cancelling will hurt your score. If you are planning on a big purchase in the near future, this will hurt you. Also, acquiring too many reward cards let the annual fees start piling up to the point where you're not coming out ahead anymore.

Quote: Steverinos

Our household has 4 rewards cards:

2 Alaska Airlines Mileage cards (we live in Alaska) - comes with a $99 annual companion fare, $75 annual fee
2 Capitol One Venture - Double miles on every purchase, can use your miles for any travel related expense, $59 annual fee

Basically, every single possible household expense is put on these four credit cards and our balances are paid off at the end of the statement period. I had a revelation ten years or so back: I will never pay another dime of interest on a credit card...ever. In order to take advantage of the awesome rewards that some of these cards offer, you MUST be disciplined and pay your balances off at the end of the month.

There's a little math involved in figuring out which card is right for you. Figure out what your average monthly expenses are and then weigh that against your benefits minus the annual fee.

Don't get crazy with it. Getting new cards to take advantage of a bonus and then cancelling will hurt your score. If you are planning on a big purchase in the near future, this will hurt you. Also, acquiring too many reward cards let the annual fees start piling up to the point where you're not coming out ahead anymore.

Your last paragraph is not completely true. The only thing it will hurt is during underwriting for a house. Inquiries will hurt your score slightly but only for 12 months. Closing cards does not hurt your score. Your average age of accounts stays the same for 10 years until the closed card falls off. Your averge age of open accounts will change but that is not a huge score factor. Now saying that I wouldn't open 10 cards and close all 10 in 12 months then open 10 more. There is a line that you have to walk.

I like to think if myself as a strong AP in credit cards. I have a score in the mid 7s and take advantage of a few offers a year. I will generally wait until there is a nice offer like 40k spg rewards with no annual fee for first year. Sign up for it and do the spend. Pay off the card and close it on the 11th month. The points earned can be worth $1500 which is well worth any small temporary credit drop.

People talk about getting 3 and 5x points but that is nothing compared to bonuses. You spend 3k on 5x (which ia not on all purchases) points card and you end up with 15k points. You could have opened a new card and did 3k spend through to earn 30 or 40k in points. A lot of the cards will let you earn the bonus again after a certain time period goes by after you close the card. With a married couple you can get the card, 12 months later your wife gets it, maybe 12 months later you are eligible again. There are enough cards out there that you can burn n churn these things over and over.

People quite often comment comment about the amount of trips that we take (not just you axel) on our modest salary. I try to explain to people when you fly and stay for free it makes it pretty easy to go places. If you ever look at your expenses on a trip 70% of it is probably travel and lodging.

You're right. I should've clarified. It's not necessarily the closing of the account that will drag your score down. It's the inquiry that you have on the "temporary" accounts and your "available credit" being lowered as a result of the card no longer open.

My credit score has gone up while "churning" (I'm a bonus whore, churning doesn't happen much as the banks changed their rules). Credit utilization and average age of accounts are the two big ones, assuming the rest of your finances have been in relatively healthy order. They don't want you using a ton of credit (even on individual cards) then applying for new credit... you're a risk (credit utilization). Average age of accounts is self explanatory. When you cancel a card, your credit utilization goes up (you can adjust this, but if it stays below 10-20% you're fine), but your AAoA stays the same because that account stays on your credit history for 10 years.

Get the Chase Sapphire Reserve. $450 annual fee, 100k UR, $300 travel recovery per calendar year. In the most simple redemption, 100k UR can mean $1500 reimbursed on any flight (you buy it through their portal which isn't any more expensive than the airline's website). Add $600 (two different calendar years per 12 month period) and take away $450... This card earns you $1650 or more if you were planning on traveling in the next 12 months anyway. Way more if you put in research. I'm so sad they won't let me apply for it :(. I have too many inquiries in the past 24 months (one of their rules against churning, inquiries have a minimal effect on your credit score).

The PRG also comes with $100 per calendar year (it's a long story, it's for fees but you can buy gift cards at some airlines with it, it's as good as cash imo). So $200 + 50000 MR equals $700 if you are terrible at redemptions and $950-1150 if you know what you're doing, if not more.

Quote: Steverinos

You're right. I should've clarified. It's not necessarily the closing of the account that will drag your score down. It's the inquiry that you have on the "temporary" accounts and your "available credit" being lowered as a result of the card no longer open.

Yeah obviously there is so much more to it than our short posts.

Inquiries is bad
New account is bad

Better util is good
More available is good

Rewards are great

I am ok with 2 bads, 2 goods, and a great.

I have been wanting to pull the trigger on the 450 annual fee thing but I just can't justify it. I know you get 2k worth of crap but you pay 450 for it. So far I have been ok with the no fees and free stuff. Once I burn through all of those then I will probably end up there.

Right now we have a little too many points that we will probably be good for another year. I have 40k delta sky miles, 18k spg points, and 30k American airlines miles just to name a few. I have a couple other small ones like 8k southwest, 5k spirit, and 8k bofa points.

Ahiromu, how is Chase handling points issued for spending requirements if the patron returns the purchased items after the points have been redeemed?

Case by case basis, never been something I've done.

Google search with correct terms

Best example of your question

That link is from 2014 and the banks have only tightened the noose.

Quote: ahiromu

Case by case basis, never been something I've done.

Google search with correct terms

Best example of your question

That link is from 2014 and the banks have only tightened the noose.

Thanks, I used to churn a lot of cards. The best ever was buying dollar coins from the U.S. Mint at fair value on credit cards. I bet my mailman delivered over 10,000 pounds of coins to my house and had no idea what he was delivering.

Quote: DRich

Quote: ahiromu

Case by case basis, never been something I've done.

Google search with correct terms

Best example of your question

That link is from 2014 and the banks have only tightened the noose.

Thanks, I used to churn a lot of cards. The best ever was buying dollar coins from the U.S. Mint at fair value on credit cards. I bet my mailman delivered over 10,000 pounds of coins to my house and had no idea what he was delivering.

Haha never thought about that.

Quote: DRich

Thanks, I used to churn a lot of cards. The best ever was buying dollar coins from the U.S. Mint at fair value on credit cards. I bet my mailman delivered over 10,000 pounds of coins to my house and had no idea what he was delivering.

Awfully clever. How were you buying coins from the mint at face value? Looking at their website, best deal I can find is $250 in dollar coins for $275.95. I thought they always sold their coins at a premium.

My last score was 770 (brag?). Why should I obsess over the impact that opening a new card or two might have on my score? In other words, why should I care if my score is 730 in January 2017?

I'm not into churning and not buying a house or vehicle. So why the obsession?

Quote: Deucekies

Awfully clever. How were you buying coins from the mint at face value? Looking at their website, best deal I can find is $250 in dollar coins for $275.95. I thought they always sold their coins at a premium.

Every so often the Mint tries to promote the dollar coin over the dollar bill and will sell them on the site. There was a really big push in 2007 when the Presidential $1 coins came out. I was buying about 4000 a week which included free delivery.

They came in unmarked brown card board boxes. I believe it was 20 rolls of 50 coins per roll. The boxes probably weighed about 20lbs each.

I keep 3 cards in my arsenal.

Southwest Visa
Total Rewards Visa
Mlife Mastercard.

Southwest is a boss of a card. 50k sign up bonus with 3k spend. At 110k you get a companion pass for the rest of the calendar year you hit 110k. Sign up for card this November, complete spend in Jan 17. Let's say you finish requirements by June you gave companion for rest of 17 and all of 18.

Trick to getting the 57k extra points is point whoring hotels. Choice hotels runs a couple of offers a year like stay two nights get a 50$ gift card or a free night. But in all reality they just give you 8k points roughly to exchange for a reduced rate gift card which you can only get one at a time I think. So I just bank points. 6k chpice equals 1.8k southwest.

I'm on the road a lot for work so I can accrue really fast. Plus I'll ask my dad and brother to let me book their rooms too. But I'll put it under my choice privilege number and just tell them my brother or dad will be checking in first even if I'm with them or not in the notes. Or if I have a crew out for a week. I'll book 3 rooms let's say all under mine, brother or dad. I'll get credit for all three. To get the stay two separate nights you have to book at choicehotels.com or call it in. Their mobile site is so easy to book on tho. And you have to register for the promo.

Quote: beerseason

I keep 3 cards in my arsenal.

Southwest Visa
Total Rewards Visa
Mlife Mastercard.

Southwest is a boss of a card. 50k sign up bonus with 3k spend. At 110k you get a companion pass for the rest of the calendar year you hit 110k. Sign up for card this November, complete spend in Jan 17. Let's say you finish requirements by June you gave companion for rest of 17 and all of 18.

Trick to getting the 57k extra points is point whoring hotels. Choice hotels runs a couple of offers a year like stay two nights get a 50$ gift card or a free night. But in all reality they just give you 8k points roughly to exchange for a reduced rate gift card which you can only get one at a time I think. So I just bank points. 6k chpice equals 1.8k southwest.

I'm on the road a lot for work so I can accrue really fast. Plus I'll ask my dad and brother to let me book their rooms too. But I'll put it under my choice privilege number and just tell them my brother or dad will be checking in first even if I'm with them or not in the notes. Or if I have a crew out for a week. I'll book 3 rooms let's say all under mine, brother or dad. I'll get credit for all three. To get the stay two separate nights you have to book at choicehotels.com or call it in. Their mobile site is so easy to book on tho. And you have to register for the promo.

Wow. That's some masterful cc whoring, beer. I'm in awe. Must be worth 10s of thousands to you a year.

It's really not worth that much. About 1.67 cents per southwest point. The 110k is worth about 1800. Companion pass worth that as well. So about 3600.

Sometimes I'll just take the gift card as I'm losing ev taking airlines points.

As let's say 8k choice is worth a 50$ gift card, so let's say they are worth 3/5th of a cent.

6k points choice worth 36.
1800 southwest worth 30.

Another thing I try to do in terms of being what everyone calls me a point nazi.

We buy a bit of diesel for our trucks. So I make them fill up at pilot on my rewards card with my southwest card.

Only reason I'm being a stickler about it now is because I'm get 10x points. So for every gallon about 10 cents.

Everytime I put 100 gallons in at 2.50 a gallon nets me 10 in pilot cash (still haven't figured out what to buy with it, they won't let me buy booze or tobacco). And 4.10 in southwest value.

I've figured this scheme as netted me about 567 in reward value. 4k gallons at 2.5.

Edit: these figures are year to date.

Not a bad racket for swiping two cards at a pump for something I was going to do anyway.

I'm really bored driving on a trip. So I'm figuring my EV on a trip I have to do anyway. All of which is a company expense and I'm getting paid. So this would be above my normal pay

Two hotels two separate stays nets me 8k on choice. I'll be converting that to airlines so I'm losing some EV. Worth about 40$.

200 gallons fuel nets me 20 pilot cash

1k spent on my southwest card rough estimate. Worth about 16.70 in southwest points.

Altogether 76.70 extra to go on this 3 day 2 night trip. Not much but every time you do it. It adds up.

Quote: beerseason

It's really not worth that much. About 1.67 cents per southwest point. The 110k is worth about 1800. Companion pass worth that as well. So about 3600.

Sometimes I'll just take the gift card as I'm losing ev taking airlines points.

As let's say 8k choice is worth a 50$ gift card, so let's say they are worth 3/5th of a cent.

6k points choice worth 36.
1800 southwest worth 30.

I was looking at a year and a half of free companion tickets, thinking you traveled with a crew a lot. Still a good value, though.

I'm definitely a different kind of credit card user - I go at it from a different angle.

I want $0 annual fee, non-negotiable, with cash-back. Cash only, no miles, no points.

The charges on the card, nearly everything we spend btw, are timed to the invoice date. The day before this date is the worst day to use the card. The day of invoice is the best time to use it, with most cards you get up to 6 weeks to pay. By having two cards, you should never have less than 4 weeks to pay, as you can change the invoice date for one to be 2 weeks after the other. Having this much time to pay is just a great way to take financial pressure off, even in times like these when money earns nothing in interest.

I got the chase sapphire preferred card about 6 months ago. No fee for the first year. Get 50,000 points when you spend $4,000 in the first 3 months. I pay my bills and buy everything with the card and pay the balance every month so I never pay any interest. I also added my wife as an authorized user and got an additional 5,000 points. So after I hit the 4k spend I had about 60,000 points. This is worth $600 cash from chase, or if you book travel through their ultimate rewards website the points are worth1.5x value. So for getting this card I got $900 in travel money to use on hotels, rental cars, or flights. I'll be closing this card after the 11 month and using the chase freedom card that has no annual fee. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want this deal...

Chase just came out with a new chase sapphire reserved card with that gives you 100,000 points after you spend $4k in 3 months. I would be jumping all over this but the minimum credit line is $10,000 and I'm not sure I would qualify for that since I already have over $10k in credit with the sapphire preferred and ultimate freedom cards. I'll probably call in to see if I can open a new card and transfer my available credit and close the 2 accounts I have open.

I never add my wife as AU. I am always concerned that will eliminate her from getting a new customer reward next year. Any idea if that happens?

The amex blue preferred card has been great. Didn't even have to wait for the $250 welcome thing. It showed up as statement credit as soon as I made the spending requirements. Loving the 6% back on groceries. Those ABC stores in vegas are coming up as groceries on my statement so I've been stuffing my face with chocolate covered macadamias. This card has made me a fat, jolly, german kid.