The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of whom?
Quote: DRichI think the pregnancy clause should only apply if it is an immaculate conception. Just say no to sex and jelly doughnuts.
It is surprising how many people think that the dogma of The Immaculate Conception is: That Mary gave birth to Jesus never having had sex.
This, of course is not correct. It is that Mary was born without original sin.
And why is that? According to many teachings we are all born into sin. What other "good reason" would there be for god to allow such horrible things to happen to innocent children who haven't even had time to sin.Quote: Greasyjohn
This, of course is not correct. It is that Mary was born without original sin.
I could never figure out why god wanted to trick everyone and make the bible so ambiguous and hard to understand or why there's so many different religions and teachings. God made math universal why didn't he do the same when it comes to religion and understanding it.
Quote: AxelWolfAnd why is that? According to many teachings we are all born into sin. What other "good reason" would there be for god to allow such horrible things to happen to innocent children who haven't even had time to sin.
This has been discussed with FrGamble. He says it is a Catholic trivia question even devout Catholics get wrong. I know my uncle's wife got it wrong, and she is about as devout as they come. You can always find FG at DT, if you don't believe I'm quoting him correctly.
I think the doctrine says that since the fall of Adam, sin has somehow been in our DNA and we're tainted by it upon birth. However, so that Jesus would be born sin free he had to be born from someone pure. So, Mary was born immaculately, without sin, so that she would be worthy to give birth to Jesus a generation later.
What I don't get is if Mary could be more immaculately, why not just apply this miracle to the birth of Jesus, so Mary could live a normal life?
Quote: WizardThis has been discussed with FrGamble. He says it is a Catholic trivia question even devout Catholics get wrong. I know my uncle's wife got it wrong, and she is about as devout as they come. You can always find FG at DT, if you don't believe I'm quoting him correctly.
I think the doctrine says that since the fall of Adam, sin has somehow been in our DNA and we're tainted by it upon birth. However, so that Jesus would be born sin free he had to be born from someone pure. So, Mary was born immaculately, without sin, so that she would be worthy to give birth to Jesus a generation later.
What I don't get is if Mary could be more immaculately, why not just apply this miracle to the birth of Jesus, so Mary could live a normal life?
Because the Holy Ghost had to come to her and impregnate her. She couldn't have sex with God as an impure woman, let alone biological raw material for the baby she conceived. And Jesus had to be born of woman, not created like Adam, for his eventual sacrifice to have meaning.
Quote: GWAESometimes I think the bible just may be true since no one in their right mind could come up with some of that stuff.
Must've been many good hallucinogenic drugs back then.
1.5 forums is enough for me.Quote: WizardThis has been discussed with FrGamble. He says it is a Catholic trivia question even devout Catholics get wrong. I know my uncle's wife got it wrong, and she is about as devout as they come. You can always find FG at DT, if you don't believe I'm quoting him correctly.
I think the doctrine says that since the fall of Adam, sin has somehow been in our DNA and we're tainted by it upon birth. However, so that Jesus would be born sin free he had to be born from someone pure. So, Mary was born immaculately, without sin, so that she would be worthy to give birth to Jesus a generation later.
What I don't get is if Mary could be more immaculately, why not just apply this miracle to the birth of Jesus, so Mary could live a normal life?
My point is/was since God can do ANYTHING according to the believers, there's no reason for such senseless horrible horrific things to happen in the world.
Ya ya I know God has his reasons and a grand plan and all. Somehow things like mass death, child starvation, torture, rape and murder is all part of that grand plan. The only logical conclusion for all the crazy crap that happens in this world is there's no God, no heaven or hell, we were not created by any God. Our existence is random.
Sorry there's far too many holes in the belief in God.
I don't think religion is all bad, I actually think it's a good thing and I'm glad many people believe in it.
Quote: beachbumbabsBecause the Holy Ghost had to come to her and impregnate her. She couldn't have sex with God as an impure woman, let alone biological raw material for the baby she conceived. And Jesus had to be born of woman, not created like Adam, for his eventual sacrifice to have meaning.
I'm not sure if you're joking or not but I never heard of Mary actually having intercourse with god. I guess I assumed that one of her eggs was miraculously fertilized without penetration, but never really thought about it for more than two seconds.
If this topic goes more than a few more posts I'll split it off.
Quote: AxelWolf1.5 forums is enough for me.
My point is/was since God can do ANYTHING according to the believers, there's no reason for such senseless horrible horrific things to happen in the world.
Ya ya I know God has his reasons and a grand plan and all. Somehow things like mass death, child starvation, torture, rape and murder is all part of that grand plan. The only logical conclusion for all the crazy crap that happens in this world is there's no God, no heaven or hell, we were not created by any God. Our existence is random.
Sorry there's far too many holes in the belief in God.
I don't think religion is all bad, I actually think it's a good thing and I'm glad many people believe in it.
Yeah I love the "grand plan". Just like when there is a mass shooting in a church. What kind of sedisdict person would have a master plan that involves killings in his place of worship where his people should feel safe. If there was such a god wouldn't a master plan of population control be better served with heart attacks and natural cause deaths?
Quote: WizardI'm not sure if you're joking or not but I never heard of Mary actually having intercourse with god. I guess I assumed that one of her eggs was miraculously fertilized without penetration, but never really thought about it for more than two seconds.
If this topic goes more than a few more posts I'll split it off.
Serious as can be. "Incarnate by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary ".
virgin birth myths previous to the Christian
one. That's why they used it in the Bible,
the really important characters in myth were
often by a virgin birth. Jesus did almost none
of things credited to him, didn't say 80%
of what was reported. It was all added later
by the history re-writers.
You seem angry my son, we can help with those feelings. The Bible was put together by men, men trying to interpret ancient and slightly more recent legend, written in languages that the compilers barely guessed how to interpret. Then it was sprinkled with magic dust while the choir sang some awful song. If you need help with your faith, we can hold your hand thru the struggle. For a mere 10% of your winnings, we can put you on 'the stairway to heaven'.Quote: IbeatyouracesEverything in the damn bible is a myth!
Disclaimer : You still have to climb the stairwell.
<edit> "everything in the damn bible is a myth" is a hilarious statement in and of itself ;-!
Damnation! I don't believe in Hell ,-)
Quote: djatcWhat's the line for Jesus coming back in this lifetime and how much can I bet on the no?
Sheesh. This is like betting on the Four Horsemen at Santa Anita.
dreamed up by the Church to trap people into having
something to be 'saved' from. It's a salesman's trick.
"The truth of the matter is, the doctrine of original sin is not Biblical. It had its origin in the writings of the so-called “church fathers” in the post-apostolic era. Such men as Tertullian (160-220) and Cyprian (200-258) first formulated the doctrine and it was later popularized by Augustine and John Calvin."
Mary was just another woman having kids with
her husband. Nobody special.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThere's a small church by my house. I walked by it earlier. The pastor drives a brand new white Cadillac. The patrons all had beaters. Region = the ultimate scam.
God gave him that Caddy, ask him.
Quote: GWAEYeah I love the "grand plan". Just like when there is a mass shooting in a church. What kind of sedisdict person would have a master plan that involves killings in his place of worship where his people should feel safe. If there was such a god wouldn't a master plan of population control be better served with heart attacks and natural cause deaths?
Ya know, as a non-believer my self, the while "God's Plan" thing is something I really wish I could cling to.
There's a certain level of comfort in believing that everything happens for a reason, and that all the bad or good things that happen to us are just a small part of a bigger plan.
For example, I have terrible fear and anxiety when it comes to cars and driving. I am absolutely terrified of being mangled in a car wreck, its to the extent where it's the only thing I can think about when I'm in a vehicle. I think part of this stems from being a Firefighter and seeing some pretty nasty wrecks. I wish I could bring myself to have faith that a higher power is in control, I think it would bring a lot of comfort to my life.
I never understood the hostility; it's not Catholics knocking on your door trying to 'sign you up.'
All kinds of people talk about tolerance, and "live and let live," then get their knickers in a bundle over the pope.
You don't believe it? So don't believe it.
Quote: gamerfreakYa know, as a non-believer my self, the while "God's Plan" thing is something I really wish I could cling to.
There's a certain level of comfort in believing that everything happens for a reason, and that all the bad or good things that happen to us are just a small part of a bigger plan.
For example, I have terrible fear and anxiety when it comes to cars and driving. I am absolutely terrified of being mangled in a car wreck, its to the extent where it's the only thing I can think about when I'm in a vehicle. I think part of this stems from being a Firefighter and seeing some pretty nasty wrecks. I wish I could bring myself to have faith that a higher power is in control, I think it would bring a lot of comfort to my life.
That's exactly what they sell. Reasons for the incomprehensible tragedy, answers to the eternal questions, comfort in relinquishing control, living without fearing death. Very attractive, and not to be dismissed lightly.
In many ways, life is easier when a higher authority has been given the responsibility for what happens. It can bring inner peace to simply not worry, to just enjoy the moment, to take risks without fear because it's in God's hands.
Personally, I have chosen what I think is the harder path of personal responsibility for the events of my life. But I don't fault others for accepting the comfort of faith without requiring evidence or logic to it. I just don't think it's something that needs to be advertised every time a person opens their mouth. And my scorn is reserved for those who judge or condemn others for not being of the same faith, sect, or church, especially publicly. So many religions rely on coercion and exclusion to bind their faithful. Disgusting.
Quote: AxelWolfSomehow things like mass death, child starvation, torture, rape and murder is all part of that grand plan.
I go to church twice a year, but even I've heard of Free Will.
Obviously I had too much beer at the Teepee tonight; this is stuff for DT, no?
Won $79 at craps, though!
Quote: IbeatyouracesThere's a small church by my house. I walked by it earlier. The pastor drives a brand new white Cadillac. The patrons all had beaters. Region = the ultimate scam.
I installed cable about it 10 years ago. I once in stalled into a priests house. He was getting the very best package available. Something like $300 a month. He also had a brand new set of pings sitting by the door and a nice car. A few months later I installed telephone into a convent. Everything in the house was white, no extras at all laying around. You can tell they were living at a bare minimum. At least they were living the part unlike the leader of the church.
Quote: CalderI'm not Catholic, but I thought the immaculate conception was the bestowal of grace upon Mary, erasing original sin. She had a mother and father just like anyone else.
Quote: WikipediaThe Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, was the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the womb of her mother, Saint Anne, free from original sin by virtue of the foreseen merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but God acted upon her soul (keeping her "immaculate") at the time of her conception.
The Immaculate Conception is commonly and mistakenly taken to mean the conception of Mary's son Jesus Christ in her own womb, and the Virgin Birth of Jesus. These are covered by the Doctrine of Incarnation, while the Immaculate Conception deals with the conception of Mary herself, not that of her son.
-- Source
Quote: CalderI go to church twice a year, but even I've heard of Free Will.
Obviously I had too much beer at the Teepee tonight; this is stuff for DT, no?
Won $79 at craps, though!
Clearly, God wanted you to win that $79. Just like he obviously wanted that guy who cracked up his car on I-5 last night to burn to death while still conscious. The Big Guy sure hands out goodies and kicks you in the butt, and you never know which it will be, do you? No wonder people spend so much time trying to devise the right rituals, chants, etc. to kiss his ass--sorry, His Ass--so that you roll a few points instead of crashing your car.
The RC teaching comes from St. Augustine who in this area did not have a classic or true teaching, suggesting in many ways that it is a sexual transmission of guilt and the inability to do good.
The problem with the teaching, of course, beyond the machinations of a man who regarding sex (Augustine) was all over the place, is that if Mary does not have ancestral sin (a better way to put it), then Christ cannot fully heal humanity. But he did inherit a body like ours, prone to sin and error, yet remained perfect. As in Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."
In many senses, the teaching also removes the necessity of Christ being born of a woman, and thus impacts a correct teaching on Christology. If Mary isn't like us (in some way, broken and needing healing), then Christ isn't like us --- see the problem? But the whole point is that as a human he defeats death and corruption, showing us what we were truly meant to be --- fulfilling our calling to be truly human --- which is to live in obedience and harmony with God, which defeats death (as Christ showed).
Quote: LandoIf Mary isn't like us (in some way, broken and needing healing), then Christ isn't like us --- see the problem? But the whole point is that as a human he defeats death and corruption, showing us what we were truly meant to be --- fulfilling our calling to be truly human --- which is to live in obedience and harmony with God, which defeats death (as Christ showed).
Am I the only one that reads this and
see's gobblygook nonsense? It's an
example of over thinking something
to the point where it no longer makes
any sense. There is no evidence god
even exists, what a waste of time to
invent all this drama.
Quote: WizardQuote: Wikipedia...The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by normal biological means...
I was raised Catholic and had learned that the Immaculate Conception had something to do with original sin and the conception of Mary, but I missed out on this biological detail probably because the priests didn't want to get too graphic in the explanation.
Regarding religion itself, I think we mostly hope that our being religious influences God to protect our loved ones. Remember one of the most sincere oaths is, "I swear on my kids' lives."
Quote: AxelWolfEven though I don't believe. I still wouldn't sell my soul like Mike did.
Everything has a price. For the right price I would sell my soul and my make believe soul.
My imaginary deity can beat up your imaginary deity!
Quote: AxelWolfEven though I don't believe. I still wouldn't sell my soul like Mike did.
I never sold my soul, but I bought two of them from other forum members.
Quote: GWAEEverything has a price. For the right price I would sell my soul and my make believe soul.
How does $20 sound?
Quote: WizardHow does $20 sound?
hmmmm, probably a little low.
Edited to add winky/smiley. I think even my soul should be worth more than $20!
Wiz may be a cheap SOB ;-)
What is the going resale price on souls anyway, you know, in the secondary market?
Quote: EvenBobAm I the only one that reads this and
see's gobblygook nonsense? It's an
example of over thinking something
to the point where it no longer makes
any sense. There is no evidence god
even exists, what a waste of time to
invent all this drama.
Why are you clicking on a thread about theology if you have already decided you aren't going to use your brain regarding the issue?
In actuality, the discussion is regarding the coherence of a teaching. Why is that important? If something is shown to be incoherent, it shows too things potentially: falsehood and the truth.
That's pretty important, since the point of religion or revelation is "What is the Truth"? or "What is reality"?
Otherwise, Bob, you're just a sexually transmitted disease with 100% mortality.
I know that you aren't, because there is a part of you that is immortal. And that's what life's all about.
Cheers.
