100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
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June 22nd, 2016 at 12:45:15 PM permalink
from one of Mission's articles:
http://wizardofvegas.com/articles/Does-advantage-player-equal-addict/
I was going do quick reply in the comments in that article but it turned out lengthy so I I'm creating a thread for it.


My stoty:
I love playing craps (hence my user name).

I chose craps because it has the lowest HE of any casino game if you don't count cards.
I cut my teeth during the old days of Casino Royale with $3 flat/100x odds and PUT bets. Heck, I was there on xmas day when it was $1 flat/100x odds!

Craps also has tons of action even if all you're going to Passline/Come bets. I found blackjack too mechanical and boring.
if dealer has X card facing up, follow the basic strategy chart and do this.
and counting cards seemed like too much work to me for a game that I don't find that interesting.

then I discovered vulturing.
You hit it on this nose in the article. +EV INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

for me, it's not about the amount of $ I win.
I usually bring $3k to play craps ($ i can easily afford to lose).
I won a little less than that lifetime vulturing and I've been doing it for 3 years.

it's about the enjoyment of knowing I will probably win w/o much effort at a game I consider fun.
even if that win is +$5.
basically, Getting paid to be entertained.


But am I carrying it too far now?
i used to goto the casino to play craps or poker, and while I'm there, i'll vulture.
now im finding that i goto the casino just to vulture.

Example #1:
i now have a job where one of the client locations is near my local casino.
it'll add 40min round trip to my drive home. (20min each way)
it takes ~1hr to check all the machines which allows me to miss rush hour.
i don't do anything at home anyway after work... just mindlessly surf TV/web. (rationalizing it?)

2) i sometimes drive to see family or friends during extended weekends where Mon is a federal holiday. (i don't work Fri)
i now allocate a couple more hrs to that drive by leaving earlier to stop by multiple casinos near my route to vulture.
and i'll stop by those same casinos on my way home.


edit:
Never thought of myself as an addict till i read that article.
Conditional Addict?
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Jun 22, 2016
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Romes
Romes
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June 22nd, 2016 at 1:02:51 PM permalink
You enjoy vulturing because like you said, you're essentially getting paid to be entertained. At some level "most" AP's enjoy playing casino games. After all, like any other job, you couldn't do it too long if you hated it.

If you think you have a problem, then just stop going. You know the machines and mults will be there some other time. Take some time off to do something else, or nothing at all. If you feel anxious like you HAVE to go, then you might be in the early stages of addiction and could simply mediate by sharing with your wife and taking some more time off until your anxiety lessens. If you have no problem taking time off, then you're not addicted, but you simply just enjoy the game enjoy it that much more knowing you're +EV on it.

There's been times when I go to the casino and it feels like work, and there's times where I take time off and then I'm looking forward to getting some action in... but for me it mostly centers around the fact that I'm making $X/hour at my +EV plays, not the fact that I feel I "have" to go.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Mission146
Mission146
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June 22nd, 2016 at 1:03:00 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



But am I carrying it too far now?
i used to goto the casino to play craps or poker, and while I'm there, i'll vulture.
now im finding that i goto the casino just to vulture.

Example #1:
i now have a job where one of the client locations is near my local casino.
it'll add 40min round trip to my drive home. (20min each way)
it takes ~1hr to check all the machines which allows me to miss rush hour.
i don't do anything at home anyway after work... just mindlessly surf TV/web. (rationalizing it?)

2) i sometimes drive to see family or friends during extended weekends where Mon is a federal holiday. (i don't work Fri)
i now allocate a couple more hrs to that drive by leaving earlier to stop by multiple casinos near my route to vulture.
and i'll stop by those same casinos on my way home.



First of all, as always, thanks for reading my Articles!

With respect to the way you like to check for multipliers, I would say it's entirely up to you to determine whether or not you are taking it too far and whether or not it is worth it. I would say that example one is not taking it too far because you are vulturing, it would seem, largely to avoid something that you would actually rather not be doing, which is dealing with rush hour traffic.

For the second one, it really depends on whether you are doing it for fun or for profitability. For example, I'll generally only go somewhere to vulture if I have largely determined that it is worth my time on an Expected Value basis, so in that sense, if I am relatively close to a particular casino, (based on what I have determined to be the EV per hour spent on stopping...and it is usually less than an hour total even including the driving) then I will make a stop and check the machines. At the same time, if I am not in that general area, in fact, I would say if it would take me an hour or more total, then I would not go to this particular casino to vulture because the EV that I tend to find there probably averages $15-$20 per visit.

There's another casino in the general area that I would spend more time getting to in order to vulture, but unfortunately, I am persona non grata at that casino. I can't speak for now as I have not been there in over a year, but at the time I was going, $40/visit in EV was probably on the low end.
Vultures can't be choosers.
TomG
TomG
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June 22nd, 2016 at 4:54:35 PM permalink
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/20-questions

Still the best way to check for addiction by far
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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June 22nd, 2016 at 5:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/20-questions

Still the best way to check for addiction by far

I have not pulled up the 20 questions, I'm scared to pull them up. I have ducked under the fridge and put one finger in each ear. If the sun comes up tomorrow I might decide to come out. I'm like a groundhog predicting spring or continued winter, and ongoing, possibly forever, which is alot like eternity, which brings that darned infinity question up again. Sigh.

Dis Jhit too hard for the little feathered ones.....

<edit, once again> looking at recent threads I have, once again, not to be confused with once dear, once again I read too little and post too much. WTF did you expect from the village idiot?. Sorry, vented a little. Look for me same place,same time, 35 weeks from today. Or perhaps tomorrow.....
Paddle hard, paddle safe, paddle for fun! 2F
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
100xOdds
100xOdds
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June 22nd, 2016 at 6:58:40 PM permalink
Romes,
I don't feel anxious and itching to go like I did with craps and countless betting strategies and pressing strategies centering around passline/come and placing the 6&8.

And vulturing never feels like work to me.
Doing DiaD took 8hrs and that felt like work


Mission,
Rush hr traffic only adds 15min whereas vulturing is adding 40min.

As for having a certain amount of +ev to travel over an hr, im gambling that the casinos I goto on my road trip will have multipliers available. It might have been vultured already by the time I get there.
And 30min travel wasted. 3 blank casinos and 1 1/2 hrs wasted.
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Jun 22, 2016
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:11:17 PM permalink
IMO a lot of successful AP's I've met have a level of obsession that I don't know makes it easy to have the healthiest lifestyle, but I don't think it's an addiction. Not much different than the level of obsession of other types of entrepreneurs.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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June 22nd, 2016 at 7:25:07 PM permalink
1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling? I only lose time from work when I'm not gambling.
2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy? Only if I get home and the house isn't clean.
3. Did gambling affect your reputation? Hell ya!!
4. Have you ever felt remorse after gambling? Only because I had to leave the casino.
5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties? Why else would you gamble?
6. Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency? Only if they ran out of Captain.
7. After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses? Of course..... that progressive meter is still up.Time's a-wastin' and you might not get a seat again
8. After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more? Well ya, that sh*it is worth $300 an HR, why the hell wouldn't I want to return?
9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone? Everyone knows you need save $5 in bus fare and haircut money.
10. Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling? "BORROW"....Everyone know if you loan a gambler money it's a gift.
11. Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling. Does my sole count? gambling IS a SIN, no matter what Mike says.
12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures? Do i look like Kentry? anyways if you shouldn't use gambling money for normal expenditures you shouldn't use your gambling money for normal expenditures that's why it's called gambling money.
13. Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of yourself or your family? According to them or me?
14. Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned? does playing 30 hours++ count?
15. Have you ever gambled to escape worry, trouble, boredom, loneliness, grief or loss?
16. Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling? Does pimpin count?
17. Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? Hell NO.....I fall asleep just fine while gambling.
18. Do arguments, disappointments or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble? Only when my friend's are unlucky bastards and can't friggin hit anything. If you want something done right.....
19. Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling? You're supposed to celebrate in strip clubs especially if you hit something big.
20. Have you ever considered self-destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling? Only if someone took my bus fare and stole my crack.

*Sorry if that's offencive to anyone here that truly has a gambling addiction. They shouldn't be on this forum.

I'm 100% confident I don't have an addiction. 90% of the time if given the choice to play or not play I would much rather be at home or wherever. Sure some stuff is fun to play, especially knowing you have the best of it, and it's super juicy, who wouldn't want to play a fun slot with a 150% edge or something? I'm sure people make music, movies, video games or whatever go home and do them things for fun.

Even some -EV gambling can be fun. I see no difference between thant than playing a video game, playing for some overpriced wine, having a Cuban cigar, perhaps some pot, paying for movies, bowling, etc etc. Just because a musician goes home and plays music, artist makes art for himself or another for free, carpenter works on his own house, mathematician does math for fun, or whatever the case that doesn't mean they are addicted. Don't professional sports players play their sport and other sports for fun?

Are you gambling more than you can really afford? IE. Do you are oftentimes playing -EV stuff and you dont really have the money to do so, then I would say you have a problem. If you have kids and little or no money, if you borrow money occasionally from people for your bills or whatever, YOU SHOULDN'T BE GAMBLING AT ALL (Unless you're playing something that's + EV that has no chance of losing)

I dont know one AP that hasn't chased or don't chase sometimes. Some people just know when to say that's enough, this is retarded, I lost my $100,$200 $300 or whatever you personally can afford. That doesn't mean they're addicted or have a problem. Some people do it far too often and lose far too much. You know who they are, they never have much money. They are always on loan to others. They go out of their way to gamble. If you leave your house and go out of your way just to play -EV stuff, you might have a problem. If you're willing to drive 4 hours for a $50 match play or whatever, you might have a problem.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GWAE
GWAE
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June 23rd, 2016 at 4:12:36 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

.... Are you gambling more than you can really afford? IE. Do you are oftentimes playing -EV stuff and you dont really have the money to do so, then I would say you have a problem. If you have kids and little or no money, if you borrow money occasionally from people for your bills or whatever, YOU SHOULDN'T BE GAMBLING AT ALL (Unless you're playing something that's + EV that has no chance of losing)
.



That was a funny post axel. It is weird how different casinos have different clientele. While playing craps last week there was a guy just kinda hanging on the rail with about 80 in chips. He was there all night and this was 6am. Everytime one of "his" numbers would roll he would get frustrated. Dealer mentioned that you can't win if you don't play it. He got real quiet and said, "I am trying to figure out my game plan to turn $80 into $1200. I just lost my rent money and can't go home to my wife with out it." I don't think you need 20 questions to figure out this guy probably has a problem. It made me sad.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
100xOdds
100xOdds
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June 23rd, 2016 at 11:54:26 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

IMO a lot of successful AP's I've met have a level of obsession that I don't know makes it easy to have the healthiest lifestyle, but I don't think it's an addiction. Not much different than the level of obsession of other types of entrepreneurs.


hm.. when does obsession cross over into addiction?

ie:
when the 1st casino opened near me, I spent many, MANY hrs with different betting/pressing strategies on craps and couldn't wait to get back on the table to try it.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)

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