Hole carding - interesting read
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe part about tipping off a dealer and killing the game due to competition is a rip off from Grosjean. I don't believe her "story." I think it's a compilation of other AP's stories.
It's the same game Grosjean talks about,she was part of his crew.
Quote: HunterhillIt's the same game Grosjean talks about, she was part of his crew.
If that's the case, then it makes sense.
the question i want to ask is, just how do you do that "hole carding" thing? is the card dealt from a hand held deck? i just don't see how someone can hole-card if the card is slid out from a shoe.
Quote: andysifif it is not appropriate to ask or answer openly in a forum then just ignore it.
the question i want to ask is, just how do you do that "hole carding" thing? is the card dealt from a hand held deck? i just don't see how someone can hole-card if the card is slid out from a shoe.
Generally hole carding is done on hand-dealt games (with some exceptions). In fact if you walk through a place like Aria, you'll notice a few double deck tables with very small shoes. These used to be hand dealt, but they put the 2 deck shoes in specifically to deal with hole carding issues. This was a very visible white flag from a top-tier property announcing that even they couldn't get hole carding under control. However, hole carding isn't limited to blackjack. There are some games that are not ever dealt from a shoe that have hole carding vulnerabilities as well.
When people talk about "advanced" AP techniques (those that aren't actually cheating), they are generally referring to those involving hole carding (often in combination with other commonly known things). IMO there really isn't much new under the sun in the AP world.
There was once a dealer at Circus Circus about 15 years ago at a single-deck table that I remember. He would offer the deck to be cut fully exposing the bottom card. If there were an ace on the bottom and you're sitting in seat three at a five-player game, if offered the cut, you could cut 10 cards from the bottom to receive the ace (or cut 13 cards to cut a small card to the dealer). I sometimes practice cutting a set amount of cards from the bottom of the deck in preparation for this rare event.
But I have had the dealer unintentionally fully exposed their hole card on five occasions.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou guys don't scout hard enough. But that can be expected from card counters.
You're right, and I don't spend my time at the beach with a medal detector looking for a diamond ring either.
Same thing with wonging, I may wong out occasionally, but I don't wong in. I'm not going to spend 15 minutes standing behind a blackjack game waiting for a +2 TC so I can make $1.
I also gave up collecting my bottles and recyclables. The redemption centers are dirty and unpleasant. Loading the stuff up and standing in line is not worth the $12.
Quote: GreasyjohnYou're right, and I don't spend my time at the beach with a medal detector looking for a diamond ring either.
Same thing with wonging, I may wong out occasionally, but I don't wong in. I'm not going to spend 15 minutes standing behind a blackjack game waiting for a +2% TC so I can make $1.
True, but while you're seated, playing, and waiting for that good count, you're losing money. ;-)
Hole carders keep detailed lists of dealers, locations, shifts they work, heat, etc. Some people like the hunt.
Quote: IbeatyouracesTrue, but while you're seated, playing, and waiting for that good count, you're losing money. ;-)
Hole carders keep detailed lists of dealers, locations, shifts they work, heat, etc. Some people like the hunt.
When you say some people like the hunt... that I understand. And it would be a lot of fun standing on a 15 in a nuetral count when the dealer has a 5 down-card that you hole carded and a 10 up-card.
Quote: GreasyjohnWhen you say some people like the hunt... that I understand. It would be a lot of fun standing on a 15 in a nuetral count when the dealer has a 5 down-card that you hole carded and a 10 up-card.
Or doubling 2, 3 vs 10 up. That gets some looks!
P.S. If you're doing this play, either you're losing and desperate to get even or you're greedy but will soon be figured out ;-)
Quote: IbeatyouracesOr doubling 2, 3 vs 10 up. That gets some looks!
P.S. If you're doing this play, either you're losing and desperate to get even or you're greedy but will soon be figured out ;-)
Yes. That's why I did't use standing on 12 in my example. Restraint = longevity.
Quote: GreasyjohnYes. That's why I did't use standing on 12 in my example. Restraint = longevity.
Surrender HC games are great!
We have spoken about this woman on the air --- on more than one occasion --- and are at least looking into having her on the show. She has a LOT of stories that didn't make the cut for this article.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHole carders keep detailed lists of dealers, locations, shifts they work, heat, etc. Some people like the hunt.
I keep a small list (stable) of horses that are easy to read. I make adjustments to the list when needed. It's just a hobby because I am not trying to make a living off it. If I had the time left in my life I could see doing it on a full time basis. I could see getting obsessed with it. I wish I were 20 years old again. I'd live at the track.
Like you said, the hunt is the fun part.
Are you comparing HC'ing with bottle cap collecting?Quote: GreasyjohnYou're right, and I don't spend my time at the beach with a medal detector looking for a diamond ring either.
Same thing with wonging, I may wong out occasionally, but I don't wong in. I'm not going to spend 15 minutes standing behind a blackjack game waiting for a +2 TC so I can make $1.
I also gave up collecting my bottles and recyclables. The redemption centers are dirty and unpleasant. Loading the stuff up and standing in line is not worth the $12.
Knowing where and how to look is key. Just because you have been counting for a million years and haven't found a HC situation doesn't mean it's not common. It's not some rare diamond in the rough situation. It would be like some basic strategy BJ player in the 90's telling you I haven't ever found a good card counting game and I have been playing BS BJ for years.
It's like poker, If you know what you're doing and you're willing to put the time and effort learning how to play and looking for good games and devoting lots of time and resources there's big money in it, however there could be some guy that's been playing low limit poker for 30 years and he's losing a little bit because he's playing day shift at station casinos every day with all the old time tight ass rocks. Meanwhile some savvy kid is over playing some NL or tournament game on the strip killing it.
One must think beyond blackjack.
Most people doing it, are not talking about it, because it's valuable.
Quote: AxelWolfAre you comparing HC'ing with bottle cap collecting?
Knowing where and how to look is key. Just because you have been counting for a million years and haven't found a HC situation doesn't mean it's not common. It's not some rare diamond in the rough situation. It would be like some basic strategy BJ player in the 90's telling you I haven't ever found a good card counting game and I have been playing BS BJ for years.
It's like poker, If you know what you're doing and you're willing to put the time and effort learning how to play and looking for good games and devoting lots of time and resources there's big money in it, however there could be some guy that's been playing low limit poker for 30 years and he's losing a little bit because he's playing day shift at station casinos every day with all the old time tight ass rocks. Meanwhile some savvy kid is over playing some NL or tournament game on the strip killing it.
One must think beyond blackjack.
Most people doing it, are not talking about it, because it's valuable.
You're fkg smart. I don't know who you are in real life but you are a good poster. I see you've only been on this board for four years. I wonder if the group appreciates your knowledge. Probably the bulk of them do. Whoever you are, you have DEFINITELY been around the block a few times.
By the way, your analogy about the old poker players, the old bumps-on-a-log, is so accurate. I want to add, it is even more true, probably, with the old horse players. No imagination, doing the same mistakes and losing, not learning anything new, since Man O War was a 3-year old.
Quote: bobbartopYou're fkg smart. I don't know who you are in real life but you are a good poster. I see you've only been on this board for four years. I wonder if the group appreciates your knowledge. Probably the bulk of them do. Whoever you are, you have DEFINITELY been around the block a few times.
Great appreciation for KewlJ!
Quote: DeMangoGreat appreciation for KewlJ!
Who is Kewlj? I'm new here, never heard of Kewlj.
Quote: bobbartopWho is Kewlj? I'm new here, never heard of Kewlj.
Probably the biggest loss via forum banishment ever.
Quote: tringlomaneProbably the biggest loss via forum banishment ever.
Oh really? Smart guy? Sorry I missed him. What was his crime?
Maybe I can figure out later how to find his posts and answer my own question.
Did they backroom him?
Quote: billryanIs the LVHCM still around?
Never mind. I just got to the point of that long thread where Wiz reinstated you because it was an AOL ip address used by many people. Now I have to apologize.
Quote:Knowing where and how to look is key.
Indiana. It's absolutely infested with card spooks. Probably more there than just about any other location. The casinos are ripe, but beware, the gaming officials are absolute idiots and may try and tell you that your eyes and brain are an illegal cheating device.
Quote: mcallister3200VERY recently two AP's had 40k stolen by law enforcement AND were charged with felony cheating at gaming while legitimately hole carding in Indiana. Beware.
As usual, the real criminals hide behind a badge, robe, suit and tie, etc.
Honestly, I have no sympathy for these cops that have been "taken out."
Quote: bobbartopOh really? Smart guy? Sorry I missed him. What was his crime?
Maybe I can figure out later how to find his posts and answer my own question.
Well, I just finished reading a 28 page thread about this which ended when the thread was closed by Wizard. I think it took me about an hour and a half, I'm a slow reader. I didn't really have anything else to do. Good thing, it made me sleepy. Good night.
Quote:VERY recently two AP's had 40k stolen by law enforcement AND were charged with felony cheating at gaming while legitimately hole carding in Indiana. Beware.
The gaming buffoons may try to get prosecutors to charge them, but I'd be shocked to see the prosecutor actually follow their advice.
A casino doesn't like an AP playing, so they call in the police. The police come in and seize the players money, charging the money with a crime or of having possibly been involved with a past/future crime, while letting the player go free.
Since many police departments are now corrupt, self serving, and greedy, I see it as a possibility.
Quote: KeyserThe gaming buffoons may try to get prosecutors to charge them, but I'd be shocked to see the prosecutor actually follow their advice.
It's already happened. Last year they tried to charge two players with a felony.The state lost their case.
But as McAllister mentioned another state is trying again.
Quote: pingclassicSounds look at great AP play to me, because if they shook me down for allegedly hole carding and humiliated me in the middle of the entire casino I would sue the s+$*! Out of them!
Have you ever sued someone? I have. I won. You know how much I collected? $0. It's easy to sue and win, collecting is the hard part. Big companies like this will drag it out for years.
In this world, not every wrong is righted. These asset seizures are criminal. About a year ago, there was a front page story in the Washington Post talking about this. A pastor carrying $150k in cash to build a new church. Immigrants who are targeted because they have no recourse. This is the United States this is happening in. All this hidden behind a war on drugs. I guess this case is a little different because they seized the money when they were accused of cheating.
Quote: bobbartop...Maybe I can figure out later how to find his posts and answer my own question...
Here's a link for kewlj's posts.
Quote: ChesterDogHere's a link for kewlj's posts.
Thank you. I would not have figured that out on my own. Looks like a lot of reading. This should be fun. Thanks again.
